Title: 'Ear map' MBCGame Coach says "I will launch an complaint after discussion"
MBCGame manager Hero Ha Tae Ki states that after discussing with the company he will launch a complaint about 7th game against KT Rolster which is now under controversy as 'ear map'.
MBCGame has been counter all killed while playing against KT in Seoul Woongsan I-Park mall eSport stadium at 16th pm. Because of this MBCGame could not advance to the finals, and must battle with victor of semi-playoff game at playoffs to advance at the final.
'Ear map' controversy started at the last 7th set.
At game played on Match Point Flash (KT. Terran) scouted the Light's proxy Barrracks with the SCV. However, this became a problem because SCV had moved perpendicularly during the course of its scouting due to the audiences' loud cry.
"Light also said that he had heard the audiences' roar. Proxy Barracks could have beaten Flash's tactics," manager Ha Tae Ki stressed, "today's game is not just simple 1 win."
Lee Woon Jae coach beside him also explains, "When I heard about Light hearing (the sounds of audience) I felt 'Whoops'. This build is meant to block opponent's tactics but Flash scouting perpendicularly became a problem."
MBCGame can make a complaint to Korean eSport Federation within 24 hours but the result of the mass does not change. But manager Ha emphasizes, "the result cannot be changed. But it must be revealed if the opponent has heard the sounds of the audience. Also we must recover Light's dignity."
"We can't really measure Decibels, so it is worrisome that similar situation could occur in future games," he adds, "The opponent SCV suddenly moving perpendicularly during the course of its scouting is the source of the problem. We must clearly reveal what was going on."
Manager Ha finally said that "I will launch a complaint after discussing this with the company" and left the stadium with the players.
'귀맵논란' MBC게임 하태기 감독 "상의 후 이의제기 하겠다" 2010-03-16 21:56:45
[마이데일리 = 김용우 기자] "회사와 상의해서 이의제기를 하겠다"
MBC게임 히어로 하태기 감독이 '귀맵논란'이 불거진 KT 롤스터와의 7세트 경기에 대해 회사와 상의해서 이의제기를 하겠다고 밝혔다.
MBC게임은 16일 오후 서울 용산 아이파크몰 e스포츠 상설경기장에서 열린 위너스리그 KT와의 경기서 풀 세트 접전까지 가는 끝에 역전패 당했다. 이로써 MBC게임은 결승 진출이 좌절됐고, 플레이오프에서 준플레이오프 승자와 결승 진출을 놓고 7전 4선승제로 맞대결을 펼치게 됐다.
'귀맵논란'은 마지막 7세트에서 일어났다.
매치포인트 맵에서 벌어진 경기서 이영호(KT·테란)는 이재호의 전진 배럭 전략을 SCV로 정찰했다. 그러나 관중의 함성으로 인해 SCV가 정찰을 가다가 수직으로 틀었다는 것에서 문제가 됐다.
하태기 감독은 "(이)재호도 관중의 함성을 들었다고 한다. 전진배럭으로 상대 전략을 끝낼 수 있었다"며 "이날 경기는 그냥 1승이 아니다"라고 강조했다.
옆에 있던 이운재 코치도 "재호가 들었다는 것을 듣고 '아차' 싶었다. 상대 전략을 막는 빌드인데 (이)영호가 수직으로 꺾은 것이 문제가 됐다"고 설명했다.
MBC게임이 24시간 안에 한국e스포츠연맹에 이의제기를 할 수 있지만 승패는 달라지지 않는다. 그래도 하 감독은 "결과는 뒤집지는 못한다. 그래도 상대가 들었는지 밝혀야 한다. 또한 재호의 명예도 회복해야 한다"고 강조했다.
이어 "데시벨(DB) 측정도 할 수 없고, 다음 경기 때도 이런 상황이 벌어질지 걱정된다"며 "상대 SCV가 가다가 직각으로 꺾어서 정찰을 한 것이 문제다. 어떤 상황인지 확실하게 밝혀야 한다"고 덧붙였다.
하 감독은 마지막으로 "회사와 상의해서 이의제기를 하도록 하겠다"며 선수들과 함께 경기장을 떠났다.
[하태기 감독]
김용우 기자 hiljus@mydaily.co.kr
WTF? Fomos board is in uproar about this. I am not sure if it was only Light who heard the sound of audience or Flash did too, but I'll try to find it out and update quickly. Kind of amusing that all those comments made about audience imba in LR thread could turn out to be true
- 이재호와의 경기에서 상대 전략을 세 번 연속 파악했는데 ▲ 일단 오늘 빌드는 정찰 후 노배럭 더블 커맨드를 준비했다. 2인용 맵에서만 가능한 빌드인데 배럭을 발견하면서 엄청 유리하게 출발했다. 그런데 상대 본진을 가보니 마린 2기만 있고 아무것도 없더라. 그래서 11시를 들러서 6시로 갔더니 팩토리를 운 좋게 발견했다. 이후에 팩토리를 짓던 SCV가 사라져서 찾아보니 스타포트까지 있었다. 원래 1팩 1스타포트인 줄 알았는데 2스타포트더라. 2스타포트인 것은 보지 못해서 몰랐지만 이미 상황이 유리했고, 그 덕분에 잘 막고 경기를 끝낼 수 있었다.
- Against Light you discovered his tactics three consecutive times First for today's build I prepared a no barrack double command after scouting. This is a build only possible in 2 player map but I started really advantageous with finding the (Light's) barrack. So I visited 11'o clock then went to 6'o clock and luckily managed to find the factory. After that the SCV building the factory disappeared so I looked for it, whence upon I discovered the Starport. I thought it was 1 fac 1 port but it turned out to 2 port. I didn't know that but I already was in good position, so was able to block it effectively and finish the game.
I did find it weird how flash missed the rax at first then after the audience started screaming his scv changed directions and moved up and saw the rax. The problem with this is that light should have made a complaint during the game when flash saw the rax. I would have pressed ppp and told the referee that i heard screaming during the moment flash saw the rax. Saying that he heard screaming after the game is over is bad because all it does is cause controversy.
Can you add a spoiler tag for people who haven't watched the game in particular? I haven't watched the game and that just ruined it for me (Though I'll still watch it)
On March 16 2010 23:36 2WeaK wrote: Can you add a spoiler tag for people who haven't watched the game in particular? I haven't watched the game and that just ruined it for me (Though I'll still watch it)
Sorry. I figured out the problem immediately as I posted this- I can't change the title though, can anyone tell me how to contact the mods?
I wont be surprised if Flash heard a little something during that match. Totally not his fault though. Its not like he intentionally did that. Leta's eye-hack though (i dont know if this was proven or not), I have an issue with.
I wonder what flash says on his post-match interview.
There was a huge roar in the audience as Flash's scout went past the proxy rax, and he turned around that same moment. I wouldn't be surprised if Flash heard it. That said, Light also proxied a factory and a starport, and Flash found them too without the audience's help.
"the result cannot be changed. But it must be revealed if the opponent has heard the sounds of the audience. Also we must recover Light's dignity."
Wow he speaks as though he is the ultimate authority to decide wether flash heard the audience or not..... so was flash asked about this or is he left out of the discussion?
There was a huge roar in the audience as Flash's scout went past the proxy rax, and he turned around that same moment. I wouldn't be surprised if Flash heard it. That said, Light also proxied a factory and a starport, and Flash found them too without the audience's help.
On March 16 2010 23:39 Black Gun wrote: well, even if their complaint in itself is valid, its not kt´s fault for the studio having bad sound suppressing...
There was a huge roar in the audience as Flash's scout went past the proxy rax, and he turned around that same moment. I wouldn't be surprised if Flash heard it. That said, Light also proxied a factory and a starport, and Flash found them too without the audience's help.
Flash looked for the factory when he scouted Light's main base and didn't see one there
i wanted to express that even if the kespa board approves this complaint, kt still shouldnt be punished for what the broadcasting channel fucked up by their badly designed studio.
On March 16 2010 23:39 Black Gun wrote: well, even if their complaint in itself is valid, its not kt´s fault for the studio having bad sound suppressing...
There was a huge roar in the audience as Flash's scout went past the proxy rax, and he turned around that same moment. I wouldn't be surprised if Flash heard it. That said, Light also proxied a factory and a starport, and Flash found them too without the audience's help.
Flash looked for the factory when he scouted Light's main base and didn't see one there
i wanted to express that even if the kespa board approves this complaint, kt still shouldnt be punished for what the broadcasting channel fucked up by their badly designed studio.
On March 16 2010 23:39 Black Gun wrote: well, even if their complaint in itself is valid, its not kt´s fault for the studio having bad sound suppressing...
There was a huge roar in the audience as Flash's scout went past the proxy rax, and he turned around that same moment. I wouldn't be surprised if Flash heard it. That said, Light also proxied a factory and a starport, and Flash found them too without the audience's help.
Flash looked for the factory when he scouted Light's main base and didn't see one there
yeah flash scouting the factory was because flash saw no factory at light's main. In the game after he scouted light's empty main you see him scouting his min only first then goes down where light's fact was and since he saw only 1 fact he could have suspected a starport follow up and scouted the next logical area which was 6.
