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So I was writing a low level TvP guide and was asking around Garena how a 110supply or a 4/5 factory push works because the only thing I know is that they're supposed to hit before the Protoss's Third kicks in. Sorry if that sounded stupid, I barely know TvP that much.
Then here comes along a new guy, tells me that it's supposed to be under 10 minutes which is reasonable I think, I never timed my games though. So I tell him that the objective of the 110 push is to kill the protoss before the third base kicks in. He then says that the Protoss has the advantage, I asked him why, he told me that the Protoss has the advantage if he goes 14nex and I was like "wtf man, you should be able to scout that and counter with a bunker rush/FD/2fac."
Then it gets more retarded, he told me that 14 nexus is a strong opening. So I tell him that 14 nex is sometimes so predictable that Terran go BBS without scouting first because the Protoss will go 14nex. I also explained that 14 nex is like 14 cc, a hit or miss build. If you defend against 2fac or whatever rush then you'll be ahead in tech and in economy, we all know what happens if you fail at it. He then tells me that it's easy to kill rushes if you're accustomed to using 13 nex, jeez that was totally wrong. First of all, in a 13 nex, you don't even have a gateway when he's hitting your probes with his vults. If he goes Bunker rush, then you'll have to do some Zerg-ish micro which makes your economy half better than his (remember that you have the same probe scv count, pulling probes will make the effective miners less duh). Let's say you got a zealot out, he can just vulture micro you to death..........
anyway, was I right about the objective of the 110 push? and was he wrong about saying that the 13 nex is so strong..?
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where was your troll shield in a time like this D:
Yes and Depends?
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I think that the standard 13 nex build where some of the probes are cut for units is perfectly safe versus any factory opening, no matter if it's scouted or not. On any note, 13 nex is way, way more safe than 14 cc. 14 cc get's punished to death by fairly standard things like 9 pool and zealot before core. 13 nex only really dies to bbs.
For pushing, it seems like on some maps (Athena, destination?) it's kinda popular to do 5/6 facts with constant scvs and then just push out and take a position in the middle and apply some pressure while taking a third.
If you want to push to kill then you need to cut a bunch of scvs I think, and you definetly need to hit before 10 min.
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On May 07 2009 20:20 wonkman wrote:
where was your troll shield in a time like this D:
thanks for the reminder, but yeah the troll is gone now..
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robot. why even bother writing a guide, do this vs this, this vs this. dont use anything that hasnt been used before, dont do what feels right, dont use intuition.
-.-; fuck off
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CA10830 Posts
actually with a 13nex you have enough dragoons to defend even vs 2fact vults if you don't make any mistakes in your micro. pretty much the only sure way to kill it early is to do something like BBS or that slightly delayed scv rush with rines and a few vults.
and i'm not sure what you mean by "you should be able to scout that and counter with a bunker rush/FD/2fac." bunker rush, sure. 2fact, maybe. FD? that will just leave you with a worse econ than him.
but yes you are right about the timing push. ideally you want to push out in that timing window where they spent money on the 3rd nex but they haven't reaped any benefits from it yet.
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13-14 Nexus is actually an incredibly good opening on certain maps, especially at the lower levels.
The Terran can rush, yes, but on maps like Colosseum or Medusa it's nearly impossible to kill his nexus if you have equal micro. 2 fact with 2 addons is quite fail if you go with the standard build of getting mines+speed, it's more effective to get siege, but it can still be tricky.
Your best bet is to rush with marines + first vulture and a group of 5-6 SCVs.
Even so, most players up until C-/C level fail to properly rush a 14 nex in my experience.
About the push... a 110 push is kind of delayed, you should use it to aim for a very late Protoss third, or you should do it when the toss has a little more units than usual (that's why they delay their 3rd, usually)
a 110 push comes slightly after 10 minutes, a normal 5 fact 100 push comes at about 9:30.
BTW if you want to do a later push because you scouted many gates/units and/or a late third by the toss, you should go with a 6 factory timing attack.
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On May 07 2009 20:30 KlaCkoN wrote:
I think that the standard 13 nex build where some of the probes are cut for units is perfectly safe versus any factory opening, no matter if it's scouted or not. On any note, 13 nex is way, way more safe than 14 cc. 14 cc get's punished to death by fairly standard things like 9 pool and zealot before core. 13 nex only really dies to bbs.
