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Starcraft pro gaming is one of the best and deepest gaming communities in the world. I'm pretty sure that if something were wrong with the booths after all these years, something would have been done already or there would have been at least ONE other complaint about the sound since the booths were installed.
Also consider this:
Crowds REACT to what the player does. If Flash's SCV was getting closer or turned, the crowd would go nuts at probably exactly the same time, so it would make it seem like the crowd was guiding Flash.
Notice how the coach brought it up and not light. Secondly, if it were true that you could hear through the MBC booth, then all of the previous MBC wins earlier in the round could be considered possibly illegit. I doubt the MBC team would cheat and I like their players, I'm just saying if you are going to rat Flash out for that, you have to consider the previous cases.
To me it clearly looks like the coach was just angry that his Ace player lost to flash (imo its not disgraceful to lose to flash but the coach thinks that apparently).
There are 4 cases (someone mentioned it before)
1. Light heard something and Flash didn't
2. Light didn't hear anything but Flash did
3. Both heard something
4. Neither heard something.
Now think of it this way the coach's opinion is probably always going to be bias and angry toward Flash and ONLY the two players can truly testify.Light said he heard something, Flash didn't seem to say anything. In 2 cases, it actually matters, the other 2, no. We don't really know what happened and only the players can tell us. Who is more trustworthy? Even if lights booth and headphones were faulty, its a wrong assumption to say that Flash's was faulty as well.
In addition, commentators are freaking loud when they say stuff. Has a player or coach ever complained about what a commentator said? (they are actually saying EXACTLY what is going on in the game as well). I mean whenever someone proxies or an arbiter gets close to a base, or a terran is walking and zerg is throwing up sunkens, etc etc etc sometimes the commentators just blow up. They wouldn't make a booth in which you could hear the commentators even when the commentators are screaming
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I am starting to understand why MSL wanted its finals not near the crowd...
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On March 17 2010 22:59 SuperArc wrote:
I am starting to understand why MSL wanted its finals not near the crowd...
And to plug every electronics into one, reliable power source.
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On March 17 2010 22:59 AppleTart wrote:
In addition, commentators are freaking loud when they say stuff. Has a player or coach ever complained about what a commentator said? (they are actually saying EXACTLY what is going on in the game as well). I mean whenever someone proxies or an arbiter gets close to a base, or a terran is walking and zerg is throwing up sunkens, etc etc etc sometimes the commentators just blow up. They wouldn't make a booth in which you could hear the commentators even when the commentators are screaming
This. I've been to the OGN studios and the commentators are broadcasted really loud within the studio.
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First eye hacking , now ear hacking this is geting ridicilues . Next thing you know there will be nose hacking like when someone cheeses the audience starts opening bags of smelly cheese whos smell is so strong it could get to the players booths . I don't even blame the players even if they watch the audience on purpose unless there is a rule from Kespa about this whats wrong at looking at the audience from time to time . People could be waving hands in the audiance like crazy or just screaming their ass of it's korea of course . How does hearing something or seeing someone waving his hands has anything to do with finding a proxy in the first place . Flash opening with a 14 CC will surely be scouting for this things he isn't dumb and after he scouted Lights main being empty it's only natural to scout the proxy factory and the starport . This are stupid atempts at making excuses for why Light lost .
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Flash was clearly already scouting for cheese. Its not like the crowd went wild when he left his natural and went down instead of to the right.
Make like Bob Ross and just let it go...
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That Flash was already scouting seems to be consensus everywhere for the moment actually, since there is no evidence from the game that verifies the ear hack claim. I expect this to die down rapidly unless something crazy happens.
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On March 17 2010 15:28 LunarDestiny wrote:I rewatched the video many times and I can say that the first scv that Flash sent out is a scouting for proxy scv rather than going to your opponent's main scv. Reason behind it is the path that the scv took. But if Flash is just sending his scv to Light's main... (PS: I can spell PATH)Therefore, I can conclude that scv is scouting for proxy. And where are the good spots to proxy, I think Flash knows...
LunarDestiny's argument makes sense.
