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On June 18 2011 00:34 Chef wrote:
I feel like you are manipulating the data a little too much to come to the conclusion you did.
What if you took the top 30 players of each race, and compared #1 vs #1 vs #1, and #2 vs #2 vs #2? That would make a lot more sense to me. Or maybe that's what you did... I'm not really sure. If that's what you did it's truly surprising that there are no anomalies outside the #1 spot.
That's kinda what he did. There are anomalies outside of the top spot - there are mostly 2-3, even 4 anomalies. Starcraft is kinda like rock, paper, scissors - Terran is supposed to beat Zerg (generally) and Zerg is supposed to beat Protoss and so forth. But what OP did was compare the AvB ELO of ranked players - the ranks increase (in a bad way) from left to right and each point compares the ELO's (Y coordinates) of equally ranked (X coordinates) players.
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On June 18 2011 00:07 Huragius wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 04:15 Severedevil wrote:On June 17 2011 04:11 Huragius wrote:
T>P>Z<T- remove Flash, and this will be incredibly wrong. Yes... remove Flash but not Jaedong or Bisu or Stork, that's a fair comparison. I don't think that by removing Jaedong/Bisu or Stork would change the results so drastically like by removing Flash.
Well, look at the TvZ chart. Remove the top T and the top Z (remove Flash and Jaedong) and the balance still holds. Look at the TvP chart. Remove Flash and Bisu/Stork, Fantasy still breaks the trend. As far as TvT, it doesn't really matter as Flash is Terran anyhow. You obviously didn't even look at the graphs before making that comment.
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What does the data look like if you remove Flash though? I mean, he seems to single handedly upset the entire thing xD
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United States17042 Posts
The interesting thing about this to me is that it describes the current balance with the current maps across the entire range of current players. If you could perform this analysis over time, I think that you would be able to determine eras, and determine if trends occured because of players, because of maps, or because of the metagame (or all three). This would tie in nicely with the analysis of TvZ during the savior era that was done some time ago, as well as allow you to have analysis of the map balance and effects during the six dragons era.
The reason that this analysis would match up well with those two eras and writeups is that you would find that savior dominated the rest of the zergs quite badly during his era, and none of his bonjwa-ness can be attributed to the era. Similarly, the 6 dragons era would show that the maps had a dominating effect on the results, and that the six dragons didn't necessarily need to do better or worse than they had historically (ELO wise) - just that the maps were that imbalanced.
Great collection of data for the current dominance of players though
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You can see what it looks like - see the highest ranked point on the blue line for any of the graphs? That's Flash. Pretend that isn't there, and you'll see what it looks like without him.
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what i find intriguing is that the data show zerg not really being in a dominant position elo-wise. on average, they get dominated harder in zvt than they dominate zvp. and still, excluding fantasy's bacchus 2010 win, it has been 2 and a half fucking years since any nonzerg not named flash won a starleague. in terms of starleague wins, zergs are the dominant race of the last few years. without flash, it would be even worse. he is the only one keeping zergs from taking title after title.
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On June 24 2011 00:59 xarthaz wrote:
No, it meas that Protoss and Zerg vT elos are lower than Protoss and Terran vZ elos, meaning that vT matchups are in aggregate biased toward T more than vZ matchups are toward Z
What happens if you remove Flash?
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Dunno.. one would have to calculate all the ELOs over again excluding all his matches (and jaedong & bisu in interests of balance i guess)
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I guess my point is that given the nature of the data it doesn't make sense to draw conclusions about the races themselves, but rather the players playing them? That sentence is poorly phrased but I am lazy
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On June 24 2011 03:55 Crunchums wrote:
I guess my point is that given the nature of the data it doesn't make sense to draw conclusions about the races themselves, but rather the players playing them? That sentence is poorly phrased but I am lazy
the fact that 4 of the 5 bonjwas are terran could be attributed to "luck", but random fluctuations in the quality of the playerbase between the races doesnt explain that there seem to be trends across all the playerbase.
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But the data doesn't even consider anything in the past - it's purely a snapshot of the current playerbase? And even if you did use historical data I don't think that tells you much about the races themselves given that if you were to send back a player from today they would probably absolutely dominate everyone, including the bonjwas? Furthermore, it is silly to only think of the "bonjwas" given that they are a somewhat arbitrarily selected group that totally ignores JD/Bisu/Stork and others.
Basically, you can make claims about stuff, but I don't know how you could ever hope to support those claims very well with the data used in the OP (or with any presently available data for that matter).
