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[Trans]Learn to watch ZvZ by Shark Part1.

Forum Index > BW General
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jpak
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States5045 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-16 15:30:56
February 15 2011 19:36 GMT
#1
Source: http://esports.dailygame.co.kr/news/read.php?id=39729

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Translator's Note: This was written February 9, 2011, before the 2 MSL semifinals. However, I thought I should post this anyway for the MSL finals.

Original transcript (if u find anything that could be improved, please don't hesitate to post. I'll fix it.):+ Show Spoiler +
안녕하세요. MBC게임 해설 위원 서경종입니다.

아직은 해설 위원이라는 말이 어색하지만 걱정했던 것보다 팬들이 많이 사랑해 주셔서 더 열심히 해야겠다는 의지가 불끈 솟아 오르네요. 부족하지만 앞으로 좋은 해설자라는 이야기를 들을 수 있도록 최선을 다하겠습니다.

오늘 이렇게 데일리e스포츠를 통해 글로 독자 여러분들을 만나게 된 이유는 바로 저그 대 저그전(이하 저저전)에 대한 편견을 없애기 위해서입니다. 제가 저그 출신 해설자라 그런지 몰라도 저저전대한 애정이 다른 해설 위원들보다 남다르다고 생각합니다. 그저 빨리 끝난다고 여타의 동족전보다 홀대 받았던 저저전대한 재미를 더해주기 위해 이렇게 펜을 들었습니다.

저저전을 보는 관전 포인트는 크게 네 가지로 분류됩니다. 빌드 오더가 갈리고 저글링이나 뮤탈리스크 교전으로 끝나는 것이 전부가 아닙니다. 그 사이에서 펼쳐지는 치열한 심리전과 보이지 않는 자원 활용 등이 여타의 동족전에서는 느낄 수 없는 짜릿함을 느끼게 해주는 대결이 바로 저저전입니다.

피디팝 MSL 4강이 4명의 저그로 채워지면서 4강은 물론 결승전까지 저저전으로 확정됐죠. 팬들 사이에서는 재미 없는 경기를 계속 봐야 한다는 우려의 목소리가 높은 것으로 알고 있습니다. 하지만 그 어떤 종족전보다도 재미있는 저저전에 대한 키포인트를 알고 있다면 이런 우려도 사라질 것이라 기대합니다.

저저전을 더 재미있게 보는 방법을 두 편에 나눠 알려드리고자 합니다. 지금부터 저저전의 매력 속으로 빠져들어 보시죠.

◆제3의 자원에 주목하라
테란과 프로토스는 미네랄과 개스라는 두 가지 자원만이 주어지는 것과 달리 저그에게는 그것보다 더 중요한 제3의 자원이 있습니다. 저그는 제3의 자원을 놓고 시간마다 어떤 선택을 하느냐에 따라 승부가 결정되곤 합니다. 테란과 프로토스에게 존재하지 않는 제3의 자원이란 아주 오묘합니다.

저저전에서 등장하는 제3의 자원은 바로 '라바'입니다. 유닛 숫자에 들어가지도 않고 유심히 들여다보지 않으면 절대로 알 수 없는 자원이 바로 라바입니다. 저그의 모든 유닛이 탄생하는 기반이고 어떤 유닛이 탄생하느냐도 알 수 있는 중요 자원입니다.

레어업그레이드를 완료한 뒤 스파이어가 완성되기 전까지 대략 20개의 라바가 소요됩니다. 이 과정에서 선수들은 저글링과 드론 수를 조절합니다. 드론을 활용해 어떤 방어타워를 선택하고 건설하게 되는지도 중요하겠죠.

현재 저저전에서 알려진 다양한 빌드오더는 결국 라바의 개수를 어떻게 활용하냐에 따라 결정됩니다. 또한 유닛을 잃는 것도 단순히 자원 손실만을 의미하는 것이 아닌, 라바의 손실이라는 것을 알고 보면 더 재미있게 볼 수 있겠죠.