The whole issue was with him missing the rax. Normally flash would usually go back to main after seeing nothing but he goes back up after. Why this is an issue is because if flash missed it and went 14 cc he probably would have been crippled by the proxy rax and the proxy fact, port follow up after would have probably killed him. Its sort of like the issue with the power outage in the msl final. That rax would have done a lot of damage and flash would have been really behind. But finding that rax and light cancelling it against flash's 14 cc meant light had no chance of coming back. Didnt help that flash also saw the proxy fact, port follow up too.
Light is lying or misheard something under the pressure or something. It could be that his booth turned out to be somewhat defective also. This is the part of the translation I just found from Flash's interview.
- 이재호와의 경기에서 상대 전략을 세 번 연속 파악했는데 ▲ 일단 오늘 빌드는 정찰 후 노배럭 더블 커맨드를 준비했다. 2인용 맵에서만 가능한 빌드인데 배럭을 발견하면서 엄청 유리하게 출발했다. 그런데 상대 본진을 가보니 마린 2기만 있고 아무것도 없더라. 그래서 11시를 들러서 6시로 갔더니 팩토리를 운 좋게 발견했다. 이후에 팩토리를 짓던 SCV가 사라져서 찾아보니 스타포트까지 있었다. 원래 1팩 1스타포트인 줄 알았는데 2스타포트더라. 2스타포트인 것은 보지 못해서 몰랐지만 이미 상황이 유리했고, 그 덕분에 잘 막고 경기를 끝낼 수 있었다.
- Against Light you discovered his tactics three consecutive times First for today's build I prepared a no barrack double command after scouting. This is a build only possible in 2 player map but I started really advantageous with finding the (Light's) barrack. So I visited 11'o clock then went to 6'o clock and luckily managed to find the factory. After that the SCV building the factory disappeared so I looked for it, whence upon I discovered the Starport. I thought it was 1 fac 1 port but it turned out to 2 port. I didn't know that but I already was in good position, so was able to block it effectively and finish the game.
Either way Light is not so invisible anymore. sigh.
Excerpt from Flash's interview included in the spoiler.
On March 16 2010 23:39 Black Gun wrote: well, even if their complaint in itself is valid, its not kt´s fault for the studio having bad sound suppressing...
There was a huge roar in the audience as Flash's scout went past the proxy rax, and he turned around that same moment. I wouldn't be surprised if Flash heard it. That said, Light also proxied a factory and a starport, and Flash found them too without the audience's help.
Flash looked for the factory when he scouted Light's main base and didn't see one there
yeah flash scouting the factory was because flash saw no factory at light's main. In the game after he scouted light's empty main you see him scouting his min only first then goes down where light's fact was and since he saw only 1 fact he could have suspected a starport follow up and scouted the next logical area which was 6.
The whole issue was with him missing the rax. Normally flash would usually go back to main after seeing nothing but he goes back up after. Why this is an issue is because if flash missed it and went 14 cc he probably would have been crippled by the proxy rax and the proxy fact, port follow up after would have probably killed him.
its not at all fair to assume that flash wouldntve scouted it anyway, that entire area of the map is buildable and double cc is freeloss vs a rax built anywhere down there, not just the one convenient path. obviously flash was gonna scout all over. maybe he heard the audience and so turned around immediately, but he was gonna see it a few seconds later anyway.
hmm not the first time somethnig like this happenedl ol, iirc was it anytime vs boxer So1 OSL where the crowd screamed and anytime foudn the proxy fact on neo forte? haha dont remember clearly.
and i can't believe this STILL happens...even with the super tight door booths and noise reducin seinheisser headphones ... o_o
That would really suck for Light if this was true, which I'm pretty sure it kinda was. But you can't blame Flash. It's not his fault for hearing it.
On March 17 2010 00:03 alffla wrote: hmm not the first time somethnig like this happenedl ol, iirc was it anytime vs boxer So1 OSL where the crowd screamed and anytime foudn the proxy fact on neo forte? haha dont remember clearly.
and i can't believe this STILL happens...even with the super tight door booths and noise reducin seinheisser headphones ... o_o
Damn, never underestimate the sound power of a room full of fangirls. They could power Korea off that shit.
On March 16 2010 23:39 Black Gun wrote: well, even if their complaint in itself is valid, its not kt´s fault for the studio having bad sound suppressing...
There was a huge roar in the audience as Flash's scout went past the proxy rax, and he turned around that same moment. I wouldn't be surprised if Flash heard it. That said, Light also proxied a factory and a starport, and Flash found them too without the audience's help.
Flash looked for the factory when he scouted Light's main base and didn't see one there
yeah flash scouting the factory was because flash saw no factory at light's main. In the game after he scouted light's empty main you see him scouting his min only first then goes down where light's fact was and since he saw only 1 fact he could have suspected a starport follow up and scouted the next logical area which was 6.
The whole issue was with him missing the rax. Normally flash would usually go back to main after seeing nothing but he goes back up after. Why this is an issue is because if flash missed it and went 14 cc he probably would have been crippled by the proxy rax and the proxy fact, port follow up after would have probably killed him.
its not at all fair to assume that flash wouldntve scouted it anyway, that entire area of the map is buildable and double cc is freeloss vs a rax built anywhere down there, not just the one convenient path. obviously flash was gonna scout all over. maybe he heard the audience and so turned around immediately, but he was gonna see it a few seconds later anyway.
I dont remember how much light's rax was completed when flash saw it i think around half but is there a chance that if flash saw it a few seconds later could the rax have been finished or near finished before flash's scv could kill it? I remember flash didnt even start his rax yet when he saw light's rax.
Thanks for the translation! It's funny that this problem keeps popping up (brings to mind the Boxer hold position lurkers controversy), even after gaming booths are used.
On March 17 2010 00:03 alffla wrote: hmm not the first time somethnig like this happenedl ol, iirc was it anytime vs boxer So1 OSL where the crowd screamed and anytime foudn the proxy fact on neo forte? haha dont remember clearly.
and i can't believe this STILL happens...even with the super tight door booths and noise reducin seinheisser headphones ... o_o
Anytime did not find the hidden factories and got rolled
On March 17 2010 00:13 Wangsta wrote: I highly, highly doubt that flash heard anything, given the headphones + soundproof booths.
Did you not read the OP?
"Light also said that he had heard the audiences' roar. Proxy Barracks could have beaten Flash's tactics," manager Ha Tae Ki stressed, "today's game is not just simple 1 win."
Seriously though it sounds like they are trying to straight up discredit the win. Couldn't say that they just want to investigate the possibility but saying they must REVEAL this undisputed truth and that light really deserved to win.
Wow, thats insane, I always thought the booths were called Sound-Proof Booths? No? I guess its just glass and wood mixed with a little steel. No sound proof at all there. Thats what the ear muffs are for I guess. But what good are those... They should really create new booths, I mean the games are all played in the same places. So its not like it would be troublesome to do this.
I'm not really sure if flash heard things, but isn't it normal to continue scouting an area when there is clearly an unexplored part of that particular area? I hope people get what i mean.
On March 17 2010 00:45 C[SCL] wrote: I'm not really sure if flash heard things, but isn't it normal to continue scouting an area when there is clearly an unexplored part of that particular area? I hope people get what i mean.
Well, if Light heard things, then I'm gonna assume that unless his equipment was faulty that Flash heard the same things as well. And I'm pretty sure that after he plopped down that rax Flash went down to scout 6 oclock or so but missed the proxy. Fanscreams might have tipped him off that he missed something as I recall him going back and checking further.
It's possible, but what can you do in this situation?
On March 17 2010 00:45 C[SCL] wrote: I'm not really sure if flash heard things, but isn't it normal to continue scouting an area when there is clearly an unexplored part of that particular area? I hope people get what i mean.
Well, if Light heard things, then I'm gonna assume that unless his equipment was faulty that Flash heard the same things as well. And I'm pretty sure that after he plopped down that rax Flash went down to scout 6 oclock or so but missed the proxy. Fanscreams might have tipped him off that he missed something as I recall him going back and checking further.
It's possible, but what can you do in this situation?
Nothing I guess. Let's just hope Light's dignity isn't damaged THAT much.lol
On March 17 2010 01:17 Too_MuchZerg wrote: Shame that Flash didn't show true sportsmanship and asked for regame rather than silently accepting that he "cheated".
Whoa man, it's purely speculation as of now. Definitely too early to call Flash out at all. Things like these, how can you prove it happened?
On March 17 2010 01:17 Too_MuchZerg wrote: Shame that Flash didn't show true sportsmanship and asked for regame rather than silently accepting that he "cheated".
Whoa man, it's purely speculation as of now. Definitely too early to call Flash out at all. Things like these, how can you prove it happened?
I had "cheated" not cheated because reason you listed
On March 17 2010 01:17 Too_MuchZerg wrote: Shame that Flash didn't show true sportsmanship and asked for regame rather than silently accepting that he "cheated".
And if someone ask Flash about it he most likely deny it.
