So I am playing / streaming on iCCup and I stumbled upon an actual bot playing games on iCCup... I won but I think it's still pretty amazing that there is bot's playing games on iccup... he is D- rank :-P
as you can see in the picture it's obviously a bot, it's simply impossible to have 431 apm with 0% redundancy :-P... still this is so frickin awesome how far bw has come... AI beating people on iccup with a 30% ratio ^^
EDIT : also you can see in the replay that this is obviously a bot, because a human couldnt type this fast, and it says the DWAIIP or something.
edit 2 : replays [url blocked]
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yea i played it 3 times to make sure it was a bot the 2nd time then to see how it played the 3rd time
Interesting that the programmers (that's two m's), chose to go with protoss. What with the insane potential of zerg at unlimited apm. Perfect muta micro anyone? Also being fielded on multiple maps as opposed to just the one. Interesting. Got the replay saved?
this is actually bad for esports. a lot of games are dying because the servers are filled with bots, so its boring for real people and they leave(mostly first person shooters from what i know)
On June 16 2011 11:36 xarthaz wrote: this is actually bad for esports. a lot of games are dying because the servers are filled with bots, so its boring for real people and they leave(mostly first person shooters from what i know)
yeah, it was bad for chess too. not like millions of people paid attention when chess players started playing computers. oh wait.....
On June 16 2011 11:36 xarthaz wrote: this is actually bad for esports. a lot of games are dying because the servers are filled with bots, so its boring for real people and they leave(mostly first person shooters from what i know)
yeah, it was bad for chess too. not like millions of people paid attention when chess players started playing computers. oh wait.....
the quake series have been plagued by bots for a long time
On June 16 2011 11:36 xarthaz wrote: this is actually bad for esports. a lot of games are dying because the servers are filled with bots, so its boring for real people and they leave(mostly first person shooters from what i know)
I think you are over exaggerating... For me this looks more like someone's little experiment, rather than an attempt to become top, because c'mon, what kind of a bot would possibly be able to win good players? You would need a computer size of Jupiter to calculate all the possible variables in the game in a small amount of time And the answer is not 42
On June 16 2011 11:36 xarthaz wrote: this is actually bad for esports. a lot of games are dying because the servers are filled with bots, so its boring for real people and they leave(mostly first person shooters from what i know)
yeah, it was bad for chess too. not like millions of people paid attention when chess players started playing computers. oh wait.....
the quake series have been plagued by bots for a long time
dont play quake, so i cant comment. i would love to see a computer actually play competitively in sc: flash or jaedong vs. computer = epic~!
Sup Telecom! :D Oh and yeah they have bots that play low level I heard on SC2 as well, crazy how that stuff works at all I guess they just mess with the AI built into the vs computer thing you can do. Reminds me of Deep Blue but it just sucks instead of being a total baller. lol
On June 16 2011 11:36 xarthaz wrote: this is actually bad for esports. a lot of games are dying because the servers are filled with bots, so its boring for real people and they leave(mostly first person shooters from what i know)
yeah, it was bad for chess too. not like millions of people paid attention when chess players started playing computers. oh wait.....
the quake series have been plagued by bots for a long time
I'm not sure if this is positive or negative, but bots aren't anywhere near the level to where they can compete with really solid players yet. I don't think there are going to be any issues.
On June 16 2011 11:36 xarthaz wrote: this is actually bad for esports. a lot of games are dying because the servers are filled with bots, so its boring for real people and they leave(mostly first person shooters from what i know)
I think you are over exaggerating... For me this looks more like someone's little experiment, rather than an attempt to become top, because c'mon, what kind of a bot would possibly be able to win good players? You would need a computer size of Jupiter to calculate all the possible variables in the game in a small amount of time And the answer is not 42
you dont understand. it is not the competitive performance of bots that is the issue. it is bot filled games crowding the entire game lobby that is.