저저전의 가장 큰 키포인트, 바로 라바의 효율적인 활용을 자세히 지켜본다면 초반부터 눈을 뗄 수 없을 것입니다. 같은 빌드 오더를 선택했다 하더라도 라바의 활용이 다르면 전혀 다른 운영이 될 수 있음을 꼭 기억해 주시기 바랍니다.

◆오버로드와 저글링으로 초반 전략 파악
독자 여러분들은 저저전에서 전략 대결은 언제부터 시작된다고 생각하시나요? 대부분의 사람들은 빌드를 선택하는 시점이라고 생각할 것입니다. 하지만 저저전은 상대방 빌드가 어떤 것인지 확인하는 시점부터 치열한 전략 싸움이 시작됩니다. 그래야지만 자신이 공격을 해야할지 수비 모드를 갖춰야 할지 라바를 어떻게 사용해야 할지 결정되기 때문입니다.

상대방의 빌드를 확인하는 시점은 크게 3가지입니다. 오버로드나 드론으로 상대 진영을 확인할 때, 내 저글링이 상대방의 저글링 숫자를 확인할 때 그리고 마지막으로 양쪽의 두 번째 오버로드가 서로 교차할 때입니다.

처음 두 가지 사례는 상대 진영을 직접 정찰하는 것이므로 당연히 전략을 확인하게 됩니다. 그러나 마지막의 경우 두 번째 오버로드 교차 시점에서는 대체 어떻게 상대 빌드를 유추할 수 있을까요? 이것도 생각해 보면 쉽습니다.

두 번째 오버로드가 서로 가운데서 만난다면 서로 9드론처럼 드론을 적게 생산한 빌드가 아니라는 것을 확인하는 것이기 때문에 상대 저글링 공격에서 자유로울 수 있습니다. 그래서 자신은 드론을 생산하며 부유하게 플레이 할 수 있게 되죠. 첫 번째 오버로드가 마주친 경우 두 번째 오버로드가 늦게 온다면 상대는 9드론을 했다는 이야기입니다. 서로 비슷한 타이밍에 만난다면 9드론이 아니라는 것을 확인할 수 있게 되는 것이죠. 하지만 이를 역 이용해 두 번째 오버로드를 일부로 늦게 보내 상대가 9드론을 의심하게 하는 심리전을 걸수도 있습니다. 이처럼 저그 대 저그전은 두 번째 오버로드 정찰 타이밍 하나에서도 심리전과 빌드 오더를 알아차리려는 치열한 눈치 싸움이 전개됩니다.

두 번째 오버로드가 마주칠 때부터 선수들은 상대방 빌드를 유추하게 되고 그에 따라 경기를 어떻게 풀어나가야 할지 큰 그림을 그리게 됩니다. 저저전의 라바 선택 싸움은 바로 지금부터 시작됩니다.

이 글을 읽으신 분들은 앞으로 저저전을 지켜볼 때 초반 3분은 눈이 뚫어져라 경기를 지켜보실 겁니다. 각각 선수들의 입장에서 상대 빌드를 예측해 보고 저글링 6기만 보고도 빌드를 알게 되는 신기한 경험을 하실 수 있을 것입니다.

다음 시간에는 저저전을 재미있게 보는 포인트 중 남은 두 가지 포인트에 대해 알려드리겠습니다. 많은 관심 부탁 드립니다.

Hello. This is MBCGame Commentator Shark.

Being called a commentator still feels awkward to me, but thanks to the love of the fans I am very motivated to work harder. Although I fall short in many areas, I will do my best to be called a good commentator.

The reason I am writing this here today is to try to eliminate some preconceived notions that you might’ve had about ZvZ. It might be because I played Zerg before, but I feel my affection for ZvZ is different from those of other commentators. I picked up my pen to make ZvZ, a matchup that’s very much neglected compared to other mirrors due to the short duration of the games, more fun to watch and play.

In ZvZ, there are 4 major points a spectator has to look for. ZvZ is not just about the BO advantage/disadvantage and ling/muta fights. In between there are very intense mind games and management of a hard-to-see resource that gives ZvZ a sense of excitement that other mirror matchups lack.

