|
Korea (South)3086 Posts
I don't understand why people are talking like Flash is using some gimmicky as build. The metagame he's using is definitely different (early aggression with early group of MnM's) but it's not some build like Leta's 2port Wraiths. Flash is as standard as they come, it just shows how ridiculous his mechanics and game sense is.
|
All the progamers commented that they were surprised to see so many spectators to watch "the games," but most likely they came to watch "the game," aka Flash vs Jaedong. Pity most probably ended up disappointed. I wonder if the other progamers realized that.
|
On December 20 2009 13:44 Zoler wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2009 07:59 lone_hydra wrote:On December 20 2009 07:42 dukethegold wrote:On December 20 2009 07:20 lone_hydra wrote:On December 20 2009 02:05 dukethegold wrote:
Flash did not just win, he raped the Dong. He made the Dong look like a no name Zerg.
If Shine somehow knocks Stork out of the tournament, I severely doubt anyone remaining in the two Starleagues is even remotely capable of challenging Flash in a BOX series.
Flash's TvZ is very very good. But as shown by the Zero and Hyun game, its not invincible and it gets less invincible as the days grow since he uses the same strat. Every zerg remaining has the capabilities to watch his replays and prepare themselves enough to put up a damn good challenge to Flash's TvZ. Nope. Flash lost his game against Hyun because he made a very silly mistake at the beginning. He did not make a turret next to his mineral line. Due to that, he lost like, what, 15 scv to muta. If he placed just that one more turret, he would have won. I am sure he won't make the same mistake ever again. But what's fricking amazing about Flash v.s. Hyun is that despite Hyun gain such an overwhelming upperhand at the beginning of the match, and had double the economy and double of the army over Flash, Flash stayed alive in the game until he was completely mined out. His TvZ is unreal. It is safely to start calling FvZ now. Face it, no Zerg in existence is capable of taking a BOX series from Flash. Dong was the only Zerg left with a chance and he got raped hard. It was just one game, yes, but it wasn't even close. Also, what strategy are you talking about? Flash won his game against Jaedong by denying Jaedong's third gas. If that is the strategy that you are talking about, show me couple more games from recent times when he won using the exact same strategy. I don't think out-micro, out-macro, out-play, and out-starsense count as strategy. This is like Iloveoov domination. It's just pure skill, there is no gimmicks, there is nothing you can do about it. Wow,super fanboy alert. He goes this build every time zerg 12 hatchs. barracks, cc, bunker at natural, then medics marines. Alot of turrets in natural, turrets surrounding outskirts of main with medic and marine protecting if he scans mutas. Then he goes for the infamous terran ball push while doing a good job of denying third. he sits on 2 bases for quite a while until he is sure he has map control and expands. Flash did not make a mistake in not building turrets in main min line vs Hyun. He almost never does, because he feels he could intimidate the opponent from going into his main with turrets outside and marines inside. No zergs would want to see all those turrets on the outskirts and marines of the main then go in towards the main min line to find more turrets and get trapped between turrets and marine fire. Hyun watched Flash's replays and realized thats what Flash wanted him to think and called Flash's bluff. It was not that impressive to see a progamer survive that long in that situation either. You are macroing off of 2 almost mined out bases so it does not take that much APM to micro well vs a guy who is macroing of of 6 bases. I'm not saying his BO and strategy is bad, if it works keep on doing it. But eventually the zergs will be practiced enough against Flash's strat. just like what happened to Bisu build. Omg. This is one of the dumbest posts I've ever read. Everything you wrote was garbage and retarded. "You are macroing off of 2 almost mined out bases so it does not take that much APM to micro well vs a guy who is macroing of of 6 bases." I just don't know what to say. I'm sitting here with my mouth wide open.
Ok I worded that bad. Let me rephrase. Flash had 2 bases to macro from while microing. Hyun had 6 bases to macro from while microing. So obviously Flash's micro is gonna look alot better in comparison to hyuns.You cannot say is micro was godly in comparison to other pro gamers just from that. How does that not make sense???
I never said Flash was bad or his build or his strartegy is gimmicky. I just said he goes for practically the same strategy every time when he deals with 12 hatch. Watch his games people. And all I am saying is that eventually zergs are gonna learn to deal with it alot better like they learnt to deal with bisu build. is it that much of a ridiculous statement?
|
On December 20 2009 07:42 dukethegold wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2009 07:20 lone_hydra wrote:On December 20 2009 02:05 dukethegold wrote:
Flash did not just win, he raped the Dong. He made the Dong look like a no name Zerg.
