Serious Balance Changes Suggestions Topic - Page 9

On July 08 2004 15:49 HestkE wrote:
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On July 08 2004 00:28 tfeign wrote:
Saying that protoss players do not need storm to beat zerg is complete ignorance. WTF does sair + reavers strat has anything to do with it? So what?

There's a lot of different strategies, but the problem is that some strategies are inferior to others, like dark archons / queens.

Buffing them to make them a viable strategy nothing out of reach.

And why the hell would muta rush be ineffective when maelstrom costs less? It'll be as effective, if not less effective, than 2 high templars with storm, which costs roughly the same. Even an archon which doesn't need any research costs will be as effective.

And what are you talking about that zerg cant go hydra when maelstrom costs as much as storm? That's like saying a zerg can't go 3 hatch hydra by risk of losing every single micro battle to high templar storms.

Seriously, how long have you played Starcraft RuGbUg?

mineral costs (as of 1.11b)

15: scarab

25: scourge, ghost, interceptor, observer

50: zergling, drone, defiler, lurker, guardian, spore colony, sunken colony,
extractor, marine, scv, firebat, medic, comsat station, control tower,
covert ops, physics lab, machine shop, probe, high templar, observatory,

75: hydralisk, evolution chamber, creep colony, vulture, missile turret

100: infested terran, overlord, mutalisk, queen, hydralisk den, defiler mound,
greater spire, goliath, science vessel, dropship, supply depot, refinery,
science facility, armory, bunker, nuclear silo, arbiter, zealot, pylon,
assimilator, shield battery, level 1 attacks, metabolic boost,
level 1 infantry upgrades, level 1 vehicle upgrades, level 1 ship
weapons, ion thrusters, ocular implants, charon booster,
level 1 armor (protoss), level 1 ground/air weapons (protoss),
apial sensors, carrier capacity, argus jewel, burrowing, spawn broodling,
plague, ensnare, stim packs, spider mines, yamato gun,
personnel cloaking, restoration, optical flare, feedback, maelstrom

125: engineering bay, dark templar, dragoon

150: devourer, lair, nydus, queen's nest, ultralisk cavern, siege tank,
wraith, barracks, academy, starport, corsair, gateway, photon cannon,
citadel of adun, templar archives, forge, stargate, robotics support bay,
level 1 carapaces, level 2 attacks, antennae, pneumatized carapace,
muscular augments, grooved spines, gamete meiosis, metasynaptic node,
chitinous plating, level 1 ship plating, level 2 ship weapons,
u-238 shells, titan reactor, moebius reactor, colossus reactor,
caduceus reactor, level 1 plating (protoss),
level 2 ground weapons (protoss), singularity charge, leg enhancements,
sensor array, gravitic boosters, khaydarin amulet, khaydarin core,
argus talisman, siege mode, cloaking field, hallucination, recall,
stasis field

175: level 2 flyer attack, level 2 infantry upgrades,
level 2 vehicle upgrades, level 2 plating (protoss),

200: ultralisk, hive, spire, spawning pool, factory, shuttle, reaver,
robotics facility, cybernetics core, arbiter tribunal, level 3 attacks
ventral sacs, adrenal glands, anabolic synthesis, level 3 ship weapons,
apollo reactor, level 3 ground weapons (protoss), level 1 plasma shields,
scarab damage, reaver capacity, gravitic drive, gravitic thrusters,
lurker aspect, lockdown, emp shockwave, irradiate, psionic storm,
disruption web, mind control

225: level 2 carapaces, level 2 ship plating, level 2 plating (protoss)

250: valkyrie, level 3 flyer attack, level 3 infantry upgrades,
level 3 vehicle upgrades, level 3 plating (protoss)

275: scout

300: hatchery, fleet beacon, level 3 carapaces, level 3 ship plating,
level 3 plating (protoss), level 2 plasma shields

350: carrier

400: battlecruiser, command center, nexus, level 3 plasma shields

On July 08 2004 16:19 WtF.Dondy wrote:
frozenarbiter, city uses the queens only to show off, he took more than half of the map before getting them, i'd not call that effective ;P

by the way, please gimme just one link :I

On July 08 2004 16:27 RuGbUg wrote:
they are proof of non-storm strategies. and no, you don't need reavers or storm late game if you have enough units in a good mix.


Well no shit, sherlock. How come my mass firebat/medic rush vs toss doesn't work as good as metal? it shouldn't be inferior! let's buff up firebats!

Jesus christ, do you not understand that a muta can easily run away from an archon, or dodge a storm. How the fuck are you going to dodge a maelstrom? here's a build order for you, if you think maelstrom is fucking shitty: Go 10 gate tech, then get core, citadel, temp archives. get your 2nd gate during the citadel. research leg upgrade, and get 2 temps right out of the 2 gates as the archives finishes. after that, get 2 dts and research maelstrom (it's only 100/100, much cheaper than storm). once you have 1 archon, 1 da, and 4-6~ zealots, move out. use this time to expo with cannon. there is NOTHING at this time that zerg can use to beat your army.

Yes, it will beat 3 hatch hydra, and it will beat ANY muta build. If you've played against any half-assed quality zerg, you'll understand how much hydra micro will rape your so-called storm. there is nothing a zerg can do once you've maelstromed 5 hydras and run in with speed zeals. early game, da is still VERY good.

i'm not saying its invincible, but you obviously don't play enough/have enough imagination to realize build orders.

On July 08 2004 15:52 PissPoorMicro wrote:

Changing a unit like the Dark Archon won't do a thing, 9/10 times a friggin HT will handle more jobs more effectively than a DA will/can. Why use Maelstrom vs. muta/hydras/lings/lurkers when a storm just absolutely sodomizes them more than just stunning them for a few moments? I'll give you Maelstrom is more effective when a mass amount of ultras are coming straight at you, or feedback is a nice vs. casters like queens. Overall though an HT is just better, and unless you're willing to give new abilities to a DA it's going to stay that way.

Hallucination is fine, if it was with Terrans or Zerg sure, give it a cost reduction. But why in the hell would you reduce it when it produces two units of the race with the overall toughest units? As if microing against a mass of zealots wasn't fun enough, let's give them tons of extra damage taking copies for us to play with YAY.

As for nukes being used effectively, why in the world would ANYONE risk going to the highest tech level for terrans for a one shot deal? Can they work well, sure, but the fact is making them is just one big damn risk...no matter how you "fix" it. Nukes aren't meant to be used "mainstream" they are for surprises. It's like walking to your door and the mail man handing you a package bomb. If you know it's coming you don't answer the door sheesh.

Tanks are fine, unsieged they have concussion type damage don't they? Doesn't that reduce vs. nearly every armor type save shields? And if you were talking about sieged tanks, why are you running guys into them and not dropping on top of them in the first place?

Your Carrier change is also pointless, sure the change for interceptors is a promotion for people to make valkyries more, but come on who's going to risk that firing problem when a group of goliaths and/or wraiths properly micro'd does the job BETTER and lets you attack ground units?

I think Queens have been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt not to suck, any change to their mana regen or snare costs is just asking for trouble.

On July 08 2004 17:56 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Btw care to guess why the DA costs more and is less versatile? That's right, it's a specialist unit meant for support.