Wow i was expecting something much more obvious that this. I doubt flash head anything/needed to hear anything to scout the rax.
He was planing on 14CCing and his SCV was down there specifically looking for proxies. Also i think the loudest scream happened when flashed SCV was actually heading towards the rax
On March 17 2010 01:17 Too_MuchZerg wrote: Shame that Flash didn't show true sportsmanship and asked for regame rather than silently accepting that he "cheated".
Whoa man, it's purely speculation as of now. Definitely too early to call Flash out at all. Things like these, how can you prove it happened?
I had "cheated" not cheated because reason you listed
Maybe that's the reason he didn't ask for a regame, that he didn't cheat..?
On March 17 2010 01:17 Too_MuchZerg wrote: Shame that Flash didn't show true sportsmanship and asked for regame rather than silently accepting that he "cheated".
Whoa man, it's purely speculation as of now. Definitely too early to call Flash out at all. Things like these, how can you prove it happened?
I had "cheated" not cheated because reason you listed
Maybe that's the reason he didn't ask for a regame, that he didn't cheat..?
Well the situation is this
1. Light heard noise from audience 2. Flash didn't hear noise (if someone asks about it he will deny it) 3. One of them is lying
If Flash says that he did hear noise, then why not regame?
On March 17 2010 01:17 Too_MuchZerg wrote: Shame that Flash didn't show true sportsmanship and asked for regame rather than silently accepting that he "cheated".
And if someone ask Flash about it he most likely deny it.
It's really a shame that Light and his coach talked this over after losing and conspired to pretend that Light could hear the audience through his booth. And that therefore Flash heard it too and is a no good cheater.
And if someone asked Light or his manager about it, he would most likely deny it too. That's the really sad part.
On March 17 2010 01:17 Too_MuchZerg wrote: Shame that Flash didn't show true sportsmanship and asked for regame rather than silently accepting that he "cheated".
Whoa man, it's purely speculation as of now. Definitely too early to call Flash out at all. Things like these, how can you prove it happened?
I had "cheated" not cheated because reason you listed
Maybe that's the reason he didn't ask for a regame, that he didn't cheat..?
Well the situation is this
1. Light heard noise from audience 2. Flash didn't hear noise (if someone asks about it he will deny it) 3. One of them is lying
If Flash says that he did hear noise, then why not regame?
Flash's music could have been turned up louder. Or Light's booth door could have been less tightly sealed. Or Light could have barely heard it, and Flash not at all.
Genius. ><
edit: Also read what IdrA said earlier in the thread, it's very important to this discussion.
On March 17 2010 01:17 Too_MuchZerg wrote: Shame that Flash didn't show true sportsmanship and asked for regame rather than silently accepting that he "cheated".
Whoa man, it's purely speculation as of now. Definitely too early to call Flash out at all. Things like these, how can you prove it happened?
I had "cheated" not cheated because reason you listed
Maybe that's the reason he didn't ask for a regame, that he didn't cheat..?
Well the situation is this
1. Light heard noise from audience 2. Flash didn't hear noise (if someone asks about it he will deny it) 3. One of them is lying
If Flash says that he did hear noise, then why not regame?
It's possible Light heard the noise and Flash didn't? Sometimes some booths and headphones are faultier than others. It's possible Flash had his sound on a much louder setting and his headphones were better and his booth barely let any sound in.
Just because Light heard it doesn't necessarily mean Flash must have heard it. It's not like Flash was in Light's booth using the same headphones and sound settings.
On March 17 2010 01:17 Too_MuchZerg wrote: Shame that Flash didn't show true sportsmanship and asked for regame rather than silently accepting that he "cheated".
Whoa man, it's purely speculation as of now. Definitely too early to call Flash out at all. Things like these, how can you prove it happened?
I had "cheated" not cheated because reason you listed
Maybe that's the reason he didn't ask for a regame, that he didn't cheat..?
Well the situation is this
1. Light heard noise from audience 2. Flash didn't hear noise (if someone asks about it he will deny it) 3. One of them is lying
If Flash says that he did hear noise, then why not regame?
Flash WON the game and there is nothing that points to any kind of cheating. Why would there be a regame. Light hearing anything is not the issue here, and flash hearing the audience is just a theory the mbc coaches ripped out of their asses. If they feel the booths aren't sound proof enough, then it's okay to complain about that though. But as far as I know the booths have been the same for ages, and it seems weird that suddenly when flash scouts correctly, they become a problem.
If flash says he heard the audience and scouted the rax correctly because of that, things would be different, and I'd agree that regame would've been good.
Flash was scouting for proxy rax, he would find that rax with or without audience help.
the question is: why someone doing incredibly great in the Winners League would decide to do an all-in when his opponent is in his 4 consecutive game. he should exploit Flash lack of stamina, but meh
It doesnt even matter much if Flash heard anything (well besides Lights dignity), if Light did. Since yes theres no guarantee he wouldnt have scouted there in any case, whether he heard crowd or not. As the coach says the matches result will not be changed in any case.
Its a serious problem if the players arent properly sound-proofed, obviously.
i don't understand why people are accusing Flash of "cheating" and/or discussing a regame in this thread, it was made clear in the OP that the results are going to stand no matter what (and rightfully so).
we can only hope that Light's dignity isn't too badly wounded!
This is a pretty flawed system that they have. Sure the booths are soundproof but i've heard those fangirls screaming before and there's no way that the players block 100% of the sound out. Sure flash might have found the proxy on his own but this could be, or could lead to a serious problem.
IMO it's a huge deal, i would be really pissed if i were LighT, as long as everything said so far was the truth.
On March 17 2010 02:58 adelarge wrote: I don't get it. I really don't get it. How can you people be so calm about it? It's not about the results. We are talking about Light's dignity here!
it's not about Light's dignity, but the booths not protecting the sound from the audience. they have to fix that asap.
I still can't understand why he would use the wording "dignity". I suppose it is because he could have lost in slightly better way than getting rolled by Flash should he have not chosen to scout it, but this kind of wording makes it sound like Flash deliberately set out to BM Light or something o.o
More than anything, I just wish there were way to detect the noise level in the booth. Not saying this is the case for Light, but if anyone feels like calling out against audience noise when his opponent scouts excellently, it will not matter how much secure and sound-proof the booth is going to be. Having some sort of recording/vibration detection device would so help in getting occasional e-drama like this solved.
Look, people equate the screaming to Flash's scv movement. yes, people would scream louder as the SCV got closer right?
Is the movement of the SCV dependent on the volume of the audience? or Is the volume of the audience dependent on the movement of the SCV, or both? Regardless, saying flash wouldn't have scouted it, you cannot simply say that. Flash knows that you can build anywhere in that area, he may have just been scouting the area and when Flash went perpendicular the crowd screamed, thus it makes it seem that the crowds screaming caused him to move up.
In addition, those soundproof gear is like what construction workers use, and the booths are very soundproof as well. However, I won't deny that maybe light's booth or headphones will have been faulty. The fact that the complaint was made after Light talked to the coach seems fishy, if Light heard the crowd going nuts, why wouldn't he just request a pause or say something right after? He clearly discussed it with his coach and maybe the coach was just raging
I would also like to add that if it were true that you could hear the crowd through the booth that MBC was using, then that means that throughout the entire match ALL of the MBC players MAY have heard things from the crowds, giving the entire team an unfair advantage.
omg... I had to stop watching before the final game, just watched it now, ROFL at the constant KT FIGHTIING;!!! MBC FIGHTIIING!! KT FIGHTIIING!! haha so good
The reason why he had to make the complaint after the game is that he really couldn't see what happened. Think about it, how would he know the SCV turned around after hearing that? He might have thought they were just screaming because the SCV was going the right way. He didn't have vision of the SCV, but when talking to the coach, the two parts clicked.
honestly that proxy position was carefully selected by Light and his coaches to avoid a normal scout
c'mon how many other proxies have been found by careful scouting? Flash's scv was trying to get to Light's main, he heard a giant roar as he passed a certain area, and he found out via giant roar that there was proxy
Looking at the VOD now, Flash just seems to be moving the SCV in a large arc so that he sweeps the entire bottom area and spots the rax on the way out. There's definitely no indication that he's suddenly changing direction due to the screams.
On March 17 2010 05:16 okum wrote: Looking at the VOD now, Flash just seems to be moving the SCV in a large arc so that he sweeps the entire bottom area and spots the rax on the way out. There's definitely no indication that he's suddenly changing direction due to the screams.
Indeed.
Pretty silly by MBC to attemp to smear Flash like this. They just come off like bad losers who can't accept that Flash is so outrageously good.
Flash should feel so great about this; ''I'm so awesome they actually think I cheat''. XD
Well... knowing Flash, the scout was probably intentional. He was going a no-rax fe so it'd be in his best interest to sweep the area to make sure there aren't any proxy barracks that'd directly counter his opening.
I think the way he found the starport after spotting the factory also serves as a point indicating his dominating game sense.
