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On December 15 2009 23:06 nataziel wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2009 20:11 emucxg wrote:
comparing esport with soccer is ridiculous How so? I'm just saying that on a physical level, casual fans can't understand how hard what progamers are doing is because they can't actually see them doing it. This is why it's a lot harder to get into and understand a game of starcraft than an actual physical contest like soccer or any other physical sport you can mention, not to also mention the tactics and mindgames that go into every strategy, the existence of concepts like timing windows and such.
Well, not necessarily. Every sport has hardcore and casual fans. Casual fans don't just go to soccer games JUST to see someone execute something difficult. As I mentioned in my previous post; a hardcore soccer fan who follows the teams (like we do for SC) will be able to understand the reasons for player set-up on the field, will be able to see a series of complex assists, will be able to understand reasons for player swap-ins and outs. However a casual fan does not need to see or understand absolutely everything what's going on in the game. A casual soccer fan will see a goal being scored in the same way a casual SC fan will see 2 armies collide, or some very impressive harassment. However both fans won't necessarily know the set-up that was needed to achieve a certain result. Both are eye-candies in the end to the casual without any technical babble.
eSports just needs to be proliferated, supported, and its atmosphere sold, which it hardly is right now outside of Korea. This is where Boxer's analogy of Korea being the driver and China the engine is great.
Bridge is a sport according to the International Olympic Committee. It's recognized and supported, even without the amount of followers soccer has.
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We have to acknowledge that Starcraft has peaked in Korea. Its best days are behind it. However, we must always remember what an amazing and awesome phenomenon it's been, that we got at least 10 years out of it and will probably have a few more to look forward to (depending on SC2).
At this point, the future must depend on two things: SC2 and China. If the correct seasonings are used and the right ingredients mixed, there is a potential for an explosion in popularity of this kind of gaming; after all, SC 2 will sell millions in NA/Europe/Korea/China, and will bring a huge amount of attention and rope in millions of new players. At the same time, the "restart" it affords means that Korean monopoly on the highest tiers of Starcraft may be realistically challenged and should drive Chinese professional leagues (and EU/NA leagues) to compete harder and better.
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A lot of negativity in this thread, but I watched KT vs MBC yesterday and there were a lot of spectators present. Hardly a seat left untouched.
And I believe Mr. Hoon said the other day that the Boxer vs Yellow PL game a couple of weeks ago got very high ratings. So there must still be a lot of interest. Sure, it's probably past its peak, but I think it'll be a long time before the professional Starcraft scene dies.
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Disclaimer: Heresy committed below.
I really feel like Boxer lacks perspective on this particular matter. Think about how the world looks from his point of view.
Years ago, whenever he did anything, he was at the complete top of his game. Not only that, but the people around him, his peers and colleagues, were also at the complete top of their game. So whenever he wasn't on top, things were still OK because there was an established order.
Nowadays, people are still very excited to see him play anything, but not quite as many people. The cheers are not quite as loud, and the sun is (slowly) setting on his career as a player (as opposed to his career in coaching or commentary or whatever he chooses to do). This kind of thing, this gradual change from being a star to being a historical figure, changes the way a person views things.
I disagree strongly about the state of Starcraft, especially worldwide! Think of how many people would have never even heard of Starcraft if it wasn't for GOMTV, for example. And if people thought TSL was big shit, then TSL2 is gonna shock them. The Chinese community has had a big break with Starcraft as well. It will take time for their community to mix with ours, but it will happen.
Then there's Starcraft 2. SC2 might be the best thing that happened to Starcraft (as a concept, and not as a game). Walmart and Best Buy are selling the Battle Chest for 20-30 USD.
Starcraft is as strong as it has ever been despite what any of the old guard fans will tell you.
PS
<3 sAviOr
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On December 16 2009 09:51 DefMatrixUltra wrote:
Disclaimer: Heresy committed below.
I really feel like Boxer lacks perspective on this particular matter. Think about how the world looks from his point of view.
Years ago, whenever he did anything, he was at the complete top of his game. Not only that, but the people around him, his peers and colleagues, were also at the complete top of their game. So whenever he wasn't on top, things were still OK because there was an established order.
