EPTIs it worth investing in amateur BW? - Page 2
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RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
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frogmelter
United States971 Posts
On September 27 2011 02:09 sCCrooked wrote: Hmm. I've already come to the conclusion that placing money into tournaments itself will not help. I was thinking about putting money into SC2 as well but I just plain didn't like SC2. If I have no other lucrative option, I may have no choice but to opt into it for monetary reasons like everyone else. From my understanding, BW pro scene still has a great deal of money in it from sponsors and advertisers as well. I'm wondering how they started the whole scene off. If I knew that, maybe I could kick-start some of those key elements. I'm well aware that throwing money at it won't increase viewers but that was also never a stated intention of mine. I'm curious how you reached the conclusion that making tutorials or updating existing databases wouldn't get anyone interested. I understood that the main block of SCBW is its difficulty curve. Not that people just look at it and think the graphics are a good enough reason not to ever play it. Is that really all it took for SC2 to blast off? A graphics change? Also how do you figure all the pros are over in SC2 and not BW? To my knowledge, almost all the top pros are still in BW and the Korean scene isn't toppling all that fast. I was actually hoping maybe to catch some of them and get them involved in this (maybe top amateurs at least). I understand the lack of eyes and new blood preventing some potential investors, but that was the explicit purpose of this discussion blog in the first place. The last statement in that group is literally just a re-phrasing of what I already said I have come to understand as the problems that are ushering the complete wipe-out of the amateur scene. You didn't really offer any insight as to what could be done. You just rehashed what was already stated and then basically said "give up for these reasons and switch already". This is not the information I was looking for. I would say graphics is a main problem with BW, as well as the difficulty. Many of my friends have watched me play Broodwar only to dismiss it because of the graphics. The reason why there are a lot of top pros in Korea is that a) they are making good money from it and b) KeSPA did its best to make sure SC2 did not take off by banning its players from playing it. [Which is every single top pro.] In order to give the scene a "new life", I would say you would have to pay for the development of a BW with better graphics. Even this might not do it, since you would be in direct competition of SC2, as well as the difficulty in acquiring the rights from Blizzard to start such a project. | ||
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sCCrooked
Korea (South)1306 Posts
On September 27 2011 02:23 frogmelter wrote: The reason why there are a lot of top pros in Korea is that a) they are making good money from it and b) KeSPA did its best to make sure SC2 did not take off by banning its players from playing it. [Which is every single top pro.] In order to give the scene a "new life", I would say you would have to pay for the development of a BW with better graphics. Even this might not do it, since you would be in direct competition of SC2, as well as the difficulty in acquiring the rights from Blizzard to start such a project. I was unaware the top BW pros were playing competitively on SC2 at the same time they were doing the BW scene. I also agree the logistics of giving it completely new elements are probably too much to deal with (or be worth). I didn't want to join the investors of SC2 because there's just so many. It would be hard to get noticed with all the others bunched up. Also, what ARE the returns for the companies who are sponsoring SC2? Does anyone have any links to company records or statements regarding their investment return? | ||
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QuanticHawk
United States32157 Posts
Your average gamer who is interested in RTS games is going to play the one that is being played by all of his friends, is being actively promoted by the parent company and other outlets, and has a growing international professional scene that includes many big names from the previous game. Probably none of your friends, real life or internetz, play BW anymore. Blizzard doesn't promote it, big ticket events have been dropping it. The pro scene is isolated to a tiny ass country. The learning curve has always been there for BW and it was very popular for a long time. Those other issues weren't. It's pretty apparent what the hurdles are. And those hurdles dictate everything from talent jumping to SC2 to advertisers and sponsors bailing for the bigger scene. And I didn't offer a solution because there isn't one. Just take it for what it is, and enjoy it while you still have it. That's the best you can do at this point. | ||
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sCCrooked
Korea (South)1306 Posts
On September 27 2011 02:27 Hawk wrote: And I didn't offer a solution because there isn't one. Just take it for what it is, and enjoy it while you still have it. That's the best you can do at this point. Very well. I still enjoy the BW scene, maybe I'll make an SC2 team out of the old pros when they disband. I'm just trying to figure out how I can help e-sports prosper world-wide and not just in the Blizzard games either. I want kids to be able to grow up saying "I want to be a professional gamer!" and have it be a legitimate, respectable way to make a living in society. Even if only a temporary youth-oriented career, it would please me to see people have this option. I also ask you to remember that that "tiny ass country" is not only at the top % of the technologically-advanced countries in the world, but also is the birth of professional e-sports and that is where all e-sports will branch out from. It is also my birthplace and what I believe is the keystone to the success or failure of e-sports as we now know it. Also the "not being able to be noticed amongst all the mass sponsors/tournaments" thing is bothering me. Remember, you're not talking to some die-hard gamer wanting to desperately cling to a scene or a game. You're speaking with someone who is looking for a large investment opportunity. | ||