I read that in one of the episodes in that HyungJun becomes a Progamer show, HyungJun explains that inside the booth, you can't hear the screams. However, you can DEFINITELY feel the vibration from the screams when you're inside the booth. It may not be the same as hearing the actual screams but, it's pretty significant.
it's fair enough to be excited about the match, but the endless screaming that goes on by the fans is really bad >.< i hope they realise that they may have influenced the outcome of this and other games with their behaviour
On March 17 2010 00:13 Wangsta wrote: I highly, highly doubt that flash heard anything, given the headphones + soundproof booths.
Did you not read the OP?
"Light also said that he had heard the audiences' roar. Proxy Barracks could have beaten Flash's tactics," manager Ha Tae Ki stressed, "today's game is not just simple 1 win."
Though I do agree Flash probably heard the audience, your argument proves no point, as Light could very well have lied to try to get a regame or somehow enter semis.
I don't think those screams were particularly loud. If Light did indeed hear those screams, then progamers must hear random screams all the time. Everytime someone holds up a sign saying something funny or cool, or the camera pans to some couple kissing, etc.; they must be able to hear those reactions as well.
On March 17 2010 01:17 Too_MuchZerg wrote: Shame that Flash didn't show true sportsmanship and asked for regame rather than silently accepting that he "cheated".
And if someone ask Flash about it he most likely deny it.
Jumping to conclusions much? Flash had planned 14cc after scout, so he scouted for proxy. its likely that even if he hadnt seen anything there, he would have gone down into the 6 o'clock expo, and then checked behind the min-only above his nat as those are both places of common proxies (and you cant 14CC on that map without being 100% sure your opponent isn't proxying).
Whether Light heard anything or not doesn't really matter, Flash was checking everywhere.
If Flash heard something, it's not cheating. But if he did hear something and chose to completely ignore it and point to his game sense, I am tremendously disappointed in him.
On March 17 2010 04:58 DreaM)XeRO wrote: honestly that proxy position was carefully selected by Light and his coaches to avoid a normal scout
c'mon how many other proxies have been found by careful scouting? Flash's scv was trying to get to Light's main, he heard a giant roar as he passed a certain area, and he found out via giant roar that there was proxy
A) a lot of proxies are found by scouting (if they weren't, 100% of games would be proxies). B) Flash wasn't heading to Light's main (not yet anyway), he was going 14CC on a 2 player map. You can't do that unless if you're absolutely sure there isn't a proxy, so he would have checked that area, inside the 6 o'clock bottom, and behind the min line at his 3rd (as well as on the high ground).
It's pretty suspect that those booths (and headphones) have been used for so long now, with matches much louder than these (like flash/jd, and ACE fangirls) and no player has yet to complain about those booths and being able to hear it. I say, either way it doesn't matter for this situation, but OGN can insulate those booths further if Coach Ha demands it. Also, like someone else mentioned above, if indeed the right booth wasn't insulated properly, that would mean that all the MBC players were able to hear the crowd vs KT (giving them an advantage), why didn't they say something then?
Edit: and rewatching the match now with the VOD just makes this accusation seem even less credible imo.
Yea like other have said, after watching the game again, nothing Flash did seems out of the ordinary. He looped all the way around the bottom edge of that pocket looking for proxies: he definitely wasn't heading straight to Light's base. He then proceeded to check the top half of the proxy as one might expect, and found the barracks. Seems perfectly normal to me, especially when you are 14cc'ing.
OGN and KeSPA have both the replay and the VOD. If Flash really did change the direction of his SCV it should be painfully obvious in the replay that such an action did occur.
The MBC Coach should have the replay, provided that Light would've saved it afterwards. Why doesn't the coach look at the replay and make a claim based on that? If Flash truly did react to the audience, there should be a VERY STRONG indication of such an action happening in the replay, which analyzes a player's every action.
On March 17 2010 07:48 YoonHo wrote: I read that in one of the episodes in that HyungJun becomes a Progamer show, HyungJun explains that inside the booth, you can't hear the screams. However, you can DEFINITELY feel the vibration from the screams when you're inside the booth. It may not be the same as hearing the actual screams but, it's pretty significant.
So that is what the ruler is use for: to feel the vibration.
Didn't FlaSh do this against Leta as well? Edit- I couldn;t find anything when I searched but wasn't there some controversy when leta *I think* double proxy factories in a 5th set and the crowd when nuts and Flash walked right to it. I think it was FlaSh... damn memory. But anyway, I wouldn't be surprised; if you hear the crowd go nuts what are you gonna do, move in the opposite direction?
Just watch the VOD. It's clear he was arcing around the area in the first place, especially with his 14CC. There was no sudden jerk movement to audience or anything.
On March 17 2010 10:45 n.DieJokes wrote: Didn't FlaSh do this against Leta as well? Edit- I couldn;t find anything when I searched but wasn't there some controversy when leta *I think* double proxy factories in a 5th set and the crowd when nuts and Flash walked right to it. I think it was FlaSh... damn memory. But anyway, I wouldn't be surprised; if you hear the crowd go nuts what are you gonna do, move in the opposite direction?
lol everybody seems to have forgotten or do not read all the posts in this thread apparently. So Ill repeat it one more time:
KTF vs Hite Ace Match: Forgg vs Leta, forgg goes for proxy 2 fac in the center of shades of twilight, vod shows Leta looking at the crowd and immediately scouts the center seeing forgg's facts (I mean who looks at the crowd in the middle of a game).
The difference between the Leta incident and this one is that the KT coaches immediately called Time Out in the middle of the game, while MBC waited for the game to be over to start whining.
also to note: Forgg didnt lose because of leta's eye hack, he just played terribly that game. lol.
On March 17 2010 01:17 Too_MuchZerg wrote: Shame that Flash didn't show true sportsmanship and asked for regame rather than silently accepting that he "cheated".
And if someone ask Flash about it he most likely deny it.
So if flash say Yes, he did it. If he say No, he still did it?
theres a chance he saw a glimpse of it in his minimap, and his apm did not allow him to react fast enough, therefore turning around late(and coincidentally, at the same time as the audience screamed) ---> could be solved easily by wathching rep and unvisioning light, and just look at his minimap/fog of war
If it doesn't show up on flash's minimap on the replay, i will have to say most likely it is the scream of the audience
On March 17 2010 01:17 Too_MuchZerg wrote: Shame that Flash didn't show true sportsmanship and asked for regame rather than silently accepting that he "cheated".
And if someone ask Flash about it he most likely deny it.
This is utterly stupid.
Why don't people understand what IdrA said before? It's exactly what I thought when I saw everyone complaining. That ENTIRE AREA DOWN THERE IS FREAKING BUILDABLE. Do you HONESTLY THINK that Flash would send his scv down there JUST FOR THE PURPOSE of scouting for proxy, and THEN he would then just leave and leave a HUGE area unscouted???? He obviously knew that entire area down there is a great place to put a proxy rax in TvT, he's probably done it a million times in practice.
In summary, he sent his scv down there JUST to scout for proxy. If you're scouting for proxy, you WILL scout the ENTIRE area where the proxy is likely, otherwise that's a shitty dumb way of wasting time if you're just going to scout for a proxy only on 1 TINY PATH through a huge unexplored area.
Regardless of whether Flash did or did not hear the sound, Flash would have scouted anyway. Let's say Flash heard the sound. Is that even his fault to begin with?!? Everyone should be flaming the studio makers, those booths have shitty doors, NOT FLASH.
Gosh I have absolutely no idea why bad players cheese against good ones.
Flash has the best defense of any Terran that I've seen, doesn't matter that you have a proxy rax, he'll just micro his scvs and kill all your marines while building his rax.
If a player is considered uncheesable, then why give him the advantage by doing a cheese build? Light could have played standard and might have won T-T it was TvT after all. And now there's this retarded controversy about Flash hax and proxy scouting. I mean look at his game against Calm, would that not give anyone an inkling over how good Flash's sense is at the moment? He threw down a second bunker BEFORE scanning T-T. Starsense at its max.
Besides, a proxy rax can negate a 14cc's advantage, but I don't see any possibility of killing 14cc outright with just one rax.
Then Light goes and proxies all his other stuff T-T", and going two port instead of playing catch-up. 2 port is all-in in that situation, just one turret at main and one turret at natural counters the build hardcore.
If there's anything to blame for Light losing his dignity, it was the combined fact that he had to cancel his rax and had the knowledge of a 14cc which probably threw him off, knowing that he was at a disadvantage. IMHO he should have pulled scvs off gas (can't remember whether he took it or not) and rushed for his own cc. Cancelled rax should have refunded him a good portion of his minerals, and he wouldn't have been that far behind. It was his decision making that killed him, in the end.
On March 17 2010 11:40 Wings wrote: In summary, he sent his scv down there JUST to scout for proxy. If you're scouting for proxy, you WILL scout the ENTIRE area where the proxy is likely, otherwise that's a shitty dumb way of wasting time if you're just going to scout for a proxy only on 1 TINY PATH through a huge unexplored area.
While I do agree with this and that's probably what Flash did, I think what most people think is that Flash was on his way to the expansion and "went out of his way" to go to the proxy's location, though to me it seemed logical to go there first 'cause there would be overall less travel time to spot for a proxy that way.
