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Netherlands6142 Posts
Let me at once make it clear this isn't fanmail. I've never been much of a fan of you. It's hard to point out exactly why this is - I've just never felt any kind of fondness towards you. Not that I don't respect your play. I do, occasionally, allow myself to be amazed by your more ingenious works. Yet it is not out of admiration that I felt compelled to write you.
It's hard to pinpoint when exactly you entered my StarCraft world. The Incruit OSL would be a good place to start I guess. Your Mech build vs GGPlay was, I imagine, quirky at the time, but later became known as the "Fantasy Build". And not only did you get a build named after yourself, it issued in a period of Mech-based play in TvZ. Pretty impressive feats, I will admit, and I haven't even mentioned your two Silvers yet.
As, like I mentioned, I'm not a fan, I never really bothered to "define" you. It was FakeSteve who did this for me, saying: "Fantasy is better because he's smarter". Like any Steve-fearing StarCraft fan I accepted his word as the law (as becomes of a good TL-netizen) and, although more than once I interpreted your work as Boxer rubbing off on you, this is how I mentally stored you: A smart StarCraft player.
It is therefore that I write this. Your recent performances in TvZ have been puzzling me. At first, I wrote it off as a certain stubbornness. We know you're a player with a plan and having to divert from this mustn't be easy. Although StarCraft greatly involves adaptation, I guess we'll grant you this one flaw. However, in more recent games you were being downright dumb. But I'm getting ahead of myself...
Let me take you back to the Bacchus OSL Semis versus Jaedong. Jaedong is a pretty good player you know. He also knows (as everyone does) that you love the Mech. Jaedong decides that, with you relying on so little units to defend, early agression is the counter of choice. He shows you so on Holy World with a 4 Pool that you somehow end up not defending. This brings me to the first game I want to point out: the next game in that series on Return of the King.
Jaedong, similar to the previous game, opens with an agressive 9 Pool, whereas you decide to wall in like this:
The wall was most probably one part of a grander design that no doubt would have worked and stomped Jaedong in 3/4ths of all cases. In your case, however, you spawned top right, in which case your Marines spawn on the outside of your wall, only to be torn apart by Zerglings.
A bit of position-related stubborness? It probably would have been fine versus 12 Hatch, but still, taking a chance like this versus a Zerg you know can be agressive? Ah well...
Flash forward to your game vs type-b on Heartbreak Ridge.
This game is a great example of how your builds start cutting corners. Relying on 2 Fact Vults and the backdoor entrance to do damage is a pretty big risk to take. Type-b smells it coming from miles ahead and some simple sim-city-ing nullifies the Vulture damage and Mutas quickly rort out the Vultures. All goes downhill from here. You try to get an expansion up but superior Muta numbers take down your Golis, deny your expansion and you take 5 more minutes trying to find that second g button.
Your game against Hoejja was glorious. We all know how well you played and I mean it when I say I couldn't have done a better job myself.
After this though your games have been bad and worse.
It's not completely fair to start with this game. StarCraft is a game that can hinge on tiny moments. One mistake can cost you very dearly indeed and that's what happened to you. Calm, of course, is the kind of player to attempt a backstab rather than macro-battle it out in the middle or outplay you with a weird strat. This is a concept it seems you fail to grasp.
Type-b isn't the kind of player to cut zerglings to get those Mutas out just a bit faster. Nah, he'll just make 12 more lings. When you then, after a failed bunker rush, move out with 7 rines, 1 bat and 2 medics the following happens:
With that army gone, Mutas start picking away at your base, another group of Zerglings comes in to, again, rape your army and Type-b eventually forces your Nat to lift off. Needless to say you end up on your backfoot and, although some Wraith shenaniganry turns this into a rather interesting game, you'd pretty much lost it from there on out.
Your next game is versus Shine. Dunno if you've heard about that kid but he's pretty agressive. Stork (as well as some random cheerful) even bestowed on him the title of The Typhoon - and justly so I might add. My predictions for the match were: Fantasy will cut it close on Marines and Shine will just make some extra Zerglings and win. Proof:
Right before the match started Pholon wrote:
Fantasy will cut it close on Marines and Shine will just make some extra Zerglings and win.
Oh how I love to be right. When his first Mutas pop out you rely on four Marines, a Wraith
and some poorly placed Turrets to defend. To what gain? Getting that super duper fast Vessel? Shine isn't the kind of player who cares. He'll just 2 Hatch Muta, make more Mutas and win. Irradiate wasn't even researched in time.
At this point I'm getting worried. You're better than both these players but you're losing. Stop cutting corners that don't need to cutting! What's your next game? Versus Killer? Well THAT you can win for sure.
+ Show Spoiler +FFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
Let's stop for a second here and take a look at that wall.
No seriously, look at this wall.
That's two minutes later with still only two Marines defending a wall that isn't Ling-tight. And you know that it isn't. And Killer knows it isn't. And he even knows your Marine count. And you know he knows your Marine count.
I know Terrans are good at defending and all that, but did you expect him to not try and break it? The guy isn't called Killer because he likes to sit around. Why would you do this build against him? In a 100 Liquibets I wouldn't vote him over you once. Go 1 Rax Expand and you will win, I guarantee you (and you can save your super kick-ass build for some other time). I can't begin to fathom why you did this.
I suspect you hoped on playing the Dong that day, preparing this build just for him. Although I'd love to see your newest Terran build or unit combo or whatever rip apart a Jaedong or an Effort, don't cut corners against players called The Typhoon or players who are worse than you simply because they would over-invest in those extra Lings or Mutas. Why would you let their flaw become your Achilles heel? I'm sure your builds did very well during training but that's because you practise against Hyuk who is fucking bad.
So yeah, please get your shit together Fantasy.
Love,
Pholon
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Korea (South)1556 Posts
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fantasy created a build so fancy he couldn't master it and then fantasy got stuck between fantasy and reality because his fancy builds were too fancy for his own good and now he lost his fancyness
sometimes less is more sophisticated, back2basics fantasy thats whats really stands out and fancy
i fancy that
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Five stars! The Killer match in particular made me laugh my ass off. A bit when it happened, and a whole ton when I read this.
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Watch out, it's Pholon the goliath! To be perfectly honest i've never been particularly fond of Fantasy, but he really should be playing better than this indeed.
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Nice writeup there.
Why do players often skimp on units to gain that last little macro or tech edge? When you think you are the better player, you play it safe. It's just like Flash, who used to lose all the time because he went 14CC.
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Lyriene
United States346 Posts
Great read :D. I wish Fantasy would play more like himself, as you said.
He is indeed fun to watch because of his style, but he's been wayyyyy too reckless with cutting off units lately to the point where he'd lose to any decent aggressive players.
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I always thought Fantasy looked like a retard. I don't mean this offensively, he just looks like he's about to start drooling at any moment ...
Fantastic, fantastic writeup. A+, featured thread :o
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Great writeup. And I believe you are totally right. After game 1 in the semi-finals against JD, I was convinced for like 30 minutes that Fantasy was the best player on earth (I also wrote that in the LR-Thread). He crushed JD so hard on HBR, and one week before he went 3-0 in the SPL-Grandfinals.