PDPOP MSL Semifinals have been filled with 4 zergs, ensuring not just ZvZ semifinals but also ZvZ finals. I am aware that between the fans there are concerns about having to keep watching boring games. However, I believe if the fans know these key points and realize that ZvZ is the most fun matchup, those concerns will disappear.

I have split this into two parts. Now let’s immerse ourselves in the beauty of ZvZ.

1. Focus on the 3rd resource.

Whereas Terran and Protoss only get two resources to manage, mineral and gas, Zerg has a 3rd resource that is the most important. How a Zerg uses the 3rd resource over time makes the difference between victory and defeat. This 3rd resource that Terran and Protoss lack is very profound.

The 3rd resource that comes up in ZvZ is “Larva.” It doesn’t come up on the unit count and, unless examined very closely, stays unknown. It is the basis from which all Zerg units are born, and makes itself known no matter which unit is produced.

Between the start of the game and when the Spire goes up, you need about 20 larvae. During this time, players adjust their number of Zerglings and Drones. Deciding what defensive building to build with a Drone is also very important.

The various known build orders in the matchup are, in the end, decided by how one uses one’s larvae. I think you can enjoy ZvZ more if you know that losing a unit in ZvZ is not just a waste of mineral and gas, but also of larvae.

If you realize this key point in ZvZ, larvae management, I don’t think you’ll be able to take your eyes off the game from even the beginning. Please remember that even if both players chose the same build order, their management of the game can be different if they used their larvae differently.

2. Scouting the opponent’s strategy with Overlords and Zerglings.

When do you spectators think the strategic battle begins in ZvZ? Most people think that it begins when you choose a particular build order. However, it actually begins when you scout your opponent’s build. Only then can you determine whether to attack or defend and how to use your larvae.

There are 3 major points in the game when you can see your opponent’s build (T/N: I think this is assuming a 2 player map, although this can occur even in 3 or 4-player maps):

1. You scouted your opponent’s position with your overlord or drone (T/N: scouting with a drone in ZvZ? Really?)

2. You scouted how many Zerglings your opponent has with your own Zerglings

3. You and your opponent’s 2nd Overlords cross paths.

Now the first 2 points obviously help you determine the opponent’s strategy as you scout his position directly. However, how does the final point, when both 2nd Overlords meet, help you determine what your opponent’s build is? It’s easy if you think of this this way

If the 2nd Overlords meet in the center of the map, then both can be assured that the other didn’t go a build where you get a 2nd Overlord late, such as a 9Pool, and can be freed of the burden of an early ling attack. Therefore, you can produce more Drones and play more economically. After the first Overlords meet, if the opponent’s 2nd Overlord is late, then that means your opponent went 9Pool. If the timing of your 2nd Overlord and his 2nd Overlord is about the same, then you can determine he didn’t go 9Pool. However, some manipulate this fact and deliberately send their 2nd overlord later than usual and make the opponent think that he went 9Pool. So, you can see how in ZvZ the psychological warfare and the fight to see your opponent’s build order can be shown by just this example of the 2nd Overlords.

Once the 2nd Overlords meet the players can infer what the opponent’s build is and from that they decide how to play the game out from there. The larvae management fight in ZvZ begins from that point.

The readers of this article, the next time they watch a ZvZ, will spend the first three minutes of the game staring deeply into the screen. They’ll be able to step into each player’s shoes and be able to predict the opponent’s build and be able to know his build by scouting his 6 lings.

Next time I’ll reveal the remaining 2 points to having fun while watching ZvZ. I hope to see you next time.

EDIT: Part 2 has now been translated and posted. It can be found here:Part 2
CJ Entusman #50! #1 클템 fan TL!
henjebenje
Profile Joined August 2010
Australia73 Posts
February 15 2011 19:40 GMT
#2
thanks for the post! very interesting!
The Sun & the Moon
Holgerius
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Sweden16951 Posts
February 15 2011 19:50 GMT
#3
Interesting, ZvZ is the MU I understand the least by far.

