brag post

On March 19 2009 05:33 Boblion wrote:
Idra ? :D

On March 19 2009 05:56 StormSnarlX wrote:
http://www.iccup.com/gamingprofile/lg)handy.html

awesome, you beat a B- player O.O

On March 19 2009 06:23 Grobyc wrote:
Never even heard of this guy....

On March 19 2009 06:06 littlechava wrote:
always nice to beat a decent player, especially when they're a faggot

On March 19 2009 07:10 Oystein wrote:
Didnt handy take a game from some Korean during Spirit or am I remember wrong Latino Terran?

On March 19 2009 10:10 ramen247 wrote:
wow...the game you won...if i was handy i wouldnt have gg'ed either....

On March 19 2009 10:12 YPang wrote:


Thats why i appreciate how the majority of the people that i play aren't like you or handy... o,o

On March 19 2009 06:06 littlechava wrote:
always nice to beat a decent player, especially when they're a faggot

On March 19 2009 10:33 IdrA wrote:
"hey you HAVE to say this thing which denotes respect to me."
?
what the fuck is the point
if someone has no choice but to say it it becomes meaningless.

On March 19 2009 10:36 ramen247 wrote:


but you are terran...

and i am terran...

havent you ever been swarmed in your base before? you instantly feel a shock of pain, and futility of anything you try to do... its like if someone is ready to fight you in an enclosed ring with a club and armor. you cant do anything about it once he decides he wants to hit you...

dont worry...

i am only like this if i lose that specific way. zerg can swarm.

But if i was 30 supply ahead and lost due to a swarm placed in my nat...

if i lose any other way besides the one above, i will be respectful and gg.

On March 19 2009 11:07 StRyKeR wrote:


that's the point

you don't have to say it, but if you don't, it basically means you're a dick

in these cases it was pretty clear, he didn't gg first game, then gg's before me second game WHICH I LOST lol

also, ROFL @ tvz imbalance whining

On March 19 2009 11:31 IdrA wrote:
and yes the dark swarm mechanic is retarded
however its too late to do anything about it because zerg would be fucked without it. ideally blizzard would have made zergs lair tech units stronger, because as is you fight with them all game on them and switching immediately to ultras costs too much and leaves a timing window, so z has to depend on swarm to survive.

but seriously, just look at it from an outside perspective. a spell that guarantees that you cant attack something for however long its duration is? it allows for exceedingly slow, boring games. watch any zvt xiaozi has ever played.

On March 19 2009 11:31 IdrA wrote:
and yes the dark swarm mechanic is retarded
however its too late to do anything about it because zerg would be fucked without it. ideally blizzard would have made zergs lair tech units stronger, because as is you fight with them all game on them and switching immediately to ultras costs too much and leaves a timing window, so z has to depend on swarm to survive.

but seriously, just look at it from an outside perspective. a spell that guarantees that you cant attack something for however long its duration is? it allows for exceedingly slow, boring games. watch any zvt xiaozi has ever played.

On March 19 2009 11:21 ramen247 wrote:



im not whining...its true. if i have 50 bunkers in my base yuou can just put up swamr and even 5 lings will rape them...

On March 19 2009 11:15 IdrA wrote:
why are you a dick if you dont respect someone?
if ptak 3 hat ling allins me and i dont happen to be watching my natural the moment the lings come in, what about that should earn my respect? you do not deserve someones respect, you earn it, and if you are incapable of earning it it is not the fault of the other person.

On March 19 2009 11:42 StRyKeR wrote:

it's true, zerg would be fucked without dark swarm, and dark swarm is overly powerful in many situations, but that's how the game is. unless there's ACTUAL imbalance zerg vs terran, I wouldn't be complaining -- it's just an aspect of the game you have to deal with (if you want proof that if anything, terran > zerg, just look at people in Korea playing 24-7 trying to optimize the matchup and still finding terrans raping zergs left and right)

On March 19 2009 11:46 IdrA wrote:
actually i think its more of the fact that its very hard to reach the highest levels of zvt than that terran is inherently >z. there have almost always been a couple of very very high level zergs who can compete with the top terrans just fine... but then all the rest kinda blow. yellow,july,gorush,savior,jaedong and a few others who had brief moments of glory all seemed to deal with it quite well in their primes. the 2nd tier zergs come to mind much less readily, cuz most of them werent very good at all.

On March 19 2009 11:44 StRyKeR wrote:


if you're having trouble vs. defilers, don't put yourself in a situation where your main is getting owned by swarm

it's like Neo in the matrix --

Neo: Are you saying that I can eventually dodge bulletsdark swarm?
Morpheus: No. When you're ready, you won't have to.