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It is merely a realist interpretation of the state of affairs of races. That there exist the premises of the game - the races, gameplay, maps. And the premises of the players - the human capabilities. And then the sample of players that is tested through korean proscene game statistics. As such, the answer describes what results are given this condition.
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Protoss needs help. When was the last time a freaking PROTOSS won a Starleague?! 3 Years?!?! Even throughout the history of proleague, there are no Protoss Bonjwas, and not enough protoss starleague champions. Zerg and Terran have far more than their share of titles. Some say that Protoss skill ceiling isn't as high as the other races because the nature of their units, while zerg and terran if microed "perfectly" like placing mines and siege tanks in the most perfect positions, then their potential is higher. Why do we not see more Protoss winning? Is it just random chance that we have a disproportionate win rates for the Protoss? By win rates I don't mean the overall winning ratio in regular matches, I'm talking about the results, such as the match for titles.
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On June 24 2011 07:13 Raz0r wrote:
Protoss needs help. When was the last time a freaking PROTOSS won a Starleague?! 3 Years?!?! Even throughout the history of proleague, there are no Protoss Bonjwas, and not enough protoss starleague champions. Zerg and Terran have far more than their share of titles. Some say that Protoss skill ceiling isn't as high as the other races because the nature of their units, while zerg and terran if microed "perfectly" like placing mines and siege tanks in the most perfect positions, then their potential is higher. Why do we not see more Protoss winning? Is it just random chance that we have a disproportionate win rates for the Protoss? By win rates I don't mean the overall winning ratio in regular matches, I'm talking about the results, such as the match for titles.
But wouldn't overall winning ratio be a more relevant statistic in determining how strong or weak a race is than titles? I mean there's not a built in weakness to Protoss that kicks in when it comes time to win individual leagues (just the Protoss players).
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On June 24 2011 07:13 Raz0r wrote:
Protoss needs help. When was the last time a freaking PROTOSS won a Starleague?! 3 Years?!?! Even throughout the history of proleague, there are no Protoss Bonjwas, and not enough protoss starleague champions. Zerg and Terran have far more than their share of titles. Some say that Protoss skill ceiling isn't as high as the other races because the nature of their units, while zerg and terran if microed "perfectly" like placing mines and siege tanks in the most perfect positions, then their potential is higher. Why do we not see more Protoss winning? Is it just random chance that we have a disproportionate win rates for the Protoss? By win rates I don't mean the overall winning ratio in regular matches, I'm talking about the results, such as the match for titles.
Bacchus 2010 was supposed to be Stork's for the taking. Playing at his peak on Protoss favored maps against only the second-best Terran (and previous Kong-liner), and having gone 16-2 vT for the six months prior. But as opposed to fantasy, he came under-prepared and apparently distraught from his break-up with his girlfriend, and he got shut out.
That's just how it goes. The excellent Protoss players like Stork and Bisu, mostly as individuals and not as a race, have their own personal problems in handling the pressures of the Starleagues. And all the other Protosses seem to be unable to reliably overcome the Zergs they must inevitably face.
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On June 24 2011 08:18 Bwenjarin Raffrack wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2011 07:13 Raz0r wrote:
Protoss needs help. When was the last time a freaking PROTOSS won a Starleague?! 3 Years?!?! Even throughout the history of proleague, there are no Protoss Bonjwas, and not enough protoss starleague champions. Zerg and Terran have far more than their share of titles. Some say that Protoss skill ceiling isn't as high as the other races because the nature of their units, while zerg and terran if microed "perfectly" like placing mines and siege tanks in the most perfect positions, then their potential is higher. Why do we not see more Protoss winning? Is it just random chance that we have a disproportionate win rates for the Protoss? By win rates I don't mean the overall winning ratio in regular matches, I'm talking about the results, such as the match for titles. Bacchus 2010 was supposed to be Stork's for the taking. Playing at his peak on Protoss favored maps against only the second-best Terran (and previous Kong-liner), and having gone 16-2 vT for the six months prior. But as opposed to fantasy, he came under-prepared and apparently distraught from his break-up with his girlfriend, and he got shut out. That's just how it goes. The excellent Protoss players like Stork and Bisu, mostly as individuals and not as a race, have their own personal problems in handling the pressures of the Starleagues. And all the other Protosses seem to be unable to reliably overcome the Zergs they must inevitably face.
is there a correlation between protoss users and people who seem to not handle the pressure during the starleague finals?
