• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 17:22
CEST 23:22
KST 06:22
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL20] Ro16 Preview Pt1: Ascent3Maestros of the Game: Week 1/Play-in Preview12[ASL20] Ro24 Preview Pt2: Take-Off7[ASL20] Ro24 Preview Pt1: Runway132v2 & SC: Evo Complete: Weekend Double Feature4
Community News
LiuLi Cup - September 2025 Tournaments2Weekly Cups (August 25-31): Clem's Last Straw?39Weekly Cups (Aug 18-24): herO dethrones MaxPax6Maestros of The Game—$20k event w/ live finals in Paris57Weekly Cups (Aug 11-17): MaxPax triples again!15
StarCraft 2
General
Production Quality - Maestros of the Game Vs RSL 2 #1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time Team Liquid Map Contest #21 - Presented by Monster Energy Geoff 'iNcontroL' Robinson has passed away Heaven's Balance Suggestions (roast me)
Tourneys
Maestros of The Game—$20k event w/ live finals in Paris RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series Chzzk MurlocKing SC1 vs SC2 Cup Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) LiuLi Cup - September 2025 Tournaments
Strategy
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 490 Masters of Midnight Mutation # 489 Bannable Offense Mutation # 488 What Goes Around Mutation # 487 Think Fast
Brood War
General
[ASL20] Ro16 Preview Pt1: Ascent BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ The Korean Terminology Thread Pros React To: herO's Baffling Game ASL20 General Discussion
Tourneys
[IPSL] ISPL Season 1 Winter Qualis and Info! [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Is there English video for group selection for ASL Small VOD Thread 2.0
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Muta micro map competition Fighting Spirit mining rates [G] Mineral Boosting
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread General RTS Discussion Thread Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine UK Politics Mega-thread The Games Industry And ATVI Russo-Ukrainian War Thread
Fan Clubs
The Happy Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023 2024 - 2026 Football Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread High temperatures on bridge(s)
TL Community
The Automated Ban List TeamLiquid Team Shirt On Sale
Blogs
Collective Intelligence: Tea…
TrAiDoS
A very expensive lesson on ma…
Garnet
hello world
radishsoup
Lemme tell you a thing o…
JoinTheRain
RTS Design in Hypercoven
a11
Evil Gacha Games and the…
ffswowsucks
INDEPENDIENTE LA CTM
XenOsky
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 828 users

SKPlanet Proleague R1: Map Balance and Upsets

Forum Index > BW General
Post a Reply
VGhost
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3615 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-16 16:57:20
January 01 2012 21:49 GMT
#1
I have been trying out a system for looking at map balance. These are the results after one round of play. There is not enough data yet to drown the "noise" of cheese, random screwups, and matchup coincidences, so consider this preliminary.




My method focuses on looking at players' records in a given matchup in recent games. I've attempted to limit it to games played in regular leagues in a past year, but made some allowances in order to get a reasonable number of games (≥ 10 if at all possible; not that 10 is a magic number but I had to pick one). This is mostly a problem with rookies & second year players; also EffOrt.

Based on that information I predict a win percentage between the two given players and assign a score by comparing that percentage to the actual result. As games build up, this will generate two scores for the map: an overall result score (RES), and a second indicator showing how the actual score compares to a hypothetical score if the results were the same but every game was a 50-50 matchup. I've tentatively assigned this second number the "balance" (BAL) designator, but in fact so far I am not sure which demonstrates actual balance best, if either. The combination gives a decent idea, I think.

In each matchup (PvT, TvZ, ZvT) a positive score indicates a map favoring the 1st race and a negative score indicates the map favors the second race. I also summed the absolute values to produce net scores, which represent even more loosely overall balance.

One other note is that I consider a good starting point for balance discussion the number of mirrors for each race on a given map.




THE MAPS



Chain Reaction
Mirror Bias: Zerg (5 of 9 total)
Matchups
PvT 1-1; RES -0.13, BAL -0.13
TvZ 2-0; RES 0.32, BAL -0.18
ZvP 4-3; RES 0.13, BAL -0.12
Net Results 0.58, Net Balance 0.43

Although I am really going through alphabetically, Chain Reaction allows me to talk about almost all of the features (and bugs) of the system right now. The PvT results are a nice demonstration of the problem of the small sample size. Due to the constraints of the data set, (T)BaBy's victory over (P)Wooki registers as an upset, tilting the PvT numbers to Terran. The TvZ numbers demonstrate how the system is supposed to work. Results favor Terran, but victories by BaBy and (T)Leta over SKT Zergs are no indication of balance – so the second number is weighted towards Zerg. Finally the PvZ numbers are just a string of games with no particularly surprising results – overall favoring Zerg, but with the balance figure once again indicating that Protoss is not hopeless.