On June 16 2011 11:36 xarthaz wrote: this is actually bad for esports. a lot of games are dying because the servers are filled with bots, so its boring for real people and they leave(mostly first person shooters from what i know)
I think you are over exaggerating... For me this looks more like someone's little experiment, rather than an attempt to become top, because c'mon, what kind of a bot would possibly be able to win good players? You would need a computer size of Jupiter to calculate all the possible variables in the game in a small amount of time And the answer is not 42
you dont understand. it is not the competitive performance of bots that is the issue. it is bot filled games crowding the entire game lobby that is.
that would suck. but it will get you up to A+ faster on iccup. ;-)
On June 16 2011 11:36 xarthaz wrote: this is actually bad for esports. a lot of games are dying because the servers are filled with bots, so its boring for real people and they leave(mostly first person shooters from what i know)
What are you talking about? A bot will never reached C-+ Show Spoiler +
Until the year 3000 or more xD
BW is a very complicated game and I doubt the bot could equal to Jaedong or Flash
In FPS its pretty much teach the bot to aim perfectly and go to a direction.
I've actually seen a bot on battle.net for wc3 made by a Purdue student (sadly I forgot the account name). It was like 30% win rate, but it is entertaining to see that it exists. It only made a death knight and ghouls and would attack you incessantly.
On June 16 2011 11:36 xarthaz wrote: this is actually bad for esports. a lot of games are dying because the servers are filled with bots, so its boring for real people and they leave(mostly first person shooters from what i know)
What are you talking about? A bot will never reached C-+ Show Spoiler +
Until the year 3000 or more xD
BW is a very complicated game and I doubt the bot could equal to Jaedong or Flash
In FPS its pretty much teach the bot to aim perfectly and go to a direction.
Humans will never fly. There are far more difficult and complicated problems that have been solved. In my mind the only question is: Will enough people put enough effort into it? That's difficult to say, but I believe that it is perfectly possible.
On June 16 2011 11:36 xarthaz wrote: this is actually bad for esports. a lot of games are dying because the servers are filled with bots, so its boring for real people and they leave(mostly first person shooters from what i know)
yeah, it was bad for chess too. not like millions of people paid attention when chess players started playing computers. oh wait.....
Actually, "bots" (i.e chess engines) were terrible for chess. They are the reason why there are no big online tournaments.
On June 16 2011 14:37 flamewheel wrote: I'm kind of scared that the bot is named Skynet.
yeah agreed, it is kind of frightening if just for the name.
Unfortunately it doesn't seem very smart (in one of the games vs GGzerG poor Skynet had nothing but sairs and hopelessly hovered them over ling/hydra trying desperately to make something happen).
Well as long as the bots have a dedicated channel, then they shouldn't be intrusive and will be non-existent should you care not to ever have to play one. The problem of course is when the slimy sales pitch spamming opportunist show up or the bored teenager gets a hold of one. That's when things go south fast.
One of the biggest obstacles preventing ppl from playing against these BWAPI bots, has been that one needed to compile code + setup games and basically jump through a bunch of hoops. With an online bot, interested players wishing to experience the AI firsthand can just jump online without any of the aforementioned hassles. But I tend to agree "bots" shouldn't be part of the online multiplayer community other than special events etc.
A sick feature of these bots would be to autosave/autoindex replays to a directory on the host comp to then autoupload to an online web page! I'd definitely be into checking out some of the wins it pulled off!
In CS a bot can get an easy win by moving around a map and having auto-aim so it can insta-gib everyone with speed of light reflexes. It is impossible for a human to beat this.
A chess bot can get an easy win by mining a strategy book and thinking 1,000,000 moves ahead. A chess bot will also has to wait a long time to make a decision if it wants to beat a good player, Starcraft bots don't have this, its not allowed to pause the game to figure out the next best move. Just add more CPU time or processing power and it can beat the best chess player in the world.
Starcraft is a game of limited information and infinite skill, even if it somehow determines the perfect counter it still needs perfect execution, and if it can do all that it still looks really awesome. You can't instagib another player like in CS, and strategies can't be predefined with perfect execution (because its not turn-based) like in Chess.
No matter how much processing power or information the computer has, the human player still has a good chance of winning. The human brain gives a much bigger advantage in SC than it does in the other 2 games, that's why its fun and awesome.
It's a 4-month old article so I'm assuming a good number of people have already read it, but just in case you haven't there it is. I wonder if they ported that thing (if it's even possible) to iCCup how it would do.
