Warrior-350 and I spent half an hour pouring over the vod and screenshotting everything and working out how many minerals were left where etc. Where there were unknowns such as money in the bank and dots on the minimap we rigged it very heavily in favour of Flash. Flash was seen to have 10 marines and 8 medics. While it would be logical to assume his macro would be slowing down because his main was bare and his natural mineral crystals were disappearing we gave him 16 more marines (2 rounds of production) and 1k in the bank. Equally we fucked JD over. His +3 melee had only just started (it was unknown how near completion it was), the only units he had were the ones we'd seen, he had no units being built and nothing in the bank (this was plain cheating, obv he'd either have money or units coming given he was mining). Also every unaccounted for unit on the minimap was assumed to be a pair of zerglings, rather than a defiler or ultralisk. Obv Flash usually macros perfectly so with 8 rax keeping up for 2 bases there is no way he had surplus minerals after his main mined out. But I want to stop people saying "maybe Flash had bank".
So, I don't claim that this save file accurately represents what was in that game. For this to be true JD would need to have stopped mining for a bit and somehow have no units coming while Flash would need to be macroing badly. What this does represent is the absolute best possible scenario Flash could have maybe not really but wishful thinking perhaps been in.
Play it with a friend. Have fun. Give some feedback. I'm well aware it's not 100% accurate because wherever there was doubt I rigged it for Flash. If you can find anything that could have been in Flash's favour that wasn't in this game then say and I'll edit it in. I'm not trying to recreate the game perfectly, I'm trying to demonstrate why Flash loses in that situation, no matter what.
Edit, this works exactly like a rep file. Dl, put it in your save folder rather than rep folder and create. Edit2: thanks to Evochamber for estimations of how much gas would be left etc. I think we got a fair representation of drone count and how heavily the map was mined (while leaving JD far from saturated).
Edit 3: Man save files are buggy. There seems to be some strange and arcane combination of events required to use them. But if you want to take a look at our recreation of the situation then this rep file created from the save file should work. [url blocked] Our play is obviously not great but tbh that's probably how it would go. In the three times we've tested it Terran has been unable to hold his mineral only against the first attack + rally point of zerg units happening some 15 seconds into the replay. Pure mnm and irradiate just doesn't have the firepower to kill 3 wounded ultralisks under swarm, especially with the hatcheries pouring ultraling into the fight.
If you want to try the save file yourself pm me and I'll try and get it working with you on icc.
On January 24 2010 08:19 KwarK wrote: I'm not trying to recreate the game perfectly, I'm trying to demonstrate why Flash loses in that situation, no matter what.
What if he had a control group of bcs. We can't know he didn't, man. Maybe he did. This is flash we're talking about
You have been unfaltering in your reasonable and cool-headed posts since last night. I think as people cool off some more you will find that your arguments have been hitting home.
On January 24 2010 08:19 KwarK wrote: I'm not trying to recreate the game perfectly, I'm trying to demonstrate why Flash loses in that situation, no matter what.
What if he had a control group of bcs. We can't know he didn't, man. Maybe he did. This is flash we're talking about
lol, nice haha but for some reason I think there might be a higher chance of him having carriers ^^
On January 24 2010 08:19 KwarK wrote: I'm not trying to recreate the game perfectly, I'm trying to demonstrate why Flash loses in that situation, no matter what.
What if he had a control group of bcs. We can't know he didn't, man. Maybe he did. This is flash we're talking about
Could've been two control groups man, could've been two. And in game one, where Flash GG'ed, he could've still came back. WE DON'T KNOW MAN.
But thanks for the effort doing this Kwark, but I feel that fanboys are still not gonna be convinced o.o
On the contrary, KwarK's arguments have been screaming "JAEDONG WAS AHEAD" for 8 straight hours and then making a save game where Jaedong's ahead and saying it's rigged for Flash.
The actual "good arguments" have been ones relating to Kespa's unprofessionalism, whether it's right to ever award a game that's not over to someone (imo, no), and what the hell MBC was thinking in the first place with that stupid virtual studio.
On January 24 2010 08:19 KwarK wrote: I'm not trying to recreate the game perfectly, I'm trying to demonstrate why Flash loses in that situation, no matter what.
What if he had a control group of bcs. We can't know he didn't, man. Maybe he did. This is flash we're talking about
Reminds me of this highlight video of oov countering 4 pool by getting a control group or BCs
On January 24 2010 08:30 jalstar wrote: On the contrary, KwarK's arguments have been screaming "JAEDONG WAS AHEAD" for 8 straight hours and then making a save game where Jaedong's ahead and saying it's rigged for Flash.
The actual "good arguments" have been ones relating to Kespa's unprofessionalism, whether it's right to ever award a game that's not over to someone (imo, no), and what the hell MBC was thinking in the first place with that stupid virtual studio.
Load up the save game and pause it. Take a look at how much shit I gave Flash and how little I gave JD. Damn right it's rigged for Flash. But yes, JD is still ahead. That was kinda my point. But I'm glad you agree.
On January 24 2010 08:30 jalstar wrote: The actual "good arguments" have been ones relating to Kespa's unprofessionalism, whether it's right to ever award a game that's not over to someone (imo, no), and what the hell MBC was thinking in the first place with that stupid virtual studio.
Those aren't arguments. They're mostly just bitching.
Nobody liked how events turned out. That's not contentious, which is a feature that is mandatory to have arguments.
On January 24 2010 08:30 jalstar wrote: The actual "good arguments" have been ones relating to Kespa's unprofessionalism, whether it's right to ever award a game that's not over to someone (imo, no), and what the hell MBC was thinking in the first place with that stupid virtual studio.
Those aren't arguments. They're mostly just bitching.
Nobody liked how events turned out. That's not contentious, which is a feature that is mandatory to have arguments.
well that's why "good arguments" is in quotes, because everyone agrees, except for a few people saying the whole thing's fine and dandy because jaedong was ahead
On January 24 2010 08:19 KwarK wrote: I'm not trying to recreate the game perfectly, I'm trying to demonstrate why Flash loses in that situation, no matter what.
What if he had a control group of bcs. We can't know he didn't, man. Maybe he did. This is flash we're talking about
Reminds me of this highlight video of oov countering 4 pool by getting a control group or BCs
I have a replay of Chojja countering a bunker rush with stop lurkers.
On January 24 2010 08:30 jalstar wrote: The actual "good arguments" have been ones relating to Kespa's unprofessionalism, whether it's right to ever award a game that's not over to someone (imo, no), and what the hell MBC was thinking in the first place with that stupid virtual studio.
Those aren't arguments. They're mostly just bitching.
