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Man vs Bot

Forum Index > BW General
Post a Reply
1 2 Next All
djsherman
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States140 Posts
October 30 2010 21:14 GMT
#1
A lot of interesting bots were submitted to the StarCraft AI Competition. However, even the best could not beat a skilled human player.

But what about amateur players? Kotaku claimed that most casual StarCraft players would be unable to defeat the bots. The goal of this thread is to test that claim. To do so, I played against the winner of each of the four tournaments. My crowning achievement in StarCraft is once reaching D+ on ICCup, so my skill is much less than that of DoGo, who previously played against the bots.

Tournament 1: Micromanagement
The first tournament focuses on micromanagement in flat-terrain environments. The winner was FreScBot, which uses a multi-agent, finite-state-machine approach. The results are shown in the video below:



+ Show Spoiler +
Dragoons: 2-1 bot advantage
Mutalisk: 2-0 bot advantage
Zealots: 2-1 bot advantage

Winner: Bot
While I was able to win 2 of the games, the bot's micro was too beastly for my skill.


Tournament 2: Small-Scale Combat
The second tournament builds on the first tournament by adding interesting terrain to the maps. The winner was again FreScBot and my encounter versus the bot is shown below:



+ Show Spoiler +
Match 1 - Dragoons: 1-0 man advantage
Match 2 - Marine/Medic: 1-0 man advantage
Match 3 - Dragoons: 1-0 man advantage

Winner: Man
Adding complex terrain into the mix really offset the skill of the bot. While I was unable to defeat the bot's dragoons micro in the first tournament, I was able to use the topology of the map to my advantage in the second tournament.


Tournament 3: Tech-limited Game
The tech-limited game tournament evaluates bots in a simplified StarCraft environment. The winner was Mimic Bot, which attempts to mirror your build while also stealing your gas and expanding as necessary:







+ Show Spoiler +
2-1 man advantage

Winner: Man
This match was surprisingly difficult. The first game I went goons and was simply out microed by the bot. In the second game, I focused on zealots and used the lack of collecting gas to gain a slight advantage in zealot count. In the third game, I had some fun with the bot, and somehow pulled out a win.

While I was able to win a majority of the matches, the games were very entertaining and I enjoyed the challenge provided by the bot.


Tournament 4: Full Gameplay
The complete StarCraft tournament evaluates bots in the full-blown StarCraft game. The winner was Berkeley's Overmind, a bot too complicated to try to explain:









+ Show Spoiler +
Terran: 1-0 man advantage
Protoss: 1-0 man advantage
Zerg: 1-0 man advantage

Winner: Man
In the first game, I went for a fantasy style build with a vulture drop. I had several issues with my build, such as a failed wall-off, but I was still able to pull out a victory, eventually. Once the mutalisk get out, it is relentless pounding on your base, so it took me awhile to deal with the opponent's expansions. In game two, the bot simply could not handle the zealot timing. Part of the issue is that the bot went for a 12-pool instead of a 9-pool, even though it scouts quite early in the game. And in the final game, the bot could not handle my zergling speed while trying to tech too quickly.


Conclusion:
Despite advances in AI, man still reigns supreme, even at an amateur level. I'm not showing this result as a spoiler, because man's supremacy has already been demonstrated. There are a few interesting takeaways from this experiment:

1. These bots are really fun to play against! Overmind and MimicBot challenged me in ways I never imagined, and it really required adapting my strategy to overcome the opponent.

2. Building a zerg bot is hard! Berkeley was pretty ballsy in deciding to go with Zerg and I commend them for their effort.

I'd like to encourage people to play against the bots, but the setup is a little challenging. All bots are now available on the tournament website.
StarCraft AI Competition Organizer
]343[
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States10328 Posts
October 30 2010 21:26 GMT
#2
ahhh cool stuff! are these the winners of the "final round" of the AI contest?
Writer
seRapH
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States9793 Posts
October 30 2010 21:35 GMT
#3
can't wait to see if really good bots ever emerge, it'd be like playing koreans all the time except i dont have to stay up all night/wake up early :D
boomer hands
SlayerS_BunkiE
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Canada1715 Posts
October 30 2010 21:51 GMT
#4
Downloaded the bots just to try them out...
Could someone help me with how to install/use them?
iloveby.SlayerS_BunkiE[Shield]
djsherman
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States140 Posts
October 30 2010 21:57 GMT
#5
On October 31 2010 06:51 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote:
Could someone help me with how to install/use them?


