• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 22:48
CEST 04:48
KST 11:48
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: Within Reach5[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: In A Tizzy11[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Holy Diver5[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Rough Waters10[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Siren's Call8
Community News
SC4ALL: II SC2 Complete Invited Player Lineup3StarCraft II 5.0.17 PTR Patch Notes (Sept 30, 2026)64Weekly Cups (Sept 21-27): herO and ByuN double2Weekly Cups (Sep 13-20): herO scores triple3BSL Season 2313
StarCraft 2
General
StarCraft II 5.0.17 PTR Patch Notes (Sept 30, 2026) How do you feel about the mass reverts in the 5.0.17 PTR? Awesome/Confusing SC2 BM SC4ALL: II SC2 Complete Invited Player Lineup [Old] StarCraft 3 Reportedly in Development
Tourneys
Stellar Fest TWO the Moon (Dec 16-20) Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament 2026 GSTL Grand Finals Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) SC2 INu's Battles#21 [ 3-Days tournament ]
Strategy
[H] ZvP Mid-Late Game: Stalkers Collossi HT
Custom Maps
[M] (2) Sweltering Sands [M] (2) Frigid Storage
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 545 And Drops and Rifts Mutation # 544 Double Trouble Mutation # 543 Enhanced Defenses
Brood War
General
JaeDong's ASL S22 Ro. 8 Review Sagi.gg Launcher Released an AI researcher's take on the ladder bot Bot on ladder Data analysis on 8 million games
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL22] Ro8 Day 4 [ASL22] Ro8 Day 3 [ASL22] Ro8 Day 2
Strategy
Cliff Jump Revisited (1 in a 1000 strategy) Replay Review Process - What do you do? Simple Questions, Simple Answers Odyssey Mineral Stack Saturation
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread General RTS Discussion Thread Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Total Annihilation Zero
Dota 2
Dota 2 Champions League Season 3 Begins April 25! Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread Artificial Intelligence Thread
Fan Clubs
Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Diablo Animated Series on Netflix
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
[ASL22] Ro4 Day1 Ticket Giv…
bITt.mAN
Escaping Into Video Games: G…
TrAiDoS
38 yo Retired SWE loo…
PurE)Rabbit-SF
Can Bots Beat Pros?? Starcr…
namkraft
[meme] I finally understa…
LUCKY_NOOB
Regacy Esports:Our Goa…
regacyesports
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 8250 users

Addendum on Map Balance

Blogs > VGhost
Post a Reply
VGhost
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3621 Posts
March 22 2012 18:56 GMT
#1
One of the things that has always intrigued me about Brood War is the ease in which we can render results down to statistics. There is no "team effort" to account for* - or at least, not exactly the way there is in (American) football or baseball, the two sports most subjected to statistical analysis so far. Of course the game itself is hugely complicated, but the prediction - accurate or not for any given game - "Flash will beat Bisu" or "Bisu will beat Action" is not hard to make.

At any rate, I have, on and off for the past couple years, tracked results in some amount of detail; after my first two flailing efforts I was immensely surprised and gratified when Kiante contacted me and asked if I would be willing to write something after Round Three had finished. (Much to my chagrin, I did not manage to get the write-up complete before playoffs started, but it is in this week's news post - by far the least professional piece there, alas.)

However, I imagine the number one question my numbers raise is, "Where did the numbers come from?" That is what I want to attempt to answer here. First of all - which I forgot to mention - an unexpected result "swings" the number at least 4 - from +2 to -2, or maybe more. So what the number I gave represents could be broken down as a chance that the underdog (whichever race it is) will win a game: many were around 1 (positive or negative). A PvT score of -1, for example, would mean that on that map 1 out of 4 Terrans (or a little less: maybe 1 out of 5 or 6) would win as a underdog. A ZvP balance of +0.60 would mean a Zerg underdog would win about 1 out of 6+ times.

As for why those numbers? Trying to judge the actual balance of a map is difficult in all but extreme cases (and even in this case, there were fascinating ZvP results in the minor league which the necessities of making playoffs forbade the A-teams from attempting to duplicate). Another well-known example of the difficulty is Nostalgia: by pure numerical results, one of the most balance maps ever made, but the complaints extended for years and resurface with any mention of the map.

But interpreting how much of any existent balance issues is the problem with the map is difficult. In the first case, any map is used in the context of the existing game (which for Brood War is at this point fixed) and metagame (which as in any competitive endeavor is constantly shifting a little bit at a time). Furthermore, the habits of the Brood War leagues have been to cycle maps fairly quickly - probably too quickly - so that for all but those few maps which receive instant acclaim the sample size to judge their actual quality on is incredibly small - and the results, in large part, depend on the players involved. If we take a map like Battle Royal, which I mentioned above, and by some fluke Flash vs Hyuk is the only matchup played for seven games, Flash will probably win at least four, and leave us with a false impression of the map's balance, at least until we remember how godawful Hyuk is at ZvT when he is not in the OSL Round of 16 (and how that ever happened once, let alone multiple times, is one of the great mysteries of the universe - but I digress).

I want to illustrate the difficulties further by considering the map Electric Circuit, which I nominated as the best map so far of the 2011-2012 SK Planet Proleague (Season 1), in its PvT matchup.

