EPTOn December 12 2009 23:22 Xxio wrote:
uhhh
Hyuk isn't bad...or do you think JD sucks too?
we are dealing with hyuk's TvZ.uhhh
Hyuk isn't bad...or do you think JD sucks too?
and great read, you deserve that star next to your name
Dear Fantasy, - Page 4
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hyst.eric.al
United States2332 Posts
and great read, you deserve that star next to your name | ||
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johnnyspazz
Taiwan1470 Posts
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fanatacist
10319 Posts
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number1gog
United States1081 Posts
On December 12 2009 21:28 Pholon wrote:I'm sure your builds did very well during training but that's because you practise against Hyuk who is fucking bad. I lol'd profusely at this. Brilliant writeup dude. | ||
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
(B) Everyone slumps. Flash also had a period where he tried to cut corners against Zergs all the time, and paid the price. Now his TvZ is the best ever, hands down. Maybe Fantasy is also going through a transitional period. (C) Very nice write-up! I didn't realize that Fantasy's recent TvZ record was quite so bleak. He're my take on it: Fantasy has really mean late-game macro in TvZ, with his crazy tank lines and huge vessel clouds and stuff. As long as he can get an economical edge, he can ride it to victory and look amazing while doing it (see Fantasy vs Hoejja). The problem is that he lacks the insane bio control of Flash, and so he's not guaranteed a midgame advantage against pretty much every Zerg, like Flash is. (Mutas and lurkers seem to just not affect Flash, which makes Lair tech play pretty fucking difficult against him.) Flash has discovered that just by playing the same safe build, he can secure an advantage with his perfect control 100% of the time (often just by killing Z's 3rd) and steamroll his way to victory. It doesn't work that way for Fantasy. For his late-game TvZ death machine to kick in, he needs to somehow get an early game advantage, whether it's by cutting defense, vulture raids, OL snipes, wraiths, etc. He's pretty good at doing that stuff and exploiting Zergs' early game weaknesses, but they're all catching on now and Fantasy just needs to adapt, which I have no doubt he will eventually do. Fantasy may always be a glass cannon, but as long as he stays ahead of the curve and prepares well, he'll remain a threatening player, mainly in individual leagues. He's also >50% in TvT and can play excellent standard TvP, which means he's quite useful in proleague, although I strongly doubt that he'll ever be a Flash/Jaedong/Bisu-level proleague workhorse. Edit: Fantasy deserved the Terran of the Year award a little more than Flash did IMO, but he's a lot less popular.  (Flash fan here.) | ||
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fanatacist
10319 Posts
On December 13 2009 05:44 Djabanete wrote: (A) The Fantasy bashing has gone way too far. How can anyone think he doesn't bring anything of his own to SC? How can anyone not realize that he works insanely hard to develop his potential? How can anyone think that his having the best coaches makes him a "mindless copycat"? He's not my favorite player by any means but for the love of god stop fucking slandering him, he doesn't deserve it. Have some common sense. (B) Everyone slumps. Flash also had a period where he tried to cut corners against Zergs all the time, and paid the price. Now his TvZ is the best ever, hands down. Maybe Fantasy is also going through a transitional period. (C) Very nice write-up! I didn't realize that Fantasy's recent TvZ record was quite so bleak. He're my take on it: Fantasy has really mean late-game macro in TvZ, with his crazy tank lines and huge vessel clouds and stuff. As long as he can get an economical edge, he can ride it to victory and look amazing while doing it (see Fantasy vs Hoejja). The problem is that he lacks the insane bio control of Flash, and so he's not guaranteed a midgame advantage against pretty much every Zerg, like Flash is. (Mutas and lurkers seem to just not affect Flash, which makes Lair tech play pretty fucking difficult against him.) Flash has discovered that just by playing the same safe build, he can secure an advantage with his perfect control 100% of the time (often just by killing Z's 3rd) and steamroll his way to victory. It doesn't work that way for Fantasy. For his late-game TvZ death machine to kick in, he needs to somehow get an early game advantage, whether it's by cutting defense, vulture raids, OL snipes, wraiths, etc. He's pretty good at doing that stuff and exploiting Zergs' early game weaknesses, but they're all catching on now and Fantasy just needs to adapt, which I have no doubt he will eventually do. Fantasy may always be a glass cannon, but as long as he stays ahead of the curve and prepares well, he'll remain a threatening player, mainly in individual leagues. He's also >50% in TvT and can play excellent standard TvP, which means he's quite useful in proleague, although I strongly doubt that he'll ever be a Flash/Jaedong/Bisu-level proleague workhorse. Edit: Fantasy deserved the Terran of the Year award a little more than Flash did IMO, but he's a lot less popular. (Flash fan here.) Great post. | ||
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UFO
582 Posts
I don`t know why you hate Fantasy so much and almost all of what you wrote was totally subjective and false. | ||
Ver
United States2186 Posts
His skill level is artificially inflated because he has oov behind him preparing builds and series strategies. While Fantasy does understand the strategies very well (most of the time haha), he doesn't possess the corresponding game sense/decision making that oov had. Take that Holy World 4 pool game: Fantasy defended it, Jaedong lost the game right then. From that kind of advantage Jaedong had no chance of victory and you can be sure that oov or Flash or whoever would absolutely have won the game from that position. But Fantasy just doesn't have the level of decision making of a starleague winner. When things don't go to plan he kinda fizzles out most of the time. Flash noted in some interview awhile back that he is best at reacting in game to various problems while Fantasy comes in very strong and prepared but can't react as well. Btw Fantasy absolutely should not go 1 rax FE: he's terrible at it and always has been. Canata is quite frankly better at TvZ than Fantasy now that he is following oov's strategies as well because Canata has much better bionic control and Fantasy doesn't really have an edge on decision making in normal bio builds. He definitely needs to stick with Valkonic variations until oov creates another