I agree that dark swarm is hella hella strong in some situations. But overall, the matchup tvz is balanced. If anything, terran > zerg

On March 19 2009 11:49 ramen247 wrote:


-_-...no matter how aggressive i am, its not so hard to defend your expos... and its not so hard to just charge some random lurkling defiler group into my nat while i am out hunting expos. watch savior vs forgg. savior consatntly brings a small zerg force with a defiler thru and alternate passageway to forgg's nat and just keeps abusing swarm to make the nat totally unuseable. forgg cannot do anything except irradiate and just sit there and wait.

or another situation.

its late game and i have some sk army running around...

i go and atk your 4th base. you have 3 lurkers stationed there burrowed.

i spread and atk the 3 lurks, thish shud be fucking easy. you bring defiler thru nydus and cast a swarm over the lurkers.

me: -_-. my marines have to back off, and i have to start iradiating. this gives you enuff time to bring the rest of your army and position it in favor of you ofc, and if i dont gtfo out of there, i will get raped in the behind by a swarm in the back of me.

On March 19 2009 11:46 StRyKeR wrote:


to me, if someone catches me offguard and bum-rushes me or does something that passes my radar, that's worthy of respect

I mean, it's also a mind-game, not just a "whose mechanic is better" or "who memorizes builds better" -- it's about who wins.

if you don't respect this mind-game, then I would think you're playing for "fun" and not to "win", and that's an insult to the game, so to me, you're being a dick. this reasoning probably doesn't apply to most, but that's how I see it. but of course, it does suck and it pisses me off how I could let 2 vultures run into my main and sack all of my drones and it's gg instantly

i mean, ground units with range that are the fastest in the game, kills a drone in 3 hits, has 80 hp, costs 75 minerals? wtf? i should be angry about zvt imbalance :|

On March 19 2009 11:52 IdrA wrote:

you mean units that die if anything attacks them? ya theyre pretty strong

'mind games' is often a euphamism for 'wins i dont deserve'. july's zvt is a mind fuck. ptaks zvt is making 2 control groups of speedlings and praying. if you think he deserves respect for that thats fine, but i think you're giving credit where none is due.

On March 19 2009 11:49 StRyKeR wrote:


do you really think that? how many zergs have reached that prime? I can't think of any, because despite Jaedong's monster ZvT, whenever he faces Flash or some good terran, I always see him as the underdog. In fact, that argument applies more to terrans. During the savior-era, every terran got manhandled by fast hive. Now that terrans are reaching higher levels of tvz, savior gets ass-raped all the time.

It's of course a testament to how hard high level zvt is that there are only three progamers with > 6% win ratios. I'm glad we can agree that high level zvt is harder than high level tvz. But I disagree that highest level zvt > highest level tvz.

On March 19 2009 11:52 IdrA wrote:

you mean units that die if anything attacks them? ya theyre pretty strong

'mind games' is often a euphamism for 'wins i dont deserve'. july's zvt is a mind fuck. ptaks zvt is making 2 control groups of speedlings and praying. if you think he deserves respect for that thats fine, but i think you're giving credit where none is due.

On March 19 2009 11:56 StRyKeR wrote:


it seems like this is where we disagree, which is surprising, because Terran uses the most mind fuck out of all the races

wall in with supply + rax -- what could you possibly be doing? I have to hedge on everything unless I suicide an overlord. Build hydra den in case you go wraith, make 3rd hatch at nat to prevent vulture runbys, make a sunk at home in case you drop mnm, the list goes on.

the game is great because it's not all about who has the better build, but who makes the fewest mistakes. if you look away for a second and you get ling rushed, that's really your fault isn't it?

as much as i hate to say it, if a terran catches me off guard and drops mnm when i expect wraiths, it's my failed calculations and hedging that loses me the game.

i agree that it's a gamble for the other player, but a good player should be able to defend against gambles and all-in style plays. it's part of being a good player and not just a robot that memorizes builds to the second

On March 19 2009 11:56 IdrA wrote:

jaedong raped the piss out of flash in the only 'conventional' series theyve played (the msl a few seasons ago), he raped the piss out of him with 2 hat muta in the gom1 finals. hes only been getting beat down since hes become addicted to 2 hat muta and since the mech revolution started to fuck with things.
sad to say it but savior isnt just getting beat by terrans now. he is not playing like he was during his dominance.

also do not put words in my mouth. i did not say high level zvt was harder than high level tvz. i said it was harder to reach high level, but once you're there i think theyre equal. that is because the skills necessary for the 2 matchups are different, zvt is more general game management and intelligence and whatnot while tvz is almost pure mechanics. in progaming (the only place high level in this sense is reach) everyone practices a shitload. this makes it relatively easy to get insane mechanics, whereas its much more difficult to develop the kind of bw-intelligence that savior had.