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On June 24 2011 13:30 Raz0r wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2011 08:18 Bwenjarin Raffrack wrote:On June 24 2011 07:13 Raz0r wrote:
Protoss needs help. When was the last time a freaking PROTOSS won a Starleague?! 3 Years?!?! Even throughout the history of proleague, there are no Protoss Bonjwas, and not enough protoss starleague champions. Zerg and Terran have far more than their share of titles. Some say that Protoss skill ceiling isn't as high as the other races because the nature of their units, while zerg and terran if microed "perfectly" like placing mines and siege tanks in the most perfect positions, then their potential is higher. Why do we not see more Protoss winning? Is it just random chance that we have a disproportionate win rates for the Protoss? By win rates I don't mean the overall winning ratio in regular matches, I'm talking about the results, such as the match for titles. Bacchus 2010 was supposed to be Stork's for the taking. Playing at his peak on Protoss favored maps against only the second-best Terran (and previous Kong-liner), and having gone 16-2 vT for the six months prior. But as opposed to fantasy, he came under-prepared and apparently distraught from his break-up with his girlfriend, and he got shut out. That's just how it goes. The excellent Protoss players like Stork and Bisu, mostly as individuals and not as a race, have their own personal problems in handling the pressures of the Starleagues. And all the other Protosses seem to be unable to reliably overcome the Zergs they must inevitably face. is there a correlation between protoss users and people who seem to not handle the pressure during the starleague finals?
well, a massive bunch of titles is distributed among a rather narrow selection of players. it could indeed be considered "bad luck" for protoss that one of the very best tosses ever, stork, is a notorious choker. some fewer epic fails from stork and toss could have 3 more titles. same goes for bisu and his notorious individual league crumbling. or what about yellow? the dude had like 1000000 silver medals. had he won half of his finals, zergs would be considered equally successful as terran over bw history.
all in all, bisu and stork are the only tosses out there during the last like ... 4-5 years who really have the potential to win starleagues - but they both just dont get their shit together when it comes to winning titles, each of them in his own way.
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On June 27 2011 09:12 Ermac wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2011 04:03 xarthaz wrote:On June 26 2011 23:35 Ermac wrote:I'll miss just about everything about Flash cause I'm deeply in love with him(no gayness yo!) The only positive side of a potential retirement would be that Flash would very probably be considered the greatest of all time period. He absolutely demolished Jaedong when it counted and matched NaDa's record at the age of 18(!!!!) amongst breaking and setting various other incredible records. It would suck for Jaedong though. No matter how many titles he'd win people would always say "yeah, cuz Flash wasn't around anymore" and he'd basically never be able to gain the upper hand in their rivalry ever again. It's hard enough as it is with JD having a clearly "weak" matchup atm. Furthermore there's Bisu. If he gets his shit together in individual leagues he'd probably be the favorite over Jaedong in a BoX. And now enough with the woulds and coulds. God Young Ho will recover, win many more titles and leave a trail of ash in his wake! All hail the God Child! + Show Spoiler +In all seriousness, get well soon Flash! <3 <3 <3 I'm worried about you... =( Again, ELO wise, he is not the greatest. Both Bisu and Jaedong have achieved higher ELO peaks in their niches, balanced to race ELO baseline. To be honest, he is excellent player with great achievements, but lets be realistic, there are facets in which other players have been better. Lol, you and your "relative ELO". Give me a break... On June 27 2011 09:49 L0thar wrote:
xarthaz:
This is Flash Appreciation Thread. Nobody here is interested in your questionable interpretation of Elo. You made your own thread about it and that's the appropriate place to discuss it further. Coming to an appreciation thread just to say "hey dudes, your favourite player is not that good as you think!" is pretty dick move. On June 27 2011 09:54 Like wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2011 09:49 L0thar wrote:
xarthaz:
This is Flash Appreciation Thread. Nobody here is interested in your questionable interpretation of Elo. You made your own thread about it and that's the appropriate place to discuss it further. Coming to an appreciation thread just to say "hey dudes, your favourite player is not that good as you think!" is pretty dick move. Thing is, he even was wrong in his statement. On June 27 2011 12:18 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +You are partly correct. The error you are making is confusing player skill with final ELO. Yes, in the final choice of RORO flash would be more scary, which ELO describes perfectly. The use of comparing ELOs to average is to normalize results to race biases.
