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Hello.
Hots is continuously being tweaked by Blizzard. I feel that some of the units are not gonna turn out good no matter how much tweaking is done due to fundamental design issues.
The most clear examples of what I mean are Widow mines and swarm hosts. In my eyes these two units are the result of poor game designers lack of creative ideas and imagination.
Let's take a closer look. The mine is clearly inspired by BW spider mines. Yet, the spider mine comparison is only useful to describe what the widow mine is not. The widow mine is like the spider mine, except that it is a 2 supply unit, can be relocated, is not a suicide unit, hits air, doesn't hit cloaked units, does a lot of single target damage in favor of splash damage. In many senses the direct opposite of a spider mine.
The swarm host has obvious similarities with the lurker. Again this comparison goes to show what the swarm host is not. The swarm host is like a lurker, except that it is a separate unit, it is slower and clunkier, has a much slower attack, does not do aoe damage and instead spawns free locusts.
Both units were created with the intent of providing board control. While there definitely is potential for the units to find some use, I can't help but feel that I don't have any confidence in the game designers. Blizzard's hallmark has always been creating awesome and mind blowing wonders of creativeness in the RTS genre. Now they give us a mine that is not a mine and a lurker that is not a lurker. Either design something new or make a new interesting take on an old concept. Blizzard has obviously chosen the latter with the mine and the swarm host but done a poor job of implementing the concepts.
I will make my argument clearer by taking the Widow mine in particular as an example. Going back to the basic concept of a mine one might define it something like: An simple, inexpensive and low maintenance explosive mechanical trap unit which self detonates upon enemy contact. Due to its concealed nature the detonation happens very close to the enemy unit and is thus able to inflict huge damage in an area around the enemy unit.
The spider mine implements this concept in a very direct and clean way. It functions much like a real world mine would. It controls space for a cheap price by giving the ability of having map presence in a location without sending real army units there but can still be nullified completely by an opponent equipped with detection and long range units or air units. Its spider like appearance gives it cool characteristics.
Enter the widow mine. To begin with its price and supply cost does not go well with the concept. 2 supply and 25 s build time in a factory can not be regarded as low cost and low maintenance. If all other properties were the same as a spider mine it would just be an inferior version of the same. Because of the widow mine not adhering to the low cost, low maintenance thingy its other properties has to be made better than the spider mine. Make it hit air units then ? Fine, this makes the unit "better", but what does this achieve? Concept wise it makes literally no sense. Why would a simple mine hit air units when we have advanced missile turrets for that?
Then to its damage profile. Again, the explosive nature of a mine means that they by design inflicts damage to all units near it. Aoe damage in SC language. A mine that destroys a tank while only damaging a marine standing next to the tank feels weird. A far stretch of the mine concept. Moreover, while it destroys the tank it still manages to survive itself and is able to kill another tank again after 40s.
For having the word "mine" in it, the widow mine is clearly a poor implementation of the mine concept described above. It has some potential of novel use by some unburrow and fast redeploy micro, but ultimately the widow mine has the same weakness as the spider mine. It is nullified by long range units + detection. Air units has to be a bit careful in order to not be killed though. In this case, the price and the high supply cost of the mine is a huge liability. The widow mine has now to go off on something in order to be supply and cost effective. Sure we can snipe key units in an engagement with it. But the enemy can learn to counteract this by careful engagements. And when it comes down to business the mine only has like 4 dps to a single target and potentially like 1 dps in a small radius. Compare that to the 20+ dps of a no-supply cannon,crawler or turret....
The reason spider mines still worked was that they had no supply cost. They did not affect the size of your army other than by slightly skewing your composition towards being more vulture heavy. Note that whole fields of spider mines had to be made for them to be effective. Now the unit is a real unit and you _have_ to make it count in 200/200 engagements and its low dps makes minefields ineffective.
So the fundamental problem with the widow mine is that it ends up being a 2 supply unit with high burst damage but very low dps. There is little motivation to sack 2 tanks for 3 mines when you are maxed. In most cases you want the tanks and if needed they can always be supplemented with turrets. To make it useful the supply cost has got to go completely or be reduced severely.