Since that game he has played an impressive number of dumb games. On top of his awful decision making lately, his unit-control is mediocore (of course compared to other progamers). The game on HBR against Effort yesterday was just so bad. Losing tons of marines under swarm without retreating.
He has a lot of stuff to work on to rise to the top again.
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killer is a killer, no doubt about it
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United States12607 Posts
Great writeup, yes Fantasy has been playing like trash lately and especially vs. Zerg (which is the only matchup he can seem to get in PL  ).
T1 even benched him this week in Proleague!!
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@Pholon: JD went 4pool on Holy World, not 5pool. Maybe you want to correct that 
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5930 Posts
I never thought much of Fantasy's TvZ, especially his bio control. While these mistakes are not like him, they don't surprise me that much.
Strangely enough, I feel he plays his best TvZ against Jaedong. Its like he turns into a different player if Jaedong is in the same room as him.
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I really really really do hope fantasy can get his shits together. Because at the moment, other than Flash there isn't any decent Terran around to cheer for ...
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konadora
Singapore66163 Posts
These are the same thoughts that go through my mind whenever Fantasy plays like this. T_T
Hopefully he'll learn to be a bit more flexible and.. less thrifty.
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Russian Federation4447 Posts
On December 12 2009 21:57 Oxygen wrote:
I always thought Fantasy looked like a retard. I don't mean this offensively, he just looks like he's about to start drooling at any moment ...
Fantastic, fantastic writeup. A+, featured thread :o
Same here. I have a hard time looking at him when the camera turns his way.
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I dont' really blame fantasy for doing his build on ROTK against JD
If you're a poker player, you'll understand that odds are everything and Fantasy made the correct choice.
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Canada5565 Posts
uhhh
Hyuk isn't bad...or do you think JD sucks too?
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konadora
Singapore66163 Posts
On December 12 2009 23:19 NFL2368 wrote:
I dont' really blame fantasy for doing his build on ROTK against JD
If you're a poker player, you'll understand that odds are everything and Fantasy made the correct choice.
It's the correct build choice, but wrong decision making.
If he knows that he can't wall there without having some risk, he should have prepared another separate build order deviation instead of just going for the wall at that area (unless that is, he was fully prepared and ready to take the risk and suffer the consequences should it not work out to his plan).
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yes exactly
thank u pholon
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For a while in the playoff grand finals, I REALLY thought that Fantasy is the next Generation Terran after Flash, he was playing Macro heavy game like Iloveoov and those little cute cheeses like wyhat Boxer did to YellOw. Being able to copy both of those styles is truly amazing but then Jaedong awoke himself and sled him.
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pripple
Finland1714 Posts
nice piece here, gotta agree he's been looking shaky, SKT1 even benched him for this week which is alarming :o
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On December 12 2009 21:28 Pholon wrote:Your game against Hoejja was glorious. We all know how well you played and I mean it when I say I couldn't have done a better job myself.
Best quote of the entire article!
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5930 Posts
On December 12 2009 23:22 Xxio wrote:
uhhh
Hyuk isn't bad...or do you think JD sucks too?
Hyuk has a ~22% win rate in ZvT. I know stats don't mean much but when its that low, you can pretty much assume that Hyuk is piss poor at ZvT and probably a piss poor practice partner for a terran that plays like Fantasy. What I'm getting at is that Hyuk's woeful ZvT has nothing to do with Jaedong.
That said, Hyuk seems to play a bit better when its not on live TV. He's done a lot better in the offline events, even against solid A team terrans.
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You tell the truth, Pholon.
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I personally love to see Fantasy lose. Especially after that loss to Killer. WTF WAS WITH THAT WALL IN?
He's kind of the guy I always root against for some reason. I have no idea why.
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Fantasy's inconsistency is just annoying. I still think he's overrated.
edit: and seeing Fantasy lose always makes me happy
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Last week is a sad week for me. I am a Terran fan and thus, also a fan of fantasy.
Then he won 0 rounds last week. He lost to killer, which is the guy BoXeR nuked twice. I thought Killer would go on a slump after being Nuked.
I think it was yesterday, my liquidbet I vote him over effort. I was thinking, I do not believe he would lose all his matches. Even though opponent is the CJ ace, I am sure he will not lose all the way.
Then he loses again!!! I really cried. That is so dissapointing.
For fantasy league I chose Flash and Sea as my terran, so my points doesn't get affected that much. At first I chose Flash and Fantasy, but after looking at fantasy Round 1 I decided Sea is a better choice.
Although not in my fantasy team, I was waiting for him to get in form and win gold medals. Not silvers or cannon fodders for good players.
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As a fantasy anti-fan, I rather enjoyed this write-up.
I shouldn't have, I know, but there you have it: I'm human.
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Dear Pholon,
Your article kicks ass and i loved reading it.
Regards,
Ben
__________________________________________________________
Dear Fantasy,
Sorry but i never will respect you, because boxer and oov made you what you are. You have a terrible mentality, and losing that huge set to jaedong when you are up 2-0 is just pathetic. That was the point in your career that i made a point to dislike you and your play. The only way you have even been passingly good is with shitty builds, that thankfully everyone has figured out by now. I hope that you go into a slump and never return. Leave the terran race in the hands of the masters. Not just a copy cat kid.
Regards,
Ben
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Just like Best, another T1 hype-train derails and fades into obscurity. SC fans worldwide rejoice!
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United States4796 Posts
Nice writeup! Great read, and I hope fantasy pulls out of this too.
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I thinks hes lost motivation. He just seems really lazy now, and as you pointed out, cutting corners to try and get cheap wins.
Reminds of Jaedongs mini-slump ( VERY mini, dont flame me D where he kept trying to get cheap, easy ZvZ wins by 12 hatching and hoping his opponent didn't scout or was too incompetent to get early lings.
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All I can say is: Touché.
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On December 13 2009 01:21 Misrah wrote:
Sorry but i never will respect you, because boxer and oov made you what you are. You have a terrible mentality, and losing that huge set to jaedong when you are up 2-0 is just pathetic. That was the point in your career that i made a point to dislike you and your play. The only way you have even been passingly good is with shitty builds, that thankfully everyone has figured out by now. I hope that you go into a slump and never return. Leave the terran race in the hands of the masters. Not just a copy cat kid.
agreed 100%, i always enjoy watching fantasy and hyuk lose
On December 13 2009 01:25 vnlegend wrote:
Just like Best, another T1 hype-train derails and fades into obscurity. SC fans worldwide rejoice!
Best wasnt as good as he was a year ago but i think he's still decent
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On December 13 2009 01:21 Misrah wrote:
Dear Pholon,
Your article kicks ass and i loved reading it.
