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On April 14 2009 14:56 404.Delirium wrote:
"Queens are used, but they're a tech-heavy support unit and they fly, which has reduced the desire for them. Their main advantage is ensare, but Broodling kills high-profile units that the Zerg have trouble with, like Ultralisks, Siege Tanks, and Archons. They are also useful for harassment. Unfortunately, Broodlings cost a lot and take a poopieton of power to use, which is the main problem with them. Parasite is incredibly useful but extremely exploitable; a smart player who notices a unit of his is parasited can set things up so that you see only what he wants you to, while Terran players can cure it entirely. The big reason players use Queens is Ensnare, which is a cheap cloak counter. In general, the Queens are too expensive and tech-heavy to make heavy use of; many players would usually simply overwhelm foes."
I gigglesnorted =)
Seriously. What in this post is wrong?
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Broodlings don't do jack to Chons.
Ensare is the shit. I wish zergies would use it more =[
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On April 14 2009 21:45 YPang wrote:
i forgot, three was a korean game on RoV, where T massed ghosts....
Which one was that? I wanna see.
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Well yeah it's funny when noobs talk about a game like that and it's clear that they have no idea how one has to play or how most players play, but opinions like these can also (indirectly) reveal issues that might be easily overlooked by veteran players, and especially fanatics.
For example you see that "interesting", micro-intensive units like ghosts or queens are often mentioned when noobs talk because they think they rock or should be used a lot.
Thus, the veteran player will just laugh at the noobs who don't know how the game MUST be played or how most players do in fact play the game, and he's right in that regard.
However, the real problem is that the units or abilities the noobs are talking about were actually designed in the hope of being useful (otherwise they wouldn't be in the game...), and the noobs do pretty much know what they can theoretically be used for.
They just don't know that when playing the game on a decent level, you simply can't use some units or abilities at all because they're either too hard to use, not worth the cost, or bad for other reasons, but these reasons are all kind of interconnected... for example the best Zerg in the world who plays like 10+ hours a day, Jaedong, once said in an interview that queen usage (in ZvT) is very hard. So basically you have this monster of a player admitting that he can't use one unit type at all (in most games). Which means this unit type effectively doesn't exist for all other players in the world, because if it's too hard for him, then it's impossible for all others.
And so, in effect, it's not worth buying queens, so you could say "the unit is too weak for its resource cost", but you could just as well say "the game is too fast for humans to handle queens properly *in addition* to all the other elementary stuff" or more simply "queens aren't balanced well" -- so I wouldn't see anything wrong when mentioning these balance issues within the game. These balance issues do not have an effect on the game when humans play, but it's clear that the game isn't perfectly balanced, otherwise there wouldn't be such a thing like *completely* unimportant units.
One could of course make similar cases with ghost and lockdown etc... which is mostly used for fun e.g. when Boxer is playing to make a show, but the current best Terrans never use them, and we all know why. Except maybe when they already have a ridiculously large advantage and they can afford spending resources for "fun" units.
So as a result, one can call SC balanced, but only for the small subset of the game which is actually used (can be used) in practice.
The rest can't be used, and can thus be called "imba" (i.e. that it's not worth at all to bother using it), and that's actually a shame.
That said, there also was a lot of utter bullshit in that thread.
But the particular case above shows that the different angle from which noobs look at the game can sometimes reveal underlying general problems which real players ignore.
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On April 14 2009 14:56 404.Delirium wrote:
"Queens are used, but they're a tech-heavy support unit and they fly, which has reduced the desire for them. Their main advantage is ensare, but Broodling kills high-profile units that the Zerg have trouble with, like Ultralisks, Siege Tanks, and Archons. They are also useful for harassment. Unfortunately, Broodlings cost a lot and take a poopieton of power to use, which is the main problem with them. Parasite is incredibly useful but extremely exploitable; a smart player who notices a unit of his is parasited can set things up so that you see only what he wants you to, while Terran players can cure it entirely. The big reason players use Queens is Ensnare, which is a cheap cloak counter. In general, the Queens are too expensive and tech-heavy to make heavy use of; many players would usually simply overwhelm foes."
I gigglesnorted =)
Am I the only person who noticed this? POOPIETON?! SERIOUSLY??? Fuck that's the funniest word ever.
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On April 15 2009 04:46 Xeris wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2009 14:56 404.Delirium wrote:
"Queens are used, but they're a tech-heavy support unit and they fly, which has reduced the desire for them. Their main advantage is ensare, but Broodling kills high-profile units that the Zerg have trouble with, like Ultralisks, Siege Tanks, and Archons. They are also useful for harassment. Unfortunately, Broodlings cost a lot and take a poopieton of power to use, which is the main problem with them. Parasite is incredibly useful but extremely exploitable; a smart player who notices a unit of his is parasited can set things up so that you see only what he wants you to, while Terran players can cure it entirely. The big reason players use Queens is Ensnare, which is a cheap cloak counter. In general, the Queens are too expensive and tech-heavy to make heavy use of; many players would usually simply overwhelm foes."
I gigglesnorted =) Am I the only person who noticed this? POOPIETON?! SERIOUSLY??? Fuck that's the funniest word ever.
They have a word filter in place.
