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Update: There was no plan to exclude the Korean amateur scene when I made this post. I still would like to potentially give a bit back to the community that has provided me with so much entertainment. This wasn't about "foreign amateur BW" it was about "amateur BW" in general. The Korean servers still host starleagues amongst themselves and broadcast them, so they appear to not have the declination that foreign amateur BW did. I have since found that those willing to take an extremely condescending tone believe that SC2 will be the only one standing within a year. Since the OP, I have re-thought the idea of investing in BW only and have expanded to the idea of starting up something for e-sports in general.
Ok so because of threads like these:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=269390
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=268048
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=269224
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=260710
and similar threads found throughout the BW section about the death of BW and how everything is crumbling, I've decided to post a blog for discussion. Bottom line: Do you think that the amateur BW scene can be saved/invested in?
With the decline of foreign players, the mass-declination of new players fluxing into the scene, and the complete decimation of any traces of a well-managed scene, I'm starting to wonder if the total and complete end of amateur BW is nigh in the foreigner division. Here's what I see are our existing issues/blocks for new players or excitement.
-No exclusive site-support for the scene (TL is almost entirely a SC2 site now)
-No up-to-date discussions/information of new maps such as sim cities, viable strategies, and special features to note
-No up-to-date places to play that are not Korea-centric (iCCup is trying to update itself, but I wonder if its too late)
-Next to no available "top foreigner" players or Koreans who can speak sufficient English to coach.
-An astonishing lack of insightful videos or instructionals. Seriously has there been anything like the series of FPVOD instructionals Ahzz and Stylish made? If there is, please let me know because he was the last one to put anything out like that and its been literally years since those were released.
-Continued dumping of the BW scene in favor of new material.
-Lack of monetary incentive in the scene.
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That last bullet there is something I specifically want to discuss with everyone here. If we were to find money to pump into tournaments and such, do you think it could potentially give the scene "second life"? Say if there was an additional 3-4 tournaments every year with prize pools in the hundreds of $, and then 1 or 2 major tournaments with a prize pool in the tens of thousands of $ (yeah, this would mean they would have to put the TSL1 to complete shame by comparison); Do you think this could revitalize the community?
Personally I think such a maneuver might bring old pros back enough that they play both games instead of just practicing one. It also would attract the upper-crust of the Korean amateur scene (in my opinion).
What do you guys think? Any suggestions? Quite simply put, I want to save the scene, and I may be in a position to put such things together by the middle to late 2012 year. I want to know if the consensus is that it could be worth it. Also more importantly, specifically how[/b][/b] this would affect the scene.
 
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Netherlands45349 Posts
No, not really, why?Because the discrepancy in game quality between koreans and foreigners is just unreal.
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I never played Brood War. From what I have heard from all the pro's/ people from BW was that it was a small scene anyway (foreigner wise). My question is why if it wasn't that big before, would it all of sudden become big? You can pump money into anything, but if the community isn't there then it won't matter.
Also where would you "find" money...
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I made a long post on one of those threads. and I really think my idea is the easier way to rise interest in BW as a whole.
Basics are:
-Get ppl into watching BW is easier than making them good players.
-Ppl watching BW will understand how awesome this game is and will try to become good players by themselves because they now like the game.
- Make a guide for new ppl focused on the basic understanding they need to enjoy watching BW.