If Shine somehow knocks Stork out of the tournament, I severely doubt anyone remaining in the two Starleagues is even remotely capable of challenging Flash in a BOX series.
Flash's TvZ is very very good. But as shown by the Zero and Hyun game, its not invincible and it gets less invincible as the days grow since he uses the same strat. Every zerg remaining has the capabilities to watch his replays and prepare themselves enough to put up a damn good challenge to Flash's TvZ. Nope. Flash lost his game against Hyun because he made a very silly mistake at the beginning. He did not make a turret next to his mineral line. (Flash and Turret, a never ending tragic tale of epic proportion) Due to that, he lost like, what, 15 scv to muta. If he placed just that one more turret, he would have won. I am sure he won't make the same mistake ever again. But what's fricking amazing about Flash v.s. Hyun is that despite Hyun gain such an overwhelming upperhand at the beginning of the match, and had double the economy and double of the army over Flash, Flash stayed alive in the game until he was completely mined out. His TvZ is unreal. It is safely to start calling FvZ now. Face it, no Zerg in existence is capable of taking a BOX series from Flash. Dong was the only Zerg left with a chance and he got raped hard. It was just one game, yes, but it wasn't even close. Also, what strategy are you talking about? Flash won his game against Jaedong by denying Jaedong's third gas. If that is the strategy that you are talking about, show me couple more games from recent times when he won using the exact same strategy. I don't think out-micro, out-macro, out-play, and out-starsense count as strategy. This is like Iloveoov domination. It's just pure skill, there is no gimmicks, there is nothing you can do about it.
Sigh. JD has lost games in embarassing fashion and he has no problem turning around and raping the very next game. Your analysis based on a single game is just plain fail. And Zero's game vs Flash was close until his epic hive-play fail. Flash is not a god. He's just very good.
|
I agree that it will just take Zergs a little time to counter Flash's new style of play. The solution to a group of marines roaming the middle of the map is probably just to delay the third base a little and mutaling the rines down. For some reason this game JD decided to build the third base earlier instead which was obviously a terrible decision and JD knew he lost after he was forced to cancel it (hence the attempt at a "counter").
I don't think Flash's new style is as invincible as people seem to think it is. This game wasn't Flash outclassing JD in every way or anything, and I still think JD is capable of defeating Flash. I will be very surprised if JD doesn't have an answer to Flash's attempts to delay the third in their next games.
|
I don't know. Nothing is invincible, but I've always felt that Flash would be nearly invincible in TvZ if he did two things: 1. Act like its a PvZ and scout constantly and 2. Focus on marines and turrets rather than teching. Those two things he did in that game.
Flash doesn't really need vessels that quickly because lurkers are little threat to him. Mutas are, but if he puts a premium on getting crazy amounts of marines, he can deal with them.
|
On December 20 2009 13:54 lone_hydra wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2009 13:44 Zoler wrote:On December 20 2009 07:59 lone_hydra wrote:On December 20 2009 07:42 dukethegold wrote:On December 20 2009 07:20 lone_hydra wrote:On December 20 2009 02:05 dukethegold wrote:
Flash did not just win, he raped the Dong. He made the Dong look like a no name Zerg.
If Shine somehow knocks Stork out of the tournament, I severely doubt anyone remaining in the two Starleagues is even remotely capable of challenging Flash in a BOX series.
