EPT
) ?BW APM vs. SC2 APM (question)
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SomeONEx
Sweden641 Posts
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FXOTheoRy
United States519 Posts
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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
BW doesn't have an APM display or an in-game clock, so the "faster is the default" thing doesn't matter. When people talk about APM in BW, they mean actions per normal human minute, instead of crazy Blizzard minute. | ||
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Musou
1375 Posts
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JiYan
United States3668 Posts
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xxpack09
United States2160 Posts
1) Different games take different amounts of APM to play effectively 2) Generally, you can have more APM in a game where you're more comfortable with the interface. | ||
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Gatsbizzle
United States132 Posts
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/APM That would be the numerical difference. As for the necessity for higher or lower APM depending on the game, well, that's a different discussion. Edit: woops got beat to it (due to my low APM, no doubt ) | ||
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SirGlinG
Sweden933 Posts
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Termit
Sweden3466 Posts
On June 14 2011 02:57 SirGlinG wrote: Not sure how much it differs but my apm is about 40 % less in sc2. But that could have to do with the game itself perhaps not requiring as much apm yet as bw did for me. I believe SC2 takes away ~100 APM from your real APM or something like that. I don't really remember what Artosis said when he talked about this during a cast. | ||
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ShadeR
Australia7535 Posts
On June 14 2011 02:56 Musou wrote: BW apm is calculated using BWChart and is realtime APM. It includes spamming, so EAPM (effective APM) is a player's actual APM. 1100 is quite an exaggeration unless he was literally sitting there just spamming and doing nothing useful, as I've the highest APM I've ever seen from a pro was July's 800+ peak APM in his game against Hwasin in 2007. The highest average I remember is around 450 from either Effort or Hiya recently. I believe Hero also has quite a high average APM, but I don't recall seeing exact numbers given by the networks. SC2 APM is in gametime rather than realtime, so multiply by 1.4 to get 'realtime APM' which would be comparable to BW APM. I forget which individual league it was but i remember a bunch of zergs averaging over 500apm. Hyuk, Hero... | ||
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primebeef
United States140 Posts
SC2 has a lower apm counter because it is player on a faster setting than BW, I forgot what the ratio of SC2 compared to BW is but it a fraction like 9/10 or so. Nada who has a very high APM when he first switched over to SC2 had 300-400 apm with super spam, but it has droped since then. 450 is a believeable amount for SC2 but it won't help him with anything if 350-400 of those actions are useless. | ||
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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
On June 14 2011 02:56 xxpack09 wrote: I guarantee you no one has 1100 APM in BW. That said: 1) Different games take different amounts of APM to play effectively 2) Generally, you can have more APM in a game where you're more comfortable with the interface. Agreed with this. I have 70 "SC2 APM" (So ~90) in SC2 as Zerg. Playing Zerg in SC1, I have 60 APM, which is less even before conversion. As to which requires more, that's a flamewar waiting to happen, but SC2 requires at least 50 APM (70 "real" APM) to play "competently", according to Day[9]. I imagine that the minimum threshold for BW is higher. At the pro level, once converted to "real" time, Korean SC2 pros move as fast as Korean BW pros. The only foreigner whose APM I know offhand is Kiwikaki's 170 (~230 after conversion), but I don't know if that's common for foreigners. On June 14 2011 03:13 primebeef wrote: There is no one with 1100 apm. SC2 has a lower apm counter because it is player on a faster setting than BW, I forgot what the ratio of SC2 compared to BW is but it a fraction like 9/10 or so. Nada who has a very high APM when he first switched over to SC2 had 300-400 apm with super spam, but it has droped since then. 450 is a believeable amount for SC2 but it won't help him with anything if 350-400 of those actions are useless. It's about 3/4ths. 450 is the high end of humanly possible, unless that's after conversion, where it's a little more reasonable. But if the guy claimed 1100 BW APM, he's propably full of crap. No one's that fast. | ||
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xxpack09
United States2160 Posts
On June 14 2011 03:11 ShadeR wrote: I forget which individual league it was but i remember a bunch of zergs averaging over 500apm. Hyuk, Hero... Hero is known to have broken 500 in a game | ||
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Zapdos_Smithh
Canada2620 Posts
I believe July had 818 in one game, I remember seeing a video/screen shot. Probably only a 5 minute game though. | ||
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Musou
1375 Posts