Thanks!
I believe in the almighty Grötslev! -- I am never serious and you should never believe a thing I say. Including the previous sentence.
LunarDestiny
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
United States4177 Posts
February 15 2011 19:51 GMT
#4
Nice timing by Shark to say this before the Final. Now people don't need to complain ZvZ sucks.
nosliw
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States2716 Posts
February 15 2011 19:51 GMT
#5
awesome article, thanks for the translation
Essbee
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Canada2371 Posts
February 15 2011 19:52 GMT
#6
Nice read but I'm probably one of the few who already like ZvZ. I like how this match up is micro-heavy but this adds more excitement as I read about the 3rd resource
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
February 15 2011 20:01 GMT
#7
Interesting stuff! Thanks a lot for translating.
RIP Aaliyah
KazKamasa
Profile Joined June 2009
Sweden186 Posts
February 15 2011 20:02 GMT
#8
On February 16 2011 04:52 Essbee wrote:
Nice read but I'm probably one of the few who already like ZvZ. I like how this match up is micro-heavy but this adds more excitement as I read about the 3rd resource


Same here =)
"time line? time is not made out of lines it is made out of circles, that is why clocks are round"- Caboose
TheNessman
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States4158 Posts
February 15 2011 20:05 GMT
#9
Cool! I'm really glad this got translated, ZvZ is so intense! I'm really pumped for the finals, honestly.
~~! youtube.com/xmungam1 !~~
Murderotica
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Vatican City State2594 Posts
February 15 2011 20:13 GMT
#10
Thank you translators and thank you Shark! Great initiative to do a piece like this.
ǝsnoɥ ssɐlƃ ɐ uı sǝuoʇs ʍoɹɥʇ ʇ,uop || sıʇɹoɟ ɹǝdɯǝs
IamBach
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States1059 Posts
February 15 2011 20:57 GMT
#11
Thanks translators! Shark is great too. Wow great read. I actually always like important zvz games because its so nerve-racking!!
Just listen http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__lCZeePG48
jpak
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States5045 Posts
February 15 2011 21:02 GMT
#12
WHO SAID ZvZ IS BORING?!
CJ Entusman #50! #1 클템 fan TL!
Ryo
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
8787 Posts
February 15 2011 21:08 GMT
#13
Thanks for translating.

I'm actually looking forward to the finals!
영원히 엠비씨게임 히어로 팬.
BisuDagger
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Bisutopia19209 Posts
February 15 2011 21:12 GMT
#14
I'm glad shark is reaching out. He's going to be fun to listen to. I'm so excited for this ZvZ. fake yellow vs luxury was one of the most exciting match ups I've seen. (Sry to reference those names ^_^ but the games were good);
ModeratorFormer Afreeca Starleague Caster: http://afreeca.tv/ASL2ENG2
Djagulingu
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Germany3605 Posts
February 15 2011 21:17 GMT
#15
Wow, (Z)Shark is my hero and favorite commentator right now. He sure will help me have more understanding on ZvZ.
"windows bash is a steaming heap of shit" tofucake
Random_0
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
United States1163 Posts
February 15 2011 22:06 GMT
#16
On February 16 2011 04:36 jpak wrote:
Please remember that even if both players chose the same build order, their management of the game can be different if they used their larvae differently.


Am I ignorant? How can use of the larvae be different if the build order is the same?
tenacity
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
1587 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-15 22:15:07
February 15 2011 22:12 GMT
#17
On February 16 2011 07:06 Random_0 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 16 2011 04:36 jpak wrote:
Please remember that even if both players chose the same build order, their management of the game can be different if they used their larvae differently.


Am I ignorant? How can use of the larvae be different if the build order is the same?


i guess he refers to the fact that even though the build order is the same, each player has to decide for what he uses his larves for ,i.e., the drone/ling or the muta/scourges ratio.

simple example: one players invests 200 minerals on lings only, while the other only spends 150 mins on lings and 50 on a drone.
It does not need to be fun to be fun.
valaki
Profile Joined June 2009
Hungary2476 Posts
February 15 2011 22:15 GMT
#18
On February 16 2011 07:06 Random_0 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 16 2011 04:36 jpak wrote:
Please remember that even if both players chose the same build order, their management of the game can be different if they used their larvae differently.