Nowadays, people are still very excited to see him play anything, but not quite as many people. The cheers are not quite as loud, and the sun is (slowly) setting on his career as a player (as opposed to his career in coaching or commentary or whatever he chooses to do). This kind of thing, this gradual change from being a star to being a historical figure, changes the way a person views things.
I disagree strongly about the state of Starcraft, especially worldwide! Think of how many people would have never even heard of Starcraft if it wasn't for GOMTV, for example. And if people thought TSL was big shit, then TSL2 is gonna shock them. The Chinese community has had a big break with Starcraft as well. It will take time for their community to mix with ours, but it will happen.
Then there's Starcraft 2. SC2 might be the best thing that happened to Starcraft (as a concept, and not as a game). Walmart and Best Buy are selling the Battle Chest for 20-30 USD.
Starcraft is as strong as it has ever been despite what any of the old guard fans will tell you.
PS
<3 sAviOr
The Korean audience numbers are down(Possibly way down?). It's been talked about multiple times in the last year or two.
The worldwide pro-scene audience has some growth but really as far as I know GOM vods would only get a few thousand views after posted and the live stream I can't imagine having more than a few thousand viewers. These aren't serious revenue numbers. I'm actually surprised GOM had an english language version as long as they did, and I wonder how much Tasteless and Daniel and the tech staff were paid because that whole thing must have been operating at nearly a 100% loss.
As far as people playing on bnet and iccup... I mean people still play the game. Don't think its as many as a few years back let alone 98-03 numbers.
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On December 15 2009 04:02 ]343[ wrote:wait SKT has a chinese player? /behind 
who?
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pj and lx were on skt1 before.
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I dont think replays is bad as a whole. But I do think they tell way too much information. Like, just cutting off the min/gas count they show would help solve this problem tremendously. They should make the replays be more like observe mode, rather than showing everything that goes on in the player's mind.
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Those bashing Boxer's opinion on replays need to give him some respect. Boxer was NOT sour, he was just concerned about the hard works and the rights of the truly talented progamers. Boxer's been complaining about replays back when he was still in his prime, and he wasn't the only one.
Some may not be aware that Boxer has been in the scene pre-1.08 i.e BEFORE the replay feature was created. He obviously understood the pros and cons it brought to the development of competitive gaming.
If I remember correctly Boxer and a few other progamers used to mention how replays offered much more information into their strategies than VODs in interviews. Look at Savior's timing play in his prime for example, his replay will show all his mapview, decision making, scouting, hotkeys, exact management rhythms etc. which you could never see in VODs. I'm sure every player who studied Savior's back then must have spent hours analysing his replays, not his VODs, and CJ bosses must have had a hell of a hard time keeping them from being leaked, even if that means forcing him to play shit in events that published replays.
Having replays with so much information about a player's play simply exhausts Starcraft much faster. The copycat talentless hardcore players and most of us may obviously love the benefit of playing like a pro, but it does discourage the talented one to keep innovating.
The population of top players replays surely helped to make the skill level as high as it is today, but that's not Boxer's point. High level games doesn't guarantee good games and entertainment values. Despite the skill difference I was much more excited with progaming Starcraft in 2005 than in 2009 and I think many people who followed Starcraft when it was still a rather micro game would agree.
Some may argue that the mechanics of today games has its own beauty - but fuck that, it was nothing compared to watching Boxer, Nal_rA or YellOw pulling out something you never seen almost every week. Starcraft is a strategy game after all.
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well not only sc 2 will have reply option (like almost any rts) but will have option to see how the player moved his mouse arrow (like in fpvods) and no i dont have a good or bad opinion about this i am just telling u what the game will have
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Maybe starcraft is just doomed to be some quality Sportainment
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On December 16 2009 12:44 mrdx wrote:
Those bashing Boxer's opinion on replays need to give him some respect. Boxer was NOT sour, he was just concerned about the hard works and the rights of the truly talented progamers. Boxer's been complaining about replays back when he was still in his prime, and he wasn't the only one.
Some may not be aware that Boxer has been in the scene pre-1.08 i.e BEFORE the replay feature was created. He obviously understood the pros and cons it brought to the development of competitive gaming.