An alternative to the widow mine was the shredder which implemented a more general trap-unit or area control unit concept. It was sacked because the designers found it very confusing that it was turned off completely when friendly units were close. Instead of just making friendly units immune to its damage like Pfs, banelings and fungal Blizzard chose to scrap it completely. I feel that the shredder unit was far more interesting than the widow mine is. I also feel that all this is the consequence of a deeper issue. Namely that the designers of SC2 are lost and does not know what they are doing. Maybe we see poor unit designs such as widow mines and swarm hosts because it is the best they can do?
tl;dr: the widow mines and swarm hosts are complete clusterfuck implementations of the spider mine and lurker concepts. Is this because it was the best the SC2 designers could come up with?
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To answer your question, yes I believe the designers ARE lost and yes I do believe it was the best they could come up with........for the Starcraft 2 engine. Implementing the exact spider mine or lurker from BW would not fit at all with how much easier the SC2 ui is. Even since the WoL beta, people have never really stopped bringing up how much they miss the Lurker and Spider Mine and I think that's the only reason they're even attempting to implement them into SC2.
In some ways I think it's fair to say not all the blame lies on the David Kim and co, after all it's pretty clear they never intended to take sc2 down this path. I think sc2 was always meant to be more about rushes and "gambling" rather than huge sprawling macro games, but now they're forced to try and cater to the passive macro players because that is how the majority of people play the game now (for quite a long time at this point lol).
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On December 15 2012 00:41 AnomalySC2 wrote: In some ways I think it's fair to say not all the blame lies on the David Kim and co, after all it's pretty clear they never intended to take sc2 down this path. I think sc2 was always meant to be more about rushes and "gambling" rather than huge sprawling macro games, but now they're forced to try and cater to the passive macro players because that is how the majority of people play the game now (for quite a long time at this point lol).
Hahaha this is probably true.
And that is why their new units and abilities are gimmicks that emphasize risk taking.
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On December 15 2012 00:43 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 00:41 AnomalySC2 wrote: In some ways I think it's fair to say not all the blame lies on the David Kim and co, after all it's pretty clear they never intended to take sc2 down this path. I think sc2 was always meant to be more about rushes and "gambling" rather than huge sprawling macro games, but now they're forced to try and cater to the passive macro players because that is how the majority of people play the game now (for quite a long time at this point lol). Hahaha this is probably true. And that is why their new units and abilities are gimmicks that emphasize risk taking.
I agree with some of it.
But I don't think you fully understood my talk about unit concepts. I'm definitely not saying that the exact same units should be brought back, just that the current reincarnations of the mine and the lurker completely suck.
edit: making the widow mine 0.5 supply , 100 splash damage in a 2.5 radius and making it hit cloaked units but not air would already be a huge improvement.
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On December 15 2012 00:47 one-one-one wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 00:43 BronzeKnee wrote:On December 15 2012 00:41 AnomalySC2 wrote: In some ways I think it's fair to say not all the blame lies on the David Kim and co, after all it's pretty clear they never intended to take sc2 down this path. I think sc2 was always meant to be more about rushes and "gambling" rather than huge sprawling macro games, but now they're forced to try and cater to the passive macro players because that is how the majority of people play the game now (for quite a long time at this point lol). Hahaha this is probably true. And that is why their new units and abilities are gimmicks that emphasize risk taking. I agree with some of it. But I don't think you fully understood my talk about unit concepts. I'm definitely not saying that the exact same units should be brought back, just that the current reincarnations of the mine and the lurker completely suck. edit: making the widow mine 0.5 supply , 100 splash damage in a 2.5 radius and making it hit cloaked units but not air would already be a huge improvement.
Yeah I know what you were getting at, my post was more so aimed at why they can't implement the exact same BW lurker or Vulture (aka, spider mine). I think the Swarm Host is a pretty decent attempt at sneaking a Lurker into the SC2 engine, but I agree fully that the Spider Mine is meh.
