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^ Yeah
Gosugamers - Where shit happens, just move on.
"Best Non-Korean of the Year". Manner was not a part of the title or the criteria, which makes this award completely irrelevent for anyone with half a brain.
Sure this is gosugamers own award, so they can choose their rules without announcing them or anything, but that doesn't mean that just because its gosugamers doing the award that it somehow legitimizes it when they exclude players not because of skill but because of their attitude.
They state that they're trying to make e-sport more professional by doing this, but they're doing the opposite when they account for their personal relationship with a player when they're awarding the best player of the year.
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they should've just let it go, invite Idra to Dreamhack and when he's there tell him he can't play because he's banned from gg.net. I seriously can't believe how many people are defending Idra here when it's so clear he did it just to screw someone else' hard work.
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On January 04 2011 01:16 Senx wrote:
^ Yeah
Gosugamers - Where shit happens, just move on.
"Best Non-Korean of the Year". Manner was not a part of the title or the criteria, which makes this award completely irrelevent for anyone with half a brain.
Sure this is gosugamers own award, so they can choose their rules without announcing them or anything, but that doesn't mean that just because its gosugamers doing the award that it somehow legitimizes it when they exclude players not because of skill but because of their attitude.
They state that they're trying to make e-sport more professional by doing this, but they're doing the opposite when they account for their personal relationship with a player when they're awarding the best player of the year.
Agreed, this is exactly how I feel. Obviously they can do whatever they want since its their award, but to me it ruins the professionalism and legitimacy of the award to not only exclude a top player and top candidate for the award, but to do so out of an irrelevant personal vendetta.
On January 04 2011 01:22 ondik wrote:
they should've just let it go, invite Idra to Dreamhack and when he's there tell him he can't play because he's banned from gg.net. I seriously can't believe how many people are defending Idra here when it's so clear he did it just to screw someone else' hard work.
Congrats, you'd have to have quite a massive ego (or just a smaller number of brain cells) to post something this stupid and make such a ridiculous statement with almost no facts or knowledge to back it up.
I just realized how stupid all of this is though. I mean really, does this award actually matter in the slightest?
User was warned for this post
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ondik, I believe IdrA was transplanting TL values onto gg.net. IdrA has been warned in the past that if he were to be permanently banned as a poster, he'd be barred from TL run tournaments. Doubtless it follows that being banned from gg.net should stop him participating in their holiday special. I think it's much more speculative to say he was being underhanded.
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Yeah I agree with a lot of other people in this thread in saying that gg.net shot themselves in the foot here. The reason they made it out to be is somewhat petty in my opinion. It could've been acceptable if one of the criteria was manners, but the criteria are mainly achievements and skill, which is the normal association anyways.
It just baffles me that they did the awards like this. The award doesn't really matter anyways and would be forgotten in a week or two, but they still made something like this to question their credibility as an objective SC news site. Kinda ironic in that sense.
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[B]On January 04 2011 01:28 SubtleArt Show nested quote +On January 04 2011 01:22 ondik wrote:
they should've just let it go, invite Idra to Dreamhack and when he's there tell him he can't play because he's banned from gg.net. I seriously can't believe how many people are defending Idra here when it's so clear he did it just to screw someone else' hard work. Congrats, you'd have to have quite a massive ego (or just a smaller number of brain cells) to post something this stupid and make such a ridiculous statement with almost no facts or knowledge to back it up.
The fuck are you talking about? Did you even read idra's statement nazgul posted on first page? Do you know his history ar gg.net? How can you even doubt he didn't do it on purpouse?
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I see a number of coherence issues with the statements of people here, even though the aim of this very blog was to vent disappointment/anger over the way these issues have taken form in the original thread and to help get them cleared up.
Look, people, first off gg.net apparently holds this or similar awards every year and it's not just their award and their rules, these rules also supposedly aren't anything new and not something they came up with because of IdrA.
It's also not like they excluded him because they don't like him or have a grudge with him, but because he's got a history of disrespect towards other people, users at gg.net and staff at gg.net and then casually without remorse cancelled his participation from their event. Anyone who calls gg.net unprofessional over that and not IdrA has awareness issues.