Flash's TvZ is very very good. But as shown by the Zero and Hyun game, its not invincible and it gets less invincible as the days grow since he uses the same strat. Every zerg remaining has the capabilities to watch his replays and prepare themselves enough to put up a damn good challenge to Flash's TvZ. Nope. Flash lost his game against Hyun because he made a very silly mistake at the beginning. He did not make a turret next to his mineral line. Due to that, he lost like, what, 15 scv to muta. If he placed just that one more turret, he would have won. I am sure he won't make the same mistake ever again. But what's fricking amazing about Flash v.s. Hyun is that despite Hyun gain such an overwhelming upperhand at the beginning of the match, and had double the economy and double of the army over Flash, Flash stayed alive in the game until he was completely mined out. His TvZ is unreal. It is safely to start calling FvZ now. Face it, no Zerg in existence is capable of taking a BOX series from Flash. Dong was the only Zerg left with a chance and he got raped hard. It was just one game, yes, but it wasn't even close. Also, what strategy are you talking about? Flash won his game against Jaedong by denying Jaedong's third gas. If that is the strategy that you are talking about, show me couple more games from recent times when he won using the exact same strategy. I don't think out-micro, out-macro, out-play, and out-starsense count as strategy. This is like Iloveoov domination. It's just pure skill, there is no gimmicks, there is nothing you can do about it. Wow,super fanboy alert. He goes this build every time zerg 12 hatchs. barracks, cc, bunker at natural, then medics marines. Alot of turrets in natural, turrets surrounding outskirts of main with medic and marine protecting if he scans mutas. Then he goes for the infamous terran ball push while doing a good job of denying third. he sits on 2 bases for quite a while until he is sure he has map control and expands. Flash did not make a mistake in not building turrets in main min line vs Hyun. He almost never does, because he feels he could intimidate the opponent from going into his main with turrets outside and marines inside. No zergs would want to see all those turrets on the outskirts and marines of the main then go in towards the main min line to find more turrets and get trapped between turrets and marine fire. Hyun watched Flash's replays and realized thats what Flash wanted him to think and called Flash's bluff. It was not that impressive to see a progamer survive that long in that situation either. You are macroing off of 2 almost mined out bases so it does not take that much APM to micro well vs a guy who is macroing of of 6 bases. I'm not saying his BO and strategy is bad, if it works keep on doing it. But eventually the zergs will be practiced enough against Flash's strat. just like what happened to Bisu build. Omg. This is one of the dumbest posts I've ever read. Everything you wrote was garbage and retarded. "You are macroing off of 2 almost mined out bases so it does not take that much APM to micro well vs a guy who is macroing of of 6 bases." I just don't know what to say. I'm sitting here with my mouth wide open. Ok I worded that bad. Let me rephrase. Flash had 2 bases to macro from while microing. Hyun had 6 bases to macro from while microing. So obviously Flash's micro is gonna look alot better in comparison to hyuns.You cannot say is micro was godly in comparison to other pro gamers just from that. How does that not make sense???
Have you played M&M? It's definitely possible to macro off 4+ Zerg bases (here's a tip - did you know you can hotkey almost every production Hatchery...) as easily as it is to macro off of 7 or 8 Rax. The marine timing is ridiculous - you basically can't miss a single round or it starts adding up, whereas with Zerg you're basically ok in the long run or late game as long as you don't let your hatches get to three larvae, which takes waaaaaaay longer than a Marine production round. Terran also has to hotkey nearly every Marine to maximize their effectiveness (otherwise you will over/under stim) which is another thing Zerg does not have to do.
So yes, it is grossly misleading to say 6 base > 2 base in terms of difficulty to use. Not saying Zerg is easy (personally I find it to be the hardest actually) by any means. But your point is very flawed.
|
On December 20 2009 14:04 QuakerOats wrote:
I agree that it will just take Zergs a little time to counter Flash's new style of play. The solution to a group of marines roaming the middle of the map is probably just to delay the third base a little and mutaling the rines down.
I don't think this is as easy as it sounds. It's not like Flash's roaming style is new ... there must be more subtlety to it than it looks. Flash is roaming when he feels he can roam (watching army/sunken/drone/hatchery count to judge) and he often gets his money's worth when his roaming group gets killed. Also he's been pretty careful with positioning them and you can lose a ton of units trying to kill a group of M&M if they're at a choke or on a ramp as Zerg, enough to justify the cost.
On December 20 2009 14:04 QuakerOats wrote:
This game wasn't Flash outclassing JD in every way or anything
Actually, that one game was absolutely Flash outclassing JD in every way. But as players, no of course Flash does not outclass JD. If anyone can figure out a way, JD can. But that one game - there was nothing JD did better or even equally as good as Flash.
|
On December 20 2009 15:07 darktreb wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2009 13:54 lone_hydra wrote:On December 20 2009 13:44 Zoler wrote:On December 20 2009 07:59 lone_hydra wrote:On December 20 2009 07:42 dukethegold wrote:On December 20 2009 07:20 lone_hydra wrote:On December 20 2009 02:05 dukethegold wrote:
Flash did not just win, he raped the Dong. He made the Dong look like a no name Zerg.
If Shine somehow knocks Stork out of the tournament, I severely doubt anyone remaining in the two Starleagues is even remotely capable of challenging Flash in a BOX series.