I'll tell you, what I would really rather see them do is this. Take BW and give it the Quake Live treatment. Make it a free to play browser based game while updating it with an exceptional match making system like we have with SC2. Then, with HoTS they can go down the direction they always intended to go with WoL. I don't think Brood Warizing SC2 is a very good idea, just look at how WoL has progressed with this goal in mind....
This way players can choose which style they want to play. My 2 cents anyways.
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On December 15 2012 00:50 AnomalySC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 00:47 one-one-one wrote:On December 15 2012 00:43 BronzeKnee wrote:On December 15 2012 00:41 AnomalySC2 wrote: In some ways I think it's fair to say not all the blame lies on the David Kim and co, after all it's pretty clear they never intended to take sc2 down this path. I think sc2 was always meant to be more about rushes and "gambling" rather than huge sprawling macro games, but now they're forced to try and cater to the passive macro players because that is how the majority of people play the game now (for quite a long time at this point lol). Hahaha this is probably true. And that is why their new units and abilities are gimmicks that emphasize risk taking. I agree with some of it. But I don't think you fully understood my talk about unit concepts. I'm definitely not saying that the exact same units should be brought back, just that the current reincarnations of the mine and the lurker completely suck. edit: making the widow mine 0.5 supply , 100 splash damage in a 2.5 radius and making it hit cloaked units but not air would already be a huge improvement. Yeah I know what you were getting at, my post was more so aimed at why they can't implement the exact same BW lurker or Vulture (aka, spider mine). I think the Swarm Host is a pretty decent attempt at sneaking a Lurker into the SC2 engine, but I agree fully that the Spider Mine is meh. I'll tell you, what I would really rather see them do is this. Take BW and give it the Quake Live treatment. Make it a free to play browser based game while updating it with an exceptional match making system like we have with SC2. Then, with HoTS they can go down the direction they always intended to go with WoL. I don't think Brood Warizing SC2 is a very good idea, just look at how WoL has progressed with this goal in mind.... This way players can choose which style they want to play. My 2 cents anyways.
While that would be cool, it is not ever gonna happen I feel
I am not necessarily talking about making Sc2 more like Brood War for the sake of it. It is just that if you take a BW concept and reimplement it poorly you get just that: a poor implementation of a good concept. Because there were a lot of those in BW.
So either you implement an old concept in a good way or you make up something completely new. No half measures allowed.
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Well maybe pitch them some ideas, I'm sure they're open to some suggestions on how to improve or replace the Swarm Host and Spider Mine. I think it's pretty obvious they want a board control style unit, so yeah.
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On December 15 2012 01:22 AnomalySC2 wrote: Well maybe pitch them some ideas, I'm sure they're open to some suggestions on how to improve or replace the Swarm Host and Spider Mine. I think it's pretty obvious they want a board control style unit, so yeah.
I'd like to reason more about concepts, but sure.
Widow Mine:
0 supply unit that costs 50 minerals and 40 s build time. Can be reactored. Self detonates and deals 100 damage to all ground units in a 2.5 radius, can target revealed units. Can be redeployed with a 4s burrow time but not lifted in a medivac. Range 3. Any enemy unit within radius 5 will trigger the mine to target the unit with a red laser dot and a buzzing sound as a warning. This does not reveal the mine. Requires armory.
motivation: The mine can be massed, but this requires a significant mineral investment and a lot of factory production time making it hard to get a lot of mines early. Armory requirement prevents early WM abuse. Does friendly damage, so it can be used against the opponent forcing good mine placement strategies. Does significantly more aoe damage than its current implementation but removes the high single target damage . Mines provide the means of board control and its role as an harassing unit is toned down because it cannot be lifted with a medivac. The warning mechanism will be a cool effect and it gives the careful opponent a chance to avoid taking damage.
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It's really easy to be a critic, I think you should tone your language down a bit...