You see, matchup biases exist, it is a fact, implied by the very characterisitics that define the race. Because of that, direct comparison is erroneous. As such,the elimination of race bias through normalization is correct, as it achieves what it is supposed to achieve, comparable values that eliminate race bias.
This is tangential of course. But the reason i brought this point is to bring the flash fans up from the skies back to earth. As you see, Flash too is mortal, he is not best at everything, and vZ performance(Bisu all time highest in unbiased ELO) and vT performance(Jaedong all time highest in unbiased ELO) is the example of the point in question.
With all that in mind though, Cheers to flash and Lets hope for fast recovery and many excellent future games. For surely, at least in vP terms, he is the best player of all time. Nobody cares or agrees with you. Stop acting as though your opinion on "unbiased elo" is fact. On June 27 2011 12:23 Sypuku wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2011 12:18 GolemMadness wrote:+ Show Spoiler +You are partly correct. The error you are making is confusing player skill with final ELO. Yes, in the final choice of RORO flash would be more scary, which ELO describes perfectly. The use of comparing ELOs to average is to normalize results to race biases.
You see, matchup biases exist, it is a fact, implied by the very characterisitics that define the race. Because of that, direct comparison is erroneous. As such,the elimination of race bias through normalization is correct, as it achieves what it is supposed to achieve, comparable values that eliminate race bias.
This is tangential of course. But the reason i brought this point is to bring the flash fans up from the skies back to earth. As you see, Flash too is mortal, he is not best at everything, and vZ performance(Bisu all time highest in unbiased ELO) and vT performance(Jaedong all time highest in unbiased ELO) is the example of the point in question.
With all that in mind though, Cheers to flash and Lets hope for fast recovery and many excellent future games. For surely, at least in vP terms, he is the best player of all time. Nobody cares or agrees with you. Stop acting as though your opinion on "unbiased elo" is fact. He is just boring troll, trying to argue that 2x2=3 or 2x2=5 depending on race :-)
On June 27 2011 07:32 Holgerius wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2011 04:03 xarthaz wrote:On June 26 2011 23:35 Ermac wrote:I'll miss just about everything about Flash cause I'm deeply in love with him(no gayness yo!) The only positive side of a potential retirement would be that Flash would very probably be considered the greatest of all time period. He absolutely demolished Jaedong when it counted and matched NaDa's record at the age of 18(!!!!) amongst breaking and setting various other incredible records. It would suck for Jaedong though. No matter how many titles he'd win people would always say "yeah, cuz Flash wasn't around anymore" and he'd basically never be able to gain the upper hand in their rivalry ever again. It's hard enough as it is with JD having a clearly "weak" matchup atm. Furthermore there's Bisu. If he gets his shit together in individual leagues he'd probably be the favorite over Jaedong in a BoX. And now enough with the woulds and coulds. God Young Ho will recover, win many more titles and leave a trail of ash in his wake! All hail the God Child! + Show Spoiler +In all seriousness, get well soon Flash! <3 <3 <3 I'm worried about you... =( Again, ELO wise, he is not the greatest. Both Bisu and Jaedong have achieved higher ELO peaks in their niches, balanced to race ELO baseline. To be honest, he is excellent player with great achievements, but lets be realistic, there are facets in which other players have been better. Rofl, ELO is one thing where Flash absolutely destroys all competition. XD Don't even wanna think about Flash retiring. 
On June 27 2011 05:54 beachbeachy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2011 04:03 xarthaz wrote:On June 26 2011 23:35 Ermac wrote:I'll miss just about everything about Flash cause I'm deeply in love with him(no gayness yo!) The only positive side of a potential retirement would be that Flash would very probably be considered the greatest of all time period. He absolutely demolished Jaedong when it counted and matched NaDa's record at the age of 18(!!!!) amongst breaking and setting various other incredible records. It would suck for Jaedong though. No matter how many titles he'd win people would always say "yeah, cuz Flash wasn't around anymore" and he'd basically never be able to gain the upper hand in their rivalry ever again. It's hard enough as it is with JD having a clearly "weak" matchup atm. Furthermore there's Bisu. If he gets his shit together in individual leagues he'd probably be the favorite over Jaedong in a BoX. And now enough with the woulds and coulds. God Young Ho will recover, win many more titles and leave a trail of ash in his wake! All hail the God Child! + Show Spoiler +In all seriousness, get well soon Flash! <3 <3 <3 I'm worried about you... =( Again, ELO wise, he is not the greatest. Both Bisu and Jaedong have achieved higher ELO peaks in their niches, balanced to race ELO baseline. To be honest, he is excellent player with great achievements, but lets be realistic, there are facets in which other players have been better. Flash holds every single ELO record.