See the section on running the bots here.

You'll also need to find out which version of BWAPI to use for each Participant.

Unfortunately, it takes two machines to play against a bot. One machine runs the bot, assuming the human player's controls. and the other machine for the human to play. More details at BWAPI.
StarCraft AI Competition Organizer
seRapH
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States9793 Posts
October 30 2010 22:01 GMT
#6
On October 31 2010 06:57 djsherman wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 31 2010 06:51 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote:
Could someone help me with how to install/use them?


See the section on running the bots here.

You'll also need to find out which version of BWAPI to use for each Participant.

Unfortunately, it takes two machines to play against a bot. One machine runs the bot, assuming the human player's controls. and the other machine for the human to play. More details at BWAPI.

have you tried running the bot on a virtual machine while the player uses the real machine?
boomer hands
SlayerS_BunkiE
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Canada1715 Posts
October 30 2010 22:02 GMT
#7
+ Show Spoiler +
On October 31 2010 07:01 seRapH wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 31 2010 06:57 djsherman wrote:
On October 31 2010 06:51 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote:
Could someone help me with how to install/use them?


See the section on running the bots here.

You'll also need to find out which version of BWAPI to use for each Participant.

Unfortunately, it takes two machines to play against a bot. One machine runs the bot, assuming the human player's controls. and the other machine for the human to play. More details at BWAPI.

have you tried running the bot on a virtual machine while the player uses the real machine?

thanks! seems kind of complicated though
iloveby.SlayerS_BunkiE[Shield]
djsherman
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States140 Posts
October 30 2010 22:05 GMT
#8
On October 31 2010 07:01 seRapH wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 31 2010 06:57 djsherman wrote:
On October 31 2010 06:51 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote:
Could someone help me with how to install/use them?


See the section on running the bots here.

You'll also need to find out which version of BWAPI to use for each Participant.

Unfortunately, it takes two machines to play against a bot. One machine runs the bot, assuming the human player's controls. and the other machine for the human to play. More details at BWAPI.

have you tried running the bot on a virtual machine while the player uses the real machine?


Should work! I recommend Virtual box. I've tired bot vs bot on one machine, but not man vs bot:

StarCraft AI Competition Organizer
djsherman
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States140 Posts
October 30 2010 22:09 GMT
#9
On October 31 2010 07:02 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On October 31 2010 07:01 seRapH wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 31 2010 06:57 djsherman wrote:
On October 31 2010 06:51 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote:
Could someone help me with how to install/use them?


See the section on running the bots here.

You'll also need to find out which version of BWAPI to use for each Participant.

Unfortunately, it takes two machines to play against a bot. One machine runs the bot, assuming the human player's controls. and the other machine for the human to play. More details at BWAPI.

have you tried running the bot on a virtual machine while the player uses the real machine?

thanks! seems kind of complicated though


I'm working towards being able to host these on a server so that players don't need to run two machines; they can just connect to a server. Therefore, playing against all these bots would just require adding an additional gateway address.
StarCraft AI Competition Organizer
Xeofreestyler
Profile Blog Joined June 2005
Belgium6774 Posts
October 30 2010 22:37 GMT
#10
Someone should really make an easy way of loading these bots, so that the use of this goes further than just programmers

Will these tourneys be held in the coming years aswell?
Graphics
djsherman
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States140 Posts
October 30 2010 22:45 GMT
#11
On October 31 2010 07:37 Xeofreestyler wrote:
Will these tourneys be held in the coming years aswell?


Yes, AIIDE 2011 will have a competition hosted by the University of Alberta. And we are working towards making these systems more accessible. The goal is to have something similar to computer chess servers, expect for StarCraft, and with matchmaking!
StarCraft AI Competition Organizer
.Aar
Profile Joined September 2010
2177 Posts
October 30 2010 22:47 GMT
#12
Wow, this was really cool to watch.