Nobody liked how events turned out. That's not contentious, which is a feature that is mandatory to have arguments.
well that's why "good arguments" is in quotes, because everyone agrees, except for a few people saying the whole thing's fine and dandy because jaedong was ahead
I don't think that Kwark thought the series was fine and dandy. I don't think anyone did. I really think what he is doing is trying to illustrate to the wide world of noobs that Flash wasn't coming back from that. This issue has been irritatingly rampant, so why not applaud Kwark for working to dispel it.
On January 24 2010 08:30 jalstar wrote: The actual "good arguments" have been ones relating to Kespa's unprofessionalism, whether it's right to ever award a game that's not over to someone (imo, no), and what the hell MBC was thinking in the first place with that stupid virtual studio.
Those aren't arguments. They're mostly just bitching.
Nobody liked how events turned out. That's not contentious, which is a feature that is mandatory to have arguments.
well that's why "good arguments" is in quotes, because everyone agrees, except for a few people saying the whole thing's fine and dandy because jaedong was ahead
I don't think that Kwark thought the series was fine and dandy. I don't think anyone did. I really think what he is doing is trying to illustrate to the wide world of noobs that Flash wasn't coming back from that. This issue has been irritatingly rampant, so why not applaud Kwark for working to dispel it.
Because Kwark is a dumbass for not realizing that giving a win to someone in any situation is terrible. A replay would have hurt Jaedong but it also would have been the fair thing to do, and the whole thing with Flash's dad and KT wouldn't have happened, leading to a fairer game 4.
Although there is no truly fair solution with the power going out, and whoever won regardless of what happened after that should get an asterisk next to the win.
On January 24 2010 08:30 jalstar wrote: The actual "good arguments" have been ones relating to Kespa's unprofessionalism, whether it's right to ever award a game that's not over to someone (imo, no), and what the hell MBC was thinking in the first place with that stupid virtual studio.
Those aren't arguments. They're mostly just bitching.
Nobody liked how events turned out. That's not contentious, which is a feature that is mandatory to have arguments.
well that's why "good arguments" is in quotes, because everyone agrees, except for a few people saying the whole thing's fine and dandy because jaedong was ahead
I don't think that Kwark thought the series was fine and dandy. I don't think anyone did. I really think what he is doing is trying to illustrate to the wide world of noobs that Flash wasn't coming back from that. This issue has been irritatingly rampant, so why not applaud Kwark for working to dispel it.
Because Kwark is a dumbass for not realizing that giving a win to someone in any situation is terrible. A replay would have hurt Jaedong but it also would have been the fair thing to do, and the whole thing with Flash's dad and KT wouldn't have happened, leading to a fairer game 4.
Although there is no truly fair solution with the power going out, and whoever won regardless of what happened after that should get an asterisk next to the win.
JaeDong didn't get given a win. He earned a win when he defended Flash's allin at 7 and won the game. Flash hadn't typed out yet but the game was over. The formality of the typing out is important and ideally I'd be all over that. But it's not so important as the denying of a clear cut victory in the MSL finals. And those are your options. Option 1, say "sorry Flash, I know you weren't planning to type out for another 20 seconds but that's the way it is". Option 2, say "sorry JaeDong, you gotta do over, better hope that build works twice lol".
On January 24 2010 08:40 AoN.Warrior-350- wrote: This isnt about mbc/Kespa giving Jaedong the game.... its about the fact that Jaedong did deserve the win...
In a smaller venue I would agree, since no one would want their time wasted with a rematch. But in a Flash vs Jaedong MSL finals? As a fan I wanted a Best of 5 with complete games all around. I don't think anyone would complain about another game of Flash vs Jaedong.
On January 24 2010 08:19 KwarK wrote: I'm not trying to recreate the game perfectly, I'm trying to demonstrate why Flash loses in that situation, no matter what.
What if he had a control group of bcs. We can't know he didn't, man. Maybe he did. This is flash we're talking about
He had his Science Facility lifted somewhere in the middle-right part of the map so that impossible.
On January 24 2010 08:30 jalstar wrote: The actual "good arguments" have been ones relating to Kespa's unprofessionalism, whether it's right to ever award a game that's not over to someone (imo, no), and what the hell MBC was thinking in the first place with that stupid virtual studio.
Those aren't arguments. They're mostly just bitching.
Nobody liked how events turned out. That's not contentious, which is a feature that is mandatory to have arguments.
well that's why "good arguments" is in quotes, because everyone agrees, except for a few people saying the whole thing's fine and dandy because jaedong was ahead
I don't think that Kwark thought the series was fine and dandy. I don't think anyone did. I really think what he is doing is trying to illustrate to the wide world of noobs that Flash wasn't coming back from that. This issue has been irritatingly rampant, so why not applaud Kwark for working to dispel it.
Because Kwark is a dumbass for not realizing that giving a win to someone in any situation is terrible. A replay would have hurt Jaedong but it also would have been the fair thing to do, and the whole thing with Flash's dad and KT wouldn't have happened, leading to a fairer game 4.
Although there is no truly fair solution with the power going out, and whoever won regardless of what happened after that should get an asterisk next to the win.
Stooping to personal attacks hardly makes your rote, inciting, comments more convincing.
On January 24 2010 08:30 jalstar wrote: The actual "good arguments" have been ones relating to Kespa's unprofessionalism, whether it's right to ever award a game that's not over to someone (imo, no), and what the hell MBC was thinking in the first place with that stupid virtual studio.
Those aren't arguments. They're mostly just bitching.
Nobody liked how events turned out. That's not contentious, which is a feature that is mandatory to have arguments.
well that's why "good arguments" is in quotes, because everyone agrees, except for a few people saying the whole thing's fine and dandy because jaedong was ahead
I don't think that Kwark thought the series was fine and dandy. I don't think anyone did. I really think what he is doing is trying to illustrate to the wide world of noobs that Flash wasn't coming back from that. This issue has been irritatingly rampant, so why not applaud Kwark for working to dispel it.
Because Kwark is a dumbass for not realizing that giving a win to someone in any situation is terrible. A replay would have hurt Jaedong but it also would have been the fair thing to do, and the whole thing with Flash's dad and KT wouldn't have happened, leading to a fairer game 4.
Although there is no truly fair solution with the power going out, and whoever won regardless of what happened after that should get an asterisk next to the win.
JaeDong didn't get given a win. He earned a win when he defended Flash's allin at 7 and won the game. Flash hadn't typed out yet but the game was over. The formality of the typing out is important and ideally I'd be all over that. But it's not so important as the denying of a clear cut victory in the MSL finals. And those are your options. Option 1, say "sorry Flash, I know you weren't planning to type out for another 20 seconds but that's the way it is". Option 2, say "sorry JaeDong, you gotta do over, better hope that build works twice lol".
