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Does anyone else think this word is starting to get overused outside of TL?
Tasteless uses it quite a bit in his commentaries (and sometimes somewhat awkwardly in my opinion). Ever since then it's been fucking everywhere on video comments on youtube and GOM...which is pissing me off...especially as they're not fucking using the word correctly.
Metagame refers to sort of the core of the game's play dynamics. How whatever matchup plays out on a theoretical level is a part of the metagame. You're referring to the metagame of a TvZ when you say that zerg is weaker in the midgame until he techs to hive and defilers come out. You're somewhat referring to the metagame when you talk about how terran can't push out safely until his first vessel is out, or terran can't get map control until the muta harass threat is over.
That kind of thing is metagame...NOT "Mind's decision about the metagame was poor, he got his 3rd very late and that push was simply not an effective way to play against how Effort played."
So bad.
You compare what is considered as SC's "metagame" to what occurs in the actual game...the actual played game is what affirms and reaffirms what we accept as the "metagame". The metagame shifts as maps change and new timings/strategies/builds/etc are figured out to tackle one advantage/disadvantage or imbalance or another.
What're your thoughts? I've never really thought deeply about the meaning of the term, and am just applying to SC what is thought of as the "metaphysics" of something in philosophy. There's just something that's implicitly WRONG with how kids throw around that word.
  
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United States11390 Posts
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On June 06 2009 11:43 Harem wrote:
yomi
NO YOU
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I've never actually paid attention to it. I've only ever used the word while roleplaying, referring to the use of out-of-game knowledge in game.
But you know which one really grinds my gears? The use of 'literally' to help exaggerate something... -_-
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United States2186 Posts
Metagame is a standard term that goes beyond starcraft, but yeah it is misused a lot in SC for whatever reason.
Metagame is the current favored strategies in a matchup.
i,e in 2007 the TvP metagame was 1 fact fe -> 4 fact -> 3rd base.
After Flash tore up Bacchus, Gom S4, and GSI with his 'Flash build,' the tvp metagame slowly shifted towards his build and the 4 fact -> 3rd build died out.
That was a metagame shift. There really isn't anything more to it.
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i've always thought of a metagame as "the game outside the game". for instance, mindgames are a metagame
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Metagame is an existing term, you can't just randomly extrapolate from another word with the same prefix and decide your definition is correct. I haven't been watching any English commentaries so I can't really say whether it's being used incorrectly, but the quote you gave could very well be metagame.
If you could play a "blind" Starcraft match on a new map, in which your opponent's identity is unknown and is a randomly chosen player from a randomly chosen period of SC history, then all you can consider in your decisions are your knowledge of the game and whatever information you gather in-game.
Now, anything external sources of information that are added back into this scenario comprise the metagame. Builds you know are popular in certain matchups at a given time, knowledge of the history of strategies for certain maps, knowledge of your opponent's playstyle all are factors external to the game itself but that a good player will take into account. Hence, "meta"game.
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its a made up word lol
whoever made it up can use it however they want
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konadora
Singapore66155 Posts
Sounds like when newfags started spamming memes everywhere
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On June 06 2009 11:50 RoieTRS wrote:
i've always thought of a metagame as "the game outside the game". for instance, mindgames are a metagame
This is how I've always seen it.
+ Show Spoiler [What I think of when I hear metagame] +That game he had a build order advantage, going 13 core against JangBis 17 core. Faster core means faster range. Faster range means huge early game micro advantage which in turn means ramp contain if gate numbers are equal. That means that JangBi has to 2 gate, which he did, which in turn means that Bisu can get away with 1 gate pressure into exp into mass gate.
That small build order advantage can be extrapolated out as far as Bisu's much faster expo. Both players knew this, JangBi going mass goon and trying to break the exp before it had any chance to repay Bisu's investment in it. But Bisu's excellent micro to defend it won the game.
In short, the opening builds gave Bisu an economic advantage which could only be negated if JangBi outmicroed Bisu at a critical time. He couldn't. On November 22 2008 19:02 Kwark wrote:
Build order win.