On June 27 2011 06:13 Brainbag wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2011 04:03 xarthaz wrote:On June 26 2011 23:35 Ermac wrote:I'll miss just about everything about Flash cause I'm deeply in love with him(no gayness yo!) The only positive side of a potential retirement would be that Flash would very probably be considered the greatest of all time period. He absolutely demolished Jaedong when it counted and matched NaDa's record at the age of 18(!!!!) amongst breaking and setting various other incredible records. It would suck for Jaedong though. No matter how many titles he'd win people would always say "yeah, cuz Flash wasn't around anymore" and he'd basically never be able to gain the upper hand in their rivalry ever again. It's hard enough as it is with JD having a clearly "weak" matchup atm. Furthermore there's Bisu. If he gets his shit together in individual leagues he'd probably be the favorite over Jaedong in a BoX. And now enough with the woulds and coulds. God Young Ho will recover, win many more titles and leave a trail of ash in his wake! All hail the God Child! + Show Spoiler +In all seriousness, get well soon Flash! <3 <3 <3 I'm worried about you... =( Again, ELO wise, he is not the greatest. Both Bisu and Jaedong have achieved higher ELO peaks in their niches, balanced to race ELO baseline. To be honest, he is excellent player with great achievements, but lets be realistic, there are facets in which other players have been better. That can be said about every single player out there who has ever beaten flash. But as a jaedong fan, I must say this. Flash is the most consitent players out there, in terms of winning, and mechanics. He hits a small slump and a wrist injury, and you have come to say Flash is not the greatest ELO wise without proof of anything. Here is your ELO proof + Show Spoiler +And here is Flash's small slump. + Show Spoiler +Now look through all the games he has played, and against whom he has played, and tell me he isnt the most consistent player out there who plays the best already. On June 27 2011 05:12 Sypuku wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2011 04:03 xarthaz wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 26 2011 23:35 Ermac wrote:I'll miss just about everything about Flash cause I'm deeply in love with him(no gayness yo!) The only positive side of a potential retirement would be that Flash would very probably be considered the greatest of all time period. He absolutely demolished Jaedong when it counted and matched NaDa's record at the age of 18(!!!!) amongst breaking and setting various other incredible records. It would suck for Jaedong though. No matter how many titles he'd win people would always say "yeah, cuz Flash wasn't around anymore" and he'd basically never be able to gain the upper hand in their rivalry ever again. It's hard enough as it is with JD having a clearly "weak" matchup atm. Furthermore there's Bisu. If he gets his shit together in individual leagues he'd probably be the favorite over Jaedong in a BoX. And now enough with the woulds and coulds. God Young Ho will recover, win many more titles and leave a trail of ash in his wake! All hail the God Child! + Show Spoiler +In all seriousness, get well soon Flash! <3 <3 <3 I'm worried about you... =( Again, ELO wise, he is not the greatest. Both Bisu and Jaedong have achieved higher ELO peaks in their niches, balanced to race ELO baseline. To be honest, he is excellent player with great achievements, but lets be realistic, there are facets in which other players have been better. LOL. ALL Elo peaks belong to Flash. U just trolling? Or u want to say: Bisu is the better protoss than Flash and Jaedong is the better zerg than Flash? LOL. Yes it is true... But Flash is terran and he is the greatest player ever towering over everybody.
The latest criticisms of the concept of average race elo as a describer of matchup bias. Unfortunately they are unsubstantiated, and further elaboration is necessary to show their validity.