If I remember correctly Boxer and a few other progamers used to mention how replays offered much more information into their strategies than VODs in interviews. Look at Savior's timing play in his prime for example, his replay will show all his mapview, decision making, scouting, hotkeys, exact management rhythms etc. which you could never see in VODs. I'm sure every player who studied Savior's back then must have spent hours analysing his replays, not his VODs, and CJ bosses must have had a hell of a hard time keeping them from being leaked, even if that means forcing him to play shit in events that published replays.
Having replays with so much information about a player's play simply exhausts Starcraft much faster. The copycat talentless hardcore players and most of us may obviously love the benefit of playing like a pro, but it does discourage the talented one to keep innovating.
The population of top players replays surely helped to make the skill level as high as it is today, but that's not Boxer's point. High level games doesn't guarantee good games and entertainment values. Despite the skill difference I was much more excited with progaming Starcraft in 2005 than in 2009 and I think many people who followed Starcraft when it was still a rather micro game would agree.
Some may argue that the mechanics of today games has its own beauty - but fuck that, it was nothing compared to watching Boxer, Nal_rA or YellOw pulling out something you never seen almost every week. Starcraft is a strategy game after all.
even though I started following pro scene in 2008, I agree with this. Even players that were considered "macro players" (aka NaDa as an offensive + macro player and oov as defensive + macro player) still had micro intensive-parts to their strategies. They didnt just follow some build from a top player, mass sht up, harassed as the build order said so, reacted as the build order said so, and win 50% of their games with a pro gamer liscence. This is why I now only watch vods where I know the player will do something strategic, like the game is supposed to be played, and not some build order following nonsense. These players include Movie, Effort, Kal, Bisu, Stork, Flash, and of course, Jaedong!
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
On December 16 2009 10:39 red.venom wrote:
The Korean audience numbers are down(Possibly way down?). It's been talked about multiple times in the last year or two.
What makes this hard to believe is that Viewer Ratings for Esports has been an All-Time high now.
Did you know even the highest rated game during the golden age couldn't pass 1.5 percent?
Boxer's finals can set ratings up to 1.5, yet hyuk's MSL run can set ratings up to 2.5. See how that works?
And the issue on audience. The old games has been played in the COEX stadium. Let me tell you something about Coex; coex is probably the most crowded shitfest in the Samsung region of Korea. Not to mention, getting to Coex is not a big deal. It's easily reachable (unless you're from ilsan, but a better question is why are you living in ilsan), a huge variety of people are there and theres alot of things to do there. It was easy and accessible.
It's like having a stadium inside the rockefeller palace, ofcourse the audience will be damn freaking big. There are so many people to begin with.[/QUOTE]
On December 16 2009 10:39 red.venom wrote:
The worldwide pro-scene audience has some growth but really as far as I know GOM vods would only get a few thousand views after posted and the live stream I can't imagine having more than a few thousand viewers. These aren't serious revenue numbers. I'm actually surprised GOM had an english language version as long as they did, and I wonder how much Tasteless and Daniel and the tech staff were paid because that whole thing must have been operating at nearly a 100% loss.
As far as people playing on bnet and iccup... I mean people still play the game. Don't think its as many as a few years back let alone 98-03 numbers.
The problem with gom is that even though the english commentary was great, the Korean Commentary was almost unbearable
I'm sorry Garimto, your 2004 commentary was so so so much better than your 2009 commentary.
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Truth in journalism and response. where else can you find such distinct facts? Thank you
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On December 15 2009 03:57 Xxio wrote:
I think it would help a lot if players were allowed to do more ceremonies and chat in game, stuff like that to make it more exciting and let the fans see players' personalities.
arent they in korea?
beside korea, in west they are, but they are still nerds without faces
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they shall bring back E sports to samseong dong
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Looking at the IeSF videos again, it seems that Boxer may have been referring to this particular event specifically regarding decreased attendance - when you consider the big names and the whole point of the tournament and then look at how empty the audience was, there's certainly a feeling that there SHOULD have been more.
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With replays, it's just not 1 sided. There are lost and gains. Not to mention that eventually someone will figure out how to dissect their play. It just takes longer than usual without replays.
The new generation of progamers rely on replays. Bisu, Flash, and Jaedong. Without replays, those guys would probably not be where they currently are.
There are too many Starcraft matches. It is saturated. Matches use to meant a lot more when there were less.
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EPT