Flash's TvZ is very very good. But as shown by the Zero and Hyun game, its not invincible and it gets less invincible as the days grow since he uses the same strat. Every zerg remaining has the capabilities to watch his replays and prepare themselves enough to put up a damn good challenge to Flash's TvZ. Nope. Flash lost his game against Hyun because he made a very silly mistake at the beginning. He did not make a turret next to his mineral line. Due to that, he lost like, what, 15 scv to muta. If he placed just that one more turret, he would have won. I am sure he won't make the same mistake ever again. But what's fricking amazing about Flash v.s. Hyun is that despite Hyun gain such an overwhelming upperhand at the beginning of the match, and had double the economy and double of the army over Flash, Flash stayed alive in the game until he was completely mined out. His TvZ is unreal. It is safely to start calling FvZ now. Face it, no Zerg in existence is capable of taking a BOX series from Flash. Dong was the only Zerg left with a chance and he got raped hard. It was just one game, yes, but it wasn't even close. Also, what strategy are you talking about? Flash won his game against Jaedong by denying Jaedong's third gas. If that is the strategy that you are talking about, show me couple more games from recent times when he won using the exact same strategy. I don't think out-micro, out-macro, out-play, and out-starsense count as strategy. This is like Iloveoov domination. It's just pure skill, there is no gimmicks, there is nothing you can do about it. Wow,super fanboy alert. He goes this build every time zerg 12 hatchs. barracks, cc, bunker at natural, then medics marines. Alot of turrets in natural, turrets surrounding outskirts of main with medic and marine protecting if he scans mutas. Then he goes for the infamous terran ball push while doing a good job of denying third. he sits on 2 bases for quite a while until he is sure he has map control and expands. Flash did not make a mistake in not building turrets in main min line vs Hyun. He almost never does, because he feels he could intimidate the opponent from going into his main with turrets outside and marines inside. No zergs would want to see all those turrets on the outskirts and marines of the main then go in towards the main min line to find more turrets and get trapped between turrets and marine fire. Hyun watched Flash's replays and realized thats what Flash wanted him to think and called Flash's bluff. It was not that impressive to see a progamer survive that long in that situation either. You are macroing off of 2 almost mined out bases so it does not take that much APM to micro well vs a guy who is macroing of of 6 bases. I'm not saying his BO and strategy is bad, if it works keep on doing it. But eventually the zergs will be practiced enough against Flash's strat. just like what happened to Bisu build. Omg. This is one of the dumbest posts I've ever read. Everything you wrote was garbage and retarded. "You are macroing off of 2 almost mined out bases so it does not take that much APM to micro well vs a guy who is macroing of of 6 bases." I just don't know what to say. I'm sitting here with my mouth wide open. Ok I worded that bad. Let me rephrase. Flash had 2 bases to macro from while microing. Hyun had 6 bases to macro from while microing. So obviously Flash's micro is gonna look alot better in comparison to hyuns.You cannot say is micro was godly in comparison to other pro gamers just from that. How does that not make sense??? Have you played M&M? It's definitely possible to macro off 4+ Zerg bases (here's a tip - did you know you can hotkey almost every production Hatchery...) as easily as it is to macro off of 7 or 8 Rax. The marine timing is ridiculous - you basically can't miss a single round or it starts adding up, whereas with Zerg you're basically ok in the long run or late game as long as you don't let your hatches get to three larvae, which takes waaaaaaay longer than a Marine production round. Terran also has to hotkey nearly every Marine to maximize their effectiveness (otherwise you will over/under stim) which is another thing Zerg does not have to do. So yes, it is grossly misleading to say 6 base > 2 base in terms of difficulty to use. Not saying Zerg is easy (personally I find it to be the hardest actually) by any means. But your point is very flawed.
Hmm... really interesting. If thats true then I guess my argument is pretty invalid. But consuming and dark swarms along with scourge take up apm as well. Even if terran requires so much more apm to macro and micro, I still find it hard to wrap my head around a 2 base terran having a harder time to micro and macro compared to a 6 base zerg.
Thanks for the insight anyways.
And I'll still stick to my view that Flash did not lose because of a mistake. He tried to bluff the number of turrets he had and Hyun called his bluff.
|
On December 20 2009 14:02 StorkHwaiting wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2009 07:42 dukethegold wrote:On December 20 2009 07:20 lone_hydra wrote:On December 20 2009 02:05 dukethegold wrote:
Flash did not just win, he raped the Dong. He made the Dong look like a no name Zerg.