On June 14 2011 03:13 Ribbon wrote: Agreed with this. I have 70 "SC2 APM" (So ~90) in SC2 as Zerg. Playing Zerg in SC1, I have 60 APM, which is less even before conversion. As to which requires more, that's a flamewar waiting to happen, but SC2 requires at least 50 APM (70 "real" APM) to play "competently", according to Day[9]. I imagine that the minimum threshold for BW is higher. At the pro level, once converted to "real" time, Korean SC2 pros move as fast as Korean BW pros. The only foreigner whose APM I know offhand is Kiwikaki's 170 (~230 after conversion), but I don't know if that's common for foreigners. It's about 3/4ths. 450 is the high end of humanly possible, unless that's after conversion, where it's a little more reasonable. But if the guy claimed 1100 BW APM, he's propably full of crap. No one's that fast. 1100 is actually possible if you spam and do nothing else. I've done a test in SC2 where I've just hotkeyed everything 1 to 0 and sat there spamming as fast as I could for a couple minutes and my APM was averaging over 1000 in the replay. Granted, it was completely worthless as I was literally doing nothing but spamming selects and not building or mining or anything. Anyone who's played piano at a high level will easily have that much APM if not more, considering there are pieces where you have to sustain constant 16th and 32nd notes at 300+bpm and a single beat is a quarter note (ie 1200-2400 APM per hand). | ||
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ShadeR
Australia7535 Posts
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Royalcommand
Korea (South)189 Posts
On June 14 2011 03:16 Zapdos_Smithh wrote: I believe July had 818 in one game, I remember seeing a video/screen shot. Probably only a 5 minute game though. that was his max in 1 game, it was probably just holding down the "1" key | ||
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corumjhaelen
France6884 Posts
On June 14 2011 03:21 ShadeR wrote: Yes but i'm fairly certain modern zergs average 500+ which if i daresay is much more impressive than just hitting 818. As those zerg are Hyuk and Hero, I would not qualify that as impressive. Stork, sAviOr and Nal_ra are true heroes =) | ||
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ComaDose
Canada10352 Posts
tried to search but can't find the exact amount of sc2 blizzard faster seconds in a real min. or vise versa. personal observations say about 45 real seconds in a sc2 blizzard faster minuet but is there a exact number posted somewhere? | ||
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ShadeR
Australia7535 Posts
On June 14 2011 03:27 corumjhaelen wrote: As those zerg are Hyuk and Hero, I would not qualify that as impressive. Stork, sAviOr and Nal_ra are true heroes =) Amazes me how Stork is from the savior nalra era with comparatively low apm compared to the mechanical beasts of today is still competitive. | ||
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TrueZerG
43 Posts
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Gooey
United States944 Posts
But respectively, broodwar requires more mechanical function than sc2 does, and it takes more actions to perform the same things you do in sc2. | ||
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Puosu
6984 Posts
On June 14 2011 04:16 TrueZerG wrote: Err July hit 818 doing muta micro I believe, before they know how to stack mutas w/ Ovies, they would spam select minerals with mutas which would clump them for about 3 seconds and then attack so it was something like 1a,f1,1m(to mineral patch) M (mutas into base) 1h, move spam select back to minerals xD That was well after the overlord stack trick was invented. It's also pretty much impossible to determine where the 818 apm took place as we only knew about it due to the aftergame stats shown by the game channel. | ||
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Megaliskuu
United States5123 Posts
On June 14 2011 02:56 JiYan wrote: even with spam i dont see how you get to 1100 apm Going szzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz gets you pretty close to 1000 :p | ||
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XXGeneration
United States625 Posts
On June 14 2011 03:21 Royalcommand wrote: that was his max in 1 game, it was probably just holding down the "1" key In BW holding down a single key only counts as one action, if I'm not mistaken. I also heard that July was microing on two sides of the map before muta stacking had been invented, but I'm not completely sure. | ||
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butchji
Germany1531 Posts
On June 14 2011 03:21 ShadeR wrote: Yes but i'm fairly certain modern zergs average 500+ which if i daresay is much more impressive than just hitting 818. lol | ||
Excalibur_Z
United States12235 Posts
Also, lag is a big factor in finding APM. The laggier the game, the more actions can be performed in a set amount of time. There was a famous game on WGTour where Nada had an incredibly high APM (around 700?), but it just turned out to be a laggy game. | ||
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Shinshady
Canada1237 Posts
On June 14 2011 03:11 ShadeR wrote: I forget which individual league it was but i remember a bunch of zergs averaging over 500apm. Hyuk, Hero... 99% sure it's OSL... since it's the bigger league w/ the cooler things ;P not to insult MSL in anyway, but OSL does things a lot smoother ;D with their after game stats... something MSL should be doing as well | ||
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knyttym
United States5797 Posts