That was seriously one epic game ^^ I would like to point out that... only after this game that this issue is brought up. How audible could it have been? sighhhh.... but starcraft wouldn't be the same without this much controversy.
That proxy location is definitely one of the worst spots to place a barracks.
SImply because, it is sooo sooo easy to defend the ramp going into the natural. There is no way rines from one rax can climb that ramp, if defended by SCV's. Flash could have just brought 2 or 3 scv's and defended his 14cc easily against rines.
And if the rines go up the other way to the high ground, flash would have got his bunker up on time.
Either way, that proxy rax could have done NOTHING vs flash's 14cc, and he would have a BO lost anyways.
I don't think anybody can blame flash, he was clearly determined to scout that whole area from the beginning.
And sturmaddict, it doesn't matter if that position is terrible if they bring 3 scvs to block the small ramp. Forcing the 3 scvs off mining is already a win since if barely hurt lights build if at all. Its not like he went rax before supply, he did a normal 9 supply and rax after that. Sure he loses a little mining time, but he instead doesn't lose the mining time of sending a scout, so its pretty even except he loses the mining time a little earlier, but with the potential to kill some of flash's scvs light figured it was worth it.
Except he got found so early that he was forced to cancel the rax vs 14 cc which was probably the worst thing that could happen from his point of view.
I think it is stupid to call 'ear hack' in this situation. First of all Flash did not react to the scream. Otherwise there would be a sudden change of the direction in the movement of scv. 2nd of all, it was clear from the very beginning that Flash was just planning to scout the whole area with his scv. Why the hell would he send his scv there if not to scout the WHOLE area.
I guess Light must feel that he got humiliated in that game... And in the sense he was. I really hope he will regain "his dignity"
Flash said he was planning on going 14cc so he was purposely scouting there. If you watch his game vs Really on matchpoint, you see that he takes the quicker route since he wasn't going cc first that game. It would be nonsensical to purposefully plan a 14cc and not scout thoroughly when he already sent his scv the long way.
to sniff out cheese, you must think like the cheese, you must be the cheese, and embedded deep within flash's starcraft persona is his natural cheese instinct. u can't be surprised if he scouts you out every time cuz he probably did it himself in some practice game
Just watch the match Light vs SkyHigh and you will know why flash should move his scv like that. Light used the same stragy and SkyHigh couldn't see it. .
On March 17 2010 10:57 Hinanawi wrote: Just watch the VOD. It's clear he was arcing around the area in the first place, especially with his 14CC. There was no sudden jerk movement to audience or anything.
Sour grapes over their loss for MBC coach.
Yeah I don't think it's really possible to prove that flash ever sent his scv to the other ramp during his scout. I'm sure he was planning to scout that area if he already scouted the area below, why wouldn't he?
Here's the vod of the scouting in question, 2m 55s
just to add.... while watching live the screams heard were MUCH louder than in the VOD's.... i dunno why this is the case but i can definitely stress the fact taht when i heard the screams i had to immediately lower the volume as it was effin loud.
I think its because of youtube quality or something but i'm VERY positive that it was loud. Not just in this VOD but compare all live games with the youtube uploads.. you can tell a big difference in the audience volume
People aren't talking about the volume, though. It's not how loud it is, it's about when it is and how Flash is acting when it happens. We obviously can't be 100% sure of the mix issues.
so…how many more controversies like this are we going to have before the cheapskates at MBC whoops, OGN decide to fork over for some playing booths that are indisputably soundproof?
On March 17 2010 13:59 JWD wrote: so…how many more controversies like this are we going to have before the cheapskates at MBC decide to fork over for some playing booths that are indisputably soundproof?
personally, i feel that if this was such a significant problem, the coach(es) should have addressed it before it became an issue, not after. how many matches have been played in the booths? i'm sure there's frequently a lot of screaming... if it was heard, it should have been brought up earlier, not now that this supposed "ear hack" has happened.
i know there have been past instances of this happening, but i'm referring to these specific booths and whatever grievances they might have had with them. the fact that this is only brought up after such a significant match just seems questionable, to me.
On March 17 2010 10:45 n.DieJokes wrote: Didn't FlaSh do this against Leta as well? Edit- I couldn;t find anything when I searched but wasn't there some controversy when leta *I think* double proxy factories in a 5th set and the crowd when nuts and Flash walked right to it. I think it was FlaSh... damn memory. But anyway, I wouldn't be surprised; if you hear the crowd go nuts what are you gonna do, move in the opposite direction?
That was Leta who was accused of looking at the crowd vs fOrGG. fOrGG went proxy 2fac which Leta scouted very shortly after and was accused of cheating by KT coaches (though there was not enough evidence and the match resumed). Leta was also suspected in looking at the audience for singals several other times (like against Movie). There was also a seperate incident with Light and Flash on MBC with Flash going 14CC and Light going 2 fac, where Flash saw someone waving their arms, though it was after he already scouted Light (and saw no expo, 2 marines w/ no vults on the ramp). He barely held it off with scv/vult micro.
Also, to my knowledge, there have not been accusations of being able to hear the crowd from these booths, even on much louder sets (ACE,Boxer, jd/flash, etc). And again, assuming the booth was defective somehow, how come the other MBC players didn't report that they were able to hear the crowd that night (even though if true this would have been an unfair advantage for all those sets). As far as I'm concerned, this claim by coach Ha is absurd.
On March 17 2010 13:59 JWD wrote: so…how many more controversies like this are we going to have before the cheapskates at MBC decide to fork over for some playing booths that are indisputably soundproof?
i looked at the vod again and when flash scouts down, the audience starts getting a little louder.. and then flash arcs up and discovers the barrack.
two things; 1. the audience wasn't that loud 2. haven't audience screamed for before when they pan it on certain players? so flash wouldn't have "known" that the audience noise was in direct regards to his scouting.. the camera man could have panned it on another player and the audience could have been going wild over him
I rewatched the video many times and I can say that the first scv that Flash sent out is a scouting for proxy scv rather than going to your opponent's main scv.
Reason behind it is the path that the scv took.
But if Flash is just sending his scv to Light's main...(PS: I can spell PATH)
Therefore, I can conclude that scv is scouting for proxy. And where are the good spots to proxy, I think Flash knows...
Um there was an incident with Flash and someone else, I forgot who. Flash said he saw someone waving at him and he changed directions to scout or something. He freely admitted that he changed his shit after he won. I think this was the same thing, but this time, the stakes are bigger so flash didn't want to admit it. Btw,if flash DID watch the replay of light vs skyhigh, he would be scouting Light's sky-high proxy location first before going to the other location. Instead, flash made a straight run upwards.
On March 17 2010 13:59 JWD wrote: so…how many more controversies like this are we going to have before the cheapskates at MBC decide to fork over for some playing booths that are indisputably soundproof?
OH NOW I KNOW WHY THIS CONTROVERSY HAPPENED
MBC getting karma for screwing over Flash during MSL. ITS FATE.
On March 17 2010 16:42 hacpee wrote: Um there was an incident with Flash and someone else, I forgot who. Flash said he saw someone waving at him and he changed directions to scout or something. He freely admitted that he changed his shit after he won. I think this was the same thing, but this time, the stakes are bigger so flash didn't want to admit it. Btw,if flash DID watch the replay of light vs skyhigh, he would be scouting Light's sky-high proxy location first before going to the other location. Instead, flash made a straight run upwards.
They fixed this problem to a point where the players almost cant see anything bar someone waving their arms like crazy, the booth has alot of light where outside has very little creating almost a one way mirror, also this is about hearing the audience not seeing them 2 things about this situation, rewatching the vod the commentators microphones are louder than the crowd and even if flash heard them its not his fault
On March 17 2010 16:42 hacpee wrote: Btw,if flash DID watch the replay of light vs skyhigh, he would be scouting Light's sky-high proxy location first before going to the other location. Instead, flash made a straight run upwards.
This explanation doesn't make much sense.
Firstly, Flash probably intended to scout that position afterwards. There are basically four places where you can put a proxy rax in that area, and the location Light used against Skyhigh is the most remote and hence least harmful (indeed, Skyhigh even defended it without scouting it). So Flash might have intended to scout that last. This is just speculation, though.
Secondly, assuming that there was a proxy *somewhere* in the area, it's ridiculous to think that the screaming would give Flash such specific intel as to look in that particular position. At the SCV position where Flash supposedly was influenced by the audience, he was about equal distance away from the actual location and the Skyhigh location, so why would the screaming indicate one position and not the other? I guess Flash might possess such delicate crowd-gauging ears (1.5 dBA louder indicates a proxy in the top-right location) but I doubt it.
It is also a psychological issue, and knowing coaches like Ha, this whole controversy is only to keep Light's confidence high. Since Light has grown to impressive hights lately, he will probably be of key importance for MBC if he can keep his form intact. A dramatic loss to Flash in the ace match, however, could potentially drain away his confidence and therefore leave his team without a strong Light, when they need it the most. "Protecting Light's dignity" should be taken seriously, but not literally. Swap "dignity" with "form" and it becomes obvious what coach Ha's intentions are.
