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I love teamliquid's liquipedia feature. Anyone who doesn't know about it should check it out here.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Main_Page
I know there are many A+ or even S class players in Korea who don't make jack shit.
What is everyone's opinion on everyone chipping in $1 or $10. If we get 50 people each to chip in $5, we'll have $250.
We could hire an S class player from Korea (preferably one that is not making much money, but is still really good and has lots of time) to increase the size of liquipedia.
Average salary for a korean middle class person is 2000 USD a month. Starting salary is anything from 1000 USD a month and lower. If they are working without college education (which most hardcore korean pub gamers are), they will be making even less. Most S class korean gamers are not making that much either because they aren't old enough, or because they play too much starcraft to focus on career. The point is, there should be some S class players in Korea who wouldn't mind a $250.
For example, JulyZerg was pretty good when he was in high school (that's why he's called JulyZerg. he only signs on during summer which starts in July.) $250 for an A+ high school kid, or for an unemployed or unsponsored S class player seems very do-able. (remember when Mind or some other progamer fainted at a tournament because his team didn't have enough money for good nutrition). If anything, they get an ego trip being able to post something this on TL.net which is a pretty famous site by now.
I'm proposing to get a shit load of A+/S class player quality stuff added to liquipedia. so instead of just build orders, also add side notes, analysis, and what-not.
A TL.net admin can start a paypal account and everyone on TLnet who likes this idea can add $5 to the account. after a month, if the account has more than $200 in it, we'll have some of TL.net's korean members email some korean clans to see if they have or know of any A+/S class players who would like to double the size of liquipedia for a bulk sum of $250.
Poll: Would you donate $5 for A+/S class material on Liquipedia?
(Vote): yes
(Vote): no. don't have money, but I'll still use it when everyone else is done paying
(Vote): no, because I don't care about S class material and analysis
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I would only pay $5 for  Jaedong to edit Liquipedia, and then he'd also have to mention me in his OSL victory speech
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United States2186 Posts
Not even getting into the feasibility aspect, the Liquipedia strategy section simply isn't used enough because people are too lazy and just go to the strat forum.
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Honestly I wouldn't want to pay Koreans to work on lliquipedia simply because foreigners tend to be good at strategy and analysis since we don't get to play 24/7 and perfect our micro. But everyone has time to check out a replay and see what was going on, what went wrong and how to fix it. Just look at some of the top foreigners, IdrA, Dinot even Ret all have extremely good macro, timings and strategy, even in Ret's blog he said his skill/micro was horrible when he came back from his 3 year break but was still able to win a lot of games because of his macro and strategy knowledge. Of course bringing a Korean in would defiantly give us some crazy knowledge, but imo it's not that worth it and instead we should just use it to make another tournament of some sort.
But hey, just my 2 cents.
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I think that they still wouldnt take it very seriously and not give the best advice possible ~_~
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I agree with zealing. The idea sounds interesting, mainly because I'd be curious to read an analysis from one of the top 20 progamers, but you really gotta explain more how you wanna do that and what you want to achieve.
In fact, the main problem I see with this is : being the best at the game doesnt mean you're the best at describing what you're doing and how you're doing it.
What question exactly would you ask them that couldn't be answered by the top foreigners? I'm sure there are some things, but what? You see what I mean, if tomorrow we could ask Jeadong what's a good transition for 2 hatch mutas, I'm sure he'll answer something we all already know. Or we could ask him how to drastically improve muta micro, but I'm sure he'll suggest practicing UMS maps.
On the other hand, I'd love to see a progamer commenting one of his own games, or someone else's game, pointing out his errors, what's his game plan, and stuff like that, just like Nony did with his FPVods. I think that would be the best for education purpose. All that would be needed would be to ask them to record an audio of them commentating a game, then someone could translate and someone else could put subtitles on the video, and that's it.
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things will get lost in translation
and accountability. who's gonna keep each other in check? and who's gonna collect the cash before paying the editor?
i also think that most people here aren't aspiring to be progamers. they just play to have fun, but of course, part of having fun is getting better (so you don't lose all the time). when you start paying for S-class material, it's a sign that you might be crossing the line between playing "for fun" and playing "to be super good".
it'll be interesting to know some progamer secrets, but i doubt they'll let them out so easily anyways.
i think you'll have better luck getting people to pay for progamer gossip, though.