On top of that it's people on TL and people visiting gg.net that had a hard time of just letting it go. The gg.net staff was obviously content with their decision even though they'd have liked to include IdrA in the poll (as well as many other individuals, but you have to bring it down to a number you can work with).
On top of that TL staffers have been among the people criticising gg.net in a less than commendable manner.
I say all of that as someone who used to be a huge IdrA fan even before MicroMedia was formed, because I liked that he argued for what makes sense and didn't pay homage to people's feelings. He was an active user of the gg.net site and argued with people frequently. Looking back, his penalty record is a reflection of that, but I have stopped using that site a long time ago and have no idea what he got those for. Remember Greg Fields saying that he wanted to become a theoretical physicist but decided in favour of progaming then? Theoretical physics because it is precise, there is no room for conflict. Everything can be solved absolutely crystal clear. Hearing that (it was mentioned in a relatively recent interview) made perfect sense after remembering what I respected his activity for. Unfortunately IdrA has an equal disrespect towards anyone he sees as unworthy and doesn't hesitate to express that on almost every opportunity he gets. Doing it to the gg.net staff again was just crossing the line for them, and TL would do the same thing and actually does do the same thing every day - the amount of people being banned from this site for stupidity or lack of civility is simply amazing.
So please, if you criticise something then follow through with it. Otherwise your opinion...just doesn't have any merit. Hypocrisy, emotional decisions, inconsistence, incoherence, arrogance/pride are all enemies of reason.
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On January 04 2011 02:25 enzym wrote:
Look, people, first off gg.net apparently holds this or similar awards every year and it's not just their award and their rules, these rules also supposedly aren't anything new and not something they came up with because of IdrA.
It's also not like they excluded him because they don't like him or have a grudge with him, but because he's got a history of disrespect towards other people, users at gg.net and staff at gg.net and then casually without remorse cancelled his participation from their event. Anyone who calls gg.net unprofessional over that and not IdrA has awareness issues.
On top of that it's people on TL and people visiting gg.net that had a hard time of just letting it go. The gg.net staff was obviously content with their decision even though they'd have liked to include IdrA in the poll (as well as many other individuals, but you have to bring it down to a number you can work with).
On top of that TL staffers have been among the people criticising gg.net in a less than commendable manner.
That may be, but it just seems contradictory to the news post itself. There aren't any remarks about sportsmanship or manners in the descriptions of the nominees or anywhere in that news post. If it was something that was already considered granted, I can understand the omission.
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On January 04 2011 02:25 enzym wrote:
Look, people, first off gg.net apparently holds this or similar awards every year and it's not just their award and their rules, these rules also supposedly aren't anything new and not something they came up with because of IdrA.
It's also not like they excluded him because they don't like him or have a grudge with him, but because he's got a history of disrespect towards other people, users at gg.net and staff at gg.net and then casually without remorse cancelled his participation from their event. Anyone who calls gg.net unprofessional over that and not IdrA has awareness issues.
On top of that it's people on TL and people visiting gg.net that had a hard time of just letting it go. The gg.net staff was obviously content with their decision even though they'd have liked to include IdrA in the poll (as well as many other individuals, but you have to bring it down to a number you can work with).
On top of that TL staffers have been among the people criticising gg.net in a less than commendable manner.
I say all of that as someone who used to be a huge IdrA fan even before MicroMedia was formed, because I liked that he argued for what makes sense and didn't pay homage to people's feelings. He was an active user of the gg.net site and argued with people frequently. Looking back, his penalty record is a reflection of that, but I have stopped using that site a long time ago and have no idea what he got those for. Remember Greg Fields saying that he wanted to become a theoretical physicist but decided in favour of progaming then? Theoretical physics because it is precise, there is no room for conflict. Everything can be solved absolutely crystal clear. Hearing that (it was mentioned in a relatively recent interview) made perfect sense after remembering what I respected his activity for. Unfortunately IdrA has an equal disrespect towards anyone he sees as unworthy and doesn't hesitate to express that on almost every opportunity he gets. Doing it to the gg.net staff again was just crossing the line for them, and TL would do the same thing and actually does do the same thing every day - the amount of people being banned from this site for stupidity or lack of civility is simply amazing.
