• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 05:08
CEST 11:08
KST 18:08
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Season 1 - Final Week6[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall12HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0
Community News
Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll1Team TLMC #5 - Submission extension1Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation17$25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced7Weekly Cups (June 30 - July 6): Classic Doubles7
StarCraft 2
General
Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll TL Team Map Contest #5: Presented by Monster Energy Team TLMC #5 - Submission extension RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings
Tourneys
RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series $5,100+ SEL Season 2 Championship (SC: Evo) WardiTV Mondays Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome
Brood War
General
Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL BW General Discussion A cwal.gg Extension - Easily keep track of anyone [Guide] MyStarcraft [ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall
Tourneys
[BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China [Megathread] Daily Proleagues 2025 ACS Season 2 Qualifier Small VOD Thread 2.0
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile CCLP - Command & Conquer League Project The PlayStation 5
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Summer Games Done Quick 2025! Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine The Accidental Video Game Porn Archive
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NBA General Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Men Take Risks, Women Win Ga…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 520 users

[Trans]Learn to watch ZvZ by Shark Part2

Forum Index > BW General
Post a Reply
1 2 3 Next All
jpak
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States5045 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-16 13:28:30
February 16 2011 13:27 GMT
#1
This is the 2nd part of this 2-part series. The first part can be found here:Part 1

Source:http://esports.dailygame.co.kr/news/read.php?id=40069

Original Transcript (point out anything that could be improved. It will be fixed) :+ Show Spoiler +
안녕하세요. MBC게임 해설 위원 서경종 입니다.

저그 대 저그전(이하 저저전)을 더 재미있게 보는 법을 알려 드리기 위해 적었던 글이 생각보다 큰 호응을 얻어 저도 기분이 좋네요. 제 글을 통해 저저전을 보는 시각이 달라졌다는 이야기를 보니 뿌듯하다는 생각도 듭니다.

얼마 전 MSL 4강에서 펼쳐진 신동원과 이제동의 저저전에서도 라바 활용이 얼마나 중요한지 보여주는 경기가 많이 나왔습니다. 특히 이제동이 몰래 해처리를 건설해 저글링 한방 교전에서 승리를 거둔 4세트에서 라바를 통한 심리전이 얼마나 중요한지 여실히 증명됐는데요. 이제동이 1해처리라고 생각했던 신동원은 상대가 3개의 라바에서 생산되는 저글링 숫자만 생각해 결국은 몰래 라바를 모은 이제동의 기습 공격에 당할 수밖에 없었죠. 몰래 해처리는 결국 라바를 늘리기 위한 심리전이라는 사실 이제는 아셨죠?

오늘은 저저전을 보는 또다른 재미 두 가지를 더 알려드리고자 합니다. 역전이 잘 나오지 않는 저저전에서 역전을 일궈낼 수 있는 방법을 알고 본다면 불리한 상황에 놓인 선수들이 왜 저런 플레이를 펼치는지 알 수 있을 테니까요.

◆빌드 오더를 뒤집는 새로운 패턴
저저전이 재미없다고 말하는 사람들은 대부분 빌드오더에 따라 경기 결과 이미 정해지기 때문이라고 지적합니다. 실제로 저저전은 오랜 시간 동안 빌드 오더에 지배됐던 것이 사실이고요. 어떤 빌드를 선택하냐에 따라서 너무나 많은 것들이 결정되고 선수들의 컨트롤이나 운영으로 불리함을 극복하지 못했기 때문이었죠.

지금도 빌드 오더는 저저전에 큰 비중을 차지하고 있습니다. 그러나 예전과는 다르게 빌드오더 때문에 경기 승패가 좌우될 확률이 많이 줄어들었죠. 2006년부터 저그전은 눈부시게 발전했고 현재 각 빌드 오더의 장단점을 잘 알고있는 선수들은 발전된 컨트롤과 미묘한 라바 활용을 통해 많은 변수를 만들어가고 있습니다.

최근 저그전이 발전할 수 있었던 것은 '뭉치기 컨트롤' 덕분인데요. 아무리 컨트롤을 잘한다고 해도 경기를 역전하기 힘들었던 예전에 비해 최근에는 드론 뭉치기와 뮤탈리스크 뭉치기가 발견되면서 컨트롤만으로 역전승을 일궈내기도 합니다.