The choice seems pretty clear cut to me.
Let him play on a proleague map then, you'd think that with WL coming up they have builds prepared for those.
To me, the formality is what's important because it's the FINALS. It should be uncontested, and leave us with an undisputed better player. That's not what we got, especially with game 4 being what it was.
On January 24 2010 08:19 KwarK wrote: I'm not trying to recreate the game perfectly, I'm trying to demonstrate why Flash loses in that situation, no matter what.
What if he had a control group of bcs. We can't know he didn't, man. Maybe he did. This is flash we're talking about
He had his Science Facility lifted somewhere in the middle-right part of the map so that impossible.
It's flash, man. He might have built another and left that one out there to throw jaedong off.
On January 24 2010 08:30 jalstar wrote: The actual "good arguments" have been ones relating to Kespa's unprofessionalism, whether it's right to ever award a game that's not over to someone (imo, no), and what the hell MBC was thinking in the first place with that stupid virtual studio.
Those aren't arguments. They're mostly just bitching.
Nobody liked how events turned out. That's not contentious, which is a feature that is mandatory to have arguments.
well that's why "good arguments" is in quotes, because everyone agrees, except for a few people saying the whole thing's fine and dandy because jaedong was ahead
I don't think that Kwark thought the series was fine and dandy. I don't think anyone did. I really think what he is doing is trying to illustrate to the wide world of noobs that Flash wasn't coming back from that. This issue has been irritatingly rampant, so why not applaud Kwark for working to dispel it.
Because Kwark is a dumbass for not realizing that giving a win to someone in any situation is terrible. A replay would have hurt Jaedong but it also would have been the fair thing to do, and the whole thing with Flash's dad and KT wouldn't have happened, leading to a fairer game 4.
Although there is no truly fair solution with the power going out, and whoever won regardless of what happened after that should get an asterisk next to the win.
JaeDong didn't get given a win. He earned a win when he defended Flash's allin at 7 and won the game. Flash hadn't typed out yet but the game was over. The formality of the typing out is important and ideally I'd be all over that. But it's not so important as the denying of a clear cut victory in the MSL finals. And those are your options. Option 1, say "sorry Flash, I know you weren't planning to type out for another 20 seconds but that's the way it is". Option 2, say "sorry JaeDong, you gotta do over, better hope that build works twice lol".
The choice seems pretty clear cut to me.
Let him play on a proleague map then, you'd think that with WL coming up they have builds prepared for those.
To me, the formality is what's important because it's the FINALS. It should be uncontested, and leave us with an undisputed better player. That's not what we got, especially with game 4 being what it was.
You honestly think it'd be less contested if JD won a game in all but name (as he did in game 3) and then had it taken away? Really? Imagine if Flash won game 3 then JD won game 4 and Flash won game 5. Everyone would know that it should have been 3-1. There would still be no doubt that JD won the original game 3, just as there is no doubt about it now. The difference is that it cost him the series.
I don't get how you can say that in order to make the winner less disputed you should take away a win from a player. Someone had to get something. Flash getting a regame would be way more disputable (such as the 3-2 win situation I mentioned above) than this was.
On January 24 2010 08:30 jalstar wrote: The actual "good arguments" have been ones relating to Kespa's unprofessionalism, whether it's right to ever award a game that's not over to someone (imo, no), and what the hell MBC was thinking in the first place with that stupid virtual studio.
Those aren't arguments. They're mostly just bitching.
Nobody liked how events turned out. That's not contentious, which is a feature that is mandatory to have arguments.
well that's why "good arguments" is in quotes, because everyone agrees, except for a few people saying the whole thing's fine and dandy because jaedong was ahead
I don't think that Kwark thought the series was fine and dandy. I don't think anyone did. I really think what he is doing is trying to illustrate to the wide world of noobs that Flash wasn't coming back from that. This issue has been irritatingly rampant, so why not applaud Kwark for working to dispel it.
Because Kwark is a dumbass for not realizing that giving a win to someone in any situation is terrible. A replay would have hurt Jaedong but it also would have been the fair thing to do, and the whole thing with Flash's dad and KT wouldn't have happened, leading to a fairer game 4.
Although there is no truly fair solution with the power going out, and whoever won regardless of what happened after that should get an asterisk next to the win.
JaeDong didn't get given a win. He earned a win when he defended Flash's allin at 7 and won the game. Flash hadn't typed out yet but the game was over. The formality of the typing out is important and ideally I'd be all over that. But it's not so important as the denying of a clear cut victory in the MSL finals. And those are your options. Option 1, say "sorry Flash, I know you weren't planning to type out for another 20 seconds but that's the way it is". Option 2, say "sorry JaeDong, you gotta do over, better hope that build works twice lol".
The choice seems pretty clear cut to me.
Let him play on a proleague map then, you'd think that with WL coming up they have builds prepared for those.
To me, the formality is what's important because it's the FINALS. It should be uncontested, and leave us with an undisputed better player. That's not what we got, especially with game 4 being what it was.
Disputing game 3 is worthless. You finally have come around to making a comment that is relevant to this thread if interpreted a certain way. You frame it in a way that is totally irrelevant though, which is confusing.
Also, to suggest they play on a map for which they did not have the week of preparation is ludicrous. It boggles the mind how you would consider a spur of the moment rematch on a map that wasn't on the lineup would be more fair than awarding the game to the player who was winning by a vast margin.
On January 24 2010 08:19 KwarK wrote: I'm not trying to recreate the game perfectly, I'm trying to demonstrate why Flash loses in that situation, no matter what.
What if he had a control group of bcs. We can't know he didn't, man. Maybe he did. This is flash we're talking about
He had his Science Facility lifted somewhere in the middle-right part of the map so that impossible.
On January 24 2010 08:19 KwarK wrote: I'm not trying to recreate the game perfectly, I'm trying to demonstrate why Flash loses in that situation, no matter what.
What if he had a control group of bcs. We can't know he didn't, man. Maybe he did. This is flash we're talking about
He had his Science Facility lifted somewhere in the middle-right part of the map so that impossible.
As much as I love arguing about this we already have like 2 topics, 2 news and 5 blogs for it. Can we go there? I'll happily continue the argument if you just pm me a link to wherever we're starting it. I wanna get some feedback from players who have tried this save file. Post reps!
On January 24 2010 08:49 Foucault wrote: What about possible dropships?
I took into account starport production and awarded him 2 more vessels than the observer had seen. I also left him more than enough minerals and gas to make 2 dropships. I felt it would be more Flash rigged to give him 2 more vessels than 2 dropships.
