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Kingdom talks about Bisu's Slump - Page 7

Forum Index > BW General
Post a Reply
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dangots0ul
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States919 Posts
March 30 2010 08:36 GMT
#121
is this a.... CONTRIBUTION?!?!?!
i type teamliquid into the url subconsciously... all...the...time...
skronch
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States2717 Posts
March 30 2010 16:55 GMT
#122
wow....kingdom has absolutely no reservations about completely ripping into bisu. it's funny to hear all these comments after bisu has been heralded for so long for being a revolutionist and creative in his build orders
Disregard
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
China10252 Posts
March 30 2010 17:02 GMT
#123
LOL, on man.. I wouldnt expect them to be that honest and say go.go's TvP is shit.
"If I had to take a drug in order to be free, I'm screwed. Freedom exists in the mind, otherwise it doesn't exist."
years
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Costa Rica216 Posts
March 30 2010 17:13 GMT
#124
Why would they hide bisu's vacation from the press? Its not like it was announced mid-season, did SKT even have a chance to qualify for the playoffs when this was announced?
"Member of Hyuk Hyuk Hyuk Cafe! He's the next Jaedong, baby!" Through high and low, bisu boy, through high and low.
aznanimedude
Profile Joined April 2009
United States199 Posts
March 30 2010 17:27 GMT
#125
On March 29 2010 20:28 oo_xerox wrote:
Isnt flash style also very predictable?


yeah
play him and lose
easy to predict :O
HOI POLLOI
koreasilver
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
9109 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-30 18:58:38
March 30 2010 17:54 GMT
#126
On March 30 2010 06:02 madcow305 wrote:
I'm at a loss here:

The commentators are saying Bisu is losing because he's playing it safe, while his newer, younger opponents are going for all-ins and succeed.

How do you defend yourself from all-in cheese? By playing safe, right? Scouting thoroughly, making the proper amount of defense, and not cutting corners.

So now, playing safe against all-in is BAD? What are you supposed to do to counter cheese then?

By all conventional SC:BW theory, Bisu has the perfect idea: he's better than his opponents in raw skill and mechanics. The only way he'll lose is to some cheese that he isn't ready for. So, he plays super-safe, defends against the cheese, then moves to late game where his superior skill takes over.

BUT, according to everyone in this thread and the commentators, aiming for a long-term macro game doesn't favor the player with better skill now?

Playing safe as in extremely standard, and super standard builds are safe because they do not completely commit to anything. If you play like this every game then your opponents can exploit you with crafted all-in builds that are tempered to specifically work against what you do, or they can exploit you by playing greedier because they know you won't be able to do anything about it. In example, if a T goes 1rax fe every single TvZ, a Zerg can exploit it by going 3hatch before pool. If a Terran goes siege expand every single TvP, then a Protoss can go 12nexus. If a Zerg goes 12hatch 11pool every ZvT, then a Terran can go 14cc, etc.

go.go took this to the extremes with his recent games against Bisu. Even though go.go's TvP is balls compared to Bisu's PvT skills, by the way go.go abused Bisu with his opening builds was gross.
madcow305
Profile Joined January 2010
United States152 Posts
March 31 2010 01:02 GMT
#127
On March 31 2010 02:54 koreasilver wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 30 2010 06:02 madcow305 wrote:
I'm at a loss here:

The commentators are saying Bisu is losing because he's playing it safe, while his newer, younger opponents are going for all-ins and succeed.

How do you defend yourself from all-in cheese? By playing safe, right? Scouting thoroughly, making the proper amount of defense, and not cutting corners.

So now, playing safe against all-in is BAD? What are you supposed to do to counter cheese then?

By all conventional SC:BW theory, Bisu has the perfect idea: he's better than his opponents in raw skill and mechanics. The only way he'll lose is to some cheese that he isn't ready for. So, he plays super-safe, defends against the cheese, then moves to late game where his superior skill takes over.

BUT, according to everyone in this thread and the commentators, aiming for a long-term macro game doesn't favor the player with better skill now?