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a176
Canada6688 Posts
im quite enjoying ISL, along with many other people here, not to mention all the other myriad of tournaments in the subforum. further, by your own post, there are still many new people discovering BW all by themselves. there is no issue here. bw is past its prime and you're not going to see a TSL-level revival of the foreigner scene. but that doesn't mean you somehow stop enjoying playing the game or watching and pro-am tournaments like ISL. | ||
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sCCrooked
Korea (South)1306 Posts
On September 27 2011 02:35 a176 wrote: i dont quite understand why you felt this needs major discussing ("addressing?"). the post is far too melodramatic.. No, its really not. I was trying to see if there was any way to give the BW scene a revival so that it could turn into a lucrative option once again. I enjoy that scene more than SC2 scene, so it was naturally my first option. This isn't about me forcing the issue of saving BW, this is about me trying to make another investment amongst my others. I don't know about you guys, but when I was little I dreamt of being a professional gamer when I grew up. Sadly, the profession did not exist back then, and I am far too old now to be trying such a thing. I can, however, invest in the e-sports scene regardless of if BW is there or not. This is the main purpose of the post and why it was titled "Is it worth investing in amateur BW?". I don't know how you didn't understand this. | ||
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kainzero
United States5211 Posts
IMO, what needs to be done is that the foreigner amateur scene needs to be unified. 1: Create THE central place to play -If what you're saying is right and that iCCup sucks now, then it's a huge blow. If people are playing all over this place, it's not a good thing. The more contact that people have, the better. 2: Create very clear hierarchies to stop discouragement -Yes, non-Korean SC2 is big; but there are a number of people who are curious as to the roots of SC2 and begin to play BW. The problem is that when they start to play, they get utterly destroyed by a D player, and they really have no idea of went wrong. When they ask, they get told to practice build orders for an hour a day until they can pull it off flawlessly. That's really no fun. When new people enter the scene, they need to connect with other new people right away. They need to develop bonds (whether they're friendly or heated) and they need to get involved to be able to stay curious and stay interested. The best way to do this is to match them with other people around their skill level. BW is not an inherently difficult game; what makes it difficult is the amount of strategy that's been poured into the game over years and years. But when two people have very little knowledge of that strategy, it can't be considered difficult. It's commonly said that iCCup D+ = Masters. There are a ton of players who aren't Masters who are driving the SC2 scene. Can you imagine if SC2's ladder was simply "Master league" and "Shit league"? People would not be able to feel themselves improve, especially if Bronze players constantly matched up against Diamond players. I think having smaller steps would definitely benefit players, especially if we expect to receive a constant influx of them. 3: Tutorials/Instruction I think the TL wiki is outdated and not very organized... to some extent, I feel like the stuff available now is worse now than what was available pre-SC2, since the older stuff dried up or is harder to find. I do have a specific idea of what I would like to see, but I feel like creating such a huge strategy map would cost a significant amount of time and effort. Still, the benefits would be enormous as people would be able to create specific road plans for improvement. I think throwing money at tournaments is not the way to go. Tournaments should arise naturally by the will of the players to demonstrate their skill, instead of just being looked at as a way to get extra money. To revitalize the scene, you need to build long-term and committed interest and keep new players in. There have been a number of games that focused on a huge major tournament with no long-term plans or growth, and so their pro-scenes died out fairly quickly after that major. | ||
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QuanticHawk
United States32157 Posts
On September 27 2011 02:30 sCCrooked wrote: Very well. I still enjoy the BW scene, maybe I'll make an SC2 team out of the old pros when they disband. I'm just trying to figure out how I can help e-sports prosper world-wide and not just in the Blizzard games either. I want kids to be able to grow up saying "I want to be a professional gamer!" and have it be a legitimate, respectable way to make a living in society. Even if only a temporary youth-oriented career, it would please me to see people have this option. I also ask you to remember that that "tiny ass country" is not only at the top % of the technologically-advanced countries in the world, but also is the birth of professional e-sports and that is where all e-sports will branch out from. It is also my birthplace and what I believe is the keystone to the success or failure of e-sports as we now know it. Also the "not being able to be noticed amongst all the mass sponsors/tournaments" thing is bothering me. Remember, you're not talking to some die-hard gamer wanting to desperately cling to a scene or a game. You're speaking with someone who is looking for a large investment opportunity. Actually, I'm talking to a condescending random on the internet, who seems to be more interested in talking about how he supposedly has got lots of money to play with than anything else, and doesn't seem to have given this idea much serious thought at all but hey, do as you wish moneybags! My advice would be listen to a176 who said to enjoy the scene as is and not worry about it | ||
