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Although Boxer knows what he is talking about for the most part, I don't agree with the replay hate at all.
Strategies WILL leak out one way or another, it is not a matter of replay availability. Besides - we are talking about Starcraft as a sport - sports are not based on some crazy tactic someone pulls off once in a blue moon. It is about precision of execution, ability to read your opponent, and appropriate reactions to various situations.
Take for example soccer; its strategies have long been known, its attractiveness is NOT about some hidden strategy a team pulls out and then hopes the tapes of that game do not get passed around. I am a Boxer fan, I admire all the early tactics no one expected; but if a player has better macro, micro and decision making ability (soccer player runs faster, longer and has quicker feet), then that player is a better player, plain and simple. Player at the top skill level competing at the top level is more than enough to create exciting games. Nothing to do with replays delaying the explosion of eSports.
Someone above me mentioned that keeping the "unexpected awesome strategies" will allow more casual viewers to enjoy Starcraft (and other highly competitive games), which ultimately will allow eSports to grow. I HIGHLY disagree with that. This will only lead to eSports being a complete joke intended to entertain the viewer with "lolol i see wut u did there". Hardcore fans might follow soccer teams in England very closely and understand the beautiful details the game offers, but the casual fandom is still growing, just look at soccer World Cups; loads of fans who don't have half an idea of what's going on, and at the same time not expecting any insane new strategy.
And this is where Boxer hit the nail on the head. If a fan is intended to be strapped into his/her seat watching the game in complete silence and then leave; there is no reason to actually COME to the games. Might as well stay at home and watch the stream. People instead want to paint their faces in team colours, get a big group together, do 'the wave', and damage their vocal chords while watching a game. People want to meet their favourite players, SEE them celebrate.
The atmosphere is what will drive eSports out of that uterus, NOT banning replays in the hopes of retaining elements of surprise to prolong the attention of global viewers.
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Ouch, Boxer telling it like what it is. Funny that he did not mention the Free Agency fiasco.
I agree with all of his points, especially about keeping in touch with the fans. The problem at this point is that professional Starcraft has truly reached the point of stagnation.
-Starcraft has no more market space left to expand inside Korea. Not without some sort of drastic change.
-Much of the success of a team lies in owning an iconic player and therefore no new teams will be created due to the expense and difficulties involved in finding one. Thus, no more corporations will be involved in eSports. What are they supposed to do? Buy a bunch of B-teamers and cross their fingers? The current Free Agency system is too expensive.
- No more new Leagues either. The players are having trouble with just keeping up with 3 leagues.
- The salary level of progamers won't go any higher. Their salaries come from the sponsors, not from tickets or tournament earnings. The sponsors are using teams as walking advertisement. They don't directly profit from owning a team. So Sponsors have no reason to invest more at this point.
- The lack of influx of new talents. Professional gaming is still not much of a career. There is still a big barrier. Kids with talents and their parents are rather unlikely to risk themselves for eSport.
The one and only hope left is Starcraft 2. Blizzard seems to be interested in directly involved in the promotion and investment of eSports this time around, if its interference with GOM was any indication. While foreign scene professional eSports scene has not grown, its fanbase did. Hopefully, Starcraft 2 can start things anew.
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The root of the problem though is the social stigma still attached to gaming in general. It won't be a national sport in any country regardless of much you charge at the door or how many seats there are. Professional gaming will get bigger with time for sure, but it requires games that somewhat of a "serious" feel to them. Fighting alien forces in space or something similar just seems childish to a lot of people who haven't grown up with these games.
Maybe in a decade or so when the current gamer generation has the power in society, things will happen for real. There are a couple of issues with making e-sports more professional and popular. First, nicknames have to go because don't really bring anything to the table and quite frankly often times are childish. You can still call july "the god of war" but you shouldn't call someone Darkelf when talking about them.
Second, the games need to be more sofisticated and timeless in their design, with a huge room for improvement (like SC). And third, the view on gaming needs to change in an even bigger way by making it namely, more professional and serious.
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This interview isn't depressing at all, and it's really important to realize what that is the case. Boxer is making a number of very salient points concerning what Esports must do to evolve, as ~10 years of SC being a Korean institution has not at all translated to global support despite the proliferation of gaming everywhere.
Boxer's point is that Esports can only be grown through a conscious and concerted effort, and he is providing some suggestions as to how that might occur. They may or may not be correct, but his message here is one of hope, and reaching out in order to make Esports as big and globally entertaining as it could be.
I really feel that Boxer or someone else needs to establish themselves as a sort of "Esports commissioner/ambassador" position - like he said, involvement from the government and setting up just such a position/funding could result in an enormous boost in the outreach of Esports as a fully-fledged entertainment medium. Pushing for the level of fan/venue involvement that other sports benefit from, building a global brand and playerbase, and bringing more games into the fold are both desirable end results as well as important steps towards reaching the goal of "esports as a sport".