Regards,
Ben
__________________________________________________________
Dear Fantasy,
Sorry but i never will respect you, because boxer and oov made you what you are. You have a terrible mentality, and losing that huge set to jaedong when you are up 2-0 is just pathetic. That was the point in your career that i made a point to dislike you and your play. The only way you have even been passingly good is with shitty builds, that thankfully everyone has figured out by now. I hope that you go into a slump and never return. Leave the terran race in the hands of the masters. Not just a copy cat kid.
Regards,
Ben
Uhh...harsh. Losing to Jaedong is absolutely nothing to indicate you suck, even when up 2 - 0. You forget jaedongs an absolute beast. Also take into consideration that it was his first time getting far in any major event, and he 2-0 ed Bisu the previous set...
Also its a little far to say hes only passingly good with shitty builds. He plays extremely good, fairly standard TvP and has a 60 something % winrate in the matchup.
You also say you hate him cause he was coached by Boxer and Oov? So if he was coached by some unknown guy you wouldnt call him a copycat? Btw wasn't boxer the master of unorthodox tvz?
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On December 13 2009 01:25 vnlegend wrote:
Just like Best, another T1 hype-train derails and fades into obscurity. SC fans worldwide rejoice!
I think that's pretty harsh Best is still a great player and seems to be returning to form.
As for Fantasy, I've personally never liked him either. And I think basically it comes down to the fact he's ugly. There, I said it. I think alot of his anti-fans probably think the same, play styles aside :p
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On December 13 2009 01:49 atm0sphere33 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2009 01:21 Misrah wrote:
Dear Pholon,
Your article kicks ass and i loved reading it.
Regards,
Ben
__________________________________________________________
Dear Fantasy,
Sorry but i never will respect you, because boxer and oov made you what you are. You have a terrible mentality, and losing that huge set to jaedong when you are up 2-0 is just pathetic. That was the point in your career that i made a point to dislike you and your play. The only way you have even been passingly good is with shitty builds, that thankfully everyone has figured out by now. I hope that you go into a slump and never return. Leave the terran race in the hands of the masters. Not just a copy cat kid.
Regards,
Ben Uhh...harsh. Losing to Jaedong is absolutely nothing to indicate you suck, even when up 2 - 0. You forget jaedongs an absolute beast. Also take into consideration that it was his first time getting far in any major event, and he 2-0 ed Bisu the previous set... Also its a little far to say hes only passingly good with shitty builds. He plays extremely good, fairly standard TvP and has a 60 something % winrate in the matchup. You also say you hate him cause he was coached by Boxer and Oov? So if he was coached by some unknown guy you wouldnt call him a copycat? Btw wasn't boxer the master of unorthodox tvz?
I don't respect him because everything he is, is the result of boxer and oov. He did nothing on his own, and never will. With out the hlep of two of the greats, fantasy would be nothing. fantasy still is nothing, because each time he is playing in a semi important set, after each game he runs right back to boxer and oov to get advice and help. He is a mindless copycat, that only looks to oov and boxer for ideas. He brings nothing to the table. IMO
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On December 13 2009 02:13 Misrah wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2009 01:49 atm0sphere33 wrote:On December 13 2009 01:21 Misrah wrote:
Dear Pholon,
Your article kicks ass and i loved reading it.
Regards,
Ben
__________________________________________________________
Dear Fantasy,
Sorry but i never will respect you, because boxer and oov made you what you are. You have a terrible mentality, and losing that huge set to jaedong when you are up 2-0 is just pathetic. That was the point in your career that i made a point to dislike you and your play. The only way you have even been passingly good is with shitty builds, that thankfully everyone has figured out by now. I hope that you go into a slump and never return. Leave the terran race in the hands of the masters. Not just a copy cat kid.
Regards,
Ben Uhh...harsh. Losing to Jaedong is absolutely nothing to indicate you suck, even when up 2 - 0. You forget jaedongs an absolute beast. Also take into consideration that it was his first time getting far in any major event, and he 2-0 ed Bisu the previous set... Also its a little far to say hes only passingly good with shitty builds. He plays extremely good, fairly standard TvP and has a 60 something % winrate in the matchup. You also say you hate him cause he was coached by Boxer and Oov? So if he was coached by some unknown guy you wouldnt call him a copycat? Btw wasn't boxer the master of unorthodox tvz? I don't respect him because everything he is, is the result of boxer and oov. He did nothing on his own, and never will. With out the hlep of two of the greats, fantasy would be nothing. fantasy still is nothing, because each time he is playing in a semi important set, after each game he runs right back to boxer and oov to get advice and help. He is a mindless copycat, that only looks to oov and boxer for ideas. He brings nothing to the table. IMO
Generally your coaches teach you, yes
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Dear Fantasy,
You suck
The end
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On December 13 2009 02:18 atm0sphere33 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2009 02:13 Misrah wrote:On December 13 2009 01:49 atm0sphere33 wrote:On December 13 2009 01:21 Misrah wrote:
Dear Pholon,
Your article kicks ass and i loved reading it.
Regards,
Ben
__________________________________________________________
Dear Fantasy,
Sorry but i never will respect you, because boxer and oov made you what you are. You have a terrible mentality, and losing that huge set to jaedong when you are up 2-0 is just pathetic. That was the point in your career that i made a point to dislike you and your play. The only way you have even been passingly good is with shitty builds, that thankfully everyone has figured out by now. I hope that you go into a slump and never return. Leave the terran race in the hands of the masters. Not just a copy cat kid.
Regards,
Ben Uhh...harsh. Losing to Jaedong is absolutely nothing to indicate you suck, even when up 2 - 0. You forget jaedongs an absolute beast. Also take into consideration that it was his first time getting far in any major event, and he 2-0 ed Bisu the previous set... Also its a little far to say hes only passingly good with shitty builds. He plays extremely good, fairly standard TvP and has a 60 something % winrate in the matchup. You also say you hate him cause he was coached by Boxer and Oov? So if he was coached by some unknown guy you wouldnt call him a copycat? Btw wasn't boxer the master of unorthodox tvz? I don't respect him because everything he is, is the result of boxer and oov. He did nothing on his own, and never will. With out the hlep of two of the greats, fantasy would be nothing. fantasy still is nothing, because each time he is playing in a semi important set, after each game he runs right back to boxer and oov to get advice and help. He is a mindless copycat, that only looks to oov and boxer for ideas. He brings nothing to the table. IMO Generally your coaches teach you, yes
They teach you yes, the add to your play yes- however the player is supposed to bring something of their own! The player is supposed to be great, and then use the coaching to add to their own greatness. Copy pasting builds is not greatness. When a good player and a good coach work together the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. When coaching fantasy you only get out what you put in. ie. you bring all of the talent and skill, the player brings nothing. end of discussion!
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On December 13 2009 02:25 Misrah wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2009 02:18 atm0sphere33 wrote:On December 13 2009 02:13 Misrah wrote:On December 13 2009 01:49 atm0sphere33 wrote:On December 13 2009 01:21 Misrah wrote:
Dear Pholon,
Your article kicks ass and i loved reading it.