On June 14 2011 03:21 ShadeR wrote: Yes but i'm fairly certain modern zergs average 500+ which if i daresay is much more impressive than just hitting 818. wtf 500? Average apm still sits in the mid 300s for tbls. Stork sometimes ever lower. Lower end 400s aren't too uncommon. 500 is just plain mass spam edit: And to OP, 450 sc2 apm is just plain ridiculous spam. Using a rounded 1.4 conversion, that is 630 brood war apm. Most foreign players run in the high 100s to low 200s. Certain players have up to 300 (select and I believe vibe). Of the Korean reps I've seen, mid 200s was pretty common and I've seen up to 350ish. | ||
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Release
United States4397 Posts
On June 14 2011 05:20 kNyTTyM wrote: wtf 500? Average apm still sits in the mid 300s for tbls. Stork sometimes ever lower. Lower end 400s aren't too uncommon. 500 is just plain mass spam Well Hero is famous for 500 average apm | ||
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xxpack09
United States2160 Posts
On June 14 2011 05:20 kNyTTyM wrote: wtf 500? Average apm still sits in the mid 300s for tbls. Stork sometimes ever lower. Lower end 400s aren't too uncommon. 500 is just plain mass spam Which is why zergs with 500 APM are Hyuk and hero, not Zero and Jaedong | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On June 14 2011 04:19 Gooey wrote: I believe most BW progamers right now sit around 400 on average, give or take 50, some in the lower 500s (especially zergs). That would be comparable to someone who has 300-350 apm or so in SC2 (think along the lines of MC or SeleCT). Your average SC2 pro has apm in the 200-250 range, which is about 300ish BW apm. But respectively, broodwar requires more mechanical function than sc2 does, and it takes more actions to perform the same things you do in sc2. No, it's definitely not that high. From the several hundred pro games I have and have looked at in BWChart/RepInfo I'd venture to guess the average is a little below or right at 300. The fast players/good multitaskers don't necessarily have more APM than others, but they almost always have noticeably more EAPM, which correlates pretty well with a players multitasking, especially amongst progamers. For instance Bisu generally has a relatively pedestrian 280-330 APM but he has an exceptionally low amount of spam and as a result frequently gets EAPM in excess of 220, which is quite high (average among progamers seems to be in the 180-190 range). Jaedong on the other hand plays with alot of APM, 350-low 400's, but is heavier on the spam and ends up with a similar 200-230 EAPM like Bisu. I think the fastest I progamer I have noticed is BaBy who is a 350-400 APM/240-280 EAPM guy. Bisu is particularly interesting, people love to quote him as being in the 400 apm range, but I have never seen anything close to this in the 50+ reps of him I have. His actual APM is fairly pedestrian for a progamer, bit his lack of spam results in a tremendous EAM value that puts him among the fastest of progamers. Also, many of the protosses are not particularly fast. Kal is a mid 300's guy, but many like Best and Stork are maybe mid to upper 200's at fastest and some like Movie and Afrotoss are scarcely above 200 in some games and rarely faster than 240 or so. In BW holding down a single key only counts as one action, if I'm not mistaken. Hotkeying something and holding down that hotkey yields an APM of around 1300-1500. | ||
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Release
United States4397 Posts
On June 14 2011 05:24 L_Master wrote: No, it's definitely not that high. From the several hundred pro games I have and have looked at in BWChart/RepInfo I'd venture to guess the average is a little below or right at 300. The fast players/good multitaskers don't necessarily have more APM than others, but they almost always have noticeably more EAPM, which correlates pretty well with a players multitasking, especially amongst progamers. For instance Bisu generally has a relatively pedestrian 280-330 APM but he has an exceptionally low amount of spam and as a result frequently gets EAPM in excess of 220, which is quite high (average among progamers seems to be in the 180-190 range). Jaedong on the other hand plays with alot of APM, 350-low 400's, but is heavier on the spam and ends up with a similar 200-230 EAPM like Bisu. I think the fastest I progamer I have noticed is BaBy who is a 350-400 APM/240-280 EAPM guy. Hotkeying something and holding down that hotkey yields an APM of around 1300-1500. Remember that game in the WL? Jaedong simply out multitasked Baby so im not sure that Baby's EAPM is actually higher than Jaedong's. | ||
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xccam
Great Britain1150 Posts
On June 14 2011 05:26 Release wrote: Remember that game in the WL? Jaedong simply out multitasked Baby so im not sure that Baby's EAPM is actually higher than Jaedong's. EAPM is just actions that arent invalid or not possible at the time, not multitasing ability. | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On June 14 2011 05:26 Release wrote: Remember that game in the WL? Jaedong simply out multitasked Baby so im not sure that Baby's EAPM is actually higher than Jaedong's. Admittedly I only have 3 or 4 games of BaBy's, but it's possible he is a player that spams in a little more EAPM friendly manner. Certainly on ICCup I have played some people with 150-180 eapm that honestly don't seem to do a ton. While BaBy may or not be quite on a Jaedong or Bisu level he is without a doubt one of the faster progamers around. I can remember a few games of his where I was totally