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Progamers don't get paid much because they are provided a place to live, and food to eat, etc.
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While $250 isn't chump change, you drastically underestimate the amount of work that doubling the size of liquipedia would entail...
I'm sure you've written long essays/papers for school before. Would you want to do the equivalent of 50 of those for a measly $250? I sure wouldn't. I remember writing kids' essays for $50 a pop. I'm not fond of the idea of doing essays for every kid in the class to get $250.
Even if you overlook the fact that most Koreans don't speak English... the metagame in Korea is different, and the perceived effective methods are much different. You'd be paying someone to do something that would be incredibly hard to understand and apply. A better idea would be to fund one of the top foreigners (Day[9], InC, IdrA, etc.) to make some quality submissions. Day[9]'s audio podcasts are already amazing. Wouldn't it be worth it to give him a little incentive to release more of them quicker?
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Sorry but this is a really bad idea. I'd list the reasons but everyone's done a good job of it already.
There should be a "No because I feel 250$ could be spent on much more effective things to improve the site".
I mean whats after the money is transfered whats the ensure they would even do a decent job? Hell they could write "LOL THANKS FOR 250 BUCKS SUCKERS, PEACE". They wouldn't do that of course but I'm confident they wouldn't offer their best advice because they'res no reason to.
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On August 18 2009 15:55 MoRe_mInErAls wrote:I would only pay $5 for Jaedong to edit Liquipedia, and then he'd also have to mention me in his OSL victory speech
Haha.
Fortunately, with your name, he could just about do it:
Excerpt from Lee Jaedong's OSL victory words:
- You frequently went for the economic build..
▲ I was confident in my ability to defend. As long as I had MoRe_mInErAls, I was sure that I would win.
- You won the OSL in a record time. To what do you ascribe this?
▲ Faster zerglings. Stronger mutas. More_mInErAls. [Note: Although Jaedong appeared to be admitting to hacking during this interview, his words were explained to be describing the outside appearance of his victories.]
- You have won the Golden Mouse. If you win one more OSL, your mouse will be made of platinum. What can you possibly do after that?
▲ This question is to do with the organizers of OSL. It does not have to end with platinum. There is always More_mInErAls.
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United States42270 Posts
This is a bad idea and a waste of money. Plus they don't have the english skills to fully articulate their ideas. There is already a lot of high level content on liquipedia and what marks the proscene is the metagame which isn't all that relevant at lower levels and the excellent execution which must be trained, not taught.
I wouldn't mind progamers adding to it but I don't believe their contributions are that valuable monetarily. There are better uses of the money.
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maybe just pay the top foreigners.
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United States42270 Posts
On August 18 2009 21:16 Garnet wrote:
maybe just ask the top foreigners then put the $250 in the TSL2 fund.
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This is not gonna work on so many levels, practically this is just not feasible. Wouldn't pay for it either because I'd hardly get anything out of it, I'm struggling enough with lower level stuff as it is. 
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wiki pages are always community driven and paying someone to write would seem artificial and again i doubt that someone without any inspiration and interest will produce quality content because of money.
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Hungary11276 Posts
I have little to add to the counter-arguments, and overall, I also wouldn't want this idea to happen. Mainly, it would introduce a seperation between the contributors - paid and free. What would the free ones be working for, then?
The second misconception is that regular users don't have much to add to liquipedia's strategy section. This is wrong in my opinion. You can receive a lot of insight by analyzing replays, VODs, or simply compiling knowledge from the Strategy Forums. All of this doesn't require you to be a great player - I think these resources are not sufficiently explored yet.
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honestly this is one of the worst ideas ive ever heard
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I'd rather have them edit in their own builds and why they do what they do. Like get July in here for some epic ZvP guide helping
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I'd say Idra's theoretical knowledge isn't inferior to that of top koreans.
Idra just has much worse mechanics, and bad IN-GAME awareness .
When observing, I think his logic would be on par with the best.