Regards,
Ben
__________________________________________________________
Dear Fantasy,
Sorry but i never will respect you, because boxer and oov made you what you are. You have a terrible mentality, and losing that huge set to jaedong when you are up 2-0 is just pathetic. That was the point in your career that i made a point to dislike you and your play. The only way you have even been passingly good is with shitty builds, that thankfully everyone has figured out by now. I hope that you go into a slump and never return. Leave the terran race in the hands of the masters. Not just a copy cat kid.
Regards,
Ben Uhh...harsh. Losing to Jaedong is absolutely nothing to indicate you suck, even when up 2 - 0. You forget jaedongs an absolute beast. Also take into consideration that it was his first time getting far in any major event, and he 2-0 ed Bisu the previous set... Also its a little far to say hes only passingly good with shitty builds. He plays extremely good, fairly standard TvP and has a 60 something % winrate in the matchup. You also say you hate him cause he was coached by Boxer and Oov? So if he was coached by some unknown guy you wouldnt call him a copycat? Btw wasn't boxer the master of unorthodox tvz? I don't respect him because everything he is, is the result of boxer and oov. He did nothing on his own, and never will. With out the hlep of two of the greats, fantasy would be nothing. fantasy still is nothing, because each time he is playing in a semi important set, after each game he runs right back to boxer and oov to get advice and help. He is a mindless copycat, that only looks to oov and boxer for ideas. He brings nothing to the table. IMO Generally your coaches teach you, yes They teach you yes, the add to your play yes- however the player is supposed to bring something of their own! The player is supposed to be great, and then use the coaching to add to their own greatness. Copy pasting builds is not greatness. When a good player and a good coach work together the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. When coaching fantasy you only get out what you put in. ie. you bring all of the talent and skill, the player brings nothing. end of discussion!
That's a retarded thing to say about any OSL finalist.
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On December 12 2009 23:22 Xxio wrote:
uhhh
Hyuk isn't bad...or do you think JD sucks too?
Yeah! And what about Advocate? Can some one please think about the children?!
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On December 13 2009 02:25 Misrah wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2009 02:18 atm0sphere33 wrote:On December 13 2009 02:13 Misrah wrote:On December 13 2009 01:49 atm0sphere33 wrote:On December 13 2009 01:21 Misrah wrote:
Dear Pholon,
Your article kicks ass and i loved reading it.
Regards,
Ben
__________________________________________________________
Dear Fantasy,
Sorry but i never will respect you, because boxer and oov made you what you are. You have a terrible mentality, and losing that huge set to jaedong when you are up 2-0 is just pathetic. That was the point in your career that i made a point to dislike you and your play. The only way you have even been passingly good is with shitty builds, that thankfully everyone has figured out by now. I hope that you go into a slump and never return. Leave the terran race in the hands of the masters. Not just a copy cat kid.
Regards,
Ben Uhh...harsh. Losing to Jaedong is absolutely nothing to indicate you suck, even when up 2 - 0. You forget jaedongs an absolute beast. Also take into consideration that it was his first time getting far in any major event, and he 2-0 ed Bisu the previous set... Also its a little far to say hes only passingly good with shitty builds. He plays extremely good, fairly standard TvP and has a 60 something % winrate in the matchup. You also say you hate him cause he was coached by Boxer and Oov? So if he was coached by some unknown guy you wouldnt call him a copycat? Btw wasn't boxer the master of unorthodox tvz? I don't respect him because everything he is, is the result of boxer and oov. He did nothing on his own, and never will. With out the hlep of two of the greats, fantasy would be nothing. fantasy still is nothing, because each time he is playing in a semi important set, after each game he runs right back to boxer and oov to get advice and help. He is a mindless copycat, that only looks to oov and boxer for ideas. He brings nothing to the table. IMO Generally your coaches teach you, yes They teach you yes, the add to your play yes- however the player is supposed to bring something of their own! The player is supposed to be great, and then use the coaching to add to their own greatness. Copy pasting builds is not greatness. When a good player and a good coach work together the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. When coaching fantasy you only get out what you put in. ie. you bring all of the talent and skill, the player brings nothing. end of discussion!
Thats why Midas/Canata reached 2 finals each right?
As much as I hate Fantasy and hate him being a Oov-Boxer copycat, not everyone can do what Fantasy does, his TvP was on a world of its own last season with really smart creative play, his TvZ is a Boxer/Oov gimmick, but tell me they can execute it that well? Just enjoy what Fantasy does, he is the 2nd most entertaining terran. + If you are a fan of Boxer/Oov aka a fan of SC just appreciate Fantasy, why? Because he is the reincarnation of the mind/soul of Boxer/Oov into modern BW, and even if his fame was not built completely by his own hands, appreciate his legacy and what he means atleast. Oov wants his golden mouse and he is trying to achieve it through Fantasy's hands.
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I think in a way, oov and boxer fucked up Fantasy. It seems he just doesn't ever deviate from the "script". And in the end that's why his games look so bad when people figured him out.
You see top players like Flash and Stork commonly adjust their builds based on spawn locations and scouting info. And could play at top level late into games. Fantasy never seems to do that. He's like a soldier who just carries out the plan. It's like the guy has no mind of his own, and has no confidence in his own ability to make the correct in-game decisions.
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This was great.
I can't say I'm too surprised at fantasy's recent losses to zergs though. I've yet to be impressed by any part of his bio game, and his past TvZ wins were largely about either build order trickery or zergs handling mech badly.
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How can a player who can't adapt be called smart?
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On December 13 2009 02:25 Misrah wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2009 02:18 atm0sphere33 wrote:On December 13 2009 02:13 Misrah wrote:On December 13 2009 01:49 atm0sphere33 wrote:On December 13 2009 01:21 Misrah wrote:
Dear Pholon,
Your article kicks ass and i loved reading it.
Regards,
Ben
__________________________________________________________
Dear Fantasy,
Sorry but i never will respect you, because boxer and oov made you what you are. You have a terrible mentality, and losing that huge set to jaedong when you are up 2-0 is just pathetic. That was the point in your career that i made a point to dislike you and your play. The only way you have even been passingly good is with shitty builds, that thankfully everyone has figured out by now. I hope that you go into a slump and never return. Leave the terran race in the hands of the masters. Not just a copy cat kid.
Regards,
Ben Uhh...harsh. Losing to Jaedong is absolutely nothing to indicate you suck, even when up 2 - 0. You forget jaedongs an absolute beast. Also take into consideration that it was his first time getting far in any major event, and he 2-0 ed Bisu the previous set... Also its a little far to say hes only passingly good with shitty builds. He plays extremely good, fairly standard TvP and has a 60 something % winrate in the matchup. You also say you hate him cause he was coached by Boxer and Oov? So if he was coached by some unknown guy you wouldnt call him a copycat? Btw wasn't boxer the master of unorthodox tvz? I don't respect him because everything he is, is the result of boxer and oov. He did nothing on his own, and never will. With out the hlep of two of the greats, fantasy would be nothing. fantasy still is nothing, because each time he is playing in a semi important set, after each game he runs right back to boxer and oov to get advice and help. He is a mindless copycat, that only looks to oov and boxer for ideas. He brings nothing to the table. IMO Generally your coaches teach you, yes They teach you yes, the add to your play yes- however the player is supposed to bring something of their own! The player is supposed to be great, and then use the coaching to add to their own greatness. Copy pasting builds is not greatness. When a good player and a good coach work together the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. When coaching fantasy you only get out what you put in. ie. you bring all of the talent and skill, the player brings nothing. end of discussion!