Here is the post:
+ Show Spoiler +On September 27 2011 00:15 00Zarathustra wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2011 23:10 ImbaTosS wrote:On September 26 2011 22:09 niteReloaded wrote:
Are you missing something? hmmmmmmm
Try broodwar's release date(too ugly for modern kids), skill ceiling (too hard for - everyone), active foreign users (can't even play for fun to start your passion) and expected earnings (-.-)... Gaah, you're still looking at it wrong. This is the problem. I have to go to a class, I'll get a proper response down once I'm back. Problem is you are being to Idealistic here. Just let me explain plz: BW is a HARD game. In order to enjoy it you need to understand it, and in order to understand it you need to have at least some basic skill. A newbie getting into BW will just get stomped hard and wont be able to develop that basic skill before he gets frustrated. So he will quit the game before he actually understands how good the game is. Why does this happens? PPL this days don't think that a "hard challenge" is the same as "fun". Most ppl just play because they like to feel they are better than somebody, (friends or online players) That is what they see as "fun" these days. And SC2 and most modern games allow you to feel that you are not only better than your friends, they also show you that you are better than a whole bunch of ppl with their ranking sistem. I mean how many #1 rank are there in sc2? THOUSANDS. Facebook games prove my point. I doesn't actually matter how shity and simple a game is. If people can look into a ranking and compare themselves with other ppl. They will feel they are better than other ppl and have "fun" Problem with BW is that no ranking can make up for the huge learning curve that it requires. As somebody said just changing your letter in ICCUP can take you months. Imagine that you are a new player with the "Im better than someone = fun" mentality. And a friend gets you into BW. You will need a lot of time before you can even take a gamer from your friend. And online ppl will just mercilessly trash you. You will quit before you understand how awesome is this game. My solution!!!!Yeah, I don't like to come up with problems and then leave them unsolved. Thats not BWish. So the problem is not changing ppls attitude. That would also be idealist. We need to be pragmatic here. So lets change our focus. How do we make ppl understand how awesome is this game before they lose interest?I have stated that we can't do this from the competitive way. So instead of trying to make them play the game with guides and coaching to make their learning faster I propose.... Lets get them to WATCH the game. Yeah that's it. Watching BW professional scene is waaaaaaaaayy better than watching SC2 pro scene. I play SC2 and BW. I like to play BW over SC2 just because I understand the game. As I said this is not the case with a newbie. The game is too complex. But watching BW requires no skill, just basic understanding. And watching BW alone can be a source of better understanding of the game. That will help ppl realize that this game is awesome and it doesn't need modern graphics to be awesome. Example: Korean girls. Don't tell me all the girls that scream at pro matches are good BW players. But they all understand the game ENOUGH to have REAL FUN watching it. If we get ppl to watch BW pro scene they will want to play the game just to have some of that REAL FUN. Their attitude will change to that of a guy that watches Kobe Bryan playing basketball and then goes to the court to play for fun. Even if he sucks at basketball. How to do this?Before SC2 beta got out. There was a project on TeamLiquid. I think it was called "Guide for new ppl to watch BW pro games" or something like that. The goal was to explain the basics of the game so that ppl will understand what they are seeing. Needless to say it was cancelled when SC2 beta came out. But we can take this project in our own hands. The basic principle is that it's easier for somebody to learn enough to enjoy watching the game then learning enough to understand the game playing it. Once they see the Pro scene they will learn to play by themselves. Or maybe they will just watch it. But that is already good for the community. More ppl watching BW pro scene should be our goals. If we are ambitious enough we can aim to get a lot of ppl and be noticed as a potential market by kespa. (Yeah lets be optimistic ok?) That way maybe even pro scene will grow larger that it already is. This is the good part: You ImbaToss can do it. You made the guide for players switching from SC2. You and the pillars of our community can get on this project and make it true. (I can help off course if you need me.) But please listen to me and lets try to get ppl into BW the easier way. BW FOREVER!!! TL:DR Awww hell no, plz ImbaToss read it all. I really put some effort writing this.
EDIT: Also Money will obviously will come to BW if the viewership, fan base and players increases. My theory:
(More viewership -> more fan base -> more players ) -> more money -> (More viewership -> more fan base - more players)
So the easier way to help BW (the least difficult if you want) is to get more ppl to watch BW pro scene in korea, that way they will understand how awesome this game is.
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I think what you would see is people who are currently playing SC2 as a professional with a background in BW would come back to win the money and then go back to playing SC2 because the money is so good right now. There just isn't staying power in BW right now and there probably won't ever be. The sort of plans to make the non-Korean BW scene a lasting force should of been put in place years ago. I'd say it's too late for that now.
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Calgary25991 Posts
Yes, if you artificially pump in money you will save the scene. I don't think it will be financially viable however - you'll basically be donating thousands (tens of thousands) of dollars a year to the BW charity. There aren't enough eyeballs on foreign BW any more to generate much advertising or sponsorship revenue.
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On September 27 2011 00:14 luckylefty wrote:
I never played Brood War. From what I have heard from all the pro's/ people from BW was that it was a small scene anyway (foreigner wise). My question is why if it wasn't that big before, would it all of sudden become big? You can pump money into anything, but if the community isn't there then it won't matter.
Also where would you "find" money...
Don't think the foreigner scene of BW was as big as the SC2 scene now, but I wouldn't really call it small. It was one of the games in WCG, had many sponsored teams that are now famous sc2 teams such as EG, and schools even had some student run classes on scbw.
I dont think having bigger monetary awards would draw people back, it would just make sure that the top foreigners nowadays dont quit. I mean unless you are a billionaire and put TONS of money in it......lol.
I play BW because I personally, in my opinion, think it is more fun, and I don't have the time or commitment or desire to try to become a pro at sc2. Many top sc1 foreigners do not like SC2 over BW but just switched for the money and fame.