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On March 18 2010 05:58 johnlee wrote:
LunarDestiny's argument makes sense.
First picture is the path that the SCV took in the game
If the SCV was just being sent to Light's main, it would have taken the route in picture 2
Flash was scouting around for a proxy before the crowd reacted to him being close to finding it. I think it's silly to think that he wouldn't have found it otherwise, he was clearly scouting that entire area on purpose
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Actually, my second picture is wrong. The correct optimal scouting path is this.
But it only further proves that the scv is a scouting for proxy scv.
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On March 17 2010 01:59 Too_MuchZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2010 01:52 11cc wrote:On March 17 2010 01:22 Too_MuchZerg wrote:On March 17 2010 01:19 Roffles wrote:On March 17 2010 01:17 Too_MuchZerg wrote:
Shame that Flash didn't show true sportsmanship and asked for regame rather than silently accepting that he "cheated". Whoa man, it's purely speculation as of now. Definitely too early to call Flash out at all. Things like these, how can you prove it happened? I had "cheated" not cheated because reason you listed Maybe that's the reason he didn't ask for a regame, that he didn't cheat..? Well the situation is this 1. Light heard noise from audience 2. Flash didn't hear noise (if someone asks about it he will deny it) 3. One of them is lying If Flash says that he did hear noise, then why not regame?
Hahahahaha "infallible" logic
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Then every game with cheese will be a regame since people always scream when there is cheese.
"Hey look, they are showing BOXER!" SCREAM
"Hey look, they are showing BISU!" SCREAM
"Hey look, they are showing BOOBS!!!" SCREAM!!!
Another point is Light did not stop the game by "ppp"ing and played it. After he lost, the coach complained. It is definitely not fair to regame at that point.
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I'm with Flash in this situation. Proxying is a very common cheese, so firstly, there must have been at least dozens of times where a player did a proxy in that very stadium. There are things that excite the audience much more than proxying. Ear map has very rarely been called out. I fail to see how competitive SC could even exist if every single time someone proxies, the other player can hear the audience. I don't think that Light honestly heard the audience. Secondly is that Light went through with the proxy and only complained when it didn't work. That is a win-win situation for Light and it's a completely unfair tactic. If he truly believes that it is unfair, call a rm on the spot.
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United States1719 Posts
why are you guys pushing towards a light vs flash argument? clearly mbc's coach said a re-game is out of question, he just wants this potential problem rectified so it won't happen in the future.
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On March 18 2010 22:58 rotinegg wrote:
why are you guys pushing towards a light vs flash argument? clearly mbc's coach said a re-game is out of question, he just wants this potential problem rectified so it won't happen in the future.
This.
No one is saying regame or is anyone trying to take away credit from light or flash. Coach Ha merely stated the booths are not completely sound proof and needs to be looked into and rectified if the claim is legitimate.
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On March 18 2010 22:58 rotinegg wrote:
why are you guys pushing towards a light vs flash argument? clearly mbc's coach said a re-game is out of question, he just wants this potential problem rectified so it won't happen in the future.
Because the coach is a huge troll for bringig this "potential problem" up after that game, suggesting that earmapping was the reason flash won. He should have some manners. Winning the game for KT was huge for flash and it must be awful to afterwards hear some people say it wasn't a real win even though the result won't change.
But I'm over it now, 9 pages was more than enough discussion about this.
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On March 18 2010 22:58 rotinegg wrote:
why are you guys pushing towards a light vs flash argument? clearly mbc's coach said a re-game is out of question, he just wants this potential problem rectified so it won't happen in the future.
Because hes trying to make it seem that Flash's win was illegit and preserve light's dignity (basically hes trying to make it seem that Flash isn't better than Light)
And also, the soundproofness argument has been refuted so many times in the thread already because of the scout path, the fact that Flash was indeed looking for a proxy, the obvious constant loudness of commentators (which no one has EVER complained about, and trust me, they are freaking LOUD), and the possibility of ALL other previous matches becoming illegit.