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On June 25 2011 08:23 Black Gun wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2011 13:30 Raz0r wrote:On June 24 2011 08:18 Bwenjarin Raffrack wrote:On June 24 2011 07:13 Raz0r wrote:
Protoss needs help. When was the last time a freaking PROTOSS won a Starleague?! 3 Years?!?! Even throughout the history of proleague, there are no Protoss Bonjwas, and not enough protoss starleague champions. Zerg and Terran have far more than their share of titles. Some say that Protoss skill ceiling isn't as high as the other races because the nature of their units, while zerg and terran if microed "perfectly" like placing mines and siege tanks in the most perfect positions, then their potential is higher. Why do we not see more Protoss winning? Is it just random chance that we have a disproportionate win rates for the Protoss? By win rates I don't mean the overall winning ratio in regular matches, I'm talking about the results, such as the match for titles. Bacchus 2010 was supposed to be Stork's for the taking. Playing at his peak on Protoss favored maps against only the second-best Terran (and previous Kong-liner), and having gone 16-2 vT for the six months prior. But as opposed to fantasy, he came under-prepared and apparently distraught from his break-up with his girlfriend, and he got shut out. That's just how it goes. The excellent Protoss players like Stork and Bisu, mostly as individuals and not as a race, have their own personal problems in handling the pressures of the Starleagues. And all the other Protosses seem to be unable to reliably overcome the Zergs they must inevitably face. is there a correlation between protoss users and people who seem to not handle the pressure during the starleague finals? well, a massive bunch of titles is distributed among a rather narrow selection of players. it could indeed be considered "bad luck" for protoss that one of the very best tosses ever, stork, is a notorious choker. some fewer epic fails from stork and toss could have 3 more titles. same goes for bisu and his notorious individual league crumbling. or what about yellow? the dude had like 1000000 silver medals. had he won half of his finals, zergs would be considered equally successful as terran over bw history. all in all, bisu and stork are the only tosses out there during the last like ... 4-5 years who really have the potential to win starleagues - but they both just dont get their shit together when it comes to winning titles, each of them in his own way.
During the era of the 6 dragons, there were a lot of protosses that were title contenders (6 to be exact).
Seriously though, Jangbi racked up a lot of silvers and was one of the best out there, and best was the favorite in any starleuage until he hit a zerg.
As for why protoss has no titles recently, I think it is twofold:
1) Protoss doesn't get the huge advantages that other races (mostly zerg) get from a bad map, or a shift in the strategy. Zerg has a lot of one-hit wonders with people like yarnc, calm, and maybe hydra (I think he has the best ZvZ, but I'm not sold on his other match ups yet, but he has plenty of time to prove me wrong) and even terran had some in casy, forgg, and mind. All of the protosses who won starleauges are some of the best to play the game with only one (maybe two depending on your idea of "the best") exception.
2) Flash and Jd are/were just better starcraft players that everyone else.
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On June 27 2011 12:26 xarthaz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2011 09:12 Ermac wrote:On June 27 2011 04:03 xarthaz wrote:On June 26 2011 23:35 Ermac wrote:I'll miss just about everything about Flash cause I'm deeply in love with him(no gayness yo!) The only positive side of a potential retirement would be that Flash would very probably be considered the greatest of all time period. He absolutely demolished Jaedong when it counted and matched NaDa's record at the age of 18(!!!!) amongst breaking and setting various other incredible records. It would suck for Jaedong though. No matter how many titles he'd win people would always say "yeah, cuz Flash wasn't around anymore" and he'd basically never be able to gain the upper hand in their rivalry ever again. It's hard enough as it is with JD having a clearly "weak" matchup atm. Furthermore there's Bisu. If he gets his shit together in individual leagues he'd probably be the favorite over Jaedong in a BoX. And now enough with the woulds and coulds. God Young Ho will recover, win many more titles and leave a trail of ash in his wake! All hail the God Child! + Show Spoiler +In all seriousness, get well soon Flash! <3 <3 <3 I'm worried about you... =( Again, ELO wise, he is not the greatest. Both Bisu and Jaedong have achieved higher ELO peaks in their niches, balanced to race ELO baseline. To be honest, he is excellent player with great achievements, but lets be realistic, there are facets in which other players have been better. Lol, you and your "relative ELO". Give me a break... Show nested quote +On June 27 2011 09:49 L0thar wrote:
xarthaz:
This is Flash Appreciation Thread. Nobody here is interested in your questionable interpretation of Elo. You made your own thread about it and that's the appropriate place to discuss it further. Coming to an appreciation thread just to say "hey dudes, your favourite player is not that good as you think!" is pretty dick move. Show nested quote +On June 27 2011 09:54 Like wrote:On June 27 2011 09:49 L0thar wrote:
xarthaz:
This is Flash Appreciation Thread. Nobody here is interested in your questionable interpretation of Elo. You made your own thread about it and that's the appropriate place to discuss it further. Coming to an appreciation thread just to say "hey dudes, your favourite player is not that good as you think!" is pretty dick move. Thing is, he even was wrong in his statement. Show nested quote +On June 27 2011 12:18 GolemMadness wrote:You are partly correct. The error you are making is confusing player skill with final ELO. Yes, in the final choice of RORO flash would be more scary, which ELO describes perfectly. The use of comparing ELOs to average is to normalize results to race biases.