build (don't even mention Boxer, his influence is minuscule compared to oov's and yes it is discernible who puts in what). Valkonic is most definitely not figured out (see Canata vs Effort) and there are many variations that they haven't used to their fullest potential (namely the 1 rax FE into speed vult/valkyrie). It's just he's doing really dumb things when he does Valkonic like skipping Valkyries vs 2 hatch muta (lol?) for whatever reason and his 1 Rax FE is just as bad as when he played GGPlay a year and some months ago. Quite frankly it's amazing Fantasy managed to last this long without any kind of real slump. Losing 2 game 5's in the finals and losing the semis to Jaedong in such a fashion would be killer on one's mental state. Fantasy definitely has the fighting spirit and he will bounce back from his problems one way or another I bet. And so long as his play is consistent, he will skyrocket to the very top once oov creates another build or brings some back from the past like he did vs Hoejja (that's an oov build from December 2004). You can't expect Fantasy to be Flash, someone perfect in decision making and game sense, because he's not. Fantasy is Fantasy, with his own very unique strengths and weaknesses. So he probably is going to keep dropping random games for bad reasons but he also is going to soar once again for the same reasons as before. | ||
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fanatacist
10319 Posts
On December 13 2009 05:59 UFO wrote: This ridicilous , Fantasy is such an amazing player, how the hell can you give him such desrciption ; o Just cuz he was losing , you totally change perspective and see everything through his current shape. Ye fucking everything he has done and invented was out of dumb fucking luck, mech included. I don`t know why you hate Fantasy so much and almost all of what you wrote was totally subjective and false. The rage is strong with this one. Bro, he never slandered Fantasy like he was some shitty noob. His post was the most PC safe post imaginable, and relied heavily on actual facts - the games. The games are not subjective. Chill out. EDIT: And Ver is still the best poster on StarCraft-related information, hands down. | ||
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Hinanawi
United States2250 Posts
I can't find the quote right now, but about a month ago Flash was asked what was different about the way he plays and the way Fantasy plays. He said that Fantasy goes into a game with a huge grocery list of plans. I'll do this, and if my opponent does this, I'll do that...but if my opponent does this, then I'll do that...etc. etc. he might bring plans for 20 different situations. But what happens when something happens that isn't covered by those 20 situations? He completely falls apart and can't adapt to the situation. (by contrast, Flash says he goes into a game with one general overall strategy, and then just wings it and adjusts to what his opponent does mid-game). Another thing, Fantasy's bio control isn't terrible. It's not amazing, but it's not bad. It's his decision-making and game sense with bio that needs work, he underestimates how fragile his MnM are against Zerg a lot recently, and he's not good at 'sensing' where the Zerg cluster of units is in the early-game. Even though I dislike Fantasy, I hope he does come back. Flash has TvT and TvZ covered, so I think it would be nice if Fantasy could figure out a way to make TvP an easier matchup for Terrans, against top Protoss players. "How to avoid getting raped by four arbiters and psi storm while my opponent expands everywhere" would be a good starting thesis. | ||
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BookTwo
1985 Posts
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GW.Methos
United States249 Posts
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tree.hugger
Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
On December 13 2009 05:25 fanatacist wrote: Lol so true. Korean netizens gogo translate and post Yeah, this needs to get posted in Korean. So right. But Fantasy just doesn't have the level of decision making of a starleague winner. When things don't go to plan he kinda fizzles out most of the time. Flash noted in some interview awhile back that he is best at reacting in game to various problems while Fantasy comes in very strong and prepared but can't react as well. I'd take issue just with a little point of this one point right here. I've always felt that one of fantasy's strengths is his defense against cheese. The game against  Movie, the game against  Jaedong, (obviously he didn't finish) were really excellent defenses of the unexpected. I'm more inclined to believe that we're just seeing  fantasy slumping, sort of like Flash did this summer. | ||
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StorkHwaiting
United States3465 Posts
On December 13 2009 06:03 fanatacist wrote: The rage is strong with this one. Bro, he never slandered Fantasy like he was some shitty noob. His post was the most PC safe post imaginable, and relied heavily on actual facts - the games. The games are not subjective. Chill out. EDIT: And Ver is still the best poster on StarCraft-related information, hands down. This guy seems to rage and curse over every post he disagrees with :-\ On the actual OP, brilliant write. As a Fantasy anti-fan it makes my heart glow to see so many of his epic fails posted in one place. Personally, I think fantasy is the puppet of SKT Terran masterminds. I don't think he'd be half the player he is now without SKT's coaching staff. He's got good mechanics and decent micro, but his gamesense, and like Pholon said, overall strategizing is just blargh. I'm not a big fan of Terran in general, but I like Flash way more than him. | ||
Pholon
Netherlands6142 Posts
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MuffinDude
United States3837 Posts
On December 12 2009 23:22 Xxio wrote: uhhh Hyuk isn't bad...or do you think JD sucks too? just because hyuk beat jaedong doesn't mean hes good. On December 13 2009 05:44 Djabanete wrote: Edit: Fantasy deserved the Terran of the Year award a little more than Flash did IMO, but he's a lot less popular. (Flash fan here.) No. Just no. | ||
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KristianJS
2107 Posts
Whether you like him or not, I think you gotta admit he kinda deserves a gold already. In the meantime I guess he'll have to just try to remember the proleague finals above anything else =/ | ||
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tryTRY
United States24 Posts
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Pholon
Netherlands6142 Posts
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
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