'신저저전'이라고 부르기에 전혀 부족함이 없는 최근 양상은 현존 최고의 저그 이제동이 만들어낸 것이라고 봐도 무방합니다. 컨트롤만으로 상대를 압도해 역전승을 만들어내던 이제동의 경기 덕분에 저저전에 대한 컨트롤의 중요성이 부각되기 시작했죠. 저저전 역사는 이제동 선수의 이전과 이후로 역사가 구분될 만큼 이제동이 미친 영향은 지배적이라 할 수 있습니다.

◆저저전의 미래 하이브 체제
저저전은 지금까지도 발전하고 있고 이전에는 상상할 수도 없는 경지에 도달했습니다. 발전에 발전을 거듭하고 있는 저저전은 이제 테테전과 프프전에서나 그 어떤 종족전에서도 찾아볼 수 없는 규모와 새로운 유닛 조합을 맞이할 준비를 하고 있습니다. 바로 하이브 저그전입니다.

하이브 저그전 창시자는 삼성전자 칸에서 팀플레이를 담당했던 저그 이재황이라고 합니다. 차명환 선수가 바로 그 직계 제자가 되겠네요. 그리고 이와는 전혀 다른 계통에서 독립적으로 발전한 웅진 스타즈 김명운이 하이브 운영의 또 다른 계보라 볼 수 있죠.

지금까지 방송 경기를 유추해 보면 하이브 저저전을 대표하는 것은 퀸, 디파일러, 디바우러, 울크라, 럴커, 라이더스 커널입니다. 일일이 나열하기조차 힘든 화려한 마법이 난무할 하이브 저저전은 그야말로 신세계 별천지죠.

하이브 운영의 핵심은 아직까지 알려지지 않았습니다. 하이브 운영을 하는 선수들이 비밀에 대해 일체 함구하고 있기 때문입니다. 그만큼 하이브 운영은 아직도 아는 선수들만 할수 있는 비밀의 무공비급이라고 볼 수 있습니다.

단지 딱 하나 그들이 한결같이 말하는 것은 "모르는 사람은 무조건 진다"입니다.

이번 피디팝 MSL 결승전은 삼성전자 차명환과 하이트 신동원이 대결을 펼치게 됩니다. 하이브 운영의 대가인 차명환과 레어 단계에서 최강 이제동까지 완파한 신동원의 대결은 하이브와 레어의 대결이 될 가능성이 높죠. 과연 신동원이 하이브 저저전에 대해 어떻게 대처할지 지켜보는 일도 흥미로울 것으로 보입니다.

새로운 신저그전을 볼 가능성이 높은 이번 결승전 놓치지 마시기 바랍니다.

[image loading]
Uploaded with imgur

February 16, 2011.

Hello, this is MBCGame Commentator Shark.

I’m very happy that the first article I wrote on how to have fun watching ZvZ got a lot more response than I thought. I’m satisfied to hear that the article changed how readers viewed ZvZ.
A little while ago, there was the MSL Ro4 between Hydra and Jaedong. In that series, it showed the importance of larvae management. Especially Set 4, in which Jaedong did a proxy hatchery then won the ling battle, displayed fully the larvae mind games that is so crucial to the matchup. Hydra thought that Jaedong only had one hatchery and only accounted for one hatchery’s worth of larvae, but Jaedong gathered larvae secretly through the proxy hatchery, so Hydra could not do anything against the ling break. Now do you see that the proxy hatchery is a ploy to secretly gather more larvae?

Today I reveal 2 more fun points in ZvZ. Once you know how to comeback from a disadvantage and win in ZvZ which doesn’t have a lot of comeback wins, you’ll be able to see why a player in a bad situation would choose to play a certain way.

3. The new pattern of overcoming a build order disadvantage.

Those who say ZvZ is boring say that the game’s already decided by the build order most of the time. Honestly, for a long time ZvZ HAS been decided by the build orders. Too much was already decided by the build order, and the players couldn’t overcome it with unit control or management.

Even now in ZvZ, the build order carries a lot of weight. However, compared to before, the probability of a game being decided by a build order has decreased sharply. From 2006, the Zerg race has advanced dramatically, and the players who know the pros and cons of each build order create tons of variables in the matchup through time-tested unit control and subtle use of larvae.

The advance of the modern Zerg race can be attributed to “stacked Mutalisk control.” It was hard to comeback from a bad position before no matter how good your control was, but now, with the discovery of drone and Mutalisk stacking, there are times when a player won from behind with pure micro.