You see, matchup biases exist, it is a fact, implied by the very characterisitics that define the race. Because of that, direct comparison is erroneous. As such,the elimination of race bias through normalization is correct, as it achieves what it is supposed to achieve, comparable values that eliminate race bias.
This is tangential of course. But the reason i brought this point is to bring the flash fans up from the skies back to earth. As you see, Flash too is mortal, he is not best at everything, and vZ performance(Bisu all time highest in unbiased ELO) and vT performance(Jaedong all time highest in unbiased ELO) is the example of the point in question.
With all that in mind though, Cheers to flash and Lets hope for fast recovery and many excellent future games. For surely, at least in vP terms, he is the best player of all time. Nobody cares or agrees with you. Stop acting as though your opinion on "unbiased elo" is fact. Show nested quote +On June 27 2011 12:23 Sypuku wrote:On June 27 2011 12:18 GolemMadness wrote:+ Show Spoiler +You are partly correct. The error you are making is confusing player skill with final ELO. Yes, in the final choice of RORO flash would be more scary, which ELO describes perfectly. The use of comparing ELOs to average is to normalize results to race biases.
You see, matchup biases exist, it is a fact, implied by the very characterisitics that define the race. Because of that, direct comparison is erroneous. As such,the elimination of race bias through normalization is correct, as it achieves what it is supposed to achieve, comparable values that eliminate race bias.
This is tangential of course. But the reason i brought this point is to bring the flash fans up from the skies back to earth. As you see, Flash too is mortal, he is not best at everything, and vZ performance(Bisu all time highest in unbiased ELO) and vT performance(Jaedong all time highest in unbiased ELO) is the example of the point in question.
With all that in mind though, Cheers to flash and Lets hope for fast recovery and many excellent future games. For surely, at least in vP terms, he is the best player of all time. Nobody cares or agrees with you. Stop acting as though your opinion on "unbiased elo" is fact. He is just boring troll, trying to argue that 2x2=3 or 2x2=5 depending on race :-) Show nested quote +On June 27 2011 07:32 Holgerius wrote:On June 27 2011 04:03 xarthaz wrote:On June 26 2011 23:35 Ermac wrote:I'll miss just about everything about Flash cause I'm deeply in love with him(no gayness yo!) The only positive side of a potential retirement would be that Flash would very probably be considered the greatest of all time period. He absolutely demolished Jaedong when it counted and matched NaDa's record at the age of 18(!!!!) amongst breaking and setting various other incredible records. It would suck for Jaedong though. No matter how many titles he'd win people would always say "yeah, cuz Flash wasn't around anymore" and he'd basically never be able to gain the upper hand in their rivalry ever again. It's hard enough as it is with JD having a clearly "weak" matchup atm. Furthermore there's Bisu. If he gets his shit together in individual leagues he'd probably be the favorite over Jaedong in a BoX. And now enough with the woulds and coulds. God Young Ho will recover, win many more titles and leave a trail of ash in his wake! All hail the God Child! + Show Spoiler +In all seriousness, get well soon Flash! <3 <3 <3 I'm worried about you... =( Again, ELO wise, he is not the greatest. Both Bisu and Jaedong have achieved higher ELO peaks in their niches, balanced to race ELO baseline. To be honest, he is excellent player with great achievements, but lets be realistic, there are facets in which other players have been better. Rofl, ELO is one thing where Flash absolutely destroys all competition. XD Don't even wanna think about Flash retiring. Show nested quote +On June 27 2011 05:54 beachbeachy wrote:On June 27 2011 04:03 xarthaz wrote:On June 26 2011 23:35 Ermac wrote:I'll miss just about everything about Flash cause I'm deeply in love with him(no gayness yo!) The only positive side of a potential retirement would be that Flash would very probably be considered the greatest of all time period. He absolutely demolished Jaedong when it counted and matched NaDa's record at the age of 18(!!!!) amongst breaking and setting various other incredible records. It would suck for Jaedong though. No matter how many titles he'd win people would always say "yeah, cuz Flash wasn't around anymore" and he'd basically never be able to gain the upper hand in their rivalry ever again. It's hard enough as it is with JD having a clearly "weak" matchup atm. Furthermore there's Bisu. If he gets his shit together in individual leagues he'd probably be the favorite over Jaedong in a BoX. And now enough with the woulds and coulds. God Young Ho will recover, win many more titles and leave a trail of ash in his wake! All hail the God Child! + Show Spoiler +In all seriousness, get well soon Flash! <3 <3 <3 I'm worried