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On March 29 2010 10:21 MeProU_Kor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2010 03:48 jodogohoo wrote:
Isn't Idra also like this? Almost 99% of Idra's games are safe, rax cc builds. i think kingdom wanted to say that bisu is passive and makes one cannon more then necessary, getting that bunch units unnecessary before taking the expo etc, because he thinks he will roll his opponent anyway easy in a pure macrogame. unfortunately he puts his self behind in the earlygame that way =( so not safe like the idra way to get into macro mode (with beeing open to get cheesed BUT) with an early economical advantage. bisu is more like the opposite, going into macro mode with a disadvantage and knowing that.
well, bisu does happen to be one of the players that gets cheesed the most, lol
he got 4/5 pooled like what, 7 times? and flash knocked him out of 2007 osl with double cheese
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It's the same thing as the Savior "slump:" Bisu hasn't gotten any worse, the competition has just been steadily improving. Then comes the subsequent psychological missteps that fool one into thinking that he could be "worse." Kim and Kingdom can see this as well (how insane multitasking is now just "standard").
Bisu getting knocked out of the OSL is not new, and I say he's still a force in proleague; it's the REST of SKT that's making this whole thing worse, the team being quite inept without Bisu and only adding pressure.
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On March 29 2010 15:46 MountainDewJunkie wrote:
It's the same thing as the Savior "slump:" Bisu hasn't gotten any worse, the competition has just been steadily improving. Then comes the subsequent psychological missteps that fool one into thinking that he could be "worse." Kim and Kingdom can see this as well (how insane multitasking is now just "standard").
Bisu getting knocked out of the OSL is not new, and I say he's still a force in proleague; it's the REST of SKT that's making this whole thing worse, the team being quite inept without Bisu and only adding pressure.
You are wrong in that Bisu is not getting worse. It's not his mechanics that is taking the biggest hit, his mechanics are still simply fantastic and so is his macro. It's just his decision making and micro have been really horrible lately.
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RA comments at the end war really "rotfl"...to get the point you should read also the subbed ra interview about his coming back XD
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lol that's fucked up about go.go.
He's not that BAD.
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On March 29 2010 16:28 samachking wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2010 15:46 MountainDewJunkie wrote:
It's the same thing as the Savior "slump:" Bisu hasn't gotten any worse, the competition has just been steadily improving. Then comes the subsequent psychological missteps that fool one into thinking that he could be "worse." Kim and Kingdom can see this as well (how insane multitasking is now just "standard").
Bisu getting knocked out of the OSL is not new, and I say he's still a force in proleague; it's the REST of SKT that's making this whole thing worse, the team being quite inept without Bisu and only adding pressure. You are wrong in that Bisu is not getting worse. It's not his mechanics that is taking the biggest hit, his mechanics are still simply fantastic and so is his macro. It's just his decision making and micro have been really horrible lately.
No one said he is. But the thing is, Bisu never "reinvented" himself.
Stork was slumping hard, complained about zerg imba, then what did he do? He started working out(always good in terms of energy), came out with a ton of new strategies for PvZ, realized that zerg players have improved, raised his APM, and now he's arguably the best PvZ player in the game.
Flash for a long time was an S-class player who just seem to always come up short. And what does he do? He tried early game aggressions reminiscent of his early career. And likely with the help of ForGG, started using an assortment of 2-base timing pushes which were simply insane to counter given his decision-making. Now Flash is more or less invincible.
The point is you can't play a certain way forever. Because people will eventually catch up. And Bisu needs to figure that out and reinvent himself again. Add nuances to his game that will keep his opponents guessing.
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Interesting stuff, tx for the translation. 
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Isnt flash style also very predictable?
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This is so true. I've seen many games from Bisu, where he does his corsair/DT, or some other ineffective opening build, get punished by his opponent, plays at disadvantage, then Bisu comes back during mid/late game with superior mechanics.
I am an all time Bisu fan, IMO if Bisu's build can be more effective, he'd be finally win an OSL.
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People who spend their personal time to translate goodies for the rest of us to read make me warm inside. Thanks <3
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On March 29 2010 20:28 oo_xerox wrote:
Isnt flash style also very predictable?
much much less so than Bisu.
Think about his MBC all kill a few days ago for example, in his TvTs he went for super greedy builds, even though hes the most ridiculous TvT monster ever, that's because he doesn't underestimate his opponents and still wants to get every little advantage he can get.