Playing safe as in extremely standard, and super standard builds are safe because they do not completely commit to anything. If you play like this every game then your opponents can exploit you with crafted all-in builds that are tempered to specifically work against what you do, or they can exploit you by playing greedier because they know you won't be able to do anything about it. In example, if a T goes 1rax fe every single TvZ, a Zerg can exploit it by going 3hatch before pool. If a Terran goes siege expand every single TvP, then a Protoss can go 12nexus. If a Zerg goes 12hatch 11pool every ZvT, then a Terran can go 14cc, etc.

go.go took this to the extremes with his recent games against Bisu. Even though go.go's TvP is balls compared to Bisu's PvT skills, by the way go.go abused Bisu with his opening builds was gross.


So, if I'm understanding this correctly, here's what you guys are saying:

Even if you know you're more skilled and a better player than your opponent, you can't always hope to play safe and take it to the late game where your superior macro wins the game.

Sometimes, even against opponents you know you're better than, you still have to go for cheesey, all-in builds, simply to keep your opponents honest.

So, the answer to success is that sometimes Flash must play like Flash, and every once in a while he must play like Kwanro?

Then, the answer to Bisu's slump is to just have him cheese more, in a random and unpredictable fashion, so people can't get a read on his build orders and design sniping BOs when him?

Somehow, I doubt it's as simple as this. If it were, I'm sure someone on the SKT1 team would have figured it out by now. His coach could just order him to mix in proxy double gate in a game or two of proleague or the MSL/OSL.

There must be some fundamental aspect to Bisu's play that is slipping, besides simply not using all-in build orders.
darnoconrad
Profile Joined September 2008
Canada110 Posts
March 31 2010 01:43 GMT
#128
I agreed with the analysis. Bisu does need to get more creative.
Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be convinced by it. Do not count on them. Leave them alone. - Ayn Rand
Manifesto7
Profile Blog Joined November 2002
Osaka27166 Posts
March 31 2010 01:52 GMT
#129
On March 31 2010 10:02 madcow305 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 31 2010 02:54 koreasilver wrote:
On March 30 2010 06:02 madcow305 wrote:
I'm at a loss here:

The commentators are saying Bisu is losing because he's playing it safe, while his newer, younger opponents are going for all-ins and succeed.

How do you defend yourself from all-in cheese? By playing safe, right? Scouting thoroughly, making the proper amount of defense, and not cutting corners.

So now, playing safe against all-in is BAD? What are you supposed to do to counter cheese then?

By all conventional SC:BW theory, Bisu has the perfect idea: he's better than his opponents in raw skill and mechanics. The only way he'll lose is to some cheese that he isn't ready for. So, he plays super-safe, defends against the cheese, then moves to late game where his superior skill takes over.

BUT, according to everyone in this thread and the commentators, aiming for a long-term macro game doesn't favor the player with better skill now?

Playing safe as in extremely standard, and super standard builds are safe because they do not completely commit to anything. If you play like this every game then your opponents can exploit you with crafted all-in builds that are tempered to specifically work against what you do, or they can exploit you by playing greedier because they know you won't be able to do anything about it. In example, if a T goes 1rax fe every single TvZ, a Zerg can exploit it by going 3hatch before pool. If a Terran goes siege expand every single TvP, then a Protoss can go 12nexus. If a Zerg goes 12hatch 11pool every ZvT, then a Terran can go 14cc, etc.

go.go took this to the extremes with his recent games against Bisu. Even though go.go's TvP is balls compared to Bisu's PvT skills, by the way go.go abused Bisu with his opening builds was gross.


So, if I'm understanding this correctly, here's what you guys are saying:

Even if you know you're more skilled and a better player than your opponent, you can't always hope to play safe and take it to the late game where your superior macro wins the game.

Sometimes, even against opponents you know you're better than, you still have to go for cheesey, all-in builds, simply to keep your opponents honest.

So, the answer to success is that sometimes Flash must play like Flash, and every once in a while he must play like Kwanro?

Then, the answer to Bisu's slump is to just have him cheese more, in a random and unpredictable fashion, so people can't get a read on his build orders and design sniping BOs when him?

Somehow, I doubt it's as simple as this. If it were, I'm sure someone on the SKT1 team would have figured it out by now. His coach could just order him to mix in proxy double gate in a game or two of proleague or the MSL/OSL.

There must be some fundamental aspect to Bisu's play that is slipping, besides simply not using all-in build orders.