about you... =( Again, ELO wise, he is not the greatest. Both Bisu and Jaedong have achieved higher ELO peaks in their niches, balanced to race ELO baseline. To be honest, he is excellent player with great achievements, but lets be realistic, there are facets in which other players have been better. Flash holds every single ELO record. Show nested quote +On June 27 2011 06:13 Brainbag wrote:On June 27 2011 04:03 xarthaz wrote:On June 26 2011 23:35 Ermac wrote:I'll miss just about everything about Flash cause I'm deeply in love with him(no gayness yo!) The only positive side of a potential retirement would be that Flash would very probably be considered the greatest of all time period. He absolutely demolished Jaedong when it counted and matched NaDa's record at the age of 18(!!!!) amongst breaking and setting various other incredible records. It would suck for Jaedong though. No matter how many titles he'd win people would always say "yeah, cuz Flash wasn't around anymore" and he'd basically never be able to gain the upper hand in their rivalry ever again. It's hard enough as it is with JD having a clearly "weak" matchup atm. Furthermore there's Bisu. If he gets his shit together in individual leagues he'd probably be the favorite over Jaedong in a BoX. And now enough with the woulds and coulds. God Young Ho will recover, win many more titles and leave a trail of ash in his wake! All hail the God Child! + Show Spoiler +In all seriousness, get well soon Flash! <3 <3 <3 I'm worried about you... =( Again, ELO wise, he is not the greatest. Both Bisu and Jaedong have achieved higher ELO peaks in their niches, balanced to race ELO baseline. To be honest, he is excellent player with great achievements, but lets be realistic, there are facets in which other players have been better. That can be said about every single player out there who has ever beaten flash. But as a jaedong fan, I must say this. Flash is the most consitent players out there, in terms of winning, and mechanics. He hits a small slump and a wrist injury, and you have come to say Flash is not the greatest ELO wise without proof of anything. Here is your ELO proof + Show Spoiler +And here is Flash's small slump. + Show Spoiler +Now look through all the games he has played, and against whom he has played, and tell me he isnt the most consistent player out there who plays the best already. Show nested quote +On June 27 2011 05:12 Sypuku wrote:On June 27 2011 04:03 xarthaz wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 26 2011 23:35 Ermac wrote:I'll miss just about everything about Flash cause I'm deeply in love with him(no gayness yo!) The only positive side of a potential retirement would be that Flash would very probably be considered the greatest of all time period. He absolutely demolished Jaedong when it counted and matched NaDa's record at the age of 18(!!!!) amongst breaking and setting various other incredible records. It would suck for Jaedong though. No matter how many titles he'd win people would always say "yeah, cuz Flash wasn't around anymore" and he'd basically never be able to gain the upper hand in their rivalry ever again. It's hard enough as it is with JD having a clearly "weak" matchup atm. Furthermore there's Bisu. If he gets his shit together in individual leagues he'd probably be the favorite over Jaedong in a BoX. And now enough with the woulds and coulds. God Young Ho will recover, win many more titles and leave a trail of ash in his wake! All hail the God Child! + Show Spoiler +In all seriousness, get well soon Flash! <3 <3 <3 I'm worried about you... =( Again, ELO wise, he is not the greatest. Both Bisu and Jaedong have achieved higher ELO peaks in their niches, balanced to race ELO baseline. To be honest, he is excellent player with great achievements, but lets be realistic, there are facets in which other players have been better. LOL. ALL Elo peaks belong to Flash. U just trolling? Or u want to say: Bisu is the better protoss than Flash and Jaedong is the better zerg than Flash? LOL. Yes it is true... But Flash is terran and he is the greatest player ever towering over everybody. The latest criticisms of the concept of average race elo as a describer of matchup bias. Unfortunately they are unsubstantiated, and further elaboration is necessary to show their validity.
You are the one trying to prove that "unbiased blah elo blah etc". Seriously, I've read all of your comments regarding the subject and you have a very interesting personal opinion, but no arguments at all to support it. You say it's biased, we ALL say it's not. Have you proven us wrong? nope.
You are the one who needs "criticize" our position. One could thing that the graphic in the first post is an argument, but not really. I mean, if Zerg defeated Terran more often, would that make Flash better or worse at TvZ? How? Would that affect his micro, macro, decision making or multitasking?
Please, I urge you to think about that before posting your next highly intellectual and polite comment.
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