Am I ignorant? How can use of the larvae be different if the build order is the same?


Because the build order ends when you get your mutas out. After that it's up to you whether you mass zergling and attack from 2 fronts, or make too many scourges because you are behind in muta count or upgrades (attack or defense)
ggaemo fan
Jackal03
Profile Joined October 2009
Brazil7469 Posts
February 15 2011 22:16 GMT
#19
To me, ZvZ is the best mirror

never underrstand the hate this match gets...
BW is back
Kyuukyuu
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Canada6263 Posts
February 15 2011 22:17 GMT
#20
Management of the larvae after the build order. So things like a pre-muta timing ling attack vs. saving up some larvae for mutas, stuff like that.
sCCrooked
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Korea (South)1306 Posts
February 15 2011 22:18 GMT
#21
Its about time ZvZ was looked more in depth from an actual progamer's perspective. Thanks Shark! b'-')b
Enlightened in an age of anti-intellectualism and quotidian repetitiveness of asinine assumptive thinking. Best lycan guide evar --> "Fixing solo queue all pick one game at a time." ~KwarK-
-Frog-
Profile Joined February 2009
United States514 Posts
February 15 2011 22:22 GMT
#22
On February 16 2011 07:06 Random_0 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 16 2011 04:36 jpak wrote:
Please remember that even if both players chose the same build order, their management of the game can be different if they used their larvae differently.


Am I ignorant? How can use of the larvae be different if the build order is the same?


he's talking about how a player uses their larvae after they've thrown down their pool/hatch/gas.

both of us can go 12 hatch but you could make 6 lings when your pool finishes and i could make 3 drones.
powered by coffee, driven by hate.
slappy
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States1271 Posts
February 15 2011 22:35 GMT
#23
I, for one, really enjoyed the recent zvzs. JD vs Hydra series was especially awesome even without a hive tech game.

Thank you Shark for shedding some light on us . I have liked his commentary, even though I can't understand him lol
jaedong imba
Harem
Profile Joined November 2007
United States11390 Posts
February 15 2011 22:37 GMT
#24
On February 16 2011 07:06 Random_0 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 16 2011 04:36 jpak wrote:
Please remember that even if both players chose the same build order, their management of the game can be different if they used their larvae differently.


Am I ignorant? How can use of the larvae be different if the build order is the same?

Consider what he said about the overlords. Let's pretend that the map is Benzene and you 12pooled. Your opponent has also 12pooled but he has hidden ovie to make you worried/think he went 9speed/9lair etc. When your pool pops, you are going to be using all larva on lings and even pulling 2 drones to send to nat to help defend what you think is coming (also taking a guy off gas and going speed first). Meanwhile, he has been droning the whole time and probably went lair first. (also, remember just how long the rush distance are on the map)

There's other stuff too but this should help give basic idea.
Moderator。◕‿◕。
Holgerius
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Sweden16951 Posts
February 15 2011 22:42 GMT
#25
Can't wait for part 2. I think I would appreciate the MU a lot more with better knowledge. Wish I knew korean so I could understand the commentators during the games.
I believe in the almighty Grötslev! -- I am never serious and you should never believe a thing I say. Including the previous sentence.
Caos2
Profile Joined November 2008
United States1728 Posts
February 15 2011 22:49 GMT
#26
ZvZ can be fun, especially the tense ones.
As a matter of fact, one of my favorite games of all time is a ZvZ (no, it's not a Hive tech game):
Calm vs Effort in Matchpoint
DerNebel
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Denmark648 Posts
February 15 2011 22:55 GMT
#27
On February 16 2011 06:02 jpak wrote:
WHO SAID ZvZ IS BORING?!


What jpak said. Though I'm afraid the final will turn out like the Bacchus OSL 2009, where (Z)Jaedong just stomped right over (Z)YellOw[ArnC] in like 30 minutes. (Z)Hydra just seems like such a ZvZ BEAST right now that only Jaedong really can rival it and he is out of the picture now.