Shit = Poopie
Fuck = Fruit
Relic = Reric (no idea why on this one)
Bitch = Great Dog (I think)
There are probably more, but those are the ones that come to mind first.
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On April 14 2009 14:15 Sigrun wrote:You know, ghosts really do rape mutalisk. If you ever play a muta micro map with ghosts on it, your mutas just melt. But they're way too expensive and suck against everything else to be useful in a normal TvZ I guess. 
Yea, this is correct. the quote though is off, should be that ghosts do 'concussive' damage and mutas have 'small' unit size. Also, ghosts in bunkers have range of guardians. GG Mutas!
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ahhh...i'm from the Sanc, quite a few of us browse here
Hell, the Sanc got so fed up with DoW2 that they actually made a forum to host a SC tourny. A lot of the more smarter players don't play any more so they don't visit the site, which has led to an influx of bored and stupid posts :[
it's a great site though, all since DoW it's housed the best players with the best of everything, but as each expansion was released, more and more failure arrived and DoW2 just completely dashed all hope for a good DoW game :[
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"Starcraft = luck bullpoopie these days but it is balanced same as poker is.
Also koreans kinda sux cause this game requires no skill anymore its just mashing buttons @ 400 apm and do the same poopie over and over again but better.
Game was 1000x better in the old days than its now imo."
This guy starts of with an interesting comment comparing sc to poker, but then made me sigh so hard. But kinda made it up, because old day, low-apm sc had its charm.
They know more about sc then we know about dow2
EDIT: There should be a filter on tl.net also, bullpoopie/poopieton, cmon, thats gold.
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On April 22 2009 06:50 Gnojfatelob wrote:
"Starcraft = luck bullpoopie these days but it is balanced same as poker is.
Also koreans kinda sux cause this game requires no skill anymore its just mashing buttons @ 400 apm and do the same poopie over and over again but better.
Game was 1000x better in the old days than its now imo."
I cried when read that[on the DoW forums]. " No skill any more, just mashing buttons @ 400 APM " ...
Retards. lol
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i don't get that luck argument, how many random factors are there in a normal starcraft match anyways? hit/miss when shooting up a ramp?
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United States47024 Posts
On April 14 2009 16:25 prOxi.Beater wrote:
I mean, the OPs point that some units being useless in most situations is a pretty valid one. Take ZvZ for instance. Almost ALL the units in the zerg arsenal become useless in this matchup. You pretty much have no alternative than to go zerglings and then mutas, and is that really what we want in a game?
Its variation. It would be bad if every matchup only used a tiny subset of the units, but it would be equally bad if every matchup required every unit. The different unit requirements of each matchup feed into the variety and what makes the game interesting.
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United States47024 Posts
On April 15 2009 02:01 0xDEADBEEF wrote:
So as a result, one can call SC balanced, but only for the small subset of the game which is actually used (can be used) in practice.
The rest can't be used, and can thus be called "imba" (i.e. that it's not worth at all to bother using it), and that's actually a shame.
How many units/abilities really fit into that category though? Off the top of my head, the units and abilities that aren't used commonly are:
Ghosts/Nukes
Battlecruisers
Restoration/Optic Flare Abilities (Medic)
Queens
Devourers
Hallucination Ability (High Templar)
Scouts
Dark Archons
IMO queens are a pretty small exception where the unit isn't underpowered, but just too hard to use. Scouts, Devourers, and Battlecruisers, for example, aren't underused because they're hard to use, but simply because other units can fill the same role at a much lower cost. While Queens are fast, fragile, and have hard-to-manage abilities, the same can't be said of, say, the Scout, which is slow, has lots of HP, and no abilities. It's just not cost-effective, there's no other way of saying it. The same arguably holds true of almost every unit on this list except for Queens and Dark Archons.
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man, i used to see bc's in tvt so regularly :[ i miss them.
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On April 14 2009 14:15 Sigrun wrote:You know, ghosts really do rape mutalisk. If you ever play a muta micro map with ghosts on it, your mutas just melt. But they're way too expensive and suck against everything else to be useful in a normal TvZ I guess.
I was just going to say that =P its very true
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On April 14 2009 13:21 Phyre wrote:
the DoW equivalent of TL
This place basically houses the best players of almost all non-blizzard RTS's:
http://www.gamereplays.org/portals.php
Not that it have anything to do with the topic, just wanted to point it out, and even though the relic boards keeps a lower standard than the site overall I would be surprised if any relic site is actually more hardcore.
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On April 22 2009 06:50 Gnojfatelob wrote:
There should be a filter on tl.net also, bullpoopie/poopieton, cmon, thats gold.
Hm, it would make a good April Fools joke on here. That's for sure! 
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On April 14 2009 14:05 GTR wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2009 13:50 Alphonsse wrote:On April 14 2009 13:28 Realpenguin wrote:I do know Starcraft. Do I play often? No. Thanks to Nick "Tasteless" Plot", I know everything there is to know about Starcraft. He just exlains everything in a very cool fashion. no offense Tasteless, but LOL What's funny is that tasteless himself wouldn't say he knows everything about sc, let alone some dude who watched a few vods with tasteless commentating. might as well say that every korean who has watched a game of starcraft knows everything about the game as well
maybe it wasn't meant to be taken completely literally?
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EPT