It's a 4-month old article so I'm assuming a good number of people have already read it, but just in case you haven't there it is. I wonder if they ported that thing (if it's even possible) to iCCup how it would do.
We thought about putting it online but there are some latency issues where mutalisk would glitch a little. Eh... we'll put something up eventually hopefully.
It's a 4-month old article so I'm assuming a good number of people have already read it, but just in case you haven't there it is. I wonder if they ported that thing (if it's even possible) to iCCup how it would do.
On June 16 2011 15:58 sluggaslamoo wrote: Chess / FPS bots and RTS bots are different.
In CS a bot can get an easy win by moving around a map and having auto-aim so it can insta-gib everyone with speed of light reflexes. It is impossible for a human to beat this.
A chess bot can get an easy win by mining a strategy book and thinking 1,000,000 moves ahead. A chess bot will also has to wait a long time to make a decision if it wants to beat a good player, Starcraft bots don't have this, its not allowed to pause the game to figure out the next best move. Just add more CPU time or processing power and it can beat the best chess player in the world.
Starcraft is a game of limited information and infinite skill, even if it somehow determines the perfect counter it still needs perfect execution, and if it can do all that it still looks really awesome. You can't instagib another player like in CS, and strategies can't be predefined with perfect execution (because its not turn-based) like in Chess.
No matter how much processing power or information the computer has, the human player still has a good chance of winning. The human brain gives a much bigger advantage in SC than it does in the other 2 games, that's why its fun and awesome.
Make no mistake, FPS bots can be hard to make competitive to humans, despite having 100% accuracy with hitscan weapons. It is only the fact that counter-strike has very little map control and power up control and movement skill involved that bots are hard to defeat.
I played EISBOT or EIBOT don't remember exactly, he'd do a 2 gate goon rush PvZ. The goon micro was actually pretty scary; simultanously attack-retreat micro from each individual goon. However, I could trick them to attack my sunkens, which they still suck at. From there it was still pretty tight, but it refused to make high templar, so my hydraling force iventually crushed his goon/zealot/obs force.
I don't see these kinds of bots being able to reach higher levels (D+ or higher). The issue is that you can hide tech or just lure them into cannons/sunkens/bunkers and watch the pain ensue.
The difference between FPS bots and RTS bots is that in an RTS game the amount of thoughts and actions required is much higher, and the game is less limited. So the human player can do many other things to exploit/just beat the bot without too much pain.
Chess is a different story due to the restricted nature of the game, and the fact that each player has 100% vision of the game. The RTS bot still cannot know where your base in, or your units, so it still has to guess, and can't calculate out each move like Chess.
i cant believe even ESPORTS found its way to this thread
BWAI projects are simply amazing. the fact someone could make an AI actually win games on iccup is amazing. and hey, even a bot like this is great for newbs to start to play against, a constant source of games minus the abusive playstyle of higher tier players.
I don't see these kinds of bots being able to reach higher levels (D+ or higher). The issue is that you can hide tech or just lure them into cannons/sunkens/bunkers and watch the pain ensue.
check it's last season stats, D+ every season lol :-P
On June 16 2011 15:58 sluggaslamoo wrote: A chess bot can get an easy win by mining a strategy book and thinking 1,000,000 moves ahead. A chess bot will also has to wait a long time to make a decision if it wants to beat a good player, Starcraft bots don't have this, its not allowed to pause the game to figure out the next best move. Just add more CPU time or processing power and it can beat the best chess player in the world.
Actually chess bots don't use a strategy book except for the first few moves, they learn for themselves by analyzing grandmaster play and determining what things are valuable in a position, then evaluating the possible future positions using that knowledge.
On June 18 2011 04:17 Antisocialmunky wrote: Its still pretty impressive.
Considering Go AI plays at 5 Dan which seems to be upper end of the amateur spectrum, D- is pretty good if C is considered decent.
Wow. That's actually pretty impressive. I thought they were still at 2 - 3 Dan, but I just looked it up and apparently a computer go program called Zen19D reached 5 Dan on KGS. Although I'm under the impression that 5D on KGS isn't necessarily as good as 5D 'generally,' because of some ranking inflation on KGS.