We can also generate race balance guesstimates off the balance figure:

Protoss is -0.13 + 0.12 (the BAL values for or against a race) = 0.01; Terran 0.13 - 0.18 = -0.06; Zerg 0.18 - 0.12 = 0.06. This incidentally confirms the mirror results indicating the map is Z>P>T.



Electric Circuit
Mirror Bias: Zerg (5 of 8 total)
Matchups
PvT 2-2; RES -0.03, BAL -0.03
TvZ 1-4; RES -1.06, BAL -0.31
ZvP 1-2; RES -0.15, BAL 0.10
Net Results 1.24, Net Balance 0.44

Electric Circuit features both the most even matchup (PvT) and least even (TvZ) of any map so far. The PvT has featured eight good players with no notable upsets, while the TvZ has not only swung to Zerg, but every Zerg to win won as a (numerical) underdog; the only Terran to win was (T)Flash over (Z)Modesty. (The one game I question the numbers is (T)BarrackS vs (Z)ggaemo; while ggaemo's ZvT is not great, BarrackS' good "record" is mostly complied against bad competition in prelims and Dream League.)

Overall racial: Protoss -0.13, Terran -0.28, Zerg 0.41, Z>P>T (matches mirror numbers).



Ground Zero (as a Stars fan I keep typing this Ground (Z)ZerO)
Mirror Bias: Terran (3 of 4)
PvT 3-1; RES 0.40, BAL -0.10
TvZ 5-2; RES 0.64, BAL -0.11
ZvP 1-2; RES -0.40, BAL -0.15
Net Results 1.40, Net Balance 0.42

Ground Zero nicely illustrates the problem with the pure result number. In both PvT and TvZ the wins have stacked up for one race, but in neither case have there been any significant upsets, which is reflected in the balance numbers that tell you there is not much to worry about. ZvP is a different matter: both Protoss wins have been large upsets ((P)BeSt over (Z)Jaedong and (P)By.Sun over (Z)HoeJJa) indicating either racial imbalance or a lot of practice time with (P)Bisu.

Overal racial: Protoss 0.05, Terran -0.01, Zerg -0.04 (P>T>Z)

Early indications are that Ground Zero may quite likely be the best map of this year's selections.



Jade
Mirror Bias: Terran (5 of 9)
PvT 4-4; RES -0.30, BAL -0.30
TvZ 1-0; RES 0.20, BAL -0.05
ZvP 1-2; RES -0.26, BAL -0.01
Net Results 0.76, Net Balance 0.36

This map does tilt Terran, I think: other than (T)Flash over (P)Horang2, every TvP win has been at least a minor upset, culminating in (T)PianO over (P)JangBi. Not that 8 games provides a definitive answer. The single TvZ game was (T)firebathero over (Z)Action. The ZvP has been all over the place; I am not even going to try to draw a conclusion.

Overall racial: Protoss -0.29, Terran 0.25, Zerg 0.6 (T>Z>P)

This obviously needed to be said at some point: on almost every map I am looking at significantly different numbers of games in each matchup, meaning the numbers are probably not exactly analogous. I have not even begun to try to adjust for this yet, so feel free to comment but do be aware I am aware of the potential problem this represents.



Outlier
Mirror Bias: Protoss (8 of 13)
PvT none
TvZ 0-1; RES -0.19, BAL 0.06
ZvP 4-3; RES -0.04, BAL -0.29

I have to say Outlier is an aptly named map. I am not sure if the teams have even bothered to try playing a Terran on it even in practice. (T)Mind was sent and lost to (Z)Jaedong but that should not be enough to discourage people.

I feel like this is a test case for the system. Every single Zerg but one ((Z)EffOrt against (P)Bisu) has been favored; when they win they don't affect balance much, and when they lose the number tilts to the underdog Protoss. The games, on the whole, have been good.

There is little to no point computing any net results – you can work them out for yourself if you insist. The short version is: not really a good map within the current expectations of play.



Sniper Ridge
Mirror Bias: Terran (3 of 5)
PvT 4-1; RES 0.67, BAL -0.08
TvZ 3-0; RES 0.43, BAL -0.32
ZvP 3-2; RES 0.16, BAL -0.09
Net Results 1.26, Net Balance 0.49

Another map providing an interesting look into the balance discussion. The TvZ games were a series of heavily favored Terrans winning. The PvT and ZvP have been a mess of relatively closely handicapped games with a significant number of minor upsets. Sniper Ridge seems like a fairly solid map that basically no one has really figured out how to play yet, in my opinion. We'll see if this holds.