shocked at the amount of stuff BaBy was doing. On June 14 2011 05:31 xccam wrote: EAPM is just actions that arent invalid or not possible at the time, not multitasing ability. This is also true, however in my experience especially at progamer level EAPM has a pretty tight correlation with multitasking ability. I haven't seen any of the progamers considered to be fantastic multitaskers with an EAPM any lower than 200-210, and I don't see many 200+ guys that relatively meh in the multitasking department. Also, it almost sounds like your describing BWCharts VAPM instead of EAPM, as EAPM cuts away far, far more than just invalid or impossible actions. It specifically looks for patterns of actions considered to be spam, such as repeated selects without a subsequent command, and discounts them. Its much worse on ICCup though. Sometimes people with 100 eapm do more than people with 160 eapm. | ||
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jyLee
United States350 Posts
On June 14 2011 05:24 L_Master wrote: No, it's definitely not that high. From the several hundred pro games I have and have looked at in BWChart/RepInfo I'd venture to guess the average is a little below or right at 300. The fast players/good multitaskers don't necessarily have more APM than others, but they almost always have noticeably more EAPM, which correlates pretty well with a players multitasking, especially amongst progamers. For instance Bisu generally has a relatively pedestrian 280-330 APM but he has an exceptionally low amount of spam and as a result frequently gets EAPM in excess of 220, which is quite high (average among progamers seems to be in the 180-190 range). Jaedong on the other hand plays with alot of APM, 350-low 400's, but is heavier on the spam and ends up with a similar 200-230 EAPM like Bisu. I think the fastest I progamer I have noticed is BaBy who is a 350-400 APM/240-280 EAPM guy. Bisu is particularly interesting, people love to quote him as being in the 400 apm range, but I have never seen anything close to this in the 50+ reps of him I have. His actual APM is fairly pedestrian for a progamer, bit his lack of spam results in a tremendous EAM value that puts him among the fastest of progamers. Also, many of the protosses are not particularly fast. Kal is a mid 300's guy, but many like Best and Stork are maybe mid to upper 200's at fastest and some like Movie and Afrotoss are scarcely above 200 in some games and rarely faster than 240 or so. Hotkeying something and holding down that hotkey yields an APM of around 1300-1500. I dont think its fair to compare JD's EAPM with Bisu's. Protoss is able to hotkey the majority of their armies while zerg cannot. This leads to lots of clicking, mouse drags, etc. I'm not 100% sure exactly how EAPM takes that into account so I believe a zerg's EAPM is actually not entirely accurate compared to a protoss or terran player and might actually be higher. Also there's a clear pattern in APM among the 3 races and zerg is always on top. I dont think its because all zergs just become pro at spamming faster but their playstyle calls for more APM. For instance, melee units require more APM to control properly than ranged units. | ||
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SomeONEx
Sweden641 Posts
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On June 14 2011 03:13 Ribbon wrote: Agreed with this. I have 70 "SC2 APM" (So ~90) in SC2 as Zerg. Playing Zerg in SC1, I have 60 APM, which is less even before conversion. As to which requires more, that's a flamewar waiting to happen, but SC2 requires at least 50 APM (70 "real" APM) to play "competently", according to Day[9]. I imagine that the minimum threshold for BW is higher. At the pro level, once converted to "real" time, Korean SC2 pros move as fast as Korean BW pros. The only foreigner whose APM I know offhand is Kiwikaki's 170 (~230 after conversion), but I don't know if that's common for foreigners. The threshold for Korean progaming is around 250 these days. You simply won't find anyone lower. Savior used to be generally in the 200-240 range. Stork upped his APM a lot over the past few years. AFAIK the highest APM in a pro match still belongs to NaDa. I believe it was 586. On June 14 2011 03:16 Zapdos_Smithh wrote: I believe July had 818 in one game, I remember seeing a video/screen shot. Probably only a 5 minute game though. My recollection is that this was not for a full game, just the peak APM. The highest peak APM I have ever seen in that wasn't some D-rank idiot mashing keys just to brag to his friends about fake APM was 1140 from TheMarine waaaaaaaaaay back in WSL, but lag was probably a factor (WSL was an online ladder/tournament event years and years ago that drew in progamers probably because of the cash prizes). | ||
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levarien11111
United States61 Posts
On June 14 2011 05:23 xxpack09 wrote: Which is why zergs with 500 APM are Hyuk and hero, not Zero and Jaedong actually jaedong if im not mistaken averages around 400-450 apm per game and having just 50 more isn't an insane jump either so its not that apm is worthless if your using that argument but i will agree sometimes its just spam | ||
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L3gendary
Canada1470 Posts
I've seen sc2 pros with widly varying apms. Some foreign pros are as low as 150 while the fastest players are around 300 before conversion. That's anywhere from 210-420..ish in real time. | ||
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