Cause Fantasy totally has Oov's macro oriented style!
Seriously, the Fantasy build was created by oov and boxer, yes. Anything else he directly copies? no. Unorthodox, cheesy micro builds are his style, just like they were boxers style. therefore boxer certainly ad a hand in helping him craft his playing style, but that doesnt mean hes a direct copy of boxer. Look at his TvP and TvT. I really dont see any resemblance to boxer. its really doubtful that a guy who beats bisu , reaches the osl finals, takes jaedong to 5 games, and belongs to the top tier of players has no natural skill of his own
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I hope Fantasy Recovers and do something epic
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My opinions is that Fantasy refuses to play standard because he's currently the top SKT1 terran - a position that once was held by Oov and Boxer - so he just dislikes playing like any other terran.
He looked very promising in the past which makes him kinda overrated now. Sometimes people expect him to play at Bisu-Flash-Jaedong level and that's obviously silly. He's good, but games like the one against Killer make it clear he still has a lot to learn...
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On December 13 2009 02:13 Misrah wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2009 01:49 atm0sphere33 wrote:On December 13 2009 01:21 Misrah wrote:
Dear Pholon,
Your article kicks ass and i loved reading it.
Regards,
Ben
__________________________________________________________
Dear Fantasy,
Sorry but i never will respect you, because boxer and oov made you what you are. You have a terrible mentality, and losing that huge set to jaedong when you are up 2-0 is just pathetic. That was the point in your career that i made a point to dislike you and your play. The only way you have even been passingly good is with shitty builds, that thankfully everyone has figured out by now. I hope that you go into a slump and never return. Leave the terran race in the hands of the masters. Not just a copy cat kid.
Regards,
Ben Uhh...harsh. Losing to Jaedong is absolutely nothing to indicate you suck, even when up 2 - 0. You forget jaedongs an absolute beast. Also take into consideration that it was his first time getting far in any major event, and he 2-0 ed Bisu the previous set... Also its a little far to say hes only passingly good with shitty builds. He plays extremely good, fairly standard TvP and has a 60 something % winrate in the matchup. You also say you hate him cause he was coached by Boxer and Oov? So if he was coached by some unknown guy you wouldnt call him a copycat? Btw wasn't boxer the master of unorthodox tvz? I don't respect him because everything he is, is the result of boxer and oov. He did nothing on his own, and never will. With out the hlep of two of the greats, fantasy would be nothing. fantasy still is nothing, because each time he is playing in a semi important set, after each game he runs right back to boxer and oov to get advice and help. He is a mindless copycat, that only looks to oov and boxer for ideas. He brings nothing to the table. IMO
I'm not a fantasy fan, but you seeing him discussing the games with his coaches makes you assume hes a mindless copy cat? you know coaches are there to help offer builds and ideas, you think bisu sat down one day and got a huge brain wave for his build against savior? no, coach park had a huge hand in it. you forget all the effort fantasy has to put forward to get the execution right and i'm sure contributes ideas to the builds. you sound like a butthurt fan boy. who did fantasy beat that you liked that caused you to have such nerd rage?
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Do you guys remember the YEAR OR SO that Flash wasn't doing so hot? It wasn't that long ago.
Players go into slumps all the time. Every player has gone into a slump at some point, INCLUDING Jaedong.
I don't understand why bad performance in the past month or two is enough to warrant excessive negative criticism bordering on hatred. The Korean Starcraft scene is EXTREMELY competitive, and every player who's ever been on top has admitted that it is EXTREMELY competitive.
That said, it should not come as a surprise that at some point a good player will start doing really badly for some unknown reason. It's happened to Stork, Bisu, Jaedong, Flash, and Leta. And now it's happening to Fantasy.
Debate about Fantasy's level aside, I am pretty confident that he WILL rise back to his form. Whatever people consider to be HIS best, expect him to reach HIS best again at some point.
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It wont be boxer who brings new strategies to sc...
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And not only Fantasy, but SKT1 is doing badly during round 2 week 1, I hope this changes during 2nd week!!
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On December 12 2009 23:23 konadora wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2009 23:19 NFL2368 wrote:
I dont' really blame fantasy for doing his build on ROTK against JD
If you're a poker player, you'll understand that odds are everything and Fantasy made the correct choice. It's the correct build choice, but wrong decision making. If he knows that he can't wall there without having some risk, he should have prepared another separate build order deviation instead of just going for the wall at that area (unless that is, he was fully prepared and ready to take the risk and suffer the consequences should it not work out to his plan).
Yeah, but the point is that Jaedong really shouldn't have gone overpool if he played according to odds. It was a balls to the wall risky play by JD and it turned out working for sheer luck alone.
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What a great excuse to watch Fantasy vs Killer again.
Ahhh. Warms my heart.
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On December 12 2009 23:22 Xxio wrote:
uhhh
Hyuk isn't bad...or do you think JD sucks too? we are dealing with hyuk's TvZ.
and great read, you deserve that star next to your name
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jeez why so many harsh words against fantasy? just because you dont like a player doesn't mean you should disrespect him as much as possible. pholon started by criticizing his play and then some angry ppl jump on the bandwagon and attack the person...
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Lol so true. Korean netizens gogo translate and post
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On December 12 2009 21:28 Pholon wrote:I'm sure your builds did very well during training but that's because you practise against Hyuk who is fucking bad.
I lol'd profusely at this. Brilliant writeup dude.
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(A) The Fantasy bashing has gone way too far. How can anyone think he doesn't bring anything of his own to SC? How can anyone not realize that he works insanely hard to develop his potential? How can anyone think that his having the best coaches makes him a "mindless copycat"? He's not my favorite player by any means but for the love of god stop fucking slandering him, he doesn't deserve it. Have some common sense.
(B) Everyone slumps. Flash also had a period where he tried to cut corners against Zergs all the time, and paid the price. Now his TvZ is the best ever, hands down. Maybe Fantasy is also going through a transitional period.
(C) Very nice write-up! I didn't realize that Fantasy's recent TvZ record was quite so bleak. He're my take on it: Fantasy has really mean late-game macro in TvZ, with his crazy tank lines and huge vessel clouds and stuff. As long as he can get an economical edge, he can ride it to victory and look amazing while doing it (see Fantasy vs Hoejja). The problem is that he lacks the insane bio control of Flash, and so he's not guaranteed a midgame advantage against pretty much every Zerg, like Flash is. (Mutas and lurkers seem to just not affect Flash, which makes Lair tech play pretty fucking difficult against him.) Flash has discovered that just by playing the same safe build, he can secure an advantage with his perfect control 100% of the time (often just by killing Z's 3rd) and steamroll his way to victory. It doesn't work that way for Fantasy. For his late-game TvZ death machine to kick in, he needs to somehow get an early game advantage, whether it's by cutting defense, vulture raids, OL snipes, wraiths, etc. He's pretty good at doing that stuff and exploiting Zergs' early game weaknesses, but they're all catching on now and Fantasy just needs to adapt, which I have no doubt he will eventually do.