On January 24 2010 08:30 jalstar wrote: The actual "good arguments" have been ones relating to Kespa's unprofessionalism, whether it's right to ever award a game that's not over to someone (imo, no), and what the hell MBC was thinking in the first place with that stupid virtual studio.
Those aren't arguments. They're mostly just bitching.
Nobody liked how events turned out. That's not contentious, which is a feature that is mandatory to have arguments.
well that's why "good arguments" is in quotes, because everyone agrees, except for a few people saying the whole thing's fine and dandy because jaedong was ahead
I don't think that Kwark thought the series was fine and dandy. I don't think anyone did. I really think what he is doing is trying to illustrate to the wide world of noobs that Flash wasn't coming back from that. This issue has been irritatingly rampant, so why not applaud Kwark for working to dispel it.
Because Kwark is a dumbass for not realizing that giving a win to someone in any situation is terrible. A replay would have hurt Jaedong but it also would have been the fair thing to do, and the whole thing with Flash's dad and KT wouldn't have happened, leading to a fairer game 4.
Although there is no truly fair solution with the power going out, and whoever won regardless of what happened after that should get an asterisk next to the win.
JaeDong didn't get given a win. He earned a win when he defended Flash's allin at 7 and won the game. Flash hadn't typed out yet but the game was over. The formality of the typing out is important and ideally I'd be all over that. But it's not so important as the denying of a clear cut victory in the MSL finals. And those are your options. Option 1, say "sorry Flash, I know you weren't planning to type out for another 20 seconds but that's the way it is". Option 2, say "sorry JaeDong, you gotta do over, better hope that build works twice lol".
The choice seems pretty clear cut to me.
Let him play on a proleague map then, you'd think that with WL coming up they have builds prepared for those.
To me, the formality is what's important because it's the FINALS. It should be uncontested, and leave us with an undisputed better player. That's not what we got, especially with game 4 being what it was.
You honestly think it'd be less contested if JD won a game in all but name (as he did in game 3) and then had it taken away? Really? Imagine if Flash won game 3 then JD won game 4 and Flash won game 5. Everyone would know that it should have been 3-1. There would still be no doubt that JD won the original game 3, just as there is no doubt about it now. The difference is that it cost him the series.
I don't get how you can say that in order to make the winner less disputed you should take away a win from a player. Someone had to get something. Flash getting a regame would be way more disputable (such as the 3-2 win situation I mentioned above) than this was.
Flash getting a regame wouldn't have led to the hour-long delay and his shaky game 4 performance after seeing his dad erupt at Kespa/MBC. It would have been disputed, no doubt, but not as much as this. No way.
one of the absolutely horrible posters on this site. Whiny, shitty and clueless. Not that i like kwark, i hate him too. But this time he has some reasoning
On January 24 2010 09:02 sassy wrote: dont mind jalstar
one of the absolutely horrible posters on this site. Whiny, shitty and clueless. Not that i like kwark, i hate him too. But this time he has some reasoning
good work here, props
thanks for your great opinion on a 1700+ post poster who's never been banned or warned
On January 24 2010 08:30 jalstar wrote: The actual "good arguments" have been ones relating to Kespa's unprofessionalism, whether it's right to ever award a game that's not over to someone (imo, no), and what the hell MBC was thinking in the first place with that stupid virtual studio.
Those aren't arguments. They're mostly just bitching.
Nobody liked how events turned out. That's not contentious, which is a feature that is mandatory to have arguments.
well that's why "good arguments" is in quotes, because everyone agrees, except for a few people saying the whole thing's fine and dandy because jaedong was ahead
I don't think that Kwark thought the series was fine and dandy. I don't think anyone did. I really think what he is doing is trying to illustrate to the wide world of noobs that Flash wasn't coming back from that. This issue has been irritatingly rampant, so why not applaud Kwark for working to dispel it.
Because Kwark is a dumbass for not realizing that giving a win to someone in any situation is terrible. A replay would have hurt Jaedong but it also would have been the fair thing to do, and the whole thing with Flash's dad and KT wouldn't have happened, leading to a fairer game 4.
Although there is no truly fair solution with the power going out, and whoever won regardless of what happened after that should get an asterisk next to the win.
JaeDong didn't get given a win. He earned a win when he defended Flash's allin at 7 and won the game. Flash hadn't typed out yet but the game was over. The formality of the typing out is important and ideally I'd be all over that. But it's not so important as the denying of a clear cut victory in the MSL finals. And those are your options. Option 1, say "sorry Flash, I know you weren't planning to type out for another 20 seconds but that's the way it is". Option 2, say "sorry JaeDong, you gotta do over, better hope that build works twice lol".
The choice seems pretty clear cut to me.
Let him play on a proleague map then, you'd think that with WL coming up they have builds prepared for those.
To me, the formality is what's important because it's the FINALS. It should be uncontested, and leave us with an undisputed better player. That's not what we got, especially with game 4 being what it was.
You honestly think it'd be less contested if JD won a game in all but name (as he did in game 3) and then had it taken away? Really? Imagine if Flash won game 3 then JD won game 4 and Flash won game 5. Everyone would know that it should have been 3-1. There would still be no doubt that JD won the original game 3, just as there is no doubt about it now. The difference is that it cost him the series.
I don't get how you can say that in order to make the winner less disputed you should take away a win from a player. Someone had to get something. Flash getting a regame would be way more disputable (such as the 3-2 win situation I mentioned above) than this was.
Flash getting a regame wouldn't have led to the hour-long delay and his shaky game 4 performance after seeing his dad erupt at Kespa/MBC. It would have been disputed, no doubt, but not as much as this. No way.
BUT, if it is 2 dropships, the logic makes no sense.
Flash has been spending the last 2 minutes desperately trying to destroy 7 expo, why make 2 dropships instead of 2 vessels?
Making 2 dropships would mean his attempt to crush 7 was out the window, meaning he had given up trying to break 7.
That means, at the moment he begins production of those 2 dropships, he would also have had to realize he'd have to give up trying to attack 7. But that makes no sense since at the time of starport production for those 2 units, he was throwing everything he had at 7.
2 dropships then don't make sense.
And IF there WERE 2 dropships. This puts Jaedong in a better position. Vessel count stays at 3-4 with low energy, and Jaedong can thus muster a force to crush the 9 oclock expo.
Plus those 2 dropships would have to load up every remaining marine + medic and fly across the map to try and disrupt the 3 oclock expo or the main, while leaving the 9 oclock expo completely unreinforced and exposed for the next minute.
I think if it had been 2 dropships or something that would have let Flash get back in then Flash would have told someone about it, instead he seemed to take the defeat, he wasn't the one arguing, it was HOT-Forever, who only saw the cast and is a KT coach, and Flash's dad who probably doesn't know much about SC.