I also think you are looking too much into the "mine" terminology. The widow mine started off as a mine, but it's no longer a "mine" in any meaningful sense of the word.
I like where HotS is going, and I like SHs and widow mines, so... no, I don't agree with your wall of text.
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i think the swarm host is already a pretty interesting unit and has the potential to be as interesting or even more interesting than the lurker
aoe anti-infantry damage in sc2 is done by infestors, you dont really need lurkers any more (i dont disagree that it would be nice to have them, but this is true for a lot of old units...)
the widow mine however is not only completely broken now concept-wise, but also has been moving into the wrong direction with most patches.
the sad thing is that terran in hots started out with 2 of their 3 new units so completely broken that one was removed completely and the other still does not fit into the arsenal at all
the reason for this lack of ideas is the huge arsenal of terran units that wol already had if you count all the units in the campaign (including a lot of old bw units), and blizzards insistence to make completely new units for hots - there are maybe no more good ideas that have not already been turned into a unit - as can be seen with the only other new units for terran, which is basically a firebat, no matter which way you look at it
i wish blizzard would cave in and just give terrans one or more of the following units: spectre, wraith, science vessel, medic, diamondback, firebat, vulture, siege breakers (REAL tanks yeah), dropships (make medivacs slow and dropships very fast) - i would take ANY of these over any of the new ideas they came up with for hots...
also i wish that they would remove stim from marauders, now that healing from medivacs is buffed, but i realize that will never happen . this is the one important change that would make terran feel more bw-like again and promote mech play...
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OP, you complain about Blizzard having a lack of creative ideas, but then you suggest to bring the shredder (a Blizzard idea) back. These suggestion threads are so silly. You guys understand that Blizzard pays their own game designers to create units? Blizzard doesn't listen to suggestions like this. They listen to balance complaints or issues with the mechanics of the unit.
The comparison of the new units to old BW units are useless. These are units that existed in a totally different game. You also sound ridiculous when call a unit poorly designed, that is clearly going through design changes in a BETA of a game. I really wish TL would follow through with their rules and only allow pros to post suggestion threads.
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On December 15 2012 02:45 JDub wrote: It's really easy to be a critic, I think you should tone your language down a bit...
I also think you are looking too much into the "mine" terminology. The widow mine started off as a mine, but it's no longer a "mine" in any meaningful sense of the word.
I like where HotS is going, and I like SHs and widow mines, so... no, I don't agree with your wall of text.
I call things as I see them. If I think something is bad then that is what I'm gonna call it.
The problem is exactly that the Widow Mine is no longer a mine in any meaningful sense of the word. However, it is designed for board control. This is something that the designers has stressed many times. In its current design it is merely a burst damage dealer with very low dps. It is useful for some harass and board control in the early and mid stages of the game, but is largely useless in the lategame because of its low expected damage output and high supply cost. There is no point in making widow mines in the lategame, not even for board control.
What is it you like about the widow mine? What justifies its current stats and do you think that early widow mine play makes sense?
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I can't believe you actually went ahead and talked about the dps of a spider mine, no offense but that was one of the most stupid arguments I have ever heard about anything in starcraft ever. DPS doesn't correlate directly to damage dealt. Yeah the widow mine has a very low dps but that DOESN'T MATTER since fights don't last for infiniy, they usually last like 10-25 seconds. So a unit that has 10 dps will during the course of the fight assuming that it survived deal a MAXIMUM of 100-250 damage, but most of these units will die before they ever get to that point or they will not be attacking for the entire period of the battle whitch is the case for most ranged units. Burst damage is also the best kind of damage since it will instantly kill units and will render them unable to attack since they are dead. You are also way to hung up on the word mine, it isn't really a mine anymore it is more like a stealthy rocket launcher.
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On December 15 2012 02:49 ckcornflake wrote: OP, you complain about Blizzard having a lack of creative ideas, but then you suggest to bring the shredder (a Blizzard idea) back. These suggestion threads are so silly. You guys understand that Blizzard pays their own game designers to create units? Blizzard doesn't listen to suggestions like this. They listen to balance complaints or issues with the mechanics of the unit.