Overall racial: Protoss 0.01, Terran -0.24, Zerg 0.23 (Z>P>T)

Note that those numbers in this case seem to make very little sense whatsoever.




Obviously there's some room for improvement here. I thought I'd share the project so far with you; there's one particular adjustment I'm trying to work out formulaically which I think will significantly improve accuracy especially dealing with large numbers of "odd" results in a matchup.



UPSETS!



As part of the project, I had to handicap games. So I thought I'd share the list of "upsets" this produced. We start at 45% because we have to start somewhere but any higher than that it is not possible to make a good argument for the game being an upset.

Minor Upsets (41-45% chance of winning)
2011-11-26 (P)BeSt (41%) over (Z)Jaedong on Ground Zero
2011-11-27 (T)Reality (42%) over (P)sHy on Jade
2011-11-27 (P)Stork (44%) over (Z)ZerO on Sniper Ridge
2011-12-13 (P)Stork (43%) over (Z)by.hero on Sniper Ridge
2011-12-17 (T)TurN (42%) over (P)By.Sun on Ground Zero
2011-12-24 (P)Snow (43%) over (Z)Jaedong on Outlier
2011-12-25 (T)Bogus (43%) over (P)Bisu on Sniper Ridge
2011-12-28 (P)Stats (44%) over (T)Bogus on Sniper Ridge
2011-12-31 (P)Kal (41%) over (Z)ZerO on Chain Reaction
2012-01-01 (Z)Crazy-Hydra (44%) over (P)Stork on Chain Reaction


Significant Upsets (30-39% chance of winning)
2011-12-09 (P)By.Sun (38%) over (Z)HoeJJa on Ground Zero
2011-12-14 (P)sHy (37%) over (Z)n.Die_soO on Chain Reaction
2012-01-01 (P)Jaehoon (38%) over (Z)hyvaa on Jade


Major Upsets (<30% chance of winning)
2011-11-26* (Z)ggaemo (25%) over (T)BarrackS on Electric Circuit
2011-11-29** (T)BaBy (28%) over (P)Wooki on Chain Reaction
2011-12-25 (T)PianO (28%) over (P)JangBi on Jade

* I don't know what to make of this: BarrackS seems legitimately good at TvZ but ggaemo embarrassed him.
** While Wooki was 2-0 PvT in the previous year, BaBy's good enough that this isn't really an upset, whatever the numbers say. But it's a sweet game, so I put it in anyway.




EDIT 1 (12-01-02): Fixed game urls; now linked in dates. FYI TLPD inside URL tags invalidates the URL.
EDIT 2 (12-01-17): Adjusted game probabilities to reflect new counting method.
#4427 || I am not going to scan a ferret.
Xiphos
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Canada7507 Posts
January 01 2012 22:23 GMT
#2
thanks for the effort!

So Ground Zero is the most balanced map?
2014 - ᕙ( •̀ل͜•́) ϡ Raise your bows brood warriors! ᕙ( •̀ل͜•́) ϡ
mtn
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
729 Posts
January 01 2012 22:35 GMT
#3
We don't know yet... There was so little games played on each map... We will be able to tell which map was/ wasn't balanced after the season or at least mid season.
Crunchums
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States11144 Posts
January 01 2012 22:38 GMT
#4
I don't know how you can draw any conclusions about map balance from such a small sample size. I think player interviews / player selection choices are much more useful than the outcomes of games. Even if Best beat Jaedong on Ground Zero, was that because the map is P > Z, or is it just that Jaedong got outplayed?
brood war for life, brood war forever
Taekwon
Profile Joined May 2010
United States8155 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-01 22:44:44
January 01 2012 22:39 GMT
#5
I strongly disagree with your assessment of Jade.
I may come back and type my opinion when there are more statistically significant number of games but that's just
from my perspective and playing experience.

Other than that and your GZ portion I think these are solid.
Make sure to continue to update theses as the season continues!

Nice work.
▲ ▲ ▲
TheShimmy
Profile Joined January 2011
United States1808 Posts
January 01 2012 23:08 GMT
#6
Wow..

This is an incredible amount of dedication you've put forth here. Great job and keep updating please please.
Hyvaa #1 Fan. Gogo STX, Dear, Bogus, Classic, and Mini! Always a BW fan!
shaftofpleasure
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
Korea (North)1375 Posts
January 01 2012 23:14 GMT
#7
Outlier sucks. If they bring back Outsider, I will be overjoyed.
It's either the holes of my nose are getting smaller or my fingers are getting bigger. /// Always Rooting for the Underdog. Hyuk/Sin/Jaehoon/Juni/Hyvva/Hoejja/Canata //// Hiding in thread somewhere where BW is still in it's pure form here on TL.
Kiett
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States7639 Posts
January 01 2012 23:23 GMT
#8
Very interesting, and thanks for the hard work you put into it. Of course it's a little premature for actual conclusions, but it's never too early to set up a system that you can refine to be more accurate over time as we get more games ^^
Writer:o
sviatoslavrichter
Profile Joined January 2012
United States164 Posts
January 02 2012 07:35 GMT
#9
Great job. There are two things you can do to make this analysis more interesting:

1) Go heavier on the stats analysis. You should look at TableSim--it's a pretty good app for doing small sample analysis.