On January 24 2010 09:10 AoN.Warrior-350- wrote: Has anyone tried this yet?
I get the error message "The game creator closed all available spots!" when I try to join the game from my other computer. Anyone know what I am doing wrong?
On January 24 2010 09:10 AoN.Warrior-350- wrote: Has anyone tried this yet?
I get the error message "The game creator closed all available spots!" when I try to join the game from my other computer. Anyone know what I am doing wrong?
On January 24 2010 08:30 jalstar wrote: The actual "good arguments" have been ones relating to Kespa's unprofessionalism, whether it's right to ever award a game that's not over to someone (imo, no), and what the hell MBC was thinking in the first place with that stupid virtual studio.
Those aren't arguments. They're mostly just bitching.
Nobody liked how events turned out. That's not contentious, which is a feature that is mandatory to have arguments.
well that's why "good arguments" is in quotes, because everyone agrees, except for a few people saying the whole thing's fine and dandy because jaedong was ahead
I don't think that Kwark thought the series was fine and dandy. I don't think anyone did. I really think what he is doing is trying to illustrate to the wide world of noobs that Flash wasn't coming back from that. This issue has been irritatingly rampant, so why not applaud Kwark for working to dispel it.
Because Kwark is a dumbass for not realizing that giving a win to someone in any situation is terrible. A replay would have hurt Jaedong but it also would have been the fair thing to do, and the whole thing with Flash's dad and KT wouldn't have happened, leading to a fairer game 4.
Although there is no truly fair solution with the power going out, and whoever won regardless of what happened after that should get an asterisk next to the win.
JaeDong didn't get given a win. He earned a win when he defended Flash's allin at 7 and won the game. Flash hadn't typed out yet but the game was over. The formality of the typing out is important and ideally I'd be all over that. But it's not so important as the denying of a clear cut victory in the MSL finals. And those are your options. Option 1, say "sorry Flash, I know you weren't planning to type out for another 20 seconds but that's the way it is". Option 2, say "sorry JaeDong, you gotta do over, better hope that build works twice lol".
The choice seems pretty clear cut to me.
Let him play on a proleague map then, you'd think that with WL coming up they have builds prepared for those.
To me, the formality is what's important because it's the FINALS. It should be uncontested, and leave us with an undisputed better player. That's not what we got, especially with game 4 being what it was.
You honestly think it'd be less contested if JD won a game in all but name (as he did in game 3) and then had it taken away? Really? Imagine if Flash won game 3 then JD won game 4 and Flash won game 5. Everyone would know that it should have been 3-1. There would still be no doubt that JD won the original game 3, just as there is no doubt about it now. The difference is that it cost him the series.
I don't get how you can say that in order to make the winner less disputed you should take away a win from a player. Someone had to get something. Flash getting a regame would be way more disputable (such as the 3-2 win situation I mentioned above) than this was.
Flash getting a regame wouldn't have led to the hour-long delay and his shaky game 4 performance after seeing his dad erupt at Kespa/MBC. It would have been disputed, no doubt, but not as much as this. No way.
A regame would be fucking ridiculous You'd be pissed if you won the best game of your life and had to throw it out the window. You know it. Fucking Enraged. You'd be pissed if you were clearly losing a game and almost get lucky and get a regame but instead they give the other guy a win. At least you can pretend you have a legitimate reason to be angry.
Thanks kwark, this is amazing (and heavily biased towards Flash! ).
On January 24 2010 09:13 jalstar wrote: I think if it had been 2 dropships or something that would have let Flash get back in then Flash would have told someone about it, instead he seemed to take the defeat, he wasn't the one arguing, it was HOT-Forever, who only saw the cast and is a KT coach, and Flash's dad who probably doesn't know much about SC.
"Hi kespa, I had two dropships that I could have used to rape the shit out of JD. I should be awarded the win instead."
That's just ridiculous. Who would he tell? The crowd, the reporters, the refs?
It seems you need both halfs of the save file for this to work. But we just got it working again. Also you've both got vision and are allied. Forgot to change that before it ended.
On January 24 2010 09:10 AoN.Warrior-350- wrote: Has anyone tried this yet?
I get the error message "The game creator closed all available spots!" when I try to join the game from my other computer. Anyone know what I am doing wrong?
We're working on that.
The player who is trying to join as the terran must have the terran version of the save file and the zerg must have the zerg version of the save file. (From my experience with doing it for practice)
On January 24 2010 08:54 jalstar wrote: Flash getting a regame wouldn't have led to the hour-long delay and his shaky game 4 performance after seeing his dad erupt at Kespa/MBC. It would have been disputed, no doubt, but not as much as this. No way.
And yet you say in a different thread:
jalstar wrote: Kespa made the best of a bad situation here. It's MBC's fault for not having a backup generator.
Kespa didn't give Jaedong a win. Jaedong won the game himself, and the power went out before Flash could GG. I don't get why we have like 100 pages in other threads arguing about the ruling. Yeah, it sucks that it ended the way it did, but that game was over in every aspect except "gg" and anyone thinking Flash had a chance either wasn't watching the game closely or doesn't understand much of Starcraft =/
Everyone has poured over the VOD's. We have the best foreigners agreeing Jaedong had that game 99% won, and now Kwark has rigged this for Flash and he's still in bad shape. Regaming that match would have been outright robbery from Jaedong.
On January 24 2010 09:24 Tsagacity wrote: Kespa didn't give Jaedong a win. Jaedong won the game himself, and the power went out before Flash could GG. I don't get why we have like 100 pages in other threads arguing about the ruling. Yeah, it sucks that it ended the way it did, but that game was over in every aspect except "gg" and anyone thinking Flash had a chance either wasn't watching the game closely or doesn't understand much of Starcraft =/
Everyone has poured over the VOD's. We have the best foreigners agreeing Jaedong had that game 99% won, and now Kwark has rigged this for Flash and he's still in bad shape. Regaming that match would have been outright robbery from Jaedong.
Assuming you meant Idra, this is what he is saying:
On January 23 2010 21:49 IdrA wrote: since you quoted me under support for kespa's decision id like to point out that i thought it should be a regame, no one should be forced to take a loss when theres any appreciable chance of a win left.
wow jalstar, shut the fuck up, you are SO ANNOYING
"and you say this about a 1700+ poster who has never been warned/banned" rofl? your post count isn't like some elo score of how "quality" you are man.
at first i thought that the decision to give Jaedong the win was crazy, but now after realizing how the game was indeed "not close", it seems like the only right thing to do.
i just hate how they delayed so long with bringing it to game 4, obvobvobv
On January 24 2010 09:29 exalted wrote: at first i thought that the decision to give Jaedong the win was crazy, but now after realizing how the game was indeed "not close", it seems like the only right thing to do.
that's exactly what happened with me, i was just more vocal about it
On January 24 2010 08:54 jalstar wrote:Flash getting a regame wouldn't have led to the hour-long delay and his shaky game 4 performance after seeing his dad erupt at Kespa/MBC. It would have been disputed, no doubt, but not as much as this. No way.