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duncan.mc
United States231 Posts
What we COULD improve is its accessibility. First, a more professional and dedicated webspace for English commentary of Proleague BW is necessary (some discussion started in this thread). This is NOT a suggestion to branch away completely form TL. TL, without a doubt, is still the Mecca of all things Starcraft. Would require us to completely hash out a plan and propose it the TL staff. This could be an organized BW section with English VODs that aren't either buried in BW forum posts or Sayle's stream links. Would also require dedicated volunteer casters/producers, and more. This would make BW more accessible for viewers... ...But we also need to make it more accessible for players. Right now we have to download Korean software and play on their servers, and install Korean language packs if desired or sift through similarly indistinguishable symbols to find games if you don't. We also use an antiquated matching system to find games. All this is fine to us BW junkies, but you have to admit that new people would see all this and go HELL NO. Pie-in-the-Sky thought time: if we could use ICCup servers and developed a launcher that had a matchmaking system in it similar to SC2's, do you think that would increase the number of players? I think it would go a long way in doing that and would bring BW a step closer to modern day gaming. This is obviously a much larger undertaking, but I think it at least directs attention to things we CAN change (out of game software) and not things we CAN'T (actual gameplay). Any more ideas? | ||
Chill
Calgary26003 Posts
Is it financially worth investing in amateur BW? No.Will money make amateur BW more popular? Yes.After the money stops will amateur BW immediately return to its past level of popularity? Yes.Is it worth it to you to invest in amateur BW? Only you can answer this. But the answer should be no. | ||
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00Zarathustra
Bolivia419 Posts
Before SC2 was out while TSL2 was beginning there was a project about making a guide for watching pro BW. I think you or other admin was behind this. Can you plz point me to the thread or the guy behind the project? I really think making more ppl watch BW pro scene would help to rise interest in foreign BW. | ||
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corumjhaelen
France6884 Posts
Is it worth it to you to invest in amateur BW? Only you can answer this. But the answer should be no. Do what you feel is right. | ||
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QuanticHawk
United States32157 Posts
On September 27 2011 03:35 00Zarathustra wrote: Hey Chill, maybe you remember. Before SC2 was out while TSL2 was beginning there was a project about making a guide for watching pro BW. I think you or other admin was behind this. Can you plz point me to the thread or the guy behind the project? I really think making more ppl watch BW pro scene would help to rise interest in foreign BW. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=261719 ??? | ||
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
Sponsoring a tournament yourself though is bound to be actually quite fun if you are into the game that much and you have the money and don't expect any return on it. | ||
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Armathai
1023 Posts
The primary issues regarding BW foreign growth are - lack of matchmaking - lack of regional language casts(english primary of course) of progames - lack of centralized community. TL has always been the go-to site for KOREAN bw, but in terms of foreign BW it was quite equally split with gg.net and I think making it more unified, centralized and sign-posted would be good. If Iccup or any other server could implement matchmaking into a launcher, BW would seriously see a revival. However I think the game might be too dated to create a function like that, not to mention to the coding difficulties. So instead, having a complete section dedicated to foreign BW, with Guides, Casted Vods etc would be the steps that our community can take. These are the things we can solve, but of course, it requires dedication and of course people with the knowledge. I couldn't write a guide for anything because I fucking suck at BW, but I'd be willing to help format it or do other work for someone who does have the knowledge. | ||
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00Zarathustra
Bolivia419 Posts
On September 27 2011 03:41 Hawk wrote: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=261719 ??? Why are you pointing that thread to me? I don't understand. | ||
Harem
United States11393 Posts
On September 27 2011 03:59 Armathai wrote: If Iccup or any other server could implement matchmaking into a launcher, BW would seriously see a revival. However I think the game might be too dated to create a function like that, not to mention to the coding difficulties. It already exists. However, it came out at the wrong time and far too late and promptly died. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=112245 | ||
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Chill
Calgary26003 Posts
On September 27 2011 03:35 00Zarathustra wrote: Hey Chill, maybe you remember. Before SC2 was out while TSL2 was beginning there was a project about making a guide for watching pro BW. I think you or other admin was behind this. Can you plz point me to the thread or the guy behind the project? I really think making more ppl watch BW pro scene would help to rise interest in foreign BW. I know exactly what you're talking about but I couldn't find it. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=67466 is the closest I got. | ||
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00Zarathustra
Bolivia419 Posts
I remember they made some videos about zealot micro. I will try to search in youtube and track down the account. Don't you remember who was making this guide? | ||
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