This coupled with the fact that Light didn't even complain during match and only after discussing with their coach for half a day did they report it, obviously it hints toward sketchy stuff. Also how can you even put a coach's word over Flash, who was actually IN the booth? At best you put lights word equal to flash's, but people are innocent until proven guilty AND the fact that his coach said light said he heard it, light himself didn't say it to the refs. Also how can you make a deduction about both booths from one person's perspective? Maybe only one booth was faulty. The coach is obviously a troll. Its interesting because the coach is trying to preserve this players Dignity, don't you think theres a chance it could have went down like this?
Light: sigh... I'm sad I lost T_T
Coach: That game he had scouted you each time when I was watching, maybe he was cheating
Light: How?
Coach: the crowd, I know you are no less than Flash, did you hear anything?
etc etc
If light had thought he was cheated himself, he would have done something right there and then.
Also remember arguments posted before. If people are going to theorycraft against Flash, its a double standard so eat theorycraft back. (Remember the list of arguments previous which are not even theorycraft)
Flash>>>> Light.
is it that hard to accept?
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The whole thing is silly.
Is this coach dumb enough not to see that Flash was obviously looking for proxy?
People just don't like losing, but that is really inelegant.
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United States1719 Posts
On March 18 2010 23:25 AppleTart wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2010 22:58 rotinegg wrote:
why are you guys pushing towards a light vs flash argument? clearly mbc's coach said a re-game is out of question, he just wants this potential problem rectified so it won't happen in the future. Because hes trying to make it seem that Flash's win was illegit and preserve light's dignity (basically hes trying to make it seem that Flash isn't better than Light) And also, the soundproofness argument has been refuted so many times in the thread already because of the scout path, the fact that Flash was indeed looking for a proxy, the obvious constant loudness of commentators (which no one has EVER complained about, and trust me, they are freaking LOUD), and the possibility of ALL other previous matches becoming illegit. This coupled with the fact that Light didn't even complain during match and only after discussing with their coach for half a day did they report it, obviously it hints toward sketchy stuff. Also how can you even put a coach's word over Flash, who was actually IN the booth? At best you put lights word equal to flash's, but people are innocent until proven guilty AND the fact that his coach said light said he heard it, light himself didn't say it to the refs. Also how can you make a deduction about both booths from one person's perspective? Maybe only one booth was faulty. The coach is obviously a troll. Its interesting because the coach is trying to preserve this players Dignity, don't you think theres a chance it could have went down like this? Light: sigh... I'm sad I lost T_T Coach: That game he had scouted you each time when I was watching, maybe he was cheating Light: How? Coach: the crowd, I know you are no less than Flash, did you hear anything? etc etc If light had thought he was cheated himself, he would have done something right there and then. Also remember arguments posted before. If people are going to theorycraft against Flash, its a double standard so eat theorycraft back. (Remember the list of arguments previous which are not even theorycraft) Flash>>>> Light. is it that hard to accept?
wow you just shat on me with a block of text. I am a flash fan so screw you with your condescending tone of voice, i hate flash fans like you that are like ZOMG FLASH >>> ALL! the fact that im rooting for the same player as you people embarrasses the shit out of me. dont u think the coach and light might have considered the possibility that bringing something like this to light (no pun intended) might generate an outrage from esports fans? I'm sure they aren't retards going "ooh maybe if i insinuate that the booths are faulty people will no longer think flash won legitimately without making us look bad durrrr" there is a chance that it might have gone down exactly the way you described it, but that doesnt mean you should assume that's what happened like all of the flash fanboys in this thread are, that's about as ignorant as MBC fans assuming that flash heard the roar outside but wont admit it. is it so hard for you flash fanboys to understand that 'booth is not soundproof != FLASH IS GOOD'? I personally think flash is tenfolds better than light, but that has nothing to do with the possibility of the booths being not completely soundproof.