People flame him when he goes 14cc or when he builds the absolute minimum of turrets vs Z but his wanting to get every tiny advantage even against inferior players is what lets him have such a ridiculously high win rate imo.
And just think of the stuff he has been doing lately, in ZvT he came up with the goliath flash build, then he went for his imba 3 hatch denial play, now he likes to do what fantasy/midas did with the bio -> mech transition. In TvP he's developed a new timing push. All these innovations make it really hard for other players and make him much less predictable than Bisu.
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this makes his early exits from starleagues make sense
he does get knocked out often by newer players that play riskier builds to take advantage of his play.
i hope he comes back though, he's an excellent player.
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I'm at a loss here:
The commentators are saying Bisu is losing because he's playing it safe, while his newer, younger opponents are going for all-ins and succeed.
How do you defend yourself from all-in cheese? By playing safe, right? Scouting thoroughly, making the proper amount of defense, and not cutting corners.
So now, playing safe against all-in is BAD? What are you supposed to do to counter cheese then?
By all conventional SC:BW theory, Bisu has the perfect idea: he's better than his opponents in raw skill and mechanics. The only way he'll lose is to some cheese that he isn't ready for. So, he plays super-safe, defends against the cheese, then moves to late game where his superior skill takes over.
BUT, according to everyone in this thread and the commentators, aiming for a long-term macro game doesn't favor the player with better skill now?
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On March 30 2010 06:02 madcow305 wrote:
I'm at a loss here:
The commentators are saying Bisu is losing because he's playing it safe, while his newer, younger opponents are going for all-ins and succeed.
How do you defend yourself from all-in cheese? By playing safe, right? Scouting thoroughly, making the proper amount of defense, and not cutting corners.
So now, playing safe against all-in is BAD? What are you supposed to do to counter cheese then?
By all conventional SC:BW theory, Bisu has the perfect idea: he's better than his opponents in raw skill and mechanics. The only way he'll lose is to some cheese that he isn't ready for. So, he plays super-safe, defends against the cheese, then moves to late game where his superior skill takes over.
BUT, according to everyone in this thread and the commentators, aiming for a long-term macro game doesn't favor the player with better skill now?
You're switching your definition of safe here.
By playing safe, it means to not commit to a certain timing window. That is to say, the player is neither ruining his econ for defense nor doing an early expand for late game advantage. More or less, it's playing standard.
Bisu is not committing to defend against cheese because he's not willing to sack his econ for one time defense (hello shine). Nor is he willing to go for extremely risky build in the opening to gain econ advantage in the mid and late game.
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I do think Bisu's control is slipping. I watched his control vs. Modesty and go.go compared to some of his 2009 games vs. Flash and Jaedong and he was losing units in those games the Bisu we love will never lose. The play just does not seem so fluid and smooth like it did before.
Everyone may have gotten slightly better, but I think Bisu's reason for slumpage is his own play, not an increase in metagame level., especially after comparing games. I blame it on the stress and depression and his fear of cheese.
I do still believe he has it in him to come back better than ever but he needs to overcome a huge mental obstacle which is especially tough for someone of Bisu's personality.
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On March 29 2010 20:28 oo_xerox wrote:
Isnt flash style also very predictable?
Also wanted to add this from the OSL Take Off News article
"
The icing on the cake? Flash loves to cheese. Before he was known for his overall domination, fans called him “that cheap-ass kid.” (There was a popular webcomic that depicted progamers as warriors in physical combat. Flash was portrayed as a fighter who took a baseball bat to the back side of his opponent’s head before the bell rang) He hasn’t put away those bunker rushing skills he honed early in his career. Flash might be the very best in the game at mixing standard and cheesy play at a golden ratio. He cheeses just enough so that his opponents are always nervous about opening with a greedy build against him. And at the same time Flash can always seem to entice someone into cutting corners, upon which they are quickly punished.
"
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Wait in the past couple of month, have we EVER see Bisu going into super late game that passes the 30 mins mark? I haven't. But guys we have to remember the game of Idra vs NonY. Idra clearly have superior mechanics and multitask but NonY still manage to blow him out of the water. Now Bisu might be in the same situation as Idra.
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I'm personally of the opinion that Bisu's play itself has been slipping. Of course everyone else is certainly getting better, but if you look at Bisu's games across later 2009 and early 2010, it's clear that he's not displaying the type of control that he's renown for. I would imagine that even with his safe play, if his mechanics were just up to his normal standards, then he'd be winning much more games than he has recently.
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EPT