Fantasy may always be a glass cannon, but as long as he stays ahead of the curve and prepares well, he'll remain a threatening player, mainly in individual leagues. He's also >50% in TvT and can play excellent standard TvP, which means he's quite useful in proleague, although I strongly doubt that he'll ever be a Flash/Jaedong/Bisu-level proleague workhorse.
Edit: Fantasy deserved the Terran of the Year award a little more than Flash did IMO, but he's a lot less popular.
(Flash fan here.)
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On December 13 2009 05:44 Djabanete wrote:(A) The Fantasy bashing has gone way too far. How can anyone think he doesn't bring anything of his own to SC? How can anyone not realize that he works insanely hard to develop his potential? How can anyone think that his having the best coaches makes him a "mindless copycat"? He's not my favorite player by any means but for the love of god stop fucking slandering him, he doesn't deserve it. Have some common sense. (B) Everyone slumps. Flash also had a period where he tried to cut corners against Zergs all the time, and paid the price. Now his TvZ is the best ever, hands down. Maybe Fantasy is also going through a transitional period. (C) Very nice write-up! I didn't realize that Fantasy's recent TvZ record was quite so bleak. He're my take on it: Fantasy has really mean late-game macro in TvZ, with his crazy tank lines and huge vessel clouds and stuff. As long as he can get an economical edge, he can ride it to victory and look amazing while doing it (see Fantasy vs Hoejja). The problem is that he lacks the insane bio control of Flash, and so he's not guaranteed a midgame advantage against pretty much every Zerg, like Flash is. (Mutas and lurkers seem to just not affect Flash, which makes Lair tech play pretty fucking difficult against him.) Flash has discovered that just by playing the same safe build, he can secure an advantage with his perfect control 100% of the time (often just by killing Z's 3rd) and steamroll his way to victory. It doesn't work that way for Fantasy. For his late-game TvZ death machine to kick in, he needs to somehow get an early game advantage, whether it's by cutting defense, vulture raids, OL snipes, wraiths, etc. He's pretty good at doing that stuff and exploiting Zergs' early game weaknesses, but they're all catching on now and Fantasy just needs to adapt, which I have no doubt he will eventually do. Fantasy may always be a glass cannon, but as long as he stays ahead of the curve and prepares well, he'll remain a threatening player, mainly in individual leagues. He's also >50% in TvT and can play excellent standard TvP, which means he's quite useful in proleague, although I strongly doubt that he'll ever be a Flash/Jaedong/Bisu-level proleague workhorse. Edit: Fantasy deserved the Terran of the Year award a little more than Flash did IMO, but he's a lot less popular. (Flash fan here.)
Great post.
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This ridicilous , Fantasy is such an amazing player, how the hell can you give him such desrciption ; o Just cuz he was losing , you totally change perspective and see everything through his current shape. Ye fucking everything he has done and invented was out of dumb fucking luck, mech included.
I don`t know why you hate Fantasy so much and almost all of what you wrote was totally subjective and false.
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United States2186 Posts
This is really nothing new. Fantasy has been dropping key games for ridiculous reasons from the onset of his real career. Game 5 vs Stork and game 5 vs Jaedong he knew their exact builds, he had an auto win build available, and he chose to do an auto loss build both times. 6 fact vs 1 gate double expand and Fantasy Build vs 2 hatch muta skipped hydra instead of 4 fact allin or non and Valkonic.
His skill level is artificially inflated because he has oov behind him preparing builds and series strategies. While Fantasy does understand the strategies very well (most of the time haha), he doesn't possess the corresponding game sense/decision making that oov had. Take that Holy World 4 pool game: Fantasy defended it, Jaedong lost the game right then. From that kind of advantage Jaedong had no chance of victory and you can be sure that oov or Flash or whoever would absolutely have won the game from that position. But Fantasy just doesn't have the level of decision making of a starleague winner. When things don't go to plan he kinda fizzles out most of the time. Flash noted in some interview awhile back that he is best at reacting in game to various problems while Fantasy comes in very strong and prepared but can't react as well.
Btw Fantasy absolutely should not go 1 rax FE: he's terrible at it and always has been. Canata is quite frankly better at TvZ than Fantasy now that he is following oov's strategies as well because Canata has much better bionic control and Fantasy doesn't really have an edge on decision making in normal bio builds. He definitely needs to stick with Valkonic variations until oov creates another build (don't even mention Boxer, his influence is minuscule compared to oov's and yes it is discernible who puts in what). Valkonic is most definitely not figured out (see Canata vs Effort) and there are many variations that they haven't used to their fullest potential (namely the 1 rax FE into speed vult/valkyrie). It's just he's doing really dumb things when he does Valkonic like skipping Valkyries vs 2 hatch muta (lol?) for whatever reason and his 1 Rax FE is just as bad as when he played GGPlay a year and some months ago.
Quite frankly it's amazing Fantasy managed to last this long without any kind of real slump. Losing 2 game 5's in the finals and losing the semis to Jaedong in such a fashion would be killer on one's mental state. Fantasy definitely has the fighting spirit and he will bounce back from his problems one way or another I bet. And so long as his play is consistent, he will skyrocket to the very top once oov creates another build or brings some back from the past like he did vs Hoejja (that's an oov build from December 2004). You can't expect Fantasy to be Flash, someone perfect in decision making and game sense, because he's not. Fantasy is Fantasy, with his own very unique strengths and weaknesses. So he probably is going to keep dropping random games for bad reasons but he also is going to soar once again for the same reasons as before.
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On December 13 2009 05:59 UFO wrote:
This ridicilous , Fantasy is such an amazing player, how the hell can you give him such desrciption ; o Just cuz he was losing , you totally change perspective and see everything through his current shape. Ye fucking everything he has done and invented was out of dumb fucking luck, mech included.
I don`t know why you hate Fantasy so much and almost all of what you wrote was totally subjective and false.
The rage is strong with this one.
Bro, he never slandered Fantasy like he was some shitty noob. His post was the most PC safe post imaginable, and relied heavily on actual facts - the games. The games are not subjective. Chill out.
EDIT: And Ver is still the best poster on StarCraft-related information, hands down.
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Great writeup.
I can't find the quote right now, but about a month ago Flash was asked what was different about the way he plays and the way Fantasy plays.
He said that Fantasy goes into a game with a huge grocery list of plans. I'll do this, and if my opponent does this, I'll do that...but if my opponent does this, then I'll do that...etc. etc. he might bring plans for 20 different situations.