But still, Shark is awesome. Really great that he's reaching out and explaining ZvZ. It is just so difficult to see anything but BO wins and mutaling micro in the matchup if you don't know what to look for.
puppykiller
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States3126 Posts
February 15 2011 23:02 GMT
#28
atleast this makes it clear to me why ret had so much trouble learning zvz once he went to korea. I just assumed the match up wasn't so hard since people so often consider it to be based on openings
Why would I play sctoo when I can play BW?
OmniscientSC2
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States713 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-15 23:13:35
February 15 2011 23:12 GMT
#29
I love playing ZvZ so much, and playing it is awesome. I just dislike people who view it as ling/muta :X
"Did you know about Day and the Wicker Basket?" - Harem "Hi, I'm from Texas." -TLO
swanized
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
Canada2480 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-15 23:14:25
February 15 2011 23:13 GMT
#30
ZvZ is really fun and this article actually enlightened me on a few points, really interesting read!
Writer
Conversion
Profile Joined April 2010
United States3308 Posts
February 15 2011 23:14 GMT
#31
On February 16 2011 08:12 OmniscientSC2 wrote:
I love playing ZvZ so much, and playing it is awesome. I just dislike people who view it as ling/muta :X


grr ninja edit LOL

hydra stomping is always fun to watch <3

moreso if i can understand zvz

go shark!
Megaliskuu
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5123 Posts
February 15 2011 23:18 GMT
#32
This is amazing :O ty!~
|BW>Everything|Add me on star2 KR server TheMuTaL.675 for practice games :)|NEX clan| https://www.dotabuff.com/players/183104694
Weasel-
Profile Joined June 2009
Canada1556 Posts
February 15 2011 23:20 GMT
#33
I thought this was pretty standard stuff. But then again I actually played Zerg (got to C), so maybe this just seems like common knowledge.

ZvZ is easily the best mirror and a very fun matchup to play and watch.

Thanks for translating.
Spica
Profile Joined December 2010
United States5582 Posts
February 15 2011 23:25 GMT
#34
Thank you very much for the translation! It's great to see Shark trying to open the public's eyes about what real ZvZ is, since he is the first former Zerg progamer commentator. :D