You'll see the same thing happening in for example football matches, when coaches go out of their way to criticize referee decisions, only to drive away attention from their teams loss. It is not the most subtle of motivating techniques, but it gets the job done: especially when there are playoffs in the near future.
On the topic of sound-proofing booths. It is near impossible, and I can understand why MBC chose a virtual stage for their finals. (From an acoustic point of view only however.)
Last year I did some research in a sound lab, in a building which had previously been a bank. There was a particular sound-proof chamber, in a former vault, which had a 5 cm thick door (with a small glass window, to allow examiners to see people suffocating or w/e), and I could still hear people screaming inside it. (They were screaming to test sound reduction, experiments were entirely non-harmful :p)
If you take a herd of fangirls screaming towards a large glass/plastic window, GL soundproofing that ^^
On March 17 2010 19:57 nepeta wrote: On the topic of sound-proofing booths. It is near impossible, and I can understand why MBC chose a virtual stage for their finals. (From an acoustic point of view only however.)
Last year I did some research in a sound lab, in a building which had previously been a bank. There was a particular sound-proof chamber, in a former vault, which had a 5 cm thick door (with a small glass window, to allow examiners to see people suffocating or w/e), and I could still hear people screaming inside it. (They were screaming to test sound reduction, experiments were entirely non-harmful :p)
If you take a herd of fangirls screaming towards a large glass/plastic window, GL soundproofing that ^^
why cant they use like 20 cm thick walls with those sound recording studio / music practice room sound proofing materail.. like walls with wavy foam shapes haha
also for the issue of "eye hacking" they really just need to use those special glass that you can only see through from one direction and the other side is mirrored -_-
On March 17 2010 19:57 nepeta wrote: On the topic of sound-proofing booths. It is near impossible, and I can understand why MBC chose a virtual stage for their finals. (From an acoustic point of view only however.)
Last year I did some research in a sound lab, in a building which had previously been a bank. There was a particular sound-proof chamber, in a former vault, which had a 5 cm thick door (with a small glass window, to allow examiners to see people suffocating or w/e), and I could still hear people screaming inside it. (They were screaming to test sound reduction, experiments were entirely non-harmful :p)
If you take a herd of fangirls screaming towards a large glass/plastic window, GL soundproofing that ^^
I have a very hard time believing that there is no way the networks could make it ridiculous for any player to claim he heard something outside of the booth (thicker walls, a better seal on the door, the right materials and some noise-canceling headphones?).
Bigger point is: these sorts of complaints keep popping up over and over again in serious games, and I feel they're eating at the legitimacy of the game…but to my knowledge nothing has been done to the booths, to deal with fan noise or players being able to see out of them? That's just dumb.
i didn't finish the whole thread yet, but one thing i had in my mind. did light came with the claim that he heard the cheers after watching a replay? because without a replay (without flash's vision) i think it would be quite far fetched to connect a slight noise with the scouting pattern of your opponent... so he must have come up with this claim after watching the replay or talking to the coach or other players, which makes his statement less credible as he could have influenced by outer factors...
On March 17 2010 19:57 nepeta wrote: On the topic of sound-proofing booths. It is near impossible, and I can understand why MBC chose a virtual stage for their finals. (From an acoustic point of view only however.)
Last year I did some research in a sound lab, in a building which had previously been a bank. There was a particular sound-proof chamber, in a former vault, which had a 5 cm thick door (with a small glass window, to allow examiners to see people suffocating or w/e), and I could still hear people screaming inside it. (They were screaming to test sound reduction, experiments were entirely non-harmful :p)
If you take a herd of fangirls screaming towards a large glass/plastic window, GL soundproofing that ^^
well, when you worked there you probably were standing in a silent area outside the soundproofed room and carefully listening. they have loud music in the booths which overwhelms the crowd cheering and then noise cancelling headphones AND then earphones with the actual game sound... GL hearing through that...
my point is if you would somehow be able to hear the crowd, then the music would be to loud to concentrate on the game and that i think might be a huge issue and would have been dealt with long time ago...
On March 17 2010 19:57 nepeta wrote: On the topic of sound-proofing booths. It is near impossible, and I can understand why MBC chose a virtual stage for their finals. (From an acoustic point of view only however.)
Last year I did some research in a sound lab, in a building which had previously been a bank. There was a particular sound-proof chamber, in a former vault, which had a 5 cm thick door (with a small glass window, to allow examiners to see people suffocating or w/e), and I could still hear people screaming inside it. (They were screaming to test sound reduction, experiments were entirely non-harmful :p)
If you take a herd of fangirls screaming towards a large glass/plastic window, GL soundproofing that ^^
well, when you worked there you probably were standing in a silent area outside the soundproofed room and carefully listening. they have loud music in the booths which overwhelms the crowd cheering and then noise cancelling headphones AND then earphones with the actual game sound... GL hearing through that...
my point is if you would somehow be able to hear the crowd, then the music would be to loud to concentrate on the game and that i think might be a huge issue and would have been dealt with long time ago...
On March 17 2010 19:57 nepeta wrote: On the topic of sound-proofing booths. It is near impossible, and I can understand why MBC chose a virtual stage for their finals. (From an acoustic point of view only however.)
Last year I did some research in a sound lab, in a building which had previously been a bank. There was a particular sound-proof chamber, in a former vault, which had a 5 cm thick door (with a small glass window, to allow examiners to see people suffocating or w/e), and I could still hear people screaming inside it. (They were screaming to test sound reduction, experiments were entirely non-harmful :p)
If you take a herd of fangirls screaming towards a large glass/plastic window, GL soundproofing that ^^
well, when you worked there you probably were standing in a silent area outside the soundproofed room and carefully listening. they have loud music in the booths which overwhelms the crowd cheering and then noise cancelling headphones AND then earphones with the actual game sound... GL hearing through that...
my point is if you would somehow be able to hear the crowd, then the music would be to loud to concentrate on the game and that i think might be a huge issue and would have been dealt with long time ago...
they have music in the booths..?.?
i think so, that's what i read somewhere on how they adjusted it after the boxer infamous hear-hacking incident. i haven't been in those booths myself so...
I'm not a TvX expert on Matchpoint, so I'll take IdrA's word for it because it seems to make sense... if the whole map terrain is buildable and Flash is risking a build that can be easily countered by proxy rax, it makes sense for him to scout all the "popular proxy spots" around the map.
And I also agree with MBC coach's purpose of keeping Light's confidence high, because they'll need Light to perform the way he did in SWL for the rest of the season to have a good chance at winning it all!
Starcraft pro gaming is one of the best and deepest gaming communities in the world. I'm pretty sure that if something were wrong with the booths after all these years, something would have been done already or there would have been at least ONE other complaint about the sound since the booths were installed.
Also consider this: Crowds REACT to what the player does. If Flash's SCV was getting closer or turned, the crowd would go nuts at probably exactly the same time, so it would make it seem like the crowd was guiding Flash.
Notice how the coach brought it up and not light. Secondly, if it were true that you could hear through the MBC booth, then all of the previous MBC wins earlier in the round could be considered possibly illegit. I doubt the MBC team would cheat and I like their players, I'm just saying if you are going to rat Flash out for that, you have to consider the previous cases.
To me it clearly looks like the coach was just angry that his Ace player lost to flash (imo its not disgraceful to lose to flash but the coach thinks that apparently). There are 4 cases (someone mentioned it before)
1. Light heard something and Flash didn't 2. Light didn't hear anything but Flash did 3. Both heard something 4. Neither heard something.
Now think of it this way the coach's opinion is probably always going to be bias and angry toward Flash and ONLY the two players can truly testify.Light said he heard something, Flash didn't seem to say anything. In 2 cases, it actually matters, the other 2, no. We don't really know what happened and only the players can tell us. Who is more trustworthy? Even if lights booth and headphones were faulty, its a wrong assumption to say that Flash's was faulty as well.
In addition, commentators are freaking loud when they say stuff. Has a player or coach ever complained about what a commentator said? (they are actually saying EXACTLY what is going on in the game as well). I mean whenever someone proxies or an arbiter gets close to a base, or a terran is walking and zerg is throwing up sunkens, etc etc etc sometimes the commentators just blow up. They wouldn't make a booth in which you could hear the commentators even when the commentators are screaming
On March 17 2010 22:59 AppleTart wrote: In addition, commentators are freaking loud when they say stuff. Has a player or coach ever complained about what a commentator said? (they are actually saying EXACTLY what is going on in the game as well). I mean whenever someone proxies or an arbiter gets close to a base, or a terran is walking and zerg is throwing up sunkens, etc etc etc sometimes the commentators just blow up. They wouldn't make a booth in which you could hear the commentators even when the commentators are screaming
This. I've been to the OGN studios and the commentators are broadcasted really loud within the studio.