2) Start looking at the games qualitatively. There are probably a couple of B- or A- level iCCup players that can help you with this--the central question you need to ask is "how does the map influence the playstyle/choices of the players playing it? does it unlock additional options, or constrain them more tightly?" Be aware that in this regard, the possibility of 1-time snipe builds and lots of advanced coaching will be required.
It is easy to lead a successful life, but hard to lead a meaningful one.
sheaRZerg
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States613 Posts
January 02 2012 08:35 GMT
#10
Interesting. I feel like it is trying to take into account the records may be difficult to do rigorously. And I suspect the uncertainty with less than 5 games per matchup would be huge (though im not even sure how you would calculate that given your method).

It will be interesting to see how this compares down the line when there is much better sample size.
"Dude, just don't listen to what I say; listen to what I mean." -Sean Plott
Ikonn
Profile Joined October 2009
Netherlands1958 Posts
January 02 2012 08:56 GMT
#11
ggaemo beating Barracks isn't really an upset, he beat him last season too, is more experienced and has posted better results recently
OopsOopsBaby
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Singapore3425 Posts
January 02 2012 10:24 GMT
#12
i think spawn position on ground zero is a factor you might want to explore. especially the ease of expanding towards the opponent's main.
s3x2-2 xiao3x2+2 bone3+2+2
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
BSL Team Wars
19:00
Round 6
Team Hawk vs Team Sziky
LiquipediaDiscussion
Maestros of the Game
17:00
Group Stage - Group D
Lambo vs herO
Maru vs TBD
ComeBackTV 1100
CranKy Ducklings682
IndyStarCraft 267
BRAT_OK 141
CosmosSc2 101
EnkiAlexander 97
Rex68
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
IndyStarCraft 282
BRAT_OK 141
CosmosSc2 105
JuggernautJason80
Rex 68
StarCraft: Brood War
sas.Sziky 44
sSak 41
yabsab 25
NaDa 8
Dota 2
The International89336
Gorgc16723
Dendi586
monkeys_forever37
KheZu0
League of Legends
JimRising 536
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K429
kRYSTAL_17
Super Smash Bros
C9.Mang02203
Mew2King93
Other Games
summit1g4597
Grubby3513
FrodaN1897
fl0m897
Hui .115
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick2678
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 20 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• musti20045 77
• Adnapsc2 6
• intothetv
• IndyKCrew
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Migwel
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Kozan
StarCraft: Brood War
• blackmanpl 21
• Azhi_Dahaki19
• FirePhoenix7
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 1861
• masondota21086
League of Legends
• Doublelift6712
Other Games
• imaqtpie1618
• Shiphtur197
Upcoming Events
Sparkling Tuna Cup
12h 38m
Afreeca Starleague
12h 38m
Soulkey vs Barracks
EffOrt vs Rush
Monday Night Weeklies
18h 38m
Afreeca Starleague
1d 12h
BeSt vs Alone
Queen vs Bisu
The PondCast
3 days
RSL Revival
3 days
Cure vs SHIN
Reynor vs Zoun
RSL Revival
4 days
Classic vs TriGGeR
ByuN vs Maru
Online Event
4 days
BSL Team Wars
4 days
Team Bonyth vs Team Dewalt
BSL Team Wars
4 days
[ Show More ]
RSL Revival
5 days
Maestros of the Game
5 days
Cosmonarchy
5 days
Bonyth vs Dewalt
[BSL 2025] Weekly
5 days
RSL Revival
6 days
Maestros of the Game
6 days
BSL Team Wars
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Ultimate Battle Special: Larva vs Mini
SEL Season 2 Championship
HCC Europe

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
BSL 20 Team Wars
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 3
BSL 21: BSL Points
ASL Season 20
CSL 2025 AUTUMN (S18)
LASL Season 20
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
Chzzk MurlocKing SC1 vs SC2 Cup #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1

Upcoming

2025 Chongqing Offline CUP
BSL Polish World Championship 2025
BSL Season 21
BSL 21 Team A
EC S1
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
MESA Nomadic Masters Fall
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.