Quick Japanese language question

Igakusei

United States610 Posts

June 17 2009 20:39 GMT

trying to self-study some japanese to get out of my school's language requirement without taking the class, and I have a quick question about frequency adverbs:

Are these both appropriate ways to say "I often read books?"

watashiwa hon o yoku yomimasu
watashiwa yoku hon o yomimasu

If so, is one more natural sounding? Basically I'm wondering if it's okay to stick the adverb anywhere in the sentence.

Also since I'm here, yoku can mean either often or well (as in yoku hanasemasu, or can speak well). Is context your only clue to differentiate these two rather different meanings?

allluckysevens7777

United States53 Posts

June 17 2009 20:49 GMT

Both work fine, I'm pretty sure. My professor tended to use the second form fwiw. Never said anything explicitly though.
As for the often/well, I think you're correct there as well.

VIB

Brazil3567 Posts

June 17 2009 20:54 GMT

What a coincidence, I just learned yoku last class. In my book they always use the first form and so does my sensei. I also didn't know yoku could also mean "well". I'll ask my sensei when he comes online on msn ^^

EchOne

United States2906 Posts

June 17 2009 20:58 GMT

Both ways work. Good luck learning Japanese, I'm sure you won't regret it.

Shauni

4077 Posts

June 17 2009 20:58 GMT

'watashi wa yoku hon o yomimasu' sounds more natural to me, it was how we wrote it in class at least (although there is nothing wrong with either of them grammatically). And I think yoku is more common for often than well in most contexts (at least there's a lot of other alternatives for saying well).

Cambium

United States16368 Posts

June 17 2009 21:13 GMT

First way is definitely more common.

You'll soon find out that the Japanese language depends heavily on context, which can be annoying at times.

Ecael

United States6703 Posts

June 17 2009 21:27 GMT

Technically speaking you can distinguish between the meanings of yoku by the kanji used, but very rarely do people pay attention to that or make the kanji transformation in the first place, so context is the easiest way. First is more common simply because it is clearer, but both are fine.

Tbird

Canada42 Posts

June 17 2009 21:32 GMT

Both ways work fine, although I tend to use the first one. Because Japanese is a particle marked language, sentence structure is largely variable. And yes, yoku means both often and well, and you have to decide from context. Good luck!

Igakusei

United States610 Posts

June 17 2009 22:07 GMT

Thanks for the replies everyone!

My book tends to use the second form as well (torrented the genki elementary books), but I've been listening to pimsleur and they seem to prefer the first form.. which also seems more clear to me.

Trying to memorize kanji too. I'm at 40 now, but they're quickly becoming very complicated. I need a pen pal

Ecael

United States6703 Posts

June 17 2009 22:20 GMT

#10

Well, it is best if you don't start trying to divide it into forms right away, for example, 私はよく本屋で本を読む is more common than 私は本屋で本をよく読む. It really depends on the clarity imo, the location of the よく changes depending on what other things might be in the sentence to a place where the meaning would be the least ambiguous.

EDIT - Actually that's kind of a bad example since the location of よく was made to make meaning more obvious, not quite the same as "clearer".

Cambium

United States16368 Posts

June 17 2009 22:28 GMT

#11

良く= better
よく= often

Cambium

United States16368 Posts

June 17 2009 22:31 GMT

#12

On June 18 2009 07:20 Ecael wrote:
Well, it is best if you don't start trying to divide it into forms right away, for example, 私はよく本屋で本を読む is more common than 私は本屋で本をよく読む. It really depends on the clarity imo, the location of the よく changes depending on what other things might be in the sentence to a place where the meaning would be the least ambiguous.

EDIT - Actually that's kind of a bad example since the location of よく was made to make meaning more obvious, not quite the same as "clearer".

Actually, I think there's a slight difference between the two sentences you gave:

I often go to a book store to read books (where "go to" is implied), versus
When I'm at a book store, I often read books (where "when I'm at" is implied).

That's at least how I interpret those two sentences.

Ecael

United States6703 Posts

June 17 2009 22:41 GMT

#13

How often do people actually kanji change into 良く outside of some sort of printed literature anyway.

Well, if you want to say "when I am at a bookstore", that's a conditional, in which case you'd say 私は本屋にいったら時によく[そこに]本を読む instead of 私は本屋で本をよく読む. The meaning of the two that I gave does differ slightly, that's why I added in the edit about how in those two the former is clearer about the intended meaning. The point is more that as we elongate the sentences and add in more implications, the よく can change locations too. Or rather, as the よく change location, the implication can change like you said, it is hard to pin it down to a form more used.

VIB

Brazil3567 Posts

June 17 2009 22:55 GMT

#14

I just asked my sensei and he told me that "watashiwa hon o yoku yomimasu" can mean both frequently and well. But "watashiwa yoku hon o yomimasu" can only mean frequently. So he uses that second form when he wants to be specific about frequency.

Oh well... I guess that whatever is fine ><

konadora

Singapore66357 Posts

June 18 2009 01:12 GMT

#15

First sentence.

onihunter

United States515 Posts

June 18 2009 02:14 GMT

#16

Both are fine.

KurtistheTurtle

United States1966 Posts

June 18 2009 02:53 GMT

#17

Both are good, but the first way would make better sense to a Japanese ear.

konadora

Singapore66357 Posts

June 18 2009 03:16 GMT

#18

On June 18 2009 11:14 onihunter wrote:
Both are fine.