First eye hacking , now ear hacking this is geting ridicilues . Next thing you know there will be nose hacking like when someone cheeses the audience starts opening bags of smelly cheese whos smell is so strong it could get to the players booths . I don't even blame the players even if they watch the audience on purpose unless there is a rule from Kespa about this whats wrong at looking at the audience from time to time . People could be waving hands in the audiance like crazy or just screaming their ass of it's korea of course . How does hearing something or seeing someone waving his hands has anything to do with finding a proxy in the first place . Flash opening with a 14 CC will surely be scouting for this things he isn't dumb and after he scouted Lights main being empty it's only natural to scout the proxy factory and the starport . This are stupid atempts at making excuses for why Light lost .
That Flash was already scouting seems to be consensus everywhere for the moment actually, since there is no evidence from the game that verifies the ear hack claim. I expect this to die down rapidly unless something crazy happens.
On March 17 2010 15:28 LunarDestiny wrote: I rewatched the video many times and I can say that the first scv that Flash sent out is a scouting for proxy scv rather than going to your opponent's main scv.
Reason behind it is the path that the scv took.
But if Flash is just sending his scv to Light's main...(PS: I can spell PATH)
Therefore, I can conclude that scv is scouting for proxy. And where are the good spots to proxy, I think Flash knows...
On March 18 2010 05:58 johnlee wrote: LunarDestiny's argument makes sense.
First picture is the path that the SCV took in the game
If the SCV was just being sent to Light's main, it would have taken the route in picture 2
Flash was scouting around for a proxy before the crowd reacted to him being close to finding it. I think it's silly to think that he wouldn't have found it otherwise, he was clearly scouting that entire area on purpose
On March 17 2010 01:17 Too_MuchZerg wrote: Shame that Flash didn't show true sportsmanship and asked for regame rather than silently accepting that he "cheated".
Whoa man, it's purely speculation as of now. Definitely too early to call Flash out at all. Things like these, how can you prove it happened?
I had "cheated" not cheated because reason you listed
Maybe that's the reason he didn't ask for a regame, that he didn't cheat..?
Well the situation is this
1. Light heard noise from audience 2. Flash didn't hear noise (if someone asks about it he will deny it) 3. One of them is lying
If Flash says that he did hear noise, then why not regame?
Then every game with cheese will be a regame since people always scream when there is cheese.
"Hey look, they are showing BOXER!" SCREAM "Hey look, they are showing BISU!" SCREAM "Hey look, they are showing BOOBS!!!" SCREAM!!!
Another point is Light did not stop the game by "ppp"ing and played it. After he lost, the coach complained. It is definitely not fair to regame at that point.
I'm with Flash in this situation. Proxying is a very common cheese, so firstly, there must have been at least dozens of times where a player did a proxy in that very stadium. There are things that excite the audience much more than proxying. Ear map has very rarely been called out. I fail to see how competitive SC could even exist if every single time someone proxies, the other player can hear the audience. I don't think that Light honestly heard the audience. Secondly is that Light went through with the proxy and only complained when it didn't work. That is a win-win situation for Light and it's a completely unfair tactic. If he truly believes that it is unfair, call a rm on the spot.
why are you guys pushing towards a light vs flash argument? clearly mbc's coach said a re-game is out of question, he just wants this potential problem rectified so it won't happen in the future.
On March 18 2010 22:58 rotinegg wrote: why are you guys pushing towards a light vs flash argument? clearly mbc's coach said a re-game is out of question, he just wants this potential problem rectified so it won't happen in the future.
This.
No one is saying regame or is anyone trying to take away credit from light or flash. Coach Ha merely stated the booths are not completely sound proof and needs to be looked into and rectified if the claim is legitimate.
On March 18 2010 22:58 rotinegg wrote: why are you guys pushing towards a light vs flash argument? clearly mbc's coach said a re-game is out of question, he just wants this potential problem rectified so it won't happen in the future.
Because the coach is a huge troll for bringig this "potential problem" up after that game, suggesting that earmapping was the reason flash won. He should have some manners. Winning the game for KT was huge for flash and it must be awful to afterwards hear some people say it wasn't a real win even though the result won't change.
But I'm over it now, 9 pages was more than enough discussion about this.
On March 18 2010 22:58 rotinegg wrote: why are you guys pushing towards a light vs flash argument? clearly mbc's coach said a re-game is out of question, he just wants this potential problem rectified so it won't happen in the future.
Because hes trying to make it seem that Flash's win was illegit and preserve light's dignity (basically hes trying to make it seem that Flash isn't better than Light)
And also, the soundproofness argument has been refuted so many times in the thread already because of the scout path, the fact that Flash was indeed looking for a proxy, the obvious constant loudness of commentators (which no one has EVER complained about, and trust me, they are freaking LOUD), and the possibility of ALL other previous matches becoming illegit.
This coupled with the fact that Light didn't even complain during match and only after discussing with their coach for half a day did they report it, obviously it hints toward sketchy stuff. Also how can you even put a coach's word over Flash, who was actually IN the booth? At best you put lights word equal to flash's, but people are innocent until proven guilty AND the fact that his coach said light said he heard it, light himself didn't say it to the refs. Also how can you make a deduction about both booths from one person's perspective? Maybe only one booth was faulty. The coach is obviously a troll. Its interesting because the coach is trying to preserve this players Dignity, don't you think theres a chance it could have went down like this?
Light: sigh... I'm sad I lost T_T Coach: That game he had scouted you each time when I was watching, maybe he was cheating Light: How? Coach: the crowd, I know you are no less than Flash, did you hear anything? etc etc
If light had thought he was cheated himself, he would have done something right there and then. Also remember arguments posted before. If people are going to theorycraft against Flash, its a double standard so eat theorycraft back. (Remember the list of arguments previous which are not even theorycraft)
On March 18 2010 22:58 rotinegg wrote: why are you guys pushing towards a light vs flash argument? clearly mbc's coach said a re-game is out of question, he just wants this potential problem rectified so it won't happen in the future.
Because hes trying to make it seem that Flash's win was illegit and preserve light's dignity (basically hes trying to make it seem that Flash isn't better than Light)
And also, the soundproofness argument has been refuted so many times in the thread already because of the scout path, the fact that Flash was indeed looking for a proxy, the obvious constant loudness of commentators (which no one has EVER complained about, and trust me, they are freaking LOUD), and the possibility of ALL other previous matches becoming illegit.
This coupled with the fact that Light didn't even complain during match and only after discussing with their coach for half a day did they report it, obviously it hints toward sketchy stuff. Also how can you even put a coach's word over Flash, who was actually IN the booth? At best you put lights word equal to flash's, but people are innocent until proven guilty AND the fact that his coach said light said he heard it, light himself didn't say it to the refs. Also how can you make a deduction about both booths from one person's perspective? Maybe only one booth was faulty. The coach is obviously a troll. Its interesting because the coach is trying to preserve this players Dignity, don't you think theres a chance it could have went down like this?
Light: sigh... I'm sad I lost T_T Coach: That game he had scouted you each time when I was watching, maybe he was cheating Light: How? Coach: the crowd, I know you are no less than Flash, did you hear anything? etc etc
If light had thought he was cheated himself, he would have done something right there and then. Also remember arguments posted before. If people are going to theorycraft against Flash, its a double standard so eat theorycraft back. (Remember the list of arguments previous which are not even theorycraft)
Flash>>>> Light. is it that hard to accept?
wow you just shat on me with a block of text. I am a flash fan so screw you with your condescending tone of voice, i hate flash fans like you that are like ZOMG FLASH >>> ALL! the fact that im rooting for the same player as you people embarrasses the shit out of me. dont u think the coach and light might have considered the possibility that bringing something like this to light (no pun intended) might generate an outrage from esports fans? I'm sure they aren't retards going "ooh maybe if i insinuate that the booths are faulty people will no longer think flash won legitimately without making us look bad durrrr" there is a chance that it might have gone down exactly the way you described it, but that doesnt mean you should assume that's what happened like all of the flash fanboys in this thread are, that's about as ignorant as MBC fans assuming that flash heard the roar outside but wont admit it. is it so hard for you flash fanboys to understand that 'booth is not soundproof != FLASH IS GOOD'? I personally think flash is tenfolds better than light, but that has nothing to do with the possibility of the booths being not completely soundproof.
On March 18 2010 22:58 rotinegg wrote: why are you guys pushing towards a light vs flash argument? clearly mbc's coach said a re-game is out of question, he just wants this potential problem rectified so it won't happen in the future.
Because hes trying to make it seem that Flash's win was illegit and preserve light's dignity (basically hes trying to make it seem that Flash isn't better than Light)
And also, the soundproofness argument has been refuted so many times in the thread already because of the scout path, the fact that Flash was indeed looking for a proxy, the obvious constant loudness of commentators (which no one has EVER complained about, and trust me, they are freaking LOUD), and the possibility of ALL other previous matches becoming illegit.
This coupled with the fact that Light didn't even complain during match and only after discussing with their coach for half a day did they report it, obviously it hints toward sketchy stuff. Also how can you even put a coach's word over Flash, who was actually IN the booth? At best you put lights word equal to flash's, but people are innocent until proven guilty AND the fact that his coach said light said he heard it, light himself didn't say it to the refs. Also how can you make a deduction about both booths from one person's perspective? Maybe only one booth was faulty. The coach is obviously a troll. Its interesting because the coach is trying to preserve this players Dignity, don't you think theres a chance it could have went down like this?