The person who brought forth what we can call today “Modern ZvZ” is today’s strongest Zerg, Jaedong. Thanks to Jaedong, who won many times from behind and overwhelmed his opponents with sheer micro, micro in ZvZ began to highlight its importance. The fact that you can split the history of ZvZ into “Before Jaedong” and “After Jaedong” shows how dominating his influence is on the matchup.

4. Hive tech, the future of ZvZ

ZvZ is advancing even today, and has reached a plateau not thought possible. ZvZ, with progress after progress, is now preparing new unit compositions and patterns not seen in TvT, PvP, or any other matchup. This is Hive tech ZvZ.

The founder of the Hive-tech Zerg is JiHyun, long-time Samsung Khan 2v2 player. Great could be seen as his apprentice. Another progamer who developed Hive-tech independent of these two is Woongjin Star’s Zero.

If we look at broadcasted Hive-tech games, the things that represent hive-tech ZvZ are queens, defilers, devourers, ultras, lurkers, and nydus canals. Hive-tech, which is rampant with too many splendid magic to list, is a totally new world.

The core to Hive-tech ZvZ has not yet been revealed. The reason is because those who use hive-tech are holding their tongues. Therefore, hive-tech right now is something that only those who know the secrets can use.

The only thing they’ll say is: “those who don’t know will always lose.”

In PDPOP MSL Finals, great of Samsung Khan will go up against hydra of hite Entus. This matchup of great, the master of hive-tech, and hydra, who beat down the strongest Zerg Jaedong in Lair tech, will probably be the battle of Hive vs. Lair. It will also be fun to see how hydra will deal with hive-tech ZvZ.

Do not miss this MSL final because there’s a good chance you could see a new kind of ZvZ.
CJ Entusman #50! #1 클템 fan TL!
ZEEEPh
Profile Joined January 2011
Portugal97 Posts
February 16 2011 13:41 GMT
#2
good read once again!
this further increases one's way of seeing a matchup deemed lucky-based for a long time...
keep the good work!
vOdToasT
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Sweden2870 Posts
February 16 2011 13:43 GMT
#3
Heh. Very well, I shall watch the MSL finals.
If it's stupid but it works, then it's not stupid* (*Or: You are stupid for losing to it, and gotta git gud)
Caos2
Profile Joined November 2008
United States1728 Posts
February 16 2011 13:47 GMT
#4
Thanks for the translation! This new insight in ZvZ is very helpful.

And do not forget, MSL Finals is this Saturday! Hydra fighting!
[sc1f]eonzerg
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Belgium6557 Posts
February 16 2011 13:47 GMT
#5
good job bro.really enjoy
Iplaythings
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Denmark9110 Posts
February 16 2011 13:51 GMT
#6
let it be known

As allways zvz was allways decided by small stuff, makes it a ton of fun to theorycraft about what happend when sometihng goes wrong in the "build order loss" rethoric
In the woods, there lurks..
Chambo
Profile Joined May 2010
Brazil32 Posts
February 16 2011 14:07 GMT
#7
(Z)Shark is a great guy !! gl !!
soccercop
Profile Joined August 2006
Fiji305 Posts
February 16 2011 14:08 GMT
#8
This article is well written and translated. I read Part 1 few hours ago. Both articles are great. Thanks.
To defy your destiny makes you indestructible
Yurie
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
11814 Posts
February 16 2011 14:14 GMT
#9
They are well written, it still doesn't change the fact that it is hard to tell who is winning a battle until you see a lonesome mutalisk left. ^^
alffla
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Hong Kong20321 Posts
February 16 2011 14:30 GMT
#10
hYPED FOR MSL FINALS NOW :O
Graphicssavior[gm] : What is a “yawn” rape ;; Masumune - It was the year of the pig for those fucking defilers. Chill - A clinic you say? okum: SC without Korean yelling is like porn without sex. konamix: HAPPY BIRTHDAY MOMMY!
Keniji
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Netherlands2569 Posts
February 16 2011 15:16 GMT
#11
On February 16 2011 23:30 alffla wrote:
hYPED FOR MSL FINALS NOW :O


haha... I didn't really looked forward to the MSL finals, but know that I have read point 4 i'm so hyped. wow.