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Blizzard needs to make a BW HD Remix. That would save BW.
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Foreign (especially western) Brood War was hardly "worth" investing in before SC2 beta was even out yet. It was community-driven for a long time, with TSLs being the biggest tournaments in the west for a long time, and I doubt they have been worth it from a financial standpoint.
I wouldn't say that what Brood War needs right now is money (in terms of tournaments / prize money). What it needs is more attention, people who will watch the pro games and give playing a try.
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Well from the feedback I see so far, the general consensus is that more money pumped into tournaments would not help keep the scene or revive it.
What if that money were placed into more instructionals (paying top players to give in-depth details about games while they're playing FPVOD) and advertising? I guess I'd still try to include some tournaments (otherwise what would I advertise?), but lesser scale than previously mentioned.
I'm not going to go into specifics, but let's say I'm good at all the things I do in real life and I live QUITE comfortably. That being said, I've loved BW since I was a kid and only recently found the pro scene only to have SC2 beta get released, and the scene I just discovered gets a kick in the balls with a steel-toed boot. As someone with a bit of finances to throw at whatever I want, I would look towards throwing it into this scene. Maybe not even just BW, but e-sports in general. I think e-sports could really be the next big thing that hits the world as this technological age really starts to boom.
That also being said, I'm a smart man with my investments and would like to thoroughly research my demographic of interest before placing sums into it. I figured if I started my research now, I might be in a position of knowledge to give BW community a second breath late next year (if the research proves positive).
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On September 27 2011 00:54 Talin wrote:
Foreign (especially western) Brood War was hardly "worth" investing in before SC2 beta was even out yet. It was community-driven for a long time, with TSLs being the biggest tournaments in the west for a long time, and I doubt they have been worth it from a financial standpoint.
I wouldn't say that what Brood War needs right now is money (in terms of tournaments / prize money). What it needs is more attention, people who will watch the pro games and give playing a try.
I wonder if TSL 1 and 2 were financial successes to Razer or PokerStrategy, respectively. I had the feeling that they weren't. Of course, I don't know any of the behind-the-scenes info but I would guess that Razer didn't return for TSL2 because it was financially successful, and PokerStrategy wouldn't mind sponsoring TSL2, even if it were a loss, because they could follow-up by sponsoring the huge SC2 TL tournaments that are a bit more lucrative.
And if big foreign BW tournaments weren't financially stable at the height of foreign BW popularity, there's no chance they would be now.
Anyone have any actual insight on this?
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On September 27 2011 00:20 00Zarathustra wrote:
Basics are:
-Get ppl into watching BW is easier than making them good players.
-Ppl watching BW will understand how awesome this game is and will try to become good players by themselves because they now like the game.
- Make a guide for new ppl focused on the basic understanding they need to enjoy watching BW.
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Liking the game doesnt mean that u wanna be good at it. I love tennis, American football, snooker etc etc.. but i know i will never be good at it. never. so i prefer watching it, simply because the pros are so much better. an now spending 5-10 years of my life to become an "average" player.. i simply dont have the time for it.
The same is with scbw. i love to watch some games from the top pros.. but i will never touch the game again.
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I would say that as someone who never played SC:BW that a small percentage of people who like me started with SC2 would be interested in learning to play SC:BW because I hear a lot of people describe what a cool game it is, but then when I hear you and other people rubbishing SC2 (the game I enjoy playing) and then I feel like I'm not so interested anymore.
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Unless you're putting something in excess of six digits into the scene, it won't do a damn thing. Even if you were to do that, it will only keep the existing talent there a little longer, not draw new blood, and does not address any of the much bigger issues:
There is an immediate successor to the game
That scene is much, much larger, is not declining anytime soon, and has plenty of backing from prominent groups and companies investing money as sponsors and advertisers
Throwing money at the game doesn't increase viewers of the pro game
Throwing money at it doesn't get interested in the game at all (nor would money spent on tutorials, because SC2 is shiny and new, and all the pros are there not in BW)
Because of the lack of eyes and new blood, sponsors and advertisers have no incentive to spend money in the scene
any kind of money would be a donation, not an investment, because you wouldn't see a dime and it would have little effect.
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On September 27 2011 01:47 deathly rat wrote:
I would say that as someone who never played SC:BW that a small percentage of people who like me started with SC2 would be interested in learning to play SC:BW because I hear a lot of people describe what a cool game it is, but then when I hear you and other people rubbishing SC2 (the game I enjoy playing) and then I feel like I'm not so interested anymore.