Light: sigh... I'm sad I lost T_T Coach: That game he had scouted you each time when I was watching, maybe he was cheating Light: How? Coach: the crowd, I know you are no less than Flash, did you hear anything? etc etc
If light had thought he was cheated himself, he would have done something right there and then. Also remember arguments posted before. If people are going to theorycraft against Flash, its a double standard so eat theorycraft back. (Remember the list of arguments previous which are not even theorycraft)
Flash>>>> Light. is it that hard to accept?
wow you just shat on me with a block of text. I am a flash fan so screw you with your condescending tone of voice, i hate flash fans like you that are like ZOMG FLASH >>> ALL! the fact that im rooting for the same player as you people embarrasses the shit out of me. dont u think the coach and light might have considered the possibility that bringing something like this to light (no pun intended) might generate an outrage from esports fans? I'm sure they aren't retards going "ooh maybe if i insinuate that the booths are faulty people will no longer think flash won legitimately without making us look bad durrrr" there is a chance that it might have gone down exactly the way you described it, but that doesnt mean you should assume that's what happened like all of the flash fanboys in this thread are, that's about as ignorant as MBC fans assuming that flash heard the roar outside but wont admit it. is it so hard for you flash fanboys to understand that 'booth is not soundproof != FLASH IS GOOD'? I personally think flash is tenfolds better than light, but that has nothing to do with the possibility of the booths being not completely soundproof.
I don't think there was anything condescending about AppleTart's tone at all... He was just trying to say that it seems ridiculous that Flash scouted the proxy because he heard something from the audience, especially given that Flash was already scouting in a direction for finding proxies. The audience made the scream AFTER Flash started scouting that area of the map, which implies that Flash planned to scout for proxies to begin with.
Hwaseung Oz pays Jaedong very little compared to other S-class progamers. The team knew that it would start drama and lead to a huge fight between Jaedong and his parents and the Oz coaches, yet the drama still happened.
E-Sports is serious business. People want to win, and sponsors want to make as much money as possible while giving as little as possible. It shouldn't come as any surprise that MBC was angry and wanted to win, especially given that THE SEEDING OF THE WINNER'S LEAGUE FINALS was on the line in that match.
The audience was screaming for many matches in the KT vs MBC set. If the sound was an issue, why is it only an issue for the ace match and none of the matches preceding it? And what does that mean about Sea's 3 wins over KT? If Light heard sound during HIS match, doesn't that mean Sea could have heard things too? Should both teams just replay the entire set?
I like Flash but I have nothing against Light. In my humble opinion, Light had a very good idea going into the game to proxy rax. Flash had prepared a 14cc build prior to the match and he knew that he would be extremely vulnerable to proxies. He scouted in a huge sweeping arc, before even going into the middle of the map, knowing that he would be vulnerable to a proxy rush. That's just the most likely scenario and I think people should just accept it.
I mean, most Flash fans have already accepted the power outage issues with the MSL finals and moved on. I don't think Flash anti fans need to drag this situation out and accuse Flash of cheating, when the scouting path BEFORE THE SCREAMING HAPPENED already indicated that Flash was looking for a proxy.
On March 18 2010 22:58 rotinegg wrote: why are you guys pushing towards a light vs flash argument? clearly mbc's coach said a re-game is out of question, he just wants this potential problem rectified so it won't happen in the future.
Because hes trying to make it seem that Flash's win was illegit and preserve light's dignity (basically hes trying to make it seem that Flash isn't better than Light)
And also, the soundproofness argument has been refuted so many times in the thread already because of the scout path, the fact that Flash was indeed looking for a proxy, the obvious constant loudness of commentators (which no one has EVER complained about, and trust me, they are freaking LOUD), and the possibility of ALL other previous matches becoming illegit.
This coupled with the fact that Light didn't even complain during match and only after discussing with their coach for half a day did they report it, obviously it hints toward sketchy stuff. Also how can you even put a coach's word over Flash, who was actually IN the booth? At best you put lights word equal to flash's, but people are innocent until proven guilty AND the fact that his coach said light said he heard it, light himself didn't say it to the refs. Also how can you make a deduction about both booths from one person's perspective? Maybe only one booth was faulty. The coach is obviously a troll. Its interesting because the coach is trying to preserve this players Dignity, don't you think theres a chance it could have went down like this?
Light: sigh... I'm sad I lost T_T Coach: That game he had scouted you each time when I was watching, maybe he was cheating Light: How? Coach: the crowd, I know you are no less than Flash, did you hear anything? etc etc
If light had thought he was cheated himself, he would have done something right there and then. Also remember arguments posted before. If people are going to theorycraft against Flash, its a double standard so eat theorycraft back. (Remember the list of arguments previous which are not even theorycraft)
Flash>>>> Light. is it that hard to accept?
wow you just shat on me with a block of text. I am a flash fan so screw you with your condescending tone of voice, i hate flash fans like you that are like ZOMG FLASH >>> ALL! the fact that im rooting for the same player as you people embarrasses the shit out of me. dont u think the coach and light might have considered the possibility that bringing something like this to light (no pun intended) might generate an outrage from esports fans? I'm sure they aren't retards going "ooh maybe if i insinuate that the booths are faulty people will no longer think flash won legitimately without making us look bad durrrr" there is a chance that it might have gone down exactly the way you described it, but that doesnt mean you should assume that's what happened like all of the flash fanboys in this thread are, that's about as ignorant as MBC fans assuming that flash heard the roar outside but wont admit it. is it so hard for you flash fanboys to understand that 'booth is not soundproof != FLASH IS GOOD'? I personally think flash is tenfolds better than light, but that has nothing to do with the possibility of the booths being not completely soundproof.
I don't think there was anything condescending about AppleTart's tone at all... He was just trying to say that it seems ridiculous that Flash scouted the proxy because he heard something from the audience, especially given that Flash was already scouting in a direction for finding proxies. The audience made the scream AFTER Flash started scouting that area of the map, which implies that Flash planned to scout for proxies to begin with.
Hwaseung Oz pays Jaedong very little compared to other S-class progamers. The team knew that it would start drama and lead to a huge fight between Jaedong and his parents and the Oz coaches, yet the drama still happened.
E-Sports is serious business. People want to win, and sponsors want to make as much money as possible while giving as little as possible. It shouldn't come as any surprise that MBC was angry and wanted to win, especially given that THE SEEDING OF THE WINNER'S LEAGUE FINALS was on the line in that match.
The audience was screaming for many matches in the KT vs MBC set. If the sound was an issue, why is it only an issue for the ace match and none of the matches preceding it? And what does that mean about Sea's 3 wins over KT? If Light heard sound during HIS match, doesn't that mean Sea could have heard things too? Should both teams just replay the entire set?
I like Flash but I have nothing against Light. In my humble opinion, Light had a very good idea going into the game to proxy rax. Flash had prepared a 14cc build prior to the match and he knew that he would be extremely vulnerable to proxies. He scouted in a huge sweeping arc, before even going into the middle of the map, knowing that he would be vulnerable to a proxy rush. That's just the most likely scenario and I think people should just accept it.
I mean, most Flash fans have already accepted the power outage issues with the MSL finals and moved on. I don't think Flash anti fans need to drag this situation out and accuse Flash of cheating, when the scouting path BEFORE THE SCREAMING HAPPENED already indicated that Flash was looking for a proxy.
hey there you go again. this is so frustrating argh did i ever mention anything about a replay? i am in no way suggesting a replay is the way to go. That would be quite ridiculous as the match is over already, at least I think so, and apparently so do Coach Ha and Light. Go back and read my posts before replying to me. If you're too lazy to do so, ill quote myself here:
On March 18 2010 22:58 rotinegg wrote: why are you guys pushing towards a light vs flash argument? clearly mbc's coach said a re-game is out of question, he just wants this potential problem rectified so it won't happen in the future.
And yes, I am very well suggesting that it is a possibility that sea could have heard things too during his matches, and many many other progamers in the entire e-sports history could have too. It is very much a possibility that players can hear things inside their booths, and smart players might decide to capitalize on that, nothing against that, it's their choice and money+reputation is at stake here, so can't blame them if they decide to react upon information that is given to them. Again, not saying that flash did that, so dont get your underwear in a bunch flash fanboys. Coach Ha decided to point out this possibility that the booth might not be completely sound-proof, so that the issue might be looked at by Kespa, and rectified if there is indeed a problem. Is it so hard to understand? why must you always polarize people's thoughts so every thread turns into a huge flamewar? I am not supporting flash fans nor light fans, in fact if anything I think that was a good win from flash, managing to scout the proxy rax fact and star, showing everyone why he is the boss. I am just in support of Coach Ha with his regards to his concerns about the sound-proof-ness of booths, that is all, so don't make me have to repeat myself.
EPT
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![[image loading]](http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/7508/cheese2m.jpg)
Booths
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