Second one is barely used because the way the sentence is phrased is slightly off

Ecael

United States6703 Posts

June 18 2009 03:20 GMT

#19

On June 18 2009 12:16 konadora wrote:

Show nested quote +

Second one is barely used because the way the sentence is phrased is slightly off

In print maybe, with speech there are plenty of ways for you to pause and indicate what it means.

konadora

Singapore66357 Posts

June 18 2009 03:33 GMT

#20

It just sounds slightly off, there's nothing wrong with the meaning

gamecrazy

United States421 Posts

June 18 2009 03:34 GMT

#21

This grammar structure is quite interchangeable. You can move yoku around. But, for 私は本をよく読みます。could be interpreted as 私は本を良く読みます。 For a Japanese person, the yoku in the 1st sentence could be interpreted as meaning well or often. So in the case of 私は本をよく読みます, it would depend on context. But, this isn't a problem for a Japanese listener, because the surrounding sentences would easily allow them to tell if you meant well or often because you'd be talking about how much you've read or how well you understand everything you have read.

The second structure, 私はよく本を読みます。, could mean "I read good books" or "I often read books". It's another context issue.

I would also recommend the first form, but they're not all that different.

Ecael

United States6703 Posts

June 18 2009 03:46 GMT

#22

On June 18 2009 12:34 gamecrazy67 wrote:
This grammar structure is quite interchangeable. You can move yoku around. But, for 私は本をよく読みます。could be interpreted as 私は本を良く読みます。 For a Japanese person, the yoku in the 1st sentence could be interpreted as meaning well or often. So in the case of 私は本をよく読みます, it would depend on context. But, this isn't a problem for a Japanese listener, because the surrounding sentences would easily allow them to tell if you meant well or often because you'd be talking about how much you've read or how well you understand everything you have read.

The second structure, 私はよく本を読みます。, could mean "I read good books" or "I often read books". It's another context issue.

I would also recommend the first form, but they're not all that different.

No, the second structure can only indicate that you often read books, the context doesn't even matter, you can't use よく to modify a noun.

On June 18 2009 12:33 konadora wrote:
It just sounds slightly off, there's nothing wrong with the meaning

Yeah I know what you mean, but when you just try to say it a few times you naturally pause at places and start inserting like さ lol

So no fek

United States3001 Posts

October 04 2009 15:39 GMT

#23

Bumping this thread instead of creating my own, since the subject is actually really close to what I'm curious about. I'm taking a Japanese and think I'm doing much better than I did in high school (since I'm, you know, actually studying and all), but I'm still a bit unclear on a few things.

For clarification, the frequency adverb (yoku in this case) can either be inserted before before the subject or after the subject particle, right? I've seen it done both ways, and I'm just trying to make sure that once a sentence gets a bit more complicated, it doesn't move around at all.

My second question is about what particle to use for a sentence.

The sentence is:
Tanaka-san wa, konban _ kuji _ telebi _ memasu.

With the underscores being particle placement (on the homework). I currently have no particle for the first, as I'm pretty sure it's not needed for words such as konban. I have o for the third, but I'm unsure of the second. I had to look up kuji as I haven't seen it in my book, and it means lottery if I'm not mistaken. So I'd assume that it would be de since the lottery is taking place on tv. I'm just a little unsure because all of my notes indicate that place it's being held comes before the subject (toshokan de eiga, Kyouto de matsuri, etc).

So would de be the right particle, or did I space on something entirely?

Thanks for the help, and sorry for bumping the thread. >_>

Funnytoss

Taiwan1471 Posts

October 04 2009 17:48 GMT

#24

In general you can move stuff around in Japanese sentences fairly easily, save for the ending verbs.

Tanaka-san wa, konban kuji ni telebi wo mimasu.

I'm assuming the sentence is saying Tanaka will be watching TV at 9 (kuji).

So no fek

United States3001 Posts

October 05 2009 00:00 GMT

#25

On October 05 2009 02:48 Funnytoss wrote:
In general you can move stuff around in Japanese sentences fairly easily, save for the ending verbs.

Tanaka-san wa, konban kuji ni telebi wo mimasu.

I'm assuming the sentence is saying Tanaka will be watching TV at 9 (kuji).

Oh shit, I had forgotten all about 9. It went entirely over my head. Thanks for saving me a really stupid mistake.

Ecael

United States6703 Posts

October 05 2009 00:46 GMT

#26

For よく, you can stuff that in a lot of places, one of the most flexible adverbs since it denotes both frequency and quality, so try to make proper distinctions once sentences get complicated.

Funnytoss' answer looks right to me too...but where is that comma after は coming from.

So no fek

United States3001 Posts

October 05 2009 03:49 GMT

#27

I'm taking it directly from my handout, which is presumably printed/supplementary to the book. Obviously it's not the English style comma, just as the text isn't in romanji, but hiragana. All of the questions on the printout have a comma after the は.

gamecrazy

United States421 Posts

October 05 2009 04:37 GMT

#28

The comma after [(subject) は] is completely discretionary. You can choose to put it in or leave it out, doesn't matter. After a while, you stop caring, so you leave it out. よく could mean frequent or well, and although it doesn't matter where it goes, I think easier to denote frequency by putting it in front of the subject.

Funnytoss already got your sentence right:
田中さんは今晩九時にテレビを見ます。

たなかさんはこんばんくじにテレビをみます。

Tanakasan ha konban kuji ni terebi wo mimasu.

Tanaka will watch TV at nine tonight.

So no fek

United States3001 Posts

October 05 2009 04:59 GMT

#29

Yeah, as soon as I read it, it clicked. I have absolutely no idea what was keeping my mind from reading it as 9 o'clock, and trying to make sense of the sentence from there. The particle was more than clear once I was able to get past that.

madnessman

United States1581 Posts

October 05 2009 05:12 GMT

#30

both work but the best way of saying "i often read books" is "私は本をよく読みます”. it doesnt' really matter.wwwww orz

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