This is speculation on your part assuming that JD's side wouldn't rage over the game having to be replayed because of having a game he basically won taken away from him. Also, KT and Flash's dad shouldn't have erupted in the first place so you can't really blame KeSPA or MBC for that. People get pissed off all the time over official decisions. I'm sure the coach of a basketball team would be furious and start a tantrum if his star player was ejected from a game, but should a player not be ejected just to keep the coach happy enough so that he doesn't throw his tantrum?
Obviously nobody is happy about the blackout, but it's a fact that it happened. The biggest thing that seems to be the problem here is that people believe because it's the final, there needs to be no question, but once the blackout happened, that became unavoidable. If there was a re-game, and Flash won, there would have always been the question of whether he indeed deserved that win when he was losing the first time around. It's an unfortunate event, but I believe from a decision standpoint, it was handled the best way it could have been given the point the game was at and the objective facts concerning the players' bases, resources, units, etc. It was enough for a reasonable conclusion to be drawn from it and because of this, they opted to validate the events that already took place in that game rather than void them and throw them away.
There's no doubt to me that the delay probably took a heavy toll on Flash in game 4, but that's not the fault of KeSPA so much as behavior from his father and team that you would normally ascribe to the parents of Little League children.
Ok. We've got the save file working with warrior and I. Bw does not like rep files of saved games (doesn't give the option to save them etc) and I couldn't upload it to repdepot but lastreplay seems to work.
If you want to get a rough idea of what each player might of had pause at the start of this rep and take a look. If you want to see how it might have gone then watch on.
I can't get the saved games to work can somebody help? I put them under starcraft/saved/Warrio Madness but they don't show up in the saved games section on BW. Aren't they supposed to be in .snx format and not .mlx?
On January 24 2010 09:49 Tien wrote: Post results. Did you win or lose as zerg?
Terran died about 20 seconds in. I attacked with the 3 ultralisks the stream confirmed (2 damaged from irradiate as per stream) and the 2 charged defilers. I also had 8 lings, 2 seen and 6 from minimap dots. With 4 swarms and 5 hatcheries rallied to the mineral only Terran just crumbled. 26 marines couldn't stop 3 ultralisks with swarm and consume behind them. Irradiate just made the ultralisks deadlier and I was pretty much going pure ultra.
Game 3 is accepted. I don't find any blame with Kespa here, only MBC.
The biggest letdown was game 4. For about an hour JD had his coaches etc reassuring him and telling him to focus his mind. Flash in the meantime had his Dad and entire team ragequit. It's no wonder JD won the mindgames in game 4.
What I'm interested in hearing about from good players: how much of Flash's play in G4 do you think could be attributed to tilt? The 8 rax seems part of his standard arsenal but after that he let lings in his base several times and sac'ed his MnM into JDs sunkens. I'm wondering how much of that were reasonable Flash actions and how much was out of the ordinary.
On January 24 2010 09:49 Tien wrote: Post results. Did you win or lose as zerg?
Terran died about 20 seconds in. I attacked with the 3 ultralisks the stream confirmed (2 damaged from irradiate as per stream) and the 2 charged defilers. I also had 8 lings, 2 seen and 6 from minimap dots. With 4 swarms and 5 hatcheries rallied to the mineral only Terran just crumbled. 26 marines couldn't stop 3 ultralisks with swarm and consume behind them. Irradiate just made the ultralisks deadlier and I was pretty much going pure ultra.
How high level was your opponent?
Try different strategies.
Try waiting 30 seconds to amass another army.
Just try fucking around, act as if you don't know the 9 is there until 1 minute later.
On January 24 2010 09:49 Tien wrote: Post results. Did you win or lose as zerg?
Terran died about 20 seconds in. I attacked with the 3 ultralisks the stream confirmed (2 damaged from irradiate as per stream) and the 2 charged defilers. I also had 8 lings, 2 seen and 6 from minimap dots. With 4 swarms and 5 hatcheries rallied to the mineral only Terran just crumbled. 26 marines couldn't stop 3 ultralisks with swarm and consume behind them. Irradiate just made the ultralisks deadlier and I was pretty much going pure ultra.
Oh its a pitty we didnt see this happen due to the power failure -_-
On January 24 2010 09:47 KwarK wrote: Ok. We've got the save file working with warrior and I. Bw does not like rep files of saved games (doesn't give the option to save them etc) and I couldn't upload it to repdepot but lastreplay seems to work.
If you want to get a rough idea of what each player might of had pause at the start of this rep and take a look. If you want to see how it might have gone then watch on.
[url blocked]
Autoreplay will also save replays of saved games. But they are extreeemely buggy.
He got bored after the third one but if you're not busy come on icc and we'll try and get it working. I honestly don't see how waiting 30 seconds would do anything but help zerg though. The problem is, despite giving Flash a load of minerals in the bank and 16 marines the stream didn't confirm, mnm and vessels cannot stop ultralisks with swarm. Flash needed tanks and he didn't have them and that is that. I think I could give Flash another 20 marines without changing that. All I'm simulating is what happens when ultralisks under swarm fight mnm and we all know how that goes.
On January 24 2010 09:47 KwarK wrote: Ok. We've got the save file working with warrior and I. Bw does not like rep files of saved games (doesn't give the option to save them etc) and I couldn't upload it to repdepot but lastreplay seems to work.
If you want to get a rough idea of what each player might of had pause at the start of this rep and take a look. If you want to see how it might have gone then watch on.
[url blocked]
Autoreplay will also save replays of saved games. But they are extreeemely buggy.
Yeah, that's the autoreplay of it. It worked when I watched it through but the whole save/rep thing is buggy as hell.
On January 24 2010 09:49 Tien wrote: Post results. Did you win or lose as zerg?
Terran died about 20 seconds in. I attacked with the 3 ultralisks the stream confirmed (2 damaged from irradiate as per stream) and the 2 charged defilers. I also had 8 lings, 2 seen and 6 from minimap dots. With 4 swarms and 5 hatcheries rallied to the mineral only Terran just crumbled. 26 marines couldn't stop 3 ultralisks with swarm and consume behind them. Irradiate just made the ultralisks deadlier and I was pretty much going pure ultra.