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On August 18 2009 15:37 Polyphasic wrote:
We could hire an S class player from Korea (preferably one that is not making much money, but is still really good and has lots of time)
Most S class korean gamers are not making that much either because they aren't old enough, or because they play too much starcraft to focus on career.
For example, JulyZerg was pretty good when he was in high school (that's why he's called JulyZerg. he only signs on during summer which starts in July.)
(remember when Mind or some other progamer fainted at a tournament because his team didn't have enough money for good nutrition).
Am I wrong to think this is a troll?
Seriously, I doubt there's any S-class gamer that is hurting for cash.
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Gosu Koreans are not Gosu in English. Waste of money
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My short response is that this is a waste of money. I don't feel like going into detail on this.
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On August 18 2009 23:39 Neivler wrote:
Gosu Koreans are not Gosu in English. Waste of money
jaedong is a+ in English get him
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Germany2762 Posts
i'd say the theoretical knowledge of top foreigners or guys like day[9] is not inferior to that of top korean players. so it's not neccessary to pay any of them to edit liquipedia.
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Too many people are rejecting the idea before having put a single thought into it.
First, who's talking about asking progamers to write in english? Come on, if there's some people willing to make transcript of every Day9 audio there is, I'm sure there would be some people willing to translate korean to english, it's been done before.
Second, wouldn't you be interested in watching a video of Fantasy commenting his last match in details agaisnt Jeadong? I would be for sure. That's where I think this idea should go, progamers audio commentaries of actually gameplay.
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We would need translators, editors, webmasters maybe, etc. etc.
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On August 19 2009 03:28 fanatacist wrote:
We would need translators, editors, webmasters maybe, etc. etc.
For the idea I'm suggesting, three people are needed : someone asking the progamer to do the audio, someone translating, someone adding subtitles on the video. Job done.
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On August 19 2009 03:30 lepape wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2009 03:28 fanatacist wrote:
We would need translators, editors, webmasters maybe, etc. etc. For the idea I'm suggesting, three people are needed : someone asking the progamer to do the audio, someone translating, someone adding subtitles on the video. Job done.
A lot of man power for a questionably little amount of money imo.
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Canada7170 Posts
I'm glad that everyone is concerned about the content in Liquipedia, however, I have always believed that the foreign community has enough knowledge to make it what we want it to be. Personally, I have seen Liquipedia as a basic strategy guide to take any player from their current skill level to C or C-. I feel that that goal must be embraced first before we look toward high level strategy and annotation. The best athlete does not make the best coach.
Most of us know that the difference between higher levels is strictly an issue of practice. Take a look at the EMP Shockwave article that is featured on the main page. I think most A and S class progamers know this information, but not the specifics. The difference between them and us is their control of the Science Vessel, and the precision of the EMP.
On August 18 2009 22:31 Aesop wrote:
I have little to add to the counter-arguments, and overall, I also wouldn't want this idea to happen. Mainly, it would introduce a seperation between the contributors - paid and free. What would the free ones be working for, then?
The second misconception is that regular users don't have much to add to liquipedia's strategy section. This is wrong in my opinion. You can receive a lot of insight by analyzing replays, VODs, or simply compiling knowledge from the Strategy Forums. All of this doesn't require you to be a great player - I think these resources are not sufficiently explored yet.
I would like to bring your attention to that second paragraph. Most of the original editors and staff on Liquipedia are D+/D/D-, with some notable exceptions. The bulk of the work was done by cgrinker, Aesop, and GHOSTCLAW. Raw determination eventually pulled them through, and although monetary rewards would most surely have sped that process up, it seems a shame for a community based project to rely on spending money from anyone's pockets.
Perhaps since there is a willingness to donate to a strategic cause, we can find another method of acquiring greater insight for Liquipedia. The feasibility of this idea just doesn't sit that well with me.
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I'd rather hire some for our own progaming team than editing liquipedia.
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It's surprising how there's already 22 people who has answered "yes". I guess that's already a potential 110 $ accumulated... or 15 $ if you consider how many might really donate 5 $.
But again, this all comes down to "what knowledge could a progamer bring to the community that anyone else couldn't?" (that would be worth 250 $) It seems the majority agrees the answer is close to nothing at all.
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EPT