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On March 19 2010 03:13 rotinegg wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2010 23:25 AppleTart wrote:On March 18 2010 22:58 rotinegg wrote:
why are you guys pushing towards a light vs flash argument? clearly mbc's coach said a re-game is out of question, he just wants this potential problem rectified so it won't happen in the future. Because hes trying to make it seem that Flash's win was illegit and preserve light's dignity (basically hes trying to make it seem that Flash isn't better than Light) And also, the soundproofness argument has been refuted so many times in the thread already because of the scout path, the fact that Flash was indeed looking for a proxy, the obvious constant loudness of commentators (which no one has EVER complained about, and trust me, they are freaking LOUD), and the possibility of ALL other previous matches becoming illegit. This coupled with the fact that Light didn't even complain during match and only after discussing with their coach for half a day did they report it, obviously it hints toward sketchy stuff. Also how can you even put a coach's word over Flash, who was actually IN the booth? At best you put lights word equal to flash's, but people are innocent until proven guilty AND the fact that his coach said light said he heard it, light himself didn't say it to the refs. Also how can you make a deduction about both booths from one person's perspective? Maybe only one booth was faulty. The coach is obviously a troll. Its interesting because the coach is trying to preserve this players Dignity, don't you think theres a chance it could have went down like this? Light: sigh... I'm sad I lost T_T Coach: That game he had scouted you each time when I was watching, maybe he was cheating Light: How? Coach: the crowd, I know you are no less than Flash, did you hear anything? etc etc If light had thought he was cheated himself, he would have done something right there and then. Also remember arguments posted before. If people are going to theorycraft against Flash, its a double standard so eat theorycraft back. (Remember the list of arguments previous which are not even theorycraft) Flash>>>> Light. is it that hard to accept? wow you just shat on me with a block of text. I am a flash fan so screw you with your condescending tone of voice, i hate flash fans like you that are like ZOMG FLASH >>> ALL! the fact that im rooting for the same player as you people embarrasses the shit out of me. dont u think the coach and light might have considered the possibility that bringing something like this to light (no pun intended) might generate an outrage from esports fans? I'm sure they aren't retards going "ooh maybe if i insinuate that the booths are faulty people will no longer think flash won legitimately without making us look bad durrrr" there is a chance that it might have gone down exactly the way you described it, but that doesnt mean you should assume that's what happened like all of the flash fanboys in this thread are, that's about as ignorant as MBC fans assuming that flash heard the roar outside but wont admit it. is it so hard for you flash fanboys to understand that 'booth is not soundproof != FLASH IS GOOD'? I personally think flash is tenfolds better than light, but that has nothing to do with the possibility of the booths being not completely soundproof.
I don't think there was anything condescending about AppleTart's tone at all... He was just trying to say that it seems ridiculous that Flash scouted the proxy because he heard something from the audience, especially given that Flash was already scouting in a direction for finding proxies. The audience made the scream AFTER Flash started scouting that area of the map, which implies that Flash planned to scout for proxies to begin with.
Hwaseung Oz pays Jaedong very little compared to other S-class progamers. The team knew that it would start drama and lead to a huge fight between Jaedong and his parents and the Oz coaches, yet the drama still happened.
E-Sports is serious business. People want to win, and sponsors want to make as much money as possible while giving as little as possible. It shouldn't come as any surprise that MBC was angry and wanted to win, especially given that THE SEEDING OF THE WINNER'S LEAGUE FINALS was on the line in that match.
The audience was screaming for many matches in the KT vs MBC set. If the sound was an issue, why is it only an issue for the ace match and none of the matches preceding it? And what does that mean about Sea's 3 wins over KT? If Light heard sound during HIS match, doesn't that mean Sea could have heard things too? Should both teams just replay the entire set?
I like Flash but I have nothing against Light. In my humble opinion, Light had a very good idea going into the game to proxy rax. Flash had prepared a 14cc build prior to the match and he knew that he would be extremely vulnerable to proxies. He scouted in a huge sweeping arc, before even going into the middle of the map, knowing that he would be vulnerable to a proxy rush. That's just the most likely scenario and I think people should just accept it.
I mean, most Flash fans have already accepted the power outage issues with the MSL finals and moved on. I don't think Flash anti fans need to drag this situation out and accuse Flash of cheating, when the scouting path BEFORE THE SCREAMING HAPPENED already indicated that Flash was looking for a proxy.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/5056/cheese.jpg)
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