After watching Hydra vs. Jaedong's Bo5 games, they completely changed my mindset of thinking that ZvZs were snorefests to intense micro and mind games. I'm glad that I finally have my eyes opened to the true fun of ZvZ matchups, and hope that I can enjoy them more in the future.
How to pronounce the name: "SPY-ka" | Proud to share the same birthday with Shin (神) Dong Won and the almighty BoxeR | 리쌍도 나무에서 떨어진다. | To YellOw: "2位じゃダメなんですか?" ㅋㅋㅋ | Rest in peace, Violet. 08/23/12
Trowabarton756
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States870 Posts
February 16 2011 01:41 GMT
#35
I guess I felt that this was just common sense....of course it matters heavily who has more larva/who uses their larva to their advantage more....didn't think a lot of people didn't know this...
http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/Trowabarton756
Manifesto7
Profile Blog Joined November 2002
Osaka27136 Posts
February 16 2011 01:44 GMT
#36
Spotlighted.
ModeratorGodfather
amethyst
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States98 Posts
February 16 2011 01:48 GMT
#37
Thanks for translating, can't wait for part 2!
MaxField
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States2386 Posts
February 16 2011 01:55 GMT
#38
I love this, Really want to go watch a bunch of ZvZ now!
"Zerg, so bad it loses to hydras" IdrA.
JerKy
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Korea (South)3013 Posts
February 16 2011 02:03 GMT
#39
Yay Shark!
I remember him from Hyungjoon becomes a Progamer :D
You can type "StarCraft" with just your left hand.
XsebT
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Denmark2980 Posts
February 16 2011 02:08 GMT
#40
Thanks a lot for the translation! Very interesting read!
I really like the matchup before even reading this, so it's just nice to get even more details to look for.
화이팅
thopol
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
Japan4560 Posts
February 16 2011 02:14 GMT
#41
Great article. Thanks a lot for the translation.
Tennet
Profile Joined January 2010
United States1458 Posts
February 16 2011 02:28 GMT
#42
Great read, and <3 shark (considering my quote is from him). After watching hyungjoon becomes a progamer i've been a big fan of him. Thanks for the translation!
"The harder it gets, the more you need to focus on the basics." - Seo Gyung Jong
jimminy_kriket
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
Canada5490 Posts
February 16 2011 02:32 GMT
#43
Very interesting. Thanks for the translation and Thanks to shark for writing this up.
life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery
Wolf
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Korea (South)3290 Posts
February 16 2011 02:33 GMT
#44
A ton of people could learn from this. Thanks Shark!
Commentatorhttp://twitter.com/proxywolf
TL+ Member
Zim23
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1681 Posts
February 16 2011 02:56 GMT
#45
Awesome, I love this.
Do an arranged marriage if she's not completely minging, and don't worry about dancing, get a go-kart, cheers.
buwitre
Profile Joined January 2011
Philippines22 Posts
February 16 2011 03:06 GMT
#46
Thanks so much for this. The translations IMO are a big part of what makes TL such a great resource.
chongu
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Malaysia2584 Posts
February 16 2011 03:15 GMT
#47
Hmmmmm, never bothered much about second overlords :D i always tot overlords meeting would just imply base locations.... never thought abt anything beyond that. cheerio dude : )
SC2 is to BW, what coke is to wine.
Black[CAT]
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Malaysia2589 Posts
February 16 2011 03:29 GMT
#48
Amazing knowledge given out by Shark, stuff's that usually progamers only know. Made me realize that ZvZ is very deep as well.
You mean ESPORTS isnt a synonym for SC2? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ -Proud owner of a Filco Majestouch 2 with Cherry Blue Switches- BW or SC2? Why not both?
HaruHaru
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States988 Posts
February 16 2011 03:39 GMT
#49
ooo interesting can't wait for the other 2 articles
Long live BroodWar!
RYZmooN
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Canada575 Posts
February 16 2011 04:08 GMT
#50
On February 16 2011 05:02 KazKamasa wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 16 2011 04:52 Essbee wrote:
Nice read but I'm probably one of the few who already like ZvZ. I like how this match up is micro-heavy but this adds more excitement as I read about the 3rd resource


Same here =)


not only i love (and pwn) at ZvZ, i LOVE ZvZ matches! i dont care if the game end in a ling fight or muta/plague late game fight but its just sooo king fun to watch!
so count me too!!
How do u doto?
crazeman
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
664 Posts
February 16 2011 04:23 GMT
#51
wow shark from hyunjoon becomes a progamer? I didn't know he became a commentator O_o
Heyoka
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Katowice25012 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-16 05:18:25
February 16 2011 04:27 GMT
#52
This is really cool, thanks a ton for translation. My first thought was to spotlight but Mani always beats me.

looking forward to part 2!
@RealHeyoka | ESL / DreamHack StarCraft Lead
Grobyc
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Canada18410 Posts
February 16 2011 04:46 GMT
#53
I always knew the larva management was considered a 3rd resource, but I never considered overlord timing. Nice tip to pick up. Thanks for translation
If you watch Godzilla backwards it's about a benevolent lizard who helps rebuild a city and then moonwalks into the ocean.
Ack1027
Profile Blog Joined January 2004
United States7873 Posts
February 16 2011 04:49 GMT
#54
Awesome idea by shark. It's one of those ideas that once you hear about it you wonder why nobody tried it before.

Having Nal_rA or Kingdom talk about PvP would be very interesting.
Chef
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
10810 Posts
February 16 2011 05:07 GMT
#55
Thanks for translating this. I like ZvZ (and I like TvT too lol), but TL really needed someone with credibility to get them pumped for the finals. Lots of people disregard these matchups just because of common opinion, when that opinion is really rooted from like 8 years ago and doesn't have much to do with how the game is played now.