Do you know if there have been any recent professional vs computer games without a handicap? I know computers have won with handicaps (usually 7 - 9 stones) against 5 - 9P, but obviously playing with a handicap and playing at even is a very different experience. I know they obviously can't win yet, but I'd at least be interested in seeing if they're any closer than they were.
So basicily what you say is that for the first time there is an official bot on ICCUP who reach D+ so you were saying that Flash were not a bot ? come on ^^ More seriously you also have to play yourself like a bot to loose vs this.
I have played a few games against some different named D- bots that host the map Destiny, go random and when the game starts they announce their race. They then cheese you, such as building bunkers in your base, 4pool, or cannon rush. Fail and say gg.
If you mention the word bot they respond with no or my English not very good etc.
On June 18 2011 10:28 GaurdKnight wrote: I have played a few games against some different named D- bots that host the map Destiny, go random and when the game starts they announce their race. They then cheese you, such as building bunkers in your base, 4pool, or cannon rush. Fail and say gg.
If you mention the word bot they respond with no or my English not very good etc.
Generally imo this is pretty sad
Sad? Why? I think it's pretty cool that people are designing these things, okay they kinda suck at the moment but they're in the early stages, it's not like they're trying to cheese free wins on iccup with these bots...they're just testing them out.
These bots are light-years from high level play, it would take some really serious work to get one there and I sincerely doubt that anyone will make that effort. So in the end the only ones suffering will be us iccup nubs.
On June 18 2011 10:28 GaurdKnight wrote: I have played a few games against some different named D- bots that host the map Destiny, go random and when the game starts they announce their race. They then cheese you, such as building bunkers in your base, 4pool, or cannon rush. Fail and say gg.
If you mention the word bot they respond with no or my English not very good etc.
Generally imo this is pretty sad
Sad? Why? I think it's pretty cool that people are designing these things, okay they kinda suck at the moment but they're in the early stages, it's not like they're trying to cheese free wins on iccup with these bots...they're just testing them out.
The problem with this bot is that it tries to play "proffessional" level strategies but those require high amount of control, decision making and changing your plan a little bit based on what the opponent is doing. I think it wouldn't be very difficult to create a bot that could reach D+ rank, you just have to implement solid, agressive build with neccessary minimal micro (most likely 2 gate zealot pressure into maybe 4 gate goon) so it doesn't matter what the other player is doing.
On June 19 2011 08:22 rafaliusz wrote: The problem with this bot is that it tries to play "proffessional" level strategies but those require high amount of control, decision making and changing your plan a little bit based on what the opponent is doing. I think it wouldn't be very difficult to create a bot that could reach D+ rank, you just have to implement solid, agressive build with neccessary minimal micro (most likely 2 gate zealot pressure into maybe 4 gate goon) so it doesn't matter what the other player is doing.
Ehh.. you could make a ling all in bot that would do various zerg all ins.. i mean its a bot so it could pull off kwanro level ling micro so these kind of builds would work well. 2 hatch muta too.
And the reason these are bad for esports is they crowd up the game list in online servers where you expect to play against people not bots. so its harder to find games with real people and battle net becomes frustrating. This kind of process killed tfc, dmc to mention games.
I'm coding one of these bots for a competition against these guys and I can't even send probes to enemy bases correctly yet >.>
I think that SC is too hard for a bot to ever get past C level, but some people say in 80 years it will reach progamer level. I don't know, it's very hard. But all this is open source, so who knows!
I remember reading a thread a while ago about an event where they invited a bunch of schools to develop an AI that could play BW the most effectively, and it was pretty awesome. I don't remember what it is anymore :[
On July 17 2011 15:32 FetusFondler wrote: I remember reading a thread a while ago about an event where they invited a bunch of schools to develop an AI that could play BW the most effectively, and it was pretty awesome. I don't remember what it is anymore :[
BW is so archaic I'm really impressed by anyone making bots that are capable of playing competitevly online. IMO the bots should do builds that require insane micro and multitask to pull off (muta all-in, stim and range MnM TvT, Deep 6) to benefit from the insane micro abilitles that these bots have.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/De4I2.jpg)
Glad to see Skynet join EisBot. Maybe we'll see some 2v2 bot games soon haha!![[image loading]](http://repdepot.net/img/thumbs/42474.jpg)