For pushing, it seems like on some maps (Athena, destination?) it's kinda popular to do 5/6 facts with constant scvs and then just push out and take a position in the middle and apply some pressure while taking a third.
If you want to push to kill then you need to cut a bunch of scvs I think, and you definetly need to hit before 10 min.
There's "any factory opening," and then there's the fast 2fact where the terran brings every single one of his SCVs and attack moves on your base.
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On May 07 2009 20:34 Vex wrote:
robot. why even bother writing a guide, do this vs this, this vs this. dont use anything that hasnt been used before, dont do what feels right, dont use intuition.
-.-; fuck off
Because there's a lack of guides that show the actual early game build order....
and the statement in bold meant......
don't use Valkyries/ mech on zerg,
don't use dropship play on TvP..
or even way back.
stay on one base, don't expand, expanding hasn't been used before.
Yeah, makes perfect sense.
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Well I only ever use 12 nexus and only on certain maps. For example, if you get cross-positions on Colosseum you can pretty much block any early rush except proxy barracks. Terran might be able to contain you but with the long distance you should be able to break out. So yes nexus first is a very strong build if the dice land favourably, a Terran can't always punish it (some might even say it's cheap and abusive).
If you want to hit a toss before they are benefiting from their 3rd it's the wrong way of thinking to time it on your own supply count. Okay so maybe in a completely standard game 110 supply is perfect, but I don't think it's that useful to a low level player.
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I very rarely get killed when I go 12nex. It's not really a dangerous build unless they scout it very early and do something really weird. They can usually harass it, but usually it wont get killed. I'd say you are wrong 
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On May 07 2009 21:02 SilverSkyLark wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2009 20:34 Vex wrote:
robot. why even bother writing a guide, do this vs this, this vs this. dont use anything that hasnt been used before, dont do what feels right, dont use intuition.
-.-; fuck off Because there's a lack of guides that show the actual early game build order.... and the statement in bold meant...... don't use Valkyries/ mech on zerg, don't use dropship play on TvP.. or even way back. stay on one base, don't expand, expanding hasn't been used before.Yeah, makes perfect sense.
hmm.. tunnel vision?
typical response really. too dumb to figure out that im talking about what his guide would contain, dumbass.
thats just retarded
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On May 07 2009 21:59 Vex wrote:
...
Manner up.
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On May 07 2009 20:50 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2009 20:30 KlaCkoN wrote:
I think that the standard 13 nex build where some of the probes are cut for units is perfectly safe versus any factory opening, no matter if it's scouted or not. On any note, 13 nex is way, way more safe than 14 cc. 14 cc get's punished to death by fairly standard things like 9 pool and zealot before core. 13 nex only really dies to bbs.
For pushing, it seems like on some maps (Athena, destination?) it's kinda popular to do 5/6 facts with constant scvs and then just push out and take a position in the middle and apply some pressure while taking a third.
If you want to push to kill then you need to cut a bunch of scvs I think, and you definetly need to hit before 10 min. There's "any factory opening," and then there's the fast 2fact where the terran brings every single one of his SCVs and attack moves on your base.
But you still won't be worse of than if you did one gate exp.
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On May 07 2009 20:34 Vex wrote:
robot. why even bother writing a guide, do this vs this, this vs this. dont use anything that hasnt been used before, dont do what feels right, dont use intuition.
-.-; fuck off
lol coz u some BW genius intuitioning your way to A+ right...
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Starcraft: A guide by Vex.
1. Be good at starcraft.
2. Congratulations.
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Thanks guys, I appreciate the help haha. I wasn't really sure about the 110 push anyway and I'm not writing to guy alone, after writing it I'm passing it to other guys to edit it..
and yeah:
typical response really. too dumb to figure out that im talking about what his guide would contain,
You don't even know what the guide contains lol, where did you get the idea that I'm going to put in things that haven't been used before?
Jeez I never had the idea that 14 nex in PvT was a good opening...always had the idea of getting bunker rushed or 2 fac speed vult....
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EPT