The 99 proxy build gives short term unit advantage while the 1 gate 1 zee core build has a much stronger economy. So the defender has two priorities. Firstly, removing the unit deficit. A second gateway will do this but that takes time and if he loses too many units before it kicks in then it won't matter. That leads to the second priority. Survival. He has to put off battle for as long as he has a unit disadvantage because otherwise he'll only be able to do bad trades.
JangBi dealt with the situation perfectly, using a shield battery and probes for short term survival and a second gate for medium term survival. His superior economy should have told. However Bisu knows exactly how JangBi will deal with the situation, a shield battery, and counters it with his own. This means that JangBi loses control of his base and while he did a good job postponing battle and delaying his new zealots were always vulnerable and his gateway could be sniped if he backed off too far.
JangBi was again at a build order disadvantage. Again JangBi reacted perfectly to the situation. Unfortunately for him Bisu knew how he'd counter and countered that.
GG On November 22 2008 19:20 Kwark wrote:
Both open entirely standard and solid. Zealots to protect against any lameness on an open map like this and then a solid 2 gates then robo. If either try a mass gate allin build it'll get owned so hard. If either try a dark rush it'll get owned by obs and then reavergoon push. Solid mirror.
However JangBi wants an advantage and skips a shuttle in exchange for a faster nexus. Bisu doesn't bother with the nexus and moves in for the kill. JangBi took a stupid risk here because a reaver in a shuttle is worth far more than one without. The battle opens with Bisu getting a solid hit on JangBi's reaver forcing it to retreat, then wasting a load of goon shots and then hitting groups of goons over and over. In case anyone forgets just how much damage that reaver is doing, when it hits a pair of goons in splash it just did as much damage as 10 goon shots.
JangBi's build wasn't that risky, he had a shuttle coming, 2 reavers out and 3 gateways down compared to Bisu's 2 gateway, no exp and 1 reaver in shuttle. Had Bisu hesitated for a few seconds that would have been enough to win it for JangBi. Had Bisu lost his nerve and just tried to harass while counter expanding JangBi would have won. But Bisu read JangBi correctly and understood the situation perfectly. He knew that for 20 seconds he had a game winning advantage and he took it.
GG
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yeah metagame is the theoretical way the game is played, and obviously therefore the mind games. I.e the meta game may slowly force tvz on a map to be more macro based, but theres stil the capacity for t to do a strong early push. So the current meta game is blah blah into macro, but the z has to be wary of the meta game and look out for any changing possibilities. So metagame= theoretical play/changing dynamics of play, and therefore the re usability of past meta game. Shifts. Not explaining myself well, doesn't matter. Threads to bitch about words are ultimately pointless.
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It may be a made up word... but it's been used in chess for years. And I really have to disagree with the OP (just a little bit!) about what it means on one count: The standard builds, the way you know the game "should" work - that's part of the game. It's defined by the game rules and the ability of the players.
Metagame refers - or should - to things outside the bare facts of the game that nonetheless influence it.
The way favored styles gradually shift - often because new openings and continuations are discovered to be superior, but sometimes because a player is so successful with a given style that everybody wants to try it - that's the metagame.
The mindgames you play every time you open: some players will kill you with standard openings but die to variation, while others will punish you for the weaknesses in less common variations even if their standard play isn't as solid - that's the metagame.
The metagame is the collection of everything you know about how the game is played - not should be, but is - that will help you make the best decision, not for some abstract "perfect game" but for this particular game, against this player, under these conditions.
To finish off, here's an example: metagaming well is fantasy going 8rax against Flash in the WL playoffs.
EDIT: Oh yes, and PH is right, Tasteless was abusing the word. Mind's decision was simply a bad counter to EffOrt's strategy, it had nothing to do with any metagame.
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On June 06 2009 11:52 rgfdxm wrote:
Metagame is an existing term, you can't just randomly extrapolate from another word with the same prefix and decide your definition is correct. I haven't been watching any English commentaries so I can't really say whether it's being used incorrectly, but the quote you gave could very well be metagame.