Some day, many years in the future, when BW dies out (god forbid, but it'll happen) maybe programmers will keep it around by building better bots :D
now run into the setting sun, and suffer, but don't mess up your hair.
Xeofreestyler
Profile Blog Joined June 2005
Belgium6774 Posts
October 30 2010 22:53 GMT
#13
And then you'll have like a perpetual starleague of insanely good bots, battling it out 24/7.
Graphics
MangoTango
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States3670 Posts
October 30 2010 23:10 GMT
#14
I thought your link for man's domination over computer was Jaedong's computer opponent.
"One fish, two fish, red fish, BLUE TANK!" - Artosis
djsherman
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States140 Posts
October 31 2010 00:05 GMT
#15
On October 31 2010 08:10 MangoTango wrote:
I thought your link for man's domination over computer was Jaedong's computer opponent.


People are now saying Jaedong is a robot? I throught Flash was the only machine allowed to participate. But yeah, Jaedong does have crazy foresight and seems to win when he is behind.
StarCraft AI Competition Organizer
seRapH
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States9793 Posts
October 31 2010 00:39 GMT
#16
On October 31 2010 09:05 djsherman wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 31 2010 08:10 MangoTango wrote:
I thought your link for man's domination over computer was Jaedong's computer opponent.


People are now saying Jaedong is a robot? I throught Flash was the only machine allowed to participate. But yeah, Jaedong does have crazy foresight and seems to win when he is behind.

he meant japan's wcg participants
boomer hands
Taekwon
Profile Joined May 2010
United States8155 Posts
October 31 2010 02:14 GMT
#17
Flash is technically a bot. So hire him.
▲ ▲ ▲
Heyoka
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Katowice25012 Posts
October 31 2010 02:44 GMT
#18
This is a really cool write-up and experiment, great work.
@RealHeyoka | ESL / DreamHack StarCraft Lead
IskatuMesk
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Canada969 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-31 02:50:28
October 31 2010 02:46 GMT
#19
You're welcome to try fighting my ZAPOC AI and tell me how it goes for you.

This was not made with BWAPI and is thus ineligable for that contest. As such it does not have any of the advantages the BWAPI AI has. It has other advantages. It was made to destroy other AI's. But I suspect that ZAPOC could confidently defeat most teams of 7 human players under C level so long as they don't worker cheese it or nuke cheese it.

http://www.campaigncreations.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3094&p=38736&hilit=ZAPOC#p38736

Enjoy. You don't need two machines to run this.

I did a small video documentary on some of our AI's, which would be considered fairly phased out by BWAPI of similar calibur. But AFAIK no one has attempted to make a serious cheating BWAPI AI along the lines of what we made, though. A BWAPI AI with micro capacity fused with ZAPOC's as-is functionality would certainly be an unkillable AI.

http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=135868
]343[
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States10328 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-31 03:13:10
October 31 2010 03:06 GMT
#20
On October 31 2010 11:46 IskatuMesk wrote:
You're welcome to try fighting my ZAPOC AI and tell me how it goes for you.

This was not made with BWAPI and is thus ineligable for that contest. As such it does not have any of the advantages the BWAPI AI has. It has other advantages. It was made to destroy other AI's. But I suspect that ZAPOC could confidently defeat most teams of 7 human players under C level so long as they don't worker cheese it or nuke cheese it.

http://www.campaigncreations.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3094&p=38736&hilit=ZAPOC#p38736

Enjoy. You don't need two machines to run this.

I did a small video documentary on some of our AI's, which would be considered fairly phased out by BWAPI of similar calibur. But AFAIK no one has attempted to make a serious cheating BWAPI AI along the lines of what we made, though. A BWAPI AI with micro capacity fused with ZAPOC's as-is functionality would certainly be an unkillable AI.

http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=135868


this is also really cool, but does it work in non-money maps? it seems to be made as an "insane-type" AI that receives money every x seconds...
Writer
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