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I hated replays from the day they came.
Suddenly player you beat 8/10 times got better cause they now got a tool to not use their own brain, instead using some build order some SC/BW genius has written down.
I really had a friend that went from... "yeah, he tries" to "uh, he gives me a ton of trouble" (except when i did... stupid shit, i still could grab tons of wins from him that way)... How he did this? Downloading replays, writing down the build order, memorising the building placement (he actually even had some screenshots printed out) and even some "if your opponents do this, do this"... pretty strictly following it. SC/BW lost so much there.
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Yeah, replays sucks, really hope sc2 could disable replay functions
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On December 15 2009 03:56 Pathos wrote:
Boxer is right. Starcraft doesn't have to strategic depth (variation in decision-making) to support replays.
Then what game does?
I don't buy the replay thing, honestly. Boxer speaks as if replays of Proleague and Starleague games are openly available. That's most definitely not the case, and you wonder what he would say about a game like WC3 where every game is open for download to anyone. I mean, what's the big deal here? WCG hasn't been a real competition for Korean players for years now - players like Jaedong and Stork are so strong mechanically that they don't need to give away any of their strategies to win.
The bit about the fans needing to have some incentive to come to games is definitely true, though. SC is not nearly as entertaining without the crowd and commentator reactions. I don't think the game is declining in popularity (especially not in the foreign scene), but the fan-base in Korea does seem to have some issues with supporting teams and players in person. I know there are issues with both locations, and numbers of games.
On December 15 2009 05:33 SonuvBob wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2009 05:27 Eury wrote:On December 15 2009 05:12 SonuvBob wrote:I love Boxer and all, but this isn't very convincing. It's popular in Korea and there are tournaments, but oversea there isn't much attention. I felt the limit as I won WCG twice. 7 and 8 years ago? Surely nothing's changed in 7 years! We hear this "SC is dying" crap every few months. The only thing that can kill SC is a better RTS. Hate to be the first one to tell you, but Starcraft outside of Korea hasn't exactly grown in the last 7-8 years. Sure, things have changed; for the worse. Less players, wayyyyyyyy more fans.
Definitely. There are also a lot more good players than ever. I don't understand it when people say SC has declined away from Korea, because is losing a lot of the more uncompetitive players really a decline for the scene?
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I would like to hear what Boxer thinks of the balance of the fan's gender. In Korea, it's mostly comprised of girls, but it's mostly guys in the international scene.
In the SC early days, isn't the players sold as sex symbols to gather this mass fan base of girls? With the exception of Bisu and Hwasin, I don't hear players called sexy. Rather, they're "cute" and often times socially awkward (probably sending more time brushing up on mechanics than social skills).
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In my opinion, the biggest threat to the watchability of pro StarCraft are the hordes of worse-than-A-class progamers who generally just copy the top players, poorly. When the top players repeatedly get either mirror matches or poor opponents in proleague, it's a waste.
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Progamers to US. i think thatll help esports grow
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I think that:
1- It's good that e-sport is still "small" and remains like that. Bigger it will be, more standardized and rationnal/safe will be the players. Money has killed many many sports. Look at fencing. It was so exciting fourty years ago, and now it sucks hard and deep.
2- Boxer is sour. I love this guy, but it sounds like "I'm not good anymore, so I find a reason: it's because everything sucks". Seing Flash or Stork is as entertaining than seing Boxer or Nada six years ago. The fact that standart play has become more and more refined makes the game more subtle. Ok. Before you had crazy stuff happening all the time. But now, you can see 15 seconds timing difference having a huge impact, and for hardcore fans, that's damn exciting too.
I don't know...
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I don't understand the complaints of replays. Is he talking about replays just shared among progamers? It's not like you need replays to copy strategies these days and the game would have been just optimized and build order orientated anyway, its just inevitable. Also i have to agree that Starcraft outside of Korea is slowly gaining popularity rather than the opposite, probably thanks to technology in some part where vods of games are more easily obtainable.