The comparison of the new units to old BW units are useless. These are units that existed in a totally different game. You also sound ridiculous when call a unit poorly designed, that is clearly going through design changes in a BETA of a game. I really wish TL would follow through with their rules and only allow pros to post suggestion threads.
That is a very shallow and unfair interpretation of my post. I said that the shredder concept was better than the current widow mine concept. Better is a relative statement and doesn't mean that something is good on an absolute scale. I don't get the argument that they scrapped the unit because its properties were too confusing given that the widow mine design is even more confusing. A contributing factor to my opinion is also the fact that Blizzard failed to push the shredder is an indicator of a lack of confidence in what they are doing. This suspision is strengthened by the fact that they scrapped the shredder in favor of an old concept.
I also said that if, note the if, you are going to reuse the same concepts from an old game (spidermine) , it is only OK if you provide an interesting and creative take of the concept. The widow mine concept is all over the place and I can't help but think that the ideas behind its design is to at all cost avoid any similarity with the spider mine while still calling it a "mine".
Nowhere did I say that copying old BW concepts is preferable to something else. Just that if you're gonna do it, then do it well.
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On December 15 2012 02:54 one-one-one wrote: What is it you like about the widow mine? What justifies its current stats and do you think that early widow mine play makes sense? I don't really feel qualified to answer the second question, I can just say I have enjoyed playing with and against the widow mine so far. I like how it adds to the danger of muta harass (making it so getting ovy speed and having overlords tank shots becomes important), I like how they can be used to deny expansions and give map vision like burrowed lings can for Zerg, I like how they punish careless play and reward careful play (many units out-range them and thus should not get hit by them, but in practice people don't control well and end up getting hit by the mines anyway). I have also enjoyed trying some early widow mine cheesy play in TvZ.
Those are just some thoughts off the top of my head.
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On December 15 2012 02:49 ckcornflake wrote: OP, you complain about Blizzard having a lack of creative ideas, but then you suggest to bring the shredder (a Blizzard idea) back. These suggestion threads are so silly. You guys understand that Blizzard pays their own game designers to create units? Blizzard doesn't listen to suggestions like this. They listen to balance complaints or issues with the mechanics of the unit.
The comparison of the new units to old BW units are useless. These are units that existed in a totally different game. You also sound ridiculous when call a unit poorly designed, that is clearly going through design changes in a BETA of a game. I really wish TL would follow through with their rules and only allow pros to post suggestion threads.
I agree, I wish TL would clamp down on these sorts of threads. I go blind every time I read "no matter what Blizzard does, the units in HotS will never be good because of serious design flaws". What does that even mean?! Every one of these threads just rehashing of the same old "BW units were better, here is why" that we have been reading for nearly 2 years. They are all backed up with the same, vague, overly general arguments that everyone makes because they read them on the forums. It is like the complaining about Blizzard hive mind decides to post about the same 10-15 issues about every week or so.
Lets go down the check list:
Positional play/area/board control - check Reference lurker and spider mine - check Mine must be zero supply - check Claim Blizzard has not idea what they are doing - check Provide zero evidence that Blizzard has not idea what is going on beyond saying the units are bad - check Reference BW at every point when claiming the units are bad - check Design used over 10 times in a single post - check Defenders advantage - likely to appear in a later post, but not present Removing warp in - not present, but will be referenced at some point when PvT is brought up
We have heard this all before. We would all be better off just playing HotS, rather complaning about "design".(I can't play, Im on lunch at work)
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On December 15 2012 03:09 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 02:49 ckcornflake wrote: OP, you complain about Blizzard having a lack of creative ideas, but then you suggest to bring the shredder (a Blizzard idea) back. These suggestion threads are so silly. You guys understand that Blizzard pays their own game designers to create units? Blizzard doesn't listen to suggestions like this. They listen to balance complaints or issues with the mechanics of the unit.