It's important to realize that the problem is NOT the games themselves - it's the presentation of gaming as an entertainment venue, which even within pro SC has not been done properly.
Boxer does not mourn the death of Esports - he's interested in seeing it finally gain life.
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China3334 Posts
"Korea has better driver experience, but China has better engine. You can't ignore China."
This is why I still love Boxer after 9 years. This man is really really smart not only at playing games. I thought about the same thing during this year WCG. China is a huge market for almost EVERYTHING including e-sports. It's yet to develop.
But some of our 09 WCG lineup are from Boxer's era. There isn't much new blood because as Boxer mentioned 1.) progaming is a hard path 2.) parents (generally the mainstream of society) are against gaming. Young people love video games all over the world. But progaming is a different/tougher story. No one/country actually figures it out. I mean, Korean progaming is successful but even Boxer is wondering how long it will be. We all have our own issues. This is not something we can have answers overnight.
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It'd be cool if we can relay some of what we've discussed to people who matter in the professional scene in Korea. I know they can't do much if other countries aren't willing to follow suite -- honestly, North America just isn't at that level yet -- but if they could at least help spread the word and encourage other countries to fund in some way, that would change tons. The more money going in to it in other countries, the easier for them to expand, the more money they get. It just has to be relayed in such a way that it means money.
It'd be cool if someone could bring this kind of support to, hey, even Boxer's attention. He seems like he cares -- how much, we dont' yet know. If we're lucky, though, he or someone he's connected with will be inspired to help.
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English casting!
I mean it's pretty funny when they start yelling and stuff but I can't help but think that I might still get a bit more immersed in the game if I could actually understand the casters.
Being a very casual viewer of starcraft I know the game alright but having someone more experienced filling ones head with all the nuances one might have missed makes it a whole lot more exciting.
Found it a lot more inticing to tune in to watch the gomtv games over having to turn to irc to even know what the hell just happened that made the commentators suddenly go mental when I watch something today 
The gomtv casts at least gave people that don't play the game on any level the chance to become interested, they made me for sure. Now it's korean streams where I sometimes have no clue who's playing who until midway in the game, or what I think is midgame when someone strolls into the others base and it's gg, because one guy obviously mistimed something or whatever (to someone who knows what's going on).
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the replay thing is bogus. Nal_ra had just as much accessibility to replays as anyone. Its not like hed be magically as good at bw as he was without replays living in a different country like say Bulgaria. He had access to facilities that other people could never dream of having purely by living in korea and without replays that disparity would be even larger.
So what would he do not broadcast games? Its not as if magically Nal_Ra was figured out from leaked replays or anything. His games were on TV.
Honestly if you want to know what is killing BW its having proteams where everyone practices 14 hrs a day. Theres not much room for innovation in an environment like that and it levels the playing field because the game comes down to purely mechanics because there is stuff that just doesnt work well when the person can control their units competently while multitasking. Having tons of proteams and tons of random ass people playing as much as they do makes everything pretty mechanical. If there were no proteams maybe people could come up with their own ideas and things would last longer.
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its tough to expand a market where its completely dominated in one area.
counter-strike was so successful internationally with CPL, ESWC, WCG because there was always competitive teams from various countries. not only were countries represented well but they each had their share of counter-strike glory.
every WCG is 1st/2nd/3rd place korean for starcraft
so i guess to expand upon sadists point, which i thought was good, not only is playing 14hours a day killing creativity but its killing international competition.
seems like where CS was strong SC is weak (international competition) and where SC is strong CS is weak (pro teams being able to sustain salaries) and CS is also going by the wayside just like some of the most exciting tournaments (CPL, ESWC)
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I don't necessarily think it's the 14-hour professional practice that is the problem. It's that the "industry" just isn't up to par in other countries. We don't have as many minds playing the game, and they aren't training nearly as much. If eSports magically did proliferate in other countries to a professional level, we'd have all-day training as well.
Gaming as a hobby still isn't accepted enough, at least in North America, and that's the problem. We can't "go pro" until society let's us, or until we push it on them. I'm not saying we're far off, but we just aren't there yet. We need a big push, hence my earlier suggestions.
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On December 15 2009 13:42 Cedstick wrote:
I don't necessarily think it's the 14-hour professional practice that is the problem. It's that the "industry" just isn't up to par in other countries. We don't have as many minds playing the game, and they aren't training nearly as much. If eSports magically did proliferate in other countries to a professional level, we'd have all-day training as well.
Gaming as a hobby still isn't accepted enough, at least in North America, and that's the problem. We can't "go pro" until society let's us, or until we push it on them. I'm not saying we're far off, but we just aren't there yet. We need a big push, hence my earlier suggestions.