If you could play a "blind" Starcraft match on a new map, in which your opponent's identity is unknown and is a randomly chosen player from a randomly chosen period of SC history, then all you can consider in your decisions are your knowledge of the game and whatever information you gather in-game.
Now, anything external sources of information that are added back into this scenario comprise the metagame. Builds you know are popular in certain matchups at a given time, knowledge of the history of strategies for certain maps, knowledge of your opponent's playstyle all are factors external to the game itself but that a good player will take into account. Hence, "meta"game.
Just reinforcing this post. But yea people do take words with somewhat agreed meanings and give them new ones, just the way language works.
edit - pretty good too Musoeun
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Seems like a rather pointless and confusing term to me. It's hard to know exactly what you're referring to by it since the "metagame" is usually in the process of shifting.
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I think if every1 on TL were to tell you the definition of metagame you would most likely get different answer for each person.
The word becomes what is commonly refers to and that's just how English works in general.
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Metagame is a word that exists long before starcraft. As with any word on any language, it's meaning is created by the people who used it. The way we use the word today is very different from it's origin. And many people use the word differently in different situations. Just like any other word....
In same games metagame means one thing. In another games it means another.
If you ever played GuildWars you know that there they use the word frequently and it has a very well defined meaning that every player knows: it simply means the current set of strategies that are being currently used a lot by the players. The metagame can change as people find better strategies or simply because some abilities were changed due to a patch.
Link to Guide to GW Metagame
In chess the metagame are the decisions and mind games outside of the board.
But in starcraft it seems like the meaning of the word is still unclear. There is no consensus like in guildwars or chess. So some people just use it for whatever they feel like it. Saying "this" or "that" is the correct meaning is bullshit. The correct meaning is whatever people use the word for.
Language is not made by the dictionary. Language is made by the people. The dictionary simply reflects what the people are saying.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metagame
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I think you have it backwards, OP. The thing you say is metagame isn't and the thing you say isn't metagame is.
The metagame is the popular strategies being used. So you could say the TvZ metagame got shook up awhile ago when fantasy reinvigorated the use of mech.
When you say That kind of thing is metagame...NOT "Mind's decision about the metagame was poor, he got his 3rd very late and that push was simply not an effective way to play against how Effort played."
I think this is a metagame decision. Metagame is kind of... choosing your build/strategy. Like if a pro Korean player tried to use a build from 2000 and got stomped because of it we could say he lacked a good sense of the current metagame, and strategies that old aren't as good anymore.
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On June 06 2009 15:14 Nadagast wrote:I think you have it backwards, OP. The thing you say is metagame isn't and the thing you say isn't metagame is. The metagame is the popular strategies being used. So you could say the TvZ metagame got shook up awhile ago when fantasy reinvigorated the use of mech. When you say Show nested quote +That kind of thing is metagame...NOT "Mind's decision about the metagame was poor, he got his 3rd very late and that push was simply not an effective way to play against how Effort played." I think this is a metagame decision. Metagame is kind of... choosing your build/strategy. Like if a pro Korean player tried to use a build from 2000 and got stomped because of it we could say he lacked a good sense of the current metagame, and strategies that old aren't as good anymore.
No, I don't think what constitutes the metagame of starcraft in the broader sense of the word (which is what I'm referring to here) can be used like that game by game. The metagame is constituted by trends in overall gameplay. There was a huge metagame shift when the archon/zealot timing push became popular in PvZ that was referred to as the "perfect build order" by some Koreans. That didn't last very long as zerg play changed to account for that. There was an even bigger shift with Boxer's and Fantasy's valk usage and Fantasy's mech usage that still is in effect today. Those are shifts in metagame.
You could apply "metagame" to a specific game in the way you're talking about, referring to the overarching dynamics of the individual game, but that's a bit confusing and in my opinion you'd be using an overly complicated word for no real reason and to no real effect.
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I see what you're saying, I don't think the word is that confusing though once you understand it
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EPT