The comparison of the new units to old BW units are useless. These are units that existed in a totally different game. You also sound ridiculous when call a unit poorly designed, that is clearly going through design changes in a BETA of a game. I really wish TL would follow through with their rules and only allow pros to post suggestion threads.
I agree, I wish TL would clamp down on these sorts of threads. I go blind every time I read "no matter what Blizzard does, the units in HotS will never be good because of serious design flaws". What does that even mean?! Every one of these threads just rehashing of the same old "BW units were better, here is why" that we have been reading for nearly 2 years. They are all backed up with the same, vague, overly general arguments that everyone makes because they read them on the forums. It is like the complaining about Blizzard hive mind decides to post about the same 10-15 issues about every week or so. Lets go down the check list: Positional play/area/board control - check Reference lurker and spider mine - check Mine must be zero supply - check Claim Blizzard has not idea what they are doing - check Provide zero evidence that Blizzard has not idea what is going on beyond saying the units are bad - check Reference BW at every point when claiming the units are bad - check Design used over 10 times in a single post - check Defenders advantage - likely to appear in a later post, but not present Removing warp in - not present, but will be referenced at some point when PvT is brought up We have heard this all before. We would all be better off just playing HotS, rather complaning about "design".(I can't play, Im on lunch at work)
Dude, you are just ranting. Don't try to put me in a folder. Your own posts follow a very clear theme. I know this since you happen to comment in almost every thread on TL and has done so for a long time.
My post contained a very clear analysis about the widow mine and how it relates to the concept of an actual mine and why its design is bad given what it needs to be able to do in order to provide meaningful board control. Read it again together with my follow up posts and it might make more sense to you. I am not a BW elitist.
edit: apparantly you were serious when you said you went blind as the first few lines in the OP gave a clear hint to what it would be all about. I wonder why you take the time to write a reply anyways? It is clear that you didn't read my post properly. A bit arrogant, no ?
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On December 15 2012 03:14 one-one-one wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 03:09 Plansix wrote:On December 15 2012 02:49 ckcornflake wrote: OP, you complain about Blizzard having a lack of creative ideas, but then you suggest to bring the shredder (a Blizzard idea) back. These suggestion threads are so silly. You guys understand that Blizzard pays their own game designers to create units? Blizzard doesn't listen to suggestions like this. They listen to balance complaints or issues with the mechanics of the unit.
The comparison of the new units to old BW units are useless. These are units that existed in a totally different game. You also sound ridiculous when call a unit poorly designed, that is clearly going through design changes in a BETA of a game. I really wish TL would follow through with their rules and only allow pros to post suggestion threads.
I agree, I wish TL would clamp down on these sorts of threads. I go blind every time I read "no matter what Blizzard does, the units in HotS will never be good because of serious design flaws". What does that even mean?! Every one of these threads just rehashing of the same old "BW units were better, here is why" that we have been reading for nearly 2 years. They are all backed up with the same, vague, overly general arguments that everyone makes because they read them on the forums. It is like the complaining about Blizzard hive mind decides to post about the same 10-15 issues about every week or so. Lets go down the check list: Positional play/area/board control - check Reference lurker and spider mine - check Mine must be zero supply - check Claim Blizzard has not idea what they are doing - check Provide zero evidence that Blizzard has not idea what is going on beyond saying the units are bad - check Reference BW at every point when claiming the units are bad - check Design used over 10 times in a single post - check Defenders advantage - likely to appear in a later post, but not present Removing warp in - not present, but will be referenced at some point when PvT is brought up We have heard this all before. We would all be better off just playing HotS, rather complaning about "design".(I can't play, Im on lunch at work) Dude. Don't try to put me in a folder. Your own posts follow a very clear theme. I know this since you happen to comment in almost every thread on TL and has done so for a long time. My post contained a very clear analysis about the widow mine and how it relates to the concept of an actual mine and why its design is bad given what it needs to be able to do in order to provide meaningful board control. Read it again together with my follow up posts and it might make more sense to you. I am not a BW elitist.