I disagree. People playing professional sports dont practice nearly that much. Its probably to a detrement of the players quite honestly but it seems like regimented practice for long hours is part of asian culture. You could argue thats what makes them successful(say gymnastics/womens golf/whatever) and that may be because mistakes in these sports/games are so costly but who knows. Personally while the Talent pool isnt there in Asian Golf yet the reason why their tactics of practicing for extreme hours in that sport havent worked yet is because it comes down much more to mental toughness than anything and you cant teach that through 14 hrs a day of practice.
I feel like their practice schedule is insane and if its 7 days a week thats ridiculous. Not many people would want to give up having even a semblance of a life for that ;\. You hear people like Nada talk about bw being their job and how its not fun essentially anymore. Can you imagine playing 10 hrs a day for 8 years? What the fuck.
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I am curious. How are the Koreans reacting to this interview? Any Korean here care to take a look and give us a general idea? Pretty please?
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On December 15 2009 13:47 Sadist wrote:
I see where you're coming from, but keep in mind that professional sports are an entirely different practice. They practice as hard as their bodies can take it in most cases, which is still quite a lot. I've known minor-league college players that have an intense demand from their sport that really cuts in to their study time. Compare "professional" gamers from North America and Europe to that and you will see that people really will give all they can when so much is on the line and their dedication is so strong -- 8 hours of practice is average for many "professional" Counter-Strike teams, and that's all five of them playing together. One man can play as long as he likes as long as he has ICCup or a practice partner.
It's ignorant to point towards the difference in cultural expectations, too, I think, as we still have stron athletic and other focuses in North America, despite the fierce competition from China in competitions like the Olympics. It really does come down to the "foreign" scene in my eyes.
Duke -- I was wondering that as well, as it's a very important factor.
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NeverGG
United Kingdom5399 Posts
Having been to so many events myself and knowing both foreign and Korean fans I cannot agree more with this quote;
'Fans concentrate when games are exciting, but when game are boring they lose focus. eSports is emotional, so more investment in fan service is needed to grab audience's attention continuously.'
Amen to this Emperor. You just have to look at the success of Bunkie and T1's reformed image which has the most fan service of any team (even KT doesn't come close.) to see how effective it is.
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On December 15 2009 14:10 NeverGG wrote:
Having been to so many events myself and knowing both foreign and Korean fans I cannot agree more with this quote;
'Fans concentrate when games are exciting, but when game are boring they lose focus. eSports is emotional, so more investment in fan service is needed to grab audience's attention continuously.'
Amen to this Emperor. You just have to look at the success of Bunkie and T1's reformed image which has the most fan service of any team (even KT doesn't come close.) to see how effective it is.
I'd think commentation, if done well, should fill that lapse in excitement. It definitely keeps me interested when guys like Husky, who don't take a break, commentate, as they're keeping me constantly engaged. I think if it can succeed with online Youtube commentaries (which we can replay if we decide to zone-out) it would definitely work with live casting. If you must, you could even flip the video over to a recent performance or, say, public show of one of the professionals being commentated to help keep viewers engaged. It is a great point, though.
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SC is a RTS game people. Constant games with the same time of strategy over and over again gets boring.
Why is Boxer so popular? Why is Nada popular? Why is Reach popular? Why are all the retired or veterans of SC never forgotten? They did something stupid but won the game. They captivated the audience with their plays.
I like Jaedong. I like fantasy and all the other pro gamers today. Its just that each time they face each other, theres nothing new. New is what sells people.
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United States3824 Posts
For the first time I have to be pissed off at Boxer.
Macro robots? Fuck that dude. Go practice more Lim Yo Hwan
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Kespa should patch the game through the map editor lol.
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On December 15 2009 14:30 Cedstick wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2009 14:10 NeverGG wrote:
Having been to so many events myself and knowing both foreign and Korean fans I cannot agree more with this quote;
'Fans concentrate when games are exciting, but when game are boring they lose focus. eSports is emotional, so more investment in fan service is needed to grab audience's attention continuously.'
Amen to this Emperor. You just have to look at the success of Bunkie and T1's reformed image which has the most fan service of any team (even KT doesn't come close.) to see how effective it is. I'd think commentation, if done well, should fill that lapse in excitement. It definitely keeps me interested when guys like Husky, who don't take a break, commentate, as they're keeping me constantly engaged. I think if it can succeed with online Youtube commentaries (which we can replay if we decide to zone-out) it would definitely work with live casting. If you must, you could even flip the video over to a recent performance or, say, public show of one of the professionals being commentated to help keep viewers engaged. It is a great point, though.
She's talking about @ the games. During football games we have mini games on the jumbotron and cheerleaders to entertain us during intermissions or time outs. T1 helps the crowd out with their mascots. I see empty seats. Maybe fans leave to get something to eat. Why not have food vendors walking the isles.
Just a thought.
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On December 15 2009 09:37 Hier wrote:
Strategies WILL leak out one way or another, it is not a matter of replay availability.
I'm gonna take your word over Boxer's.
+ Show Spoiler +
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EPT