Its not like innovative builds are suddenly extinct anyway, we've seen more nukes and queens recently and new interesting play on maps like Outsider all the time. No, you can't just make up random crazy build orders as you go along anymore but it doesn't mean theres no room for clever play at all. Winning a game in a pure better of raw skill is still fun to watch, insane games like Flash Vs Jaedong on Rush Hour 3 of just multitask ability is just as great, if not better, than some player getting surprised by something weird and losing to it.
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its pretty obvious that e-sports in korea are going backwards in development, especially how short sighted kespa or the corporate twats are running things...
Gom tourneys was a very big success and a big step in spreading e-sports to the whole world, look at what they did to that potential for the sake of short term selfish gains : /
hopefully SC2 could bring a change about how things r going...
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Hm true, GOM really tried to make starcraft popular in other countries, interesting how he did not even mention that,
but the guy who owns kespa owns SKT too, right?
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On December 15 2009 05:59 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Before you had crazy stuff happening all the time. But now, you can see 15 seconds timing difference having a huge impact, and for hardcore fans, that's damn exciting too.
This is the point. Catering to the hardcore fans will not grow pro gaming. It is catering to the casual fan and the non-fan while maintaining intrest of the hardcore fan that will grow pro gaming. Blue Oceans, boys.
Maybe I should design a business plan for E-Sports... That would be fun.
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Ok, sorry for double post, but I thought of some ideas off the top of my head.
1 - Remove the race restrictions in ProLeague. Less emphasis on fairness and more emphasis on drama. Team Branding will become synonomous with race mixtures - more personality. What if one team's starting lineup was all Zerg? All Terran? We already have this to a lesser degree with some teams, like famous SKT1 Terrans. Capitalize on it.
2 - Set up an official international web site in partnership with Blizzard that will bring the gap between the game players / enthusiasts / customizers and the casual fans. Viewing, news, public forums for both ends of the spectrum? Maybe this is what the browser form of Battle.net should be?
3 - Keep entrance free or minimal, but add concessions and amenities to enhance the experience.
4 - Permanent, durable seating for higher comfort and perceived value.
5 - Wider variety of matches besides 1v1 standard. Include UMS games, fun twists, 2v2s, FFAs, etc. More team maps. What if they had 4v4s - entire teams vs each other?
6 - Let players type for pete's sake. This could be linked to a dialogue text easily visible by viewers. Humor is something broadcast SC needs more of.
7 - Let Starcraft 2 replace SC1 with better graphics and friendlier viewing features.
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I don't agree with Boxer when it comes to replays. It forces players to more quickly adapt and come up with new strategies. Some of the most exciting times in StarCraft were when Nada came in with a macro/attacking style. And then OOv came in with with a macro/defensive style. And then Savior invented a style of moving his opponent into more opportune positions. And then Bisu started developing ways to break that.
The viewers of any competitive event want to see the game continually change and evolve, and replays have greatly facilitated that.
I think this relates to a bigger problem which is that Koreans have a poor meta-game. Yes, players learn eachother's strategies quicker, but the adaptation is poor. For instance, it seems that now every player is going for some form of early expansion. Why aren't more Zergs 9pooling or more Protosses Zealot rushing or more Terrans going Three factory Vulture?
That's what kills variety in the game to me, not that replays allow strategies to evolve more quickly.
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I don't know what to say, but I feel as if I must post ):
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On December 15 2009 05:40 emucxg wrote:
Yeah, replays sucks, really hope sc2 could disable replay functions
But you understand that everyone will check the replay button anyway? Think of two worlds with identical people in both of them - in one world noone saves replays there, in the other everyone saves and everyone shares replays with each other. Now what happens when these two worlds meet? The second would roflstomp the first, because skill level would be significantly higher there.
Let's say these two worlds are pro teams - everyone in the house will save replays so pro team's player's level could rise but they won't share it with anyone outside their house. Wait, isn't it almost exactly like this nowadays?
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Honestly, I don't get the talk about stagnation. Sure, there are great players that seem to be invincible. But they can be in a slump. . . When this happens and a less experienced player gets his break, it creates a excitement and a circle of uncertainty. Today, Samsung Khan faced off against SKT1 and MBC met KT. Not to give anything away, but the crowd was very enthusiastic, clapping when a nice move was made and the commentators were amazing as usual. Why aren't there any energetic english commentators doing live-commentating?. . . Klazart would be great at this. Together with Day9 and Husky they could make an amazing show. With time, it would grow. . . and the sponsors would come along as well.