If Shine somehow knocks Stork out of the tournament, I severely doubt anyone remaining in the two Starleagues is even remotely capable of challenging Flash in a BOX series.
Flash's TvZ is very very good. But as shown by the Zero and Hyun game, its not invincible and it gets less invincible as the days grow since he uses the same strat. Every zerg remaining has the capabilities to watch his replays and prepare themselves enough to put up a damn good challenge to Flash's TvZ. Nope. Flash lost his game against Hyun because he made a very silly mistake at the beginning. He did not make a turret next to his mineral line. (Flash and Turret, a never ending tragic tale of epic proportion) Due to that, he lost like, what, 15 scv to muta. If he placed just that one more turret, he would have won. I am sure he won't make the same mistake ever again. But what's fricking amazing about Flash v.s. Hyun is that despite Hyun gain such an overwhelming upperhand at the beginning of the match, and had double the economy and double of the army over Flash, Flash stayed alive in the game until he was completely mined out. His TvZ is unreal. It is safely to start calling FvZ now. Face it, no Zerg in existence is capable of taking a BOX series from Flash. Dong was the only Zerg left with a chance and he got raped hard. It was just one game, yes, but it wasn't even close. Also, what strategy are you talking about? Flash won his game against Jaedong by denying Jaedong's third gas. If that is the strategy that you are talking about, show me couple more games from recent times when he won using the exact same strategy. I don't think out-micro, out-macro, out-play, and out-starsense count as strategy. This is like Iloveoov domination. It's just pure skill, there is no gimmicks, there is nothing you can do about it. Sigh. JD has lost games in embarassing fashion and he has no problem turning around and raping the very next game. Your analysis based on a single game is just plain fail. And Zero's game vs Flash was close until his epic hive-play fail. Flash is not a god. He's just very good.
I indeed stated that it was just one single game. However, Flash's current form against Zerg is not based on single game, it is based on a mind bottling 25-1 victories against Zergs (I am not counting the one game where Flash nuked himself, twice, on purpose). Almost every single one of them was a one sided domination. I DID NOT call Flash god, so don't put words into my mouth. What I meant, is that Flash has met every single standard that Jaedong met when people started to call Jaedong v.s. Zerg, JvZ.
Most people expressed doubt in Flash's TvZ because he has yet to prove his skill against a top level player (not counting Effort in WCG). And now, he has met that standard, or is very close to achieving it. He defeated Jaedong and Zero in convincing manners. At this point, it is an safe to say that neither Jaedong nor Zero is likely to win their respective BOX series against Flash, especially Zero, who will have to worry about Movie.
What I do find interest, is on what basis that you are claiming that Jaedong will definitely rape Flash during their next BOX series? Jaedong is capable of defeating Flash, yes, theoretically speaking. But I have not seen any solid evidence of such as of yet. Jaedong will practice his ass off. But so will Flash. And Flash got only TvZ to worried about in his starleague runs.
Also Flash stated that his condition was bad during his game v.s. Zero due to freezing temperature. I don't think Flash is the type who boasts. The man was telling the truth.
|
Pretty funny that flash says HBR is a good zerg map just because it's almost 50/50! God forbid zerg have a chance  .
|
On December 21 2009 01:54 On_Slaught wrote:Pretty funny that flash says HBR is a good zerg map just because it's almost 50/50! God forbid zerg have a chance .
well since TvZ favours the Terran, a 50/50 map does favour the zerg :p
|
On December 21 2009 02:04 SuperArc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2009 01:54 On_Slaught wrote:Pretty funny that flash says HBR is a good zerg map just because it's almost 50/50! God forbid zerg have a chance . well since TvZ favours the Terran, a 50/50 map does favour the zerg :p
Intereting way of looking at it. It's not exactly 50/50 (terran has more wins on it), but if the fundamental idea behind any rts is that either ide has an equal chance to win each outing. Noone should ever complain about a map being equal is what i'm saying.
|
Flash's "new style", wtf? Since when is this a "new style" that needs to be countered? This is age-old TvZ. Roaming around the center of the map, really? Holy shit, why didn't anyone think of that before? Oh wait, its been standard for ages for Terran to shut down the middle of the map. Deny the third gas, oh wait, that's been one of the two major ways T has used to attempt to dominate the matchup for ages.
Sure, there may be subtle things going on, but its still basically TvZ 1-0-fucking-1 Progamer style. Flash is just a monster at execution.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