Oh its a pitty we didnt see this happen due to the power failure -_-
Hence why KwarK made a simulation to show us that it would happen.
Yeah. The problem is Flash is just pumping mnm and vessels and he simply cannot ever have enough. He needs tanks (and a wall, and +3 mech upgrades, and another 2 bases) to hold onto his min only.
On January 24 2010 10:15 KwarK wrote: Yeah. The problem is Flash is just pumping mnm and vessels and he simply cannot ever have enough. He needs tanks (and a wall, and +3 mech upgrades, and another 2 bases) to hold onto his min only.
:D Because flash wasn't fighting ultras and defliers for 5 minuets beforehand, and your jaedong and the people that your playing are flash, yeah this proves that flash deserved the win
Just drop it dude, it was given to jaedong i dont know why you're trying to argue this
On January 24 2010 10:15 KwarK wrote: Yeah. The problem is Flash is just pumping mnm and vessels and he simply cannot ever have enough. He needs tanks (and a wall, and +3 mech upgrades, and another 2 bases) to hold onto his min only.
:D Because flash wasn't fighting ultras and defliers for 5 minuets beforehand, and your jaedong and the people that your playing are flash, yeah this proves that flash deserved the win
Just drop it dude, it was given to jaedong i dont know why you're trying to argue this
Flash 2 minutes before, 18 mineral patches. Flash at the disc. 12 mineral patches. Flash 30 seconds after the disc. 6 mineral patches. Totally comparable.
On January 24 2010 10:15 KwarK wrote: Yeah. The problem is Flash is just pumping mnm and vessels and he simply cannot ever have enough. He needs tanks (and a wall, and +3 mech upgrades, and another 2 bases) to hold onto his min only.
:D Because flash wasn't fighting ultras and defliers for 5 minuets beforehand, and your jaedong and the people that your playing are flash, yeah this proves that flash deserved the win
Just drop it dude, it was given to jaedong i dont know why you're trying to argue this
Flash 2 minutes before, 18 mineral patches. Flash at the disc. 12 mineral patches. Flash 30 seconds after the disc. 6 mineral patches. Totally comparable.
Ok but still flash had a chance and that was enough for a regame, this recreation of the game shows jd had an advantage yes but its not 100% accurate so you cant say things like jd had the game 99.95% of the time because of this replay
It doesn't need to be 100%, just over 75%. If it's over 75% chance of Jaedong winning then it's less fair to do a rematch. If there's under 75% chance of Jaedong winning then it's less fair to give him the win.
You're skewing the percentages either way, so neither option is completely fair.
i think even if JD was ahead because of the blackout and the win given to JD, flash mental state was completely defeated. this probably effected his performance in game 4 a lot more negatively than if jd straight up won.
I attempted to measure their economies. In the first minute after the blackout, assuming JaeDong doesn't maynard to 1 or make any more drones at 3 or 7, JaeDong earns 1700 minerals and 1300 gas. He made the same in the second minute. By comparison, Flash earned 1600 minerals and 450 gas in the first minute and 1300 minerals and 300 gas in the second. It was at this point that his natural mined out (the first crystals had already disappeared in the vod).
To put that in real terms, Flash is building a science vessel about every 45 seconds while JaeDong is building an ultralisk every 9 seconds.
On January 24 2010 10:15 KwarK wrote: Yeah. The problem is Flash is just pumping mnm and vessels and he simply cannot ever have enough. He needs tanks (and a wall, and +3 mech upgrades, and another 2 bases) to hold onto his min only.
:D Because flash wasn't fighting ultras and defliers for 5 minuets beforehand, and your jaedong and the people that your playing are flash, yeah this proves that flash deserved the win
Just drop it dude, it was given to jaedong i dont know why you're trying to argue this
Flash 2 minutes before, 18 mineral patches. Flash at the disc. 12 mineral patches. Flash 30 seconds after the disc. 6 mineral patches. Totally comparable.
Ok but still flash had a chance and that was enough for a regame, this recreation of the game shows jd had an advantage yes but its not 100% accurate so you cant say things like jd had the game 99.95% of the time because of this replay
There is no convincing the Flash fanboys that it is over unless there is 12 cows running all over the main base and 8 hatcheries being built outside the demolished natural.
KESPA didn't reward Bisu a re-game vs Julyzerg when julyzerg was 99% winning the game.
On January 24 2010 10:15 KwarK wrote: Yeah. The problem is Flash is just pumping mnm and vessels and he simply cannot ever have enough. He needs tanks (and a wall, and +3 mech upgrades, and another 2 bases) to hold onto his min only.
:D Because flash wasn't fighting ultras and defliers for 5 minuets beforehand, and your jaedong and the people that your playing are flash, yeah this proves that flash deserved the win
Just drop it dude, it was given to jaedong i dont know why you're trying to argue this
The reason he's doing this is to refute arguments like this:
On January 24 2010 10:15 KwarK wrote: Yeah. The problem is Flash is just pumping mnm and vessels and he simply cannot ever have enough. He needs tanks (and a wall, and +3 mech upgrades, and another 2 bases) to hold onto his min only.
:D Because flash wasn't fighting ultras and defliers for 5 minuets beforehand, and your jaedong and the people that your playing are flash, yeah this proves that flash deserved the win
Just drop it dude, it was given to jaedong i dont know why you're trying to argue this
Flash 2 minutes before, 18 mineral patches. Flash at the disc. 12 mineral patches. Flash 30 seconds after the disc. 6 mineral patches. Totally comparable.
Ok but still flash had a chance and that was enough for a regame, this recreation of the game shows jd had an advantage yes but its not 100% accurate so you cant say things like jd had the game 99.95% of the time because of this replay
by proving that Flash didn't actually have a chance.
On January 24 2010 10:23 7mk wrote: I dont get the lastreplay to work I'm supposed to load it just like a normal replay? or do something else?
Normal. Sigh. This sucks. If you come on icc I'll try and show you it.
nah, thx but I believe you anyways, I should go to bed T_T damnit this whole debacle caused me to pretty much not do anything today except browse through TL all day
On January 24 2010 12:22 KwarK wrote: Commentator completely ignores the fact there were two defilers there that had both just consumed a few lings each.
On January 24 2010 12:24 KwarK wrote: Also both of them had extractors on them. If you watch the vod you can clearly see this lol.
On January 24 2010 12:24 KwarK wrote: And JaeDong's main and natural were both mining which is more than one base.
On January 24 2010 12:25 KwarK wrote: And at the blackout there were 7 drones at 7 by my count.
Which game was this guy commentating? It sounds interesting.
On January 24 2010 12:25 koreasilver wrote: You translated it wrong. He clearly said "Jaedong was running on both his natural and main" which is 2 bases.