I knew there might be Hive play involved in the finals, but how shark explained the consequences it might have makes this final really interesting.
BLinD-RawR
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
ALLEYCAT BLUES50118 Posts
February 16 2011 15:38 GMT
#12
hydra is someone who I think plays in a way that reacts to what the opponent does,so I feel that seeing a hive tech ZvZ won't be impossible.
Brood War EICWoo Jung Ho, never forget.| Twitter: @BLinDRawR
TL+ Member
therockmanxx
Profile Joined July 2010
Peru1174 Posts
February 16 2011 15:49 GMT
#13
If he can beat in zvz with Hive tech in THE FINALS
Im pretty sure it would change the way zvz is play forever !!!
Tekken ProGamer
Lebesgue
Profile Joined October 2008
4542 Posts
February 16 2011 16:09 GMT
#14
These articles are very timely. Good marketing by MBC. I guess they learnt they lessons from MSL Avalon.

Point 4 actually made me really hyped for the final and the first article changed a bit my way I look at ZvZ
Sprouter
Profile Joined December 2009
United States1724 Posts
February 16 2011 16:24 GMT
#15
thx for translating shark ftw!!
dcberkeley
Profile Joined July 2009
Canada844 Posts
February 16 2011 16:31 GMT
#16
tbh, I wish he wrote more. It's like he's about to break into a point in depth but then it just stops.
Moktira is da bomb
miragev2
Profile Joined May 2010
United Kingdom104 Posts
February 16 2011 16:40 GMT
#17
wow.. shark knows how to hype things up.
whoop
hacklebeast
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States5090 Posts
February 16 2011 16:42 GMT
#18
Hmm, surprised that GGplay didn't get a mention. As I understand it, he was the one who started hive play in the Woongjin house, and that zero's work was an application and expansion.
Protoss: Best, Paralyze, Jangbi, Nal_Ra || Terran: Oov, Boxer, Fantasy, Hiya|| Zerg: Yellow, Zero
TheDefiler_Saves
Profile Joined December 2010
Norway97 Posts
February 16 2011 17:02 GMT
#19
Thank you for the translation!

If hive tech became standard in zvz it would be so much better.
Ryo
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
8787 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-16 17:15:25
February 16 2011 17:13 GMT
#20
Great read, especially the last part about Hive tech.

Apparently there was some trash talking by Hydra at the MSL media conference. He said he's confident of winning 3-0. He's also practicing with the Woongjin zergs for the final.
영원히 엠비씨게임 히어로 팬.
1 2 3 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 1h 52m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Nina 241
StarCraft: Brood War
Sea 2447
PianO 608
Stork 262
BeSt 239
firebathero 83
Rush 75
Leta 55
JulyZerg 43
Shine 31
Noble 18
[ Show more ]
Bale 14
Dota 2
ODPixel685
monkeys_forever566
XcaliburYe416
League of Legends
JimRising 527
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K950
shoxiejesuss435
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King162
Westballz16
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor143
Other Games
ceh9684
Fuzer 260
SortOf159
crisheroes64
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick4673
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 13 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH377
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• lizZardDota2194
League of Legends
• HappyZerGling106
Upcoming Events
Wardi Open
1h 52m
Replay Cast
1d
WardiTV European League
1d 6h
ShoWTimE vs sebesdes
Percival vs NightPhoenix
Shameless vs Nicoract
Krystianer vs Scarlett
ByuN vs uThermal
Harstem vs HeRoMaRinE
PiGosaur Monday
1d 14h
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
2 days
Replay Cast
2 days
The PondCast
3 days
Replay Cast
3 days
Epic.LAN
4 days
CranKy Ducklings
5 days
[ Show More ]
Epic.LAN
5 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
5 days
Bonyth vs Sziky
Dewalt vs Hawk
Hawk vs QiaoGege
Sziky vs Dewalt
Mihu vs Bonyth
Zhanhun vs QiaoGege
QiaoGege vs Fengzi
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Online Event
6 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
6 days
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
Liquipedia Results

Completed

2025 ACS Season 2: Qualifier
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL20 Non-Korean Championship
Championship of Russia 2025
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters

Upcoming

CSL Xiamen Invitational
CSL Xiamen Invitational: ShowMatche
2025 ACS Season 2
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
K-Championship
RSL Revival: Season 2
SEL Season 2 Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
Underdog Cup #2
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.