LEGEND!! LEGEND!!
Sephy90
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States1785 Posts
February 16 2011 05:17 GMT
#56
Wow this is definitely amazing. Although I have always liked ZvZ I can appreciate it a lot more with all this information that I never knew. He's right haha I'll be glaring at my screen harder the next time I watch a ZvZ and this will definitely make it even more fun to watch ^_^

Thank you so much for translating this! It is very much appreciated. Actually now that I know this, my ZvZ can be improved with this information.
"So I turned the lights off at night and practiced by myself"
Superiorwolf
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
United States5509 Posts
February 16 2011 05:20 GMT
#57
Thanks for the translation! ZvZ was always a matchup I actually enjoyed playing a lot and was my best (although my favorite matchup was probably ZvP, and favorite to watch ZvT). I loved the tiny tiny intricacies that really could make or break a game!
Check out my stream at www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=315053 and follow me on Twitter @EGSuppy! :)
IntoTheWow
Profile Blog Joined May 2004
is awesome32271 Posts
February 16 2011 05:32 GMT
#58
You scout with drones on big maps usually. On some maps you can determine position with the first overlord (3 player maps) or by being lucky with your first OL. On some other maps, like say, colosseum, which are pretty big you can't stay that much time guessing what he's doing (since it has no "ramp" and it's harder to defend and it's "easy" to get an expo.

So you can't really let your opponent take an expo without you taking one, but you can't also take an expo and have the risk of being overran with 9p speedlings. So if you got unlucky with OL scout, you need to drone scout. Or just blind 9 pool and force him not to expo (which could turn bad if he holds )
Moderator<:3-/-<
Zona
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
40426 Posts
February 16 2011 07:43 GMT
#59
Thanks for the translation. I especially like this kind of stuff.
"If you try responding to those absurd posts every day, you become more damaged. So I pay no attention to them at all." Jung Myung Hoon (aka Fantasy), as translated by Kimoleon
Grape
Profile Joined April 2010
145 Posts
February 16 2011 09:22 GMT
#60
Quite an interesting read. ZvZ is deep, deep! Thanks a bunch for the translation. Looking forward for the second part.
lokiM
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States3407 Posts
February 16 2011 09:30 GMT
#61
thanks for translation yo~
You can't fight the feeling.
EdSlyB
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Portugal1621 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-16 10:38:29
February 16 2011 10:38 GMT
#62
Nice reading indeed Although I don't see SC:BW I have found this article very interesting.
aka Wardo
c3rberUs
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Japan11285 Posts
February 16 2011 10:44 GMT
#63
I actually like watching zvz because of how I understand the mu much better than tvt actually. Zvz packs a lot more in-game action for me. Thanks for the translation ^^.
WriterMovie, 진영화 : "StarCraft will never die".
shucklesors
Profile Joined May 2010
Singapore1176 Posts
February 16 2011 13:02 GMT
#64
ive always wanted a progamer (or exprogamer) to in certain large depth discuss about a match up for brood war;
it's so standard to progamers but to Cs or even Bs who rely on instinct on iCCup might probably never take into such account such minor things, like when you hear interviews about strategies for PL they describe their strategy extremely plainly. glad to have shark doing BW fans a big favor!
ZEEEPh
Profile Joined January 2011
Portugal97 Posts
February 16 2011 13:27 GMT
#65
very interesting read
never thought of ZvZ like this... very good
looking forward for part 2!
therockmanxx
Profile Joined July 2010
Peru1174 Posts
February 16 2011 15:53 GMT
#66
This is very deep indeed
Larvae management blow my mind xD
Tekken ProGamer
MangoTango
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States3670 Posts
February 16 2011 16:27 GMT
#67
Hive ZvZ baffles me, which is awesome because great is in these finals. Hope to see at least 1 Hive game, because I mostly just throw up my arms and am very confused at Defilers and Hydras standing up opponent's swarms and ridiculous stuff like that.
"One fish, two fish, red fish, BLUE TANK!" - Artosis
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