This is not relevant or helpful. This is for discussion of methods to bring renewed interest into the game from people who have a long-standing history with the community and could actually offer insight into how to draw masses (not just you) back into it. People with this kind of opinion only have it because of a lack of knowledge about BW. The things you don't like us saying about SC2 are only said because they're the truth. There's nothing offensive about it unless you don't like the truth. None of the posts above have spoken about SC2 in an aggressively ignorant manner.
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I think people just need to stop talking about saving the scene and just play the game and have fun.
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Calgary25991 Posts
On September 27 2011 01:52 Zergneedsfood wrote:
I think people just need to stop talking about saving the scene and just play the game and have fun.
Honestly, people have been talking about the scene being dead for about 5 years now. Probably longer but that's when I remember first hearing about it.
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On September 27 2011 01:51 sCCrooked wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2011 01:47 deathly rat wrote:
I would say that as someone who never played SC:BW that a small percentage of people who like me started with SC2 would be interested in learning to play SC:BW because I hear a lot of people describe what a cool game it is, but then when I hear you and other people rubbishing SC2 (the game I enjoy playing) and then I feel like I'm not so interested anymore.
This is not relevant or helpful. This is for discussion of methods to bring renewed interest into the game from people who have a long-standing history with the community and could actually offer insight into how to draw masses (not just you) back into it. People with this kind of opinion only have it because of a lack of knowledge about BW. The things you don't like us saying about SC2 are only said because they're the truth. There's nothing offensive about it unless you don't like the truth. None of the posts above have spoken about SC2 in an aggressively ignorant manner.
-Continued shunning of the BW scene. SC2 just plain has too many people who are head-strong about their precious SC2 scene to see what happened to BW community sites. They're pretty much all dead now, and everything is going to SC2.
That's some passive aggressive whiney bullshit right there.
And what he's saying absolutely should be of concern. I played BW since it came out pretty much, I still love the game, and I agree with him that I cannot stand how whiny the people who are still passionate are. It's incredibly annoying.
On September 27 2011 01:59 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2011 01:52 Zergneedsfood wrote:
I think people just need to stop talking about saving the scene and just play the game and have fun. Honestly, people have been talking about the scene being dead for about 5 years now. Probably longer but that's when I remember first hearing about it.
Yeah. It was overstated then, but clearly in decline at least for 2-3 years now. However, I'd have to imagine this is the last year or two for it
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If you enjoy watching the games your investment will produce then yes. Broodwar is a far too deep and difficult to ever appeal to the call of duty/starcraft2/halo generation of "gamers".
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On September 27 2011 01:49 Hawk wrote:
There is an immediate successor to the game
That scene is much, much larger, is not declining anytime soon, and has plenty of backing from prominent groups and companies investing money as sponsors and advertisers
Throwing money at the game doesn't increase viewers of the pro game
Throwing money at it doesn't get interested in the game at all (nor would money spent on tutorials, because SC2 is shiny and new, and all the pros are there not in BW)
Because of the lack of eyes and new blood, sponsors and advertisers have no incentive to spend money in the scene
any kind of money would be a donation, not an investment, because you wouldn't see a dime and it would have little effect.
Hmm. I've already come to the conclusion that placing money into tournaments itself will not help. I was thinking about putting money into SC2 as well but I just plain didn't like SC2. If I have no other lucrative option, I may have no choice but to opt into it for monetary reasons like everyone else.
From my understanding, BW pro scene still has a great deal of money in it from sponsors and advertisers as well. I'm wondering how they started the whole scene off. If I knew that, maybe I could kick-start some of those key elements.
I'm well aware that throwing money at it won't increase viewers but that was also never a stated intention of mine.
I'm curious how you reached the conclusion that making tutorials or updating existing databases wouldn't get anyone interested. I understood that the main block of SCBW is its difficulty curve. Not that people just look at it and think the graphics are a good enough reason not to ever play it. Is that really all it took for SC2 to blast off? A graphics change? Also how do you figure all the pros are over in SC2 and not BW? To my knowledge, almost all the top pros are still in BW and the Korean scene isn't toppling all that fast. I was actually hoping maybe to catch some of them and get them involved in this (maybe top amateurs at least).
I understand the lack of eyes and new blood preventing some potential investors, but that was the explicit purpose of this discussion blog in the first place. The last statement in that group is literally just a re-phrasing of what I already said I have come to understand as the problems that are ushering the complete wipe-out of the amateur scene.
You didn't really offer any insight as to what could be done. You just rehashed what was already stated and then basically said "give up for these reasons and switch already". This is not the information I was looking for.
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EPT