So please, if you criticise something then follow through with it. Otherwise your opinion...just doesn't have any merit. Hypocrisy, emotional decisions, inconsistence, incoherence, arrogance/pride are all enemies of reason.
I dont think anyone argues that Idra isn't unprofessional because he's a dick to people and organisations, thats not even the topic of the discussion. We're calling gosugamers unprofessional because they exclude Idra from a poll where the goal is to crown the best player of the year, not the most manner guy whos also done decent-player of the year.
And I dont understand how you can say that they didn't exclude him because they didnt like him when you then go on to say he has disrespected people at gg.net, thats kind of a foundation of dislike isnt it?
And no I really don't believe that TL.net would exclude players from a BEST OF 2010 AWARDs poll because of their personal vendettas with x player. Atleast they wouldn't name the poll that and then just exclude a certain player despite his achievements.
I don't mind that they have their own awards, but don't expect people to not express their opinions on a poll that is based on personal relationships instead of achievements.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Perhaps the TL staff (kennigit, zelniq, myself) could have conducted ourselves better in the topic, no in fact we should have conducted ourselves better in the topic. But the whole situation was so ludicrous that were left thinking "are they actually serious?" and we got caught up in the whole emotional drama of the event. So yeah, not TL's brightest day. Such a lapse in professionalism shouldn't happen, for that we apologise and it won't happen again.
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On January 04 2011 02:56 Senx wrote:
We're calling gosugamers unprofessional because they exclude Idra from a poll where the goal is to crown the best player of the year, not the most manner guy whos also done decent-player of the year.
[...]
And no I really don't believe that TL.net would exclude players from a BEST OF 2010 AWARDs poll because of their personal vendettas with x player. Atleast they wouldn't name the poll that and then just exclude a certain player despite his achievements. Again, these awards are held every year and the rules supposedly aren't newly put in place just to be able to exclude IdrA. Maybe it's a misnomer, but then it has been a misnomer for years on end and it'd be a bit strange to come out now and start attacking them for it.
And I dont understand how you can say that they didn't exclude him because they didnt like him when you then go on to say he has disrespected people at gg.net, thats kind of a foundation of dislike isnt it?
No. It's called breaking the rules.
I don't mind that they have their own awards, but don't expect people to not express their opinions on a poll that is based on personal relationships instead of achievements. I don't. In fact I only expect people to form their opinions based on reality, or to be blatantly honest I do not even expect that anymore. Long exposure to humanity with a lot of time to think about things does things like that.
Yo, Plexa. I'm not holding it against you to the point of it requiring an apology - everybody acts in not so thoughtful ways some of the time, and Nazgul saved the rest. It should not be such an important issue. I can't speak for the others, but what bothered me was only the flood of badly informed, hypocritical hate. Criticism itself is good. Without it no problems can ever get solved. But it should at least be based on something, and that something shouldn't be fantasy. -_-
(I feel somewhat guilty and as though I am part of the motivator for you to post that, even though I only responded to the issue because people were blindly attacking one side but failing to look at the other)
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Well whats the reason to vote if the best player is not on the list ?
After all its about the BEST foreigner and not the most mannered one
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People should stop looking at extremes. The poll was not meant to be JUST about game skill. Whilst this was the most important thing, there are factors that can exclude you from participating, such as exceptionally poor mannerism for example. I've had my fair share of IdrA hate handed to me myself, but what he was banned for at the time wasn't because of spite but because of actions he had committed. If you look at the about page of GosuGamers, it states "We believe that in electronical gaming, as in any sport, fair-play, sportsmanship, respect, and good manners are important. Further establishing these values in the online gaming community is the vision of GosuGamers." Possibly horrid analogy: An athlete that uses doping could be the best athlete in the world, but that doesn't mean he is qualified for the poll. There are rules to adhere to, and IdrA broke one to be eligible for this one.