The matchups in the regular season were as follows:

Jaehoon vs Flash
BeSt vs Light
Movie vs fantasy
Dear vs Sea
Dear vs Light
Tyson vs Leta
Bisu vs Canata
M18M vs Flash

With no research and no "context", I would favor (in order) Flash, BeSt, fantasy, Sea, Dear, Tyson, Bisu, Flash and expect a final record of 4-4. Taking Sea's slump into account, I would favor Dear in both games: 5-3. As it happened, M18M was able to pull off an upset (by any account), while Flash and fantasy won their "obviously favored" games, for a final record of 6-2.

And yet, my (current) attempt at statistical analysis suggests this map is Terran-favored. The only clear evidence I have for this is that Movie "should have" won his game (in my opinion): did he "throw it away" or did the map prevent him finishing his advantage? Add in the fact that Light, of all Terrans, with remarkably solid if uninspired play, almost beat BeSt. What my current evaluation turns on is an (over-?)reliance on individual game probabilities - and a few quirks of results along the way.

I guessed going in that the method which would most simply yield accurate results would be to base predictions on record over a previous year. The result - for this map - was that to my surprise, the three "obvious favorites" (Flash, fantasy, Flash) were in fact predicted to lose their individual games (to Jaehoon, Movie, and M18M respectively). Jaehoon going in was 12-5 over the past year against Terran; compared to Flash's 19-11, this made him numerically a favorite. There is no way to account for the fact that Jaehoon beats bad and average Terrans, while losses are mainly to the best players (say, Flash), while Flash's losses are due largely to inherent game imbalance, and are scattered sort randomly - or that half of them were from BeSt and Jangbi. A potential solution would be to use ELO in some form instead, but I do not have access to what me might call "game-time ELO" - and ELO would present the problem of underrating newer players (like Dear). For the other two: Movie is simply much better at PvT than we usually remember; M18M suffered from over-prediction due to a small sample size of games in the last year. The result is that going game-by-game, the predicted result of the 8 games was 8-0 for Protoss. When Terran won two - never mind that it was Flash and fantasy winning the games, or that Flash lost to M18M - this generated a "Terran favored" review for the map.

Which brings us back to my example above: a score of -1.00 came from "underdog" Terrans winning 2 out of 8, or 1 out of 4, games on the map. What to do about it? I am not entirely sure: it is partly a problem with my current modeling which I am going to make an effort to correct: individual predictions are clearly carrying too much weight.

However, there was an additional problem which would be corrected over a larger sample size: the fact is that Electric Circuit has so far seen either excellent TvP players (Flash and fantasy) or terrible TvP players (Light, Sea-in-slump, Leta, Canata). There have not been any "average" or "merely good" TvP Terrans on the map - not that there are many left in the current Proleague. Sea if he un-slumps; firebathero and his new-found skill; maybe TurN or Mind?

At any rate, I hope this gives the curious some further idea of the things I am looking at. One thing I want to look at incorporating is average win probability: on Electric Circuit it came out at 59% for Protoss, which would lead us to expect a 5-3 result over 8 games, and 1 off of that is clearly acceptable.

* I am not ignoring the fact that trying to predict team league results has turned out to be largely a fool's errand so far. It is probably possible, but the amount of work it would take even to narrow down which are the critical areas where we need data to evaluate is immense.

****
#4427 || I am not going to scan a ferret.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
The PiG Daily
08:00
Best Games of SC
BASILISK vs T1
Maru vs Clem
Serral vs herO
Clem vs SHIN
PiGStarcraft472
LiquipediaDiscussion
OSC
07:00
Masters Cup #151: Group B
davetesta30
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
PiGStarcraft472
WinterStarcraft450
RuFF_SC2 163
PiLiPiLi 23
StarCraft: Brood War
Shuttle 1179
White-Ra 203
Noble 56
Hyuk 49
Bale 26
Dota 2
NeuroSwarm174
LuMiX1
League of Legends
Doublelift4589
Counter-Strike
taco 661
minikerr14
Super Smash Bros
hungrybox730
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor746
Other Games
summit1g10838
Coldzera 842
JimRising 326
C9.Mang0315
ViBE68
ArmadaUGS32
Liquid`Ken5
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick784
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Main Stream75
[ Show 12 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Hupsaiya 102
• Letter145
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Lourlo485
• Stunt172
Upcoming Events
CranKy Ducklings
7h 12m
Online Event
8h 12m
FEL
13h 12m
AI Arena Tournament
14h 12m
BSL: Ladder Tournament
16h 12m
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 7h
INu's Battles
1d 9h
herO vs Classic
Percival vs Rogue
BSL Open Qualifier
1d 16h
BSL Open Qualifier
1d 16h
Replay Cast
1d 21h
[ Show More ]
Afreeca Starleague
2 days
Rush vs Light
WardiTV Weekly
2 days
Monday Night Weeklies
2 days
Afreeca Starleague
3 days
Soma vs Soulkey
INu's Battles
3 days
SHIN vs Cure
ByuN vs Zoun
PiGosaur Cup
3 days
The PondCast
5 days
INu's Battles
5 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-10-02
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Calamity Invitational

Ongoing

ASL Season 22
Super Anchor Qualifying S3
CSL 2026 AUTUMN (S22)
Acropolis #5
Acropolis #5 - GSB
Copium Cup
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual

Upcoming

Acropolis #5 - GSC
BSL Season 23
SC4ALL II: Brood War
BSL 23: Non-Korean Championship
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
Custodian Cup
eXTREMESLAND 2026
PGL Major Singapore 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 6
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
IEM Beijing 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.