You are seem to think that there are only safe builds and all-in or cheese builds, when there are actually many levels between the two. Bisu plays too safe, but that does not mean he isn't proxy gating. It just means that he will not cut probes for a timing attack, or skip a production cycle to get a fast third nexus. There are a lot of ways to play less safe without being all-in.
ModeratorGodfather
baubo
Profile Joined September 2008
China3370 Posts
March 31 2010 08:44 GMT
#130
You know what's weird about all this talk of Bisu playing safe? It's that his most troublesome matchup is PvT. And guess who has the safest, most technical style of PvT in the world? Stork, who also happens to be the best at it.

I think the problem with Bisu playing safe is simply that he lacks the management to pull it off. He lacks Stork and Flash's impeccable late game decision-making and map awareness. So in that sense he stops playing to his strengths at times when he's playing safe. I would even say this about Jaedong, who I feel is at his best when he's on the offensive. Gotta use that APM advantage to your benefit.
Meh
Kage
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
India788 Posts
April 01 2010 04:06 GMT
#131
Excellent MrHoon! Thanks for the translation, your work is much appreciated.

Bisu start going risky!
x11tman
Profile Joined February 2009
Finland50 Posts
April 01 2010 23:43 GMT
#132
I always thought of Bisu (and Jaedong) as a person who mostly tends to copy good builds and plays from others and focus on executing them extremely well. Stork always looked like the more creative player (and especially his PvT understanding has always looked better).

I love Bisu's playstyle though, it's exciting IMO. He's my favorite player for that reason and for his successful career. Even when he plays a predictable build, he or his opponent makes it exciting for me. I hope he starts owning again, it's his turn now that Flash has delivered what had been expected of him for some time.
Tempest[OEC]
Profile Joined February 2010
United States417 Posts
April 01 2010 23:55 GMT
#133
Im really anxious to see his level of play in his MSL group. If he cant perform in his best matchup then Im not sure how well he will do in PvZ or his "achilles heel" PvT. After watching him in Hyungjoons show, you can really tell his personality isnt very outgoing and he takes every loss hard so hopefully we can see him dominate again or at least be a contender.
Ryuu314
Profile Joined October 2009
United States12679 Posts
April 07 2010 06:54 GMT
#134
On March 31 2010 01:55 skronch wrote:
wow....kingdom has absolutely no reservations about completely ripping into bisu. it's funny to hear all these comments after bisu has been heralded for so long for being a revolutionist and creative in his build orders

he was only revolutionist and creative for one set. that set against savior oh so long ago. but now, he's been rather...bland.

Sabu113
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States11075 Posts
April 07 2010 07:44 GMT
#135
God enjoyed this thread so much as a stork fan.

The ending was just lol. Thanks for the translation! ^_^
Biomine is a drunken chick who is on industrial strength amphetamines and would just grab your dick and jerk it as hard and violently as she could while screaming 'OMG FUCK ME', because she saw it in a Sasha Grey video ...-Wombat_Ni
buickskylark
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Canada664 Posts
April 07 2010 09:48 GMT
#136
with the level of bisu's multitasking, i think playing safe takes some of the advantages away. basically, playing safe gives less skilled players more an advantage over their level of play while the same safe play takes some of the advantage from players like bisu, with the result of equalizing the skills of two players who are on the opposite side of the spectrum.

it's not that bisu is losing because he plays safe, he could just as well lose if he were to take risks.
Chen
Profile Joined June 2009
United States6344 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-08 12:40:33
April 08 2010 12:32 GMT
#137
+ Show Spoiler +
It's over. Bisu's entering savior mode ;__;
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66358 Posts
April 08 2010 12:33 GMT
#138
nice bump lol

might wanna spoiler your post Chen
POGGERS
Katsuge
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Singapore7730 Posts
April 08 2010 12:35 GMT
#139
Bisu b-team inc
김태연 | 정은지 | 아이유 |  한효주 | 이민정 <3 -|||- 소녀시대 에이핑크 사랑해!
lone_hydra
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Canada1460 Posts
April 08 2010 13:19 GMT
#140
On April 08 2010 21:35 Katsuge wrote:
Bisu b-team inc


No! No! Noooooooo! Take your blaesphmy elsewhere demon!

TT_TT Damn it Bisu, why you gotta do this?
Fav Gamers: 2)Stork 5)Bisu
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