On January 24 2010 12:26 Nytefish wrote: The commentator seems to be talking about what was seen in the "replayed" vod rather than the extra bit before the black out.
Dousing the fire a bit again. I'm not sure what game that commentator was talking about either.
Edit:
On January 24 2010 12:29 KwarK wrote: I forgot to add "1 almost up" to that screenshot too. I think nytefish is right, the commentator is talking about the last big attack Flash did, 20 seconds before the blackout. It was an impressive attack and 2 ultralisks and a few great swarms held it off, killing a lot of marines. The commentator makes a strong case for Flash's last attack being viable. But we saw that attack. We saw the "30 more seconds" the commentator is talking about. JD destroyed Flash's army and Flash abandoned the attack and camped his mineral only.
I just REALLY don't want anyone to take this out of context and start thinking that Flash had an advantage or some stupid nonsense.
How can JD be running on one base when he still has his main, nat, and 3\7? Flash is mined out of his main and almost his nat, but Zerg doesn't have as many workers per base so JD should have minerals left in his main\nat, even if he has no drones at 3 or 7 (he had drones at 7 IIRC).
Nifty. I don't think Flash would have died in 20 seconds; he was microing very well to force Jaedong to leapfrog swarms, and he was doing an ok job of fighting off ultras with medic walls.
But flash was all in for several minutes, and attacks weren't getting any stronger while Jaedong was.
I'd like to see this posted on korean sites when it's finished.
romad, if you pm me or message nO-ViCe on icc i'll see if I can play it through with you. So far I've only been able to successfully play it with warrior-350 but hopefully I can get it to work.
If not, the situation was actually relatively easy to recreate. I'll post my estimates at everything in the game after my nw is done.
On January 24 2010 09:18 gumbum8 wrote: A regame would be fucking ridiculous You'd be pissed if you won the best game of your life and had to throw it out the window. You know it. Fucking Enraged. You'd be pissed if you were clearly losing a game and almost get lucky and get a regame but instead they give the other guy a win. At least you can pretend you have a legitimate reason to be angry.
enraged jaedong = flash dies?
from my perspective, jaedong has often elevated his play even another notch when under pressure.
I thought you had to have the same user name as the players in the game to play in a saved game. At least I remember doing that when I played with friends on LAN, at one point we switched computers (so different save files) and changed our names; and it worked. Of course I could be remembering wrong, it was a long while ago.
Save games are very buggy though, sometimes they're just unplayable for no reason.
Anyway this is a waste of time, I've made a much simpler, accurate depiction of the game:
On January 24 2010 23:04 Nytefish wrote: I thought you had to have the same user name as the players in the game to play in a saved game. At least I remember doing that when I played with friends on LAN, at one point we switched computers (so different save files) and changed our names; and it worked. Of course I could be remembering wrong, it was a long while ago.
Save games are very buggy though, sometimes they're just unplayable for no reason.
Anyway this is a waste of time, I've made a much simpler, accurate depiction of the game:
On January 24 2010 23:04 Nytefish wrote: I thought you had to have the same user name as the players in the game to play in a saved game. At least I remember doing that when I played with friends on LAN, at one point we switched computers (so different save files) and changed our names; and it worked. Of course I could be remembering wrong, it was a long while ago.
Save games are very buggy though, sometimes they're just unplayable for no reason.
Anyway this is a waste of time, I've made a much simpler, accurate depiction of the game:
On January 24 2010 23:04 Nytefish wrote: I thought you had to have the same user name as the players in the game to play in a saved game. At least I remember doing that when I played with friends on LAN, at one point we switched computers (so different save files) and changed our names; and it worked. Of course I could be remembering wrong, it was a long while ago.
Save games are very buggy though, sometimes they're just unplayable for no reason.
Anyway this is a waste of time, I've made a much simpler, accurate depiction of the game:
On January 24 2010 23:04 Nytefish wrote: I thought you had to have the same user name as the players in the game to play in a saved game. At least I remember doing that when I played with friends on LAN, at one point we switched computers (so different save files) and changed our names; and it worked. Of course I could be remembering wrong, it was a long while ago.
Save games are very buggy though, sometimes they're just unplayable for no reason.
Anyway this is a waste of time, I've made a much simpler, accurate depiction of the game:
BUT NO MAN FLASH COULD HAVE WON
WHAT IF HE GOT HIS PAWN TO THE EIGHT RANK
WHAT THEN
My feelings precisely.
It wouldn't matter. This is a terrible example. Checkmate in two moves regardless of who goes first. (by two I mean total. as soon as black moves it's over.)
lol I don't know why people are putting so much effort into this. I thought most of the anger was directed at MBC for having a faulty system. The decision's made and won't be changed regardless of whether it was the right one or not.
If there was a re-game there would have been talk ALL OVER about how there was a conspiracy against Jaedong, and that the blackout was contrived against him. He clearly had the game, there was no fairer way to do it, yes it sucked, but that's the facts.
Funny, to convince a friend of mine of jaedong's commanding position I told him that I'd bet I could have beaten flash if I was playing from jaedong's positioning, and I'm D+ Now with this replay those things can be tried.
Advantage is not a victory. These are two different words with two different meanings no matter how much speculations/analysis/jokes and threads you put on teamliquid trying to prove otherwise. KeSPA decision was just plain bad and stupid, including that the advantage Jaedong had was clearly seen only by experts (without clear proves) and not by ordinary people (99% of the fans) who just watch the game.
On January 26 2010 04:09 anshevshns wrote: Advantage is not a victory. These are two different words with two different meanings no matter how much speculations/analysis/jokes and threads you put on teamliquid trying to prove otherwise. KeSPA decision was just plain bad and stupid, including that the advantage Jaedong had was clearly seen only by experts (without clear proves) and not by ordinary people (99% of the fans) who just watch the game.
So you're saying that the fans should have more credibility than the experts who made the call? Perhaps they should have polled the audience then, huh? -_-
Also, how is it more fair for them to call for a rematch on the same map, which happens to be heavily in favor of T over Z??? It would basically be turning JD's hard earned advantage into Flash's favor and revealing JD's well-planned build in the process. It would force JD into either having to retry the same build that Flash is now fully aware of (good luck with that) or pull something out of his ass. How is that even the slightest bit more fair????
The starcraft its for the fans, not only the experts!!
Im the only guy here that believes that kwark its fighting with itself?? He`s right about the game, but only in a statistics and theorycrafting aproaching. The discussion its beyond of this, many of you are SO cold. Really, fun its the final purpose in all games!!!
EPT
, and for staying cool-headed for a long time for these past couple of hours. 
![[image loading]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v618/ikonyte/diagramikphp.jpg)