I know you not a BW elitest. I said you are simply rehashing the same ideas that have already been brought up in other posts. The swarmhost was compaired to the lurker when it was announced. The widow mine was compaired to the spidermine instantly. The second people saw it took up 2 supply, people posted should be zero or deployed by hellions. This discussion has already been had and talked to death.
Also, all of your examples are not backed up by any replays or proof behind the claims. You claim the widow mine will be useless in the late game, but provide proof to this claim. It is all theory crafting.
And you ask to bring back the Shredder.
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On December 15 2012 03:24 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 03:14 one-one-one wrote:On December 15 2012 03:09 Plansix wrote:On December 15 2012 02:49 ckcornflake wrote: OP, you complain about Blizzard having a lack of creative ideas, but then you suggest to bring the shredder (a Blizzard idea) back. These suggestion threads are so silly. You guys understand that Blizzard pays their own game designers to create units? Blizzard doesn't listen to suggestions like this. They listen to balance complaints or issues with the mechanics of the unit.
The comparison of the new units to old BW units are useless. These are units that existed in a totally different game. You also sound ridiculous when call a unit poorly designed, that is clearly going through design changes in a BETA of a game. I really wish TL would follow through with their rules and only allow pros to post suggestion threads.
I agree, I wish TL would clamp down on these sorts of threads. I go blind every time I read "no matter what Blizzard does, the units in HotS will never be good because of serious design flaws". What does that even mean?! Every one of these threads just rehashing of the same old "BW units were better, here is why" that we have been reading for nearly 2 years. They are all backed up with the same, vague, overly general arguments that everyone makes because they read them on the forums. It is like the complaining about Blizzard hive mind decides to post about the same 10-15 issues about every week or so. Lets go down the check list: Positional play/area/board control - check Reference lurker and spider mine - check Mine must be zero supply - check Claim Blizzard has not idea what they are doing - check Provide zero evidence that Blizzard has not idea what is going on beyond saying the units are bad - check Reference BW at every point when claiming the units are bad - check Design used over 10 times in a single post - check Defenders advantage - likely to appear in a later post, but not present Removing warp in - not present, but will be referenced at some point when PvT is brought up We have heard this all before. We would all be better off just playing HotS, rather complaning about "design".(I can't play, Im on lunch at work) Dude. Don't try to put me in a folder. Your own posts follow a very clear theme. I know this since you happen to comment in almost every thread on TL and has done so for a long time. My post contained a very clear analysis about the widow mine and how it relates to the concept of an actual mine and why its design is bad given what it needs to be able to do in order to provide meaningful board control. Read it again together with my follow up posts and it might make more sense to you. I am not a BW elitist. I know you not a BW elitest. I said you are simply rehashing the same ideas that have already been brought up in other posts. The swarmhost was compaired to the lurker when it was announced. The widow mine was compaired to the spidermine instantly. The second people saw it took up 2 supply, people posted should be zero or deployed by hellions. This discussion has already been had and talked to death. Also, all of your examples are not backed up by any replays or proof behind the claims. You claim the widow mine will be useless in the late game, but provide proof to this claim. It is all theory crafting. And you ask to bring back the Shredder.
How about every professional terran trying the widow mine only to conclude its utter uselessness in the lategame? Go watch Drewbie, Avilo, Morrow or any other terran trying the mine in the lategame and listen to what they say. It is not just theorycrafting.
The same ideas are brought up time and time again. This is for a good reason. I claim it is more about the actual mine concept than any BW nostalgia. The widow mine never worked as a mine would be expected to do and the design changes have been all over the place. Of course people are going to complain. The concept of a mine is interesting and it is something that terran could need. The spidermine is a simple and clean implementation of the concept and serves as a good example and reference in the world of Starcraft. Did you read my suggested changes to the widow mine?
And finally ... I did not ask to bring back the shredder. I find it very arrogant that you don't read my posts properly and then claim I said stuff I clearly didn't say.
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Edit: Acidently posted the same thing twice.
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