The talk about replays is overrated I think. Everybody talked about the 3-hatch spire into five hatch hydra as the end all build in ZvP. A few weeks later, there are all kinds of ways protoss players are dealing with it and ZvP is looking uncertain again, with the map makers playing a part in it as well. To summarize. . . the quality is still there and the game won't be going anywhere even after SC2.
The problem as I see it is that there are too many games being played. . . Playing less games would let the players prepare and certainly boost the quality of the games even more. Make it so that SPL games are played 1-2 days a week, and change the format so that all the teams can face off during two days instead of around 5-6 like today. . . If it were 1-2 days of SPL a week, then you could have a Starcraft event, people could set off time to go watch some Starcraft live, to support their team and happily pay a small fee. . . as thanks for such amazing games.
The Ro8 of the OSL is a great example of keeping the number of games down while the quality is high. High level players playing once a week. They're not playing some weird group stage where everyone has to play the other guys in a Bo5 everyday. . . Keep it simple. Maybe three OSLs and MSLs a year is a bit much. Cut it back to one every two years and let the MSL and WCG be an annual individual league . . . And every 4 years we could have a Starcraft world cup, independent from the WCG. So that 50 years from now, we can look back on Boxer and Yellow the way we look back on Pele and Maradona.
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United Kingdom12043 Posts
The trouble is. eSports isn't pushed in any country other than Korea. I can't think of anywhere in Europe where eSports are even considered to be popular.
Let's face it. Starcraft is a very. Very old game. It won't get many new players due to the fact newer games go for games with fancier graphics. So many people I know I've tried to get into the game have all said "I'm not watching or playing this look how awful it looks".
Most modern day gamers don't enjoy watching older games (more fool them) and it ends up with the world not accepting eSports in general. I for one would love to have a TV channel dedicated to eSports. I can't think of anything better than to sit and watch Starcraft on a big screen TV. That just won't happen because the governments are too narrow minded to let it happen.
eSports needs to be accepted world wide as a proper sport rather than segregated to small communities around the world and Korea.
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On December 15 2009 06:07 0neder wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2009 05:59 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Before you had crazy stuff happening all the time. But now, you can see 15 seconds timing difference having a huge impact, and for hardcore fans, that's damn exciting too.
This is the point. Catering to the hardcore fans will not grow pro gaming. It is catering to the casual fan and the non-fan while maintaining intrest of the hardcore fan that will grow pro gaming. Blue Oceans, boys. Maybe I should design a business plan for E-Sports... That would be fun.
NFL begs to differ.
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On December 15 2009 06:32 Ota Solgryn wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2009 06:07 0neder wrote:On December 15 2009 05:59 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Before you had crazy stuff happening all the time. But now, you can see 15 seconds timing difference having a huge impact, and for hardcore fans, that's damn exciting too.
This is the point. Catering to the hardcore fans will not grow pro gaming. It is catering to the casual fan and the non-fan while maintaining intrest of the hardcore fan that will grow pro gaming. Blue Oceans, boys. Maybe I should design a business plan for E-Sports... That would be fun. NFL begs to differ.
Doesn't the Super Bowl prove my point? How many people watch it who don't care about football? It makes a bazillion dollars.
The Wii and every success story cited in Blue Ocean Strategy beg to differ. The hardcore fan who plays the game is less likely to leave because of small things. The casual whose marginal willingness to watch or attend is the one who will grow the industry. We at TL still watch even though there are macrobots, stupid kespa rulings and free agency policies, etc. It's the casual fan that has left because goofy, ballsey strategies aren't used by conservative players who know nothing of showmanship.
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On December 15 2009 05:40 emucxg wrote:
Yeah, replays sucks, really hope sc2 could disable replay functions Agreed. The most important thing for a strategy game is to avoid the monotony of complete standardization of the metagame. Starcraft is way less exciting than it use to be, let alone watching sc- which I don't even do, excluding finals/semi's.
Edit: Maybe have replays for UMS and unimportant games, no replays for ladders and the like.
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EPT