But what happens when something happens that isn't covered by those 20 situations? He completely falls apart and can't adapt to the situation. (by contrast, Flash says he goes into a game with one general overall strategy, and then just wings it and adjusts to what his opponent does mid-game).
Another thing, Fantasy's bio control isn't terrible. It's not amazing, but it's not bad. It's his decision-making and game sense with bio that needs work, he underestimates how fragile his MnM are against Zerg a lot recently, and he's not good at 'sensing' where the Zerg cluster of units is in the early-game.
Even though I dislike Fantasy, I hope he does come back. Flash has TvT and TvZ covered, so I think it would be nice if Fantasy could figure out a way to make TvP an easier matchup for Terrans, against top Protoss players. "How to avoid getting raped by four arbiters and psi storm while my opponent expands everywhere" would be a good starting thesis.
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i only really started watching pro starcraft about a year ago and fantasy vs. jaedong was one of the games i watched.
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
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On December 13 2009 06:03 fanatacist wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2009 05:59 UFO wrote:
This ridicilous , Fantasy is such an amazing player, how the hell can you give him such desrciption ; o Just cuz he was losing , you totally change perspective and see everything through his current shape. Ye fucking everything he has done and invented was out of dumb fucking luck, mech included.
I don`t know why you hate Fantasy so much and almost all of what you wrote was totally subjective and false. The rage is strong with this one. Bro, he never slandered Fantasy like he was some shitty noob. His post was the most PC safe post imaginable, and relied heavily on actual facts - the games. The games are not subjective. Chill out. EDIT: And Ver is still the best poster on StarCraft-related information, hands down.
This guy seems to rage and curse over every post he disagrees with :-\
On the actual OP, brilliant write. As a Fantasy anti-fan it makes my heart glow to see so many of his epic fails posted in one place.
Personally, I think fantasy is the puppet of SKT Terran masterminds. I don't think he'd be half the player he is now without SKT's coaching staff. He's got good mechanics and decent micro, but his gamesense, and like Pholon said, overall strategizing is just blargh. I'm not a big fan of Terran in general, but I like Flash way more than him.
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Netherlands6142 Posts
What, no dont translate this
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On December 12 2009 23:22 Xxio wrote:
uhhh
Hyuk isn't bad...or do you think JD sucks too?
just because hyuk beat jaedong doesn't mean hes good.
On December 13 2009 05:44 Djabanete wrote:Edit: Fantasy deserved the Terran of the Year award a little more than Flash did IMO, but he's a lot less popular. (Flash fan here.)
No. Just no.
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I'm so disappointed in Fantasy's play recently. I would call myself a fan of his and was hoping maybe this OSL would finally be his Gold, but then he goes and has games like that against Shine....I just hope he can regroup and surge again next OSL.
Whether you like him or not, I think you gotta admit he kinda deserves a gold already. In the meantime I guess he'll have to just try to remember the proleague finals above anything else =/
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hyuk is way better than savior will ever hope to be
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Netherlands6142 Posts
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I'm surprised he still tries these kind of builds when hes shown he can do TvZ standard bio play pretty great anyway..
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flash = standard tvz with perfect execution atm
fanatasy = wants to show something new every time he plays
i love both of them
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Great write-up Pholon! fantasy dissapointed us all.
On December 13 2009 10:18 tryTRY wrote:
hyuk is way better than savior will ever hope to be
Oh cmon man you cannot possibly be a more transparent troll, at least be a little subtle, maybe back it up with half-baked and possibly fictionaly "facts" and skewed battle reports..
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fantasy made 3 osl semifinals in a row, i wouldn't call him bad
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Fantasy NEEDS to polish his styles more. He plays something different EVERY FREAKEN GAME! Stick to one style, polish it, be the best at it then IF it is figured out, try another style then go back to the first style, alternate between to keep your opponent thinking.
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It seems pretty evident that Fantasy's slumping lately, especially in TvZ. But I still think that a lot of people being a bit harsh with the criticism. Obviously, Fantasy is a player who likes to come into a game with a plan, and has difficulty deviating from that plan. But it's quite a leap from that fact to the conclusion that he's simply a robot who simply plays whatever build Oov and/or Boxer create for him.
First off, I'd be interested in hearing how people concluded that Oov is simply feeding Fantasy these builds, and that Fantasy has no role in the creative process himself. Sure, it's easy to point to the coaches and simply blame all of Fantasy's success on them. This even meshes well with his planning-intensive playstyle. But is there really any reason to conclude that Fantasy is simply a spindly-fingered meat pupped with an over-sized adam's apple? I contend that there is not.
I think the biggest reason that Fantasy gets so much bad press is because of the inevitable comparisons to Flash. Flash is a player with absolutely GOD-LIKE game sense, and I'm pretty confident that a comparison between him and ANY other player would make the other player look bad in that respect. Take Flash out of the picture, though, and Fantasy stacks up pretty well against the other significant terrans on the scene. Dislike him if you must, but I think it's silly to simply write him off as a manifestation of Oov's creative genius. 2 OSL silvers is a hell of an accomplishment, and to think that he could do that without any ability to think and adapt is laughable.
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On December 13 2009 10:36 infinity2k9 wrote:
he can do TvZ standard bio play pretty great anyway..
XD Great joke, man!
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On December 13 2009 10:56 jalstar wrote:
fantasy made 3 osl semifinals in a row, i wouldn't call him bad
i heard that he debuted around the same time as jaedong :o
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Good read Pholon, and also a nice post by Ver, as always.
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When I recently started playing starcaft and heard about the "Fantasy Build" I thought it was called so only because only in your dreams would mech work as well as bio lol.
edit: with respect to TvZ of course.
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I believe Fantasy's bumbling play as of late exemplify either:
a) very poor play on his part - he is just notthinking his builds through and making very basic strategical errors (due to stress maybe?) or b) our misunderstanding of the situation - it just shows how the Korean progamers are on a different level when it comes to SC. It kind of reminds me of the 'poker' levels - "he knows that I know that he knows ..." haha.
The simple solution is a) but I like to believe in b) because it's more interesting and quite plausible too. It makes me that much more astonished at how far these progamers have taken SC strategy
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Yep, I already mentioned that he was overrated
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I find it frustrating to watch. It's a sad state of affairs when no longer is the most ingenious player (someone like Boxer) dominant, instead we have someone like Flash that's 99% mechanics. Flash said himself that the reason he does the same build over and over and over is "because they win the most". That's all that matters these days, winning. It's just sad.
Oh, how you've fallen from grace, Starcraft. I can't love you like I used to. ;_;
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Lol, spewing false stereotypes and seeing Starcraft with nostalgia fogged glasses.
Starcraft has not fallen from grace.
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On December 13 2009 13:06 Avidkeystamper wrote:
Lol, spewing false stereotypes and seeing Starcraft with nostalgia fogged glasses.
Starcraft has not fallen from grace.
SDM wrote about it in a blog on GomTV as I recall.