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Osaka27139 Posts
On January 04 2011 00:19 enzym wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2011 23:34 Zerokaiser wrote:
I don't think it really matters anymore. The news got out and ran it's course; few people are going to take this poll as anything more than a European popularity contest.
It's negative publicity for putting personal opinion above objectivity.
What this does is start to cement GosuGamers as *not* being a Starcraft "authority" or hub like Team Liquid, at least in my mind. GosuGamers is being shown more and more to be unprofessional both as its members and as an organization.
I read the replies of teamliquid staffers in the related thread and came to the opposite conclusion. Teamliquid is pretty much uncontested, but that makes it even more despicable to kick the one that is already weaker than you, especially without considering the reasons for his "misbehaviour" fairly. Really only Nazgul hitting the breaks there.
My sentiments exactly.
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I don't know anything about the incident, but I liked your point about the 'waiting to speak' thing. It's one of the biggest things forums suffer from.
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Extrapolation and speculation from limited facts is a toxic venom.
I hope that this scandal doesn't grow any more than it already has. I actually like quite a few features on GosuGamers, and it would be a shame if all this negative publicity snowballs into their unfortunate demise.
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On January 03 2011 21:52 LittLeD wrote:
Im glad they excluded IdrA. Just throughing that out there
I'm sure your opinion matters a lot. Just throughing it out there.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On January 04 2011 03:50 enzym wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2011 02:56 Senx wrote:
We're calling gosugamers unprofessional because they exclude Idra from a poll where the goal is to crown the best player of the year, not the most manner guy whos also done decent-player of the year.
[...]
And no I really don't believe that TL.net would exclude players from a BEST OF 2010 AWARDs poll because of their personal vendettas with x player. Atleast they wouldn't name the poll that and then just exclude a certain player despite his achievements. Again, these awards are held every year and the rules supposedly aren't newly put in place just to be able to exclude IdrA. Maybe it's a misnomer, but then it has been a misnomer for years on end and it'd be a bit strange to come out now and start attacking them for it. Show nested quote +And I dont understand how you can say that they didn't exclude him because they didnt like him when you then go on to say he has disrespected people at gg.net, thats kind of a foundation of dislike isnt it? No. It's called breaking the rules. Show nested quote +I don't mind that they have their own awards, but don't expect people to not express their opinions on a poll that is based on personal relationships instead of achievements. I don't. In fact I only expect people to form their opinions based on reality, or to be blatantly honest I do not even expect that anymore. Long exposure to humanity with a lot of time to think about things does things like that. Yo, Plexa. I'm not holding it against you to the point of it requiring an apology - everybody acts in not so thoughtful ways some of the time, and Nazgul saved the rest. It should not be such an important issue. I can't speak for the others, but what bothered me was only the flood of badly informed, hypocritical hate. Criticism itself is good. Without it no problems can ever get solved. But it should at least be based on something, and that something shouldn't be fantasy. -_- (I feel somewhat guilty and as though I am part of the motivator for you to post that, even though I only responded to the issue because people were blindly attacking one side but failing to look at the other)
No the apology is definitely warranted. We were out of line and the community deserves better than that.
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ya, it really does
User was temp banned for this post.
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I'm trying desperately to figure out what the actual problem is here. It sounds like everyone's bitching at everyone for something but the core problem is that gg.net is butthurt about Idra not wanting to play for a community he isn't actually a part of?
Forgive me if I'm wrong, this thread is a pile of convoluted responses and the OP isn't exactly straightforward.
In this case it's pretty obvious that gg.net put drama over professionalism, regardless of how professional/unprofessional Idra acted, and that people have every right to complain/discuss that. How that makes TL look if the discussion occurs on its boards - perhaps a little elite, but that's better than banning the discussion.
I'm glad Plexa has acknowledged an error on their part. Too often admins/mods don't have the balls to do that. It says to me that the TL staff holds the community higher than personal image, and that's truly professional.
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EPT