The game's been figured out, and people like Flash just don't attract an audience like the star players of old did. They're robots that produce insane results. That's not nearly as entertaining, or as exciting to watch. It's mostly just nerds into the scene who appreciate that kind of thing. So I understand that the TL user base might find this difficult to understand.
He wrote that the game has seen declining numbers since 2006.
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Okay, I can see why you would think that way. But when I watch games from nowadays v. games from the old, I think recent games are more exciting.
The game hasn't been figured out though, and I don't agree that they're robots, what makes them so that separates them from the old gamers?
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5930 Posts
I agree that the progamers these days are pretty darn boring compared to the old guard even though the games are a whole better to watch.
With people like Chalrenge and Zeus not playing anymore and FBH being unable to win a game these days, the whole scene is less interesting and has kind of disconnected itself from the fans despite the fact the sheer quality of gameplay has improved by a great lot. I love Movie's PvZ, for example, but I don't give a shit who he is the minute he steps outside the booth because he has the personality of a rock.
The "Stork-Kwanro" issue is the type of drama we need, even if its pretty juvenile, to make these progamers feel like actual people.
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nice Pholon hahaha
I whole-heartily agree with it as well.
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fantasy can't read English, sorry to break it to you guys...
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to be honest, the whole skt team has been playing like trash recently.
ANY S class should not be loosing to shine OR bogus.
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Fantasy, don't do it for yourself.
Do it for my FPL team!
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On December 13 2009 12:59 Abyzou wrote:
I find it frustrating to watch. It's a sad state of affairs when no longer is the most ingenious player (someone like Boxer) dominant, instead we have someone like Flash that's 99% mechanics. Flash said himself that the reason he does the same build over and over and over is "because they win the most". That's all that matters these days, winning. It's just sad.
Oh, how you've fallen from grace, Starcraft. I can't love you like I used to. ;_;
You tried this exact same thing in this thread and mysteriously vanished when people like Ver started explaining how wrong you are about Flash. Would you care to support your assertion this time? I don't want to derail this thread to be about Flash instead of Fantasy, but seriously.
Also, as much as I love watching old games for what they represent and the personalities in the booths, even games that are still talked about today like Boxer vs Reach on Neo Forbidden Zone do not remotely compare in terms of excitement and quality of play to the matches in which Flash and Bisu (for example) face off now. The mourning of "old' Starcraft strikes me in much the same way as the people who claim that baseball isn't interesting anymore because now players hit 50 homers a season and back in their day if you wanted a run you had to steal two bases for it, gosh darn it. The refinement of play in both sports has led to much more athleticism, be it 400 EAPM or 105-MPH pitches, and a much better spectator experience, even if now you don't get the same wacky antics and crazy build orders that ceased working as soon as people figured out what was actually good and what only worked because the opponent wasn't skilled enough to react to it.
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"who is fucking bad."
"Love,
Pholon"
Very nice ending
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He was never great. Just had a good run in a few OSLs and plays well against Jaedong for some reason. He is bordering a sub-50% TvZ now. This isn't unexpected.
Hey, maybe Oov and Boxer stopped giving him advice?
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On December 13 2009 12:59 Abyzou wrote:
I find it frustrating to watch. It's a sad state of affairs when no longer is the most ingenious player (someone like Boxer) dominant, instead we have someone like Flash that's 99% mechanics. Flash said himself that the reason he does the same build over and over and over is "because they win the most". That's all that matters these days, winning. It's just sad.
Oh, how you've fallen from grace, Starcraft. I can't love you like I used to. ;_;
Flash is ingenious. I remember you said something equally retarded in another thread.
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I hate fantasy so much. Still I think it's a bit early to say there's a fundamental flaw with his play. All of the great players hit a slump at some time. His TvP mine surrounds are gorgeous. His game against jangbi on god's garden was beautiful.
Still... hope the bast keeps on losing.
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I LOVE fantasy. And this thread made me feel good acctually because I thought this community only could heap arbitrary criticism over him. But he has fans...! And lol you people calling one of the most clever SC players in the world a robot?? Compare him to Canata ffs! Enough said.
... And it is just idiotic to say that Fantasy can't adapt his play as well as Flash because they play so differently: ofc Flash can adapt because he always play standard. Fantasy relies on technical rushes.
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Well said. I don't know what the fuck is happening to my boy.
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Why do people seriously claim to "hate" Fantasy anyway? I mean geez, "dislike", fair enough, but "hate" seems a tad ridiculous, no? There are several players I don' really like that much but shit, they're a bunch of dudes in Korea who I don't actually know in the slightest. How am I supposed to 'hate' any of them?
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Hey he still has the best TvP out there.
Each time he plays that it just brings a huge smile to my face.
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On December 13 2009 20:36 IMlemon wrote:
Hey he still has the best TvP out there.
Each time he plays that it just brings a huge smile to my face.
Actually, Flash's TvP is better. Fantasy had a great TvP at one point in time, but I think most Protoss players have figured out his heavy harassment style by now. So now he just has a normal TvP which just gets raped by arbiter gayness mixed with 1a2a3a.
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Totally agree with the writeup, but I really don't mind Fantasy sucking because he's on my antiteam :D
I always knew Flash is the only one to trust ^_^
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Fantasy did a nice save against Killer. I don't think its right to criticize him for that one. He even sent out a vulture to kill 3-4 drones.
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I just saw a Fantasy Team with all SKT1 players, or almost all...
At least he got the key players @ his fantasy team.
--->Fantasy being the captain
He only have 5 points left @ week 2.
SKT1 pls catch up!!
Maybe round 3 I will change my team to full SKT1 team
Hopefully Fantasy will rise again and go even further by then!!
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On December 13 2009 20:24 KristianJS wrote:
Why do people seriously claim to "hate" Fantasy anyway? I mean geez, "dislike", fair enough, but "hate" seems a tad ridiculous, no? There are several players I don' really like that much but shit, they're a bunch of dudes in Korea who I don't actually know in the slightest. How am I supposed to 'hate' any of them?
Bit dramatic on the semantics neh?
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On December 13 2009 21:06 meegrean wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2009 20:36 IMlemon wrote:
Hey he still has the best TvP out there.
Each time he plays that it just brings a huge smile to my face. Actually, Flash's TvP is better. Fantasy had a great TvP at one point in time, but I think most Protoss players have figured out his heavy harassment style by now. So now he just has a normal TvP which just gets raped by arbiter gayness mixed with 1a2a3a.
can you terrans please shut the hell up with this bullshit in every fucking thread on the forum?
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i love the last line. hyuk's zvt is atrocious. fantasy is still one of my favorite players, but he has to step up a little.
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LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
i dont even know what to say
such a compelling arguement
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Hehe I lol'd ^^ Great writeup with the vids and the liquipedia links.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Pholon/Fantasy/fant5.png)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images/c/cf/Lpize_icon.png){kind=icon}
![[image loading]](http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/1599/vodaz1.gif)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Pholon/Fantasy/fant1.png)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Pholon/Fantasy/fant2.png)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Pholon/Fantasy/fant3.png)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Pholon/Fantasy/fant4.png)