On March 19 2009 12:01 StRyKeR wrote:


okay, I misinterpreted your post, but I actually meant what you said, so we do agree.

the skills you need are indeed different, and the amorphous quality of "game management" and "intelligence" is what makes zerg possibly impossible to really fully understand.

now that i think about it, it's kind of meaningless to think of which race is harder to play "at the highest possible level" because no human will ever reach it. we have to deal with human limitations, and I will argue that zerg vs terran is a matchup that favors terran for human players with limited foresight, mechanics, and intelligence

On March 19 2009 11:59 ramen247 wrote:



if he drops mnm when you expected wraiths... then just backstab his base while massing sunkens at the base that is still undamaged... ez.

On March 19 2009 12:02 IdrA wrote:
you missed my point, the july counterexample was the kind of thing that does deserve respect because he does outsmart his opponents. the eastern european zergs arent trying to trick their opponents or anything, they do the same allin every single game, they just hope their opponent isnt familiar with their styles. ya terrans to blame for not scouting it or whatever, but that doesnt mean that the zerg deserves respect for it.

On March 19 2009 12:04 IdrA wrote:
i think leaving the game carries that message quite sufficiently...

On March 19 2009 12:04 StRyKeR wrote:


sure, but if I were the terran I'd still say gg because gg to me means "you got me, good game" not "I respect your level of playing which was vastly superior to mine" actually, don't most people think that?

On March 19 2009 12:11 Nytefish wrote:
Just don't attach so much meaning to gg. No one's going to say "loool he said gg that proves i pwned him!!!". But they wil say "omg no gg BM!!"

On March 19 2009 12:08 ramen247 wrote:


lol? try terran. seriously try it against idra's pick of players and i bet you will be so frustrated you are ready to cut yourself. you think artosis is really just joking when he gets angry and upset?

On March 19 2009 12:06 StRyKeR wrote:


well, if we're talking about the games I played, it's clear handy knew the purpose of the gg, seeing as how he used it second game to rub it in my face

but knowing that the community at large equates gg with good manners, you're just asking for it by not saying gg

if 95% of people you talk to expect you to look into their eyes while you're talking, you don't deserve sympathy if you don't and they don't trust you for it

On March 19 2009 12:10 t_co wrote:
Swarm is fucking hard to use against a decent T. If he's good, you'll have to swarmhop from screen to screen, from your nat to his, which can take close to a minute, during which he has enough time to fill up 2 dropships and raze your tech (thank you dream.t)minuet for showing me that the painful way).

On March 19 2009 12:11 Nytefish wrote:
Just don't attach so much meaning to gg. No one's going to say "loool he said gg that proves i pwned him!!!". But they wil say "omg no gg BM!!"

On March 19 2009 12:14 IdrA wrote:

wouldnt it be the people bitching about not saying gg who are attaching undue amounts of meaning to it then?

On March 19 2009 12:14 IdrA wrote:

wouldnt it be the people bitching about not saying gg who are attaching undue amounts of meaning to it then?

On March 19 2009 12:12 StRyKeR wrote:


I think we can both agree that zvt and tvz are hard

and I've tried terran. I get rolled by ultras all the time.

On March 19 2009 12:15 StRyKeR wrote:


sure you can say that, but in the end their head count (many) > your head count (1) and you'll just have to deal with bad publicity and 95% of people talking shit behind your back

i think we'll have to settle this with a bo7

On March 19 2009 12:16 ramen247 wrote:


thats not even that bad. at least you can tell yourself, oh, i lost cz i didnt macro well enuff or some crap like that.

if someone beats you with a swarm like that, and it wasnt czu of macro or w/e since you have 30 SUPPPLY higher, then you get pretty lost and you dont really know how to fix that problem.

if a zerg manages to killl you with mutas, you really dont know why you lost. you abused your standard build order as much as you could, and you didnt slip up. how come the mutas still did so much damge????

On March 19 2009 12:16 ramen247 wrote:


thats not even that bad. at least you can tell yourself, oh, i lost cz i didnt macro well enuff or some crap like that.

if someone beats you with a swarm like that, and it wasnt czu of macro or w/e since you have 30 SUPPPLY higher, then you get pretty lost and you dont really know how to fix that problem.

if a zerg manages to killl you with mutas, you really dont know why you lost. you abused your standard build order as much as you could, and you didnt slip up. how come the mutas still did so much damge????

On March 19 2009 12:17 StRyKeR wrote:


being above 30 supply doesn't mean you're ahead and you should win. at no point in the game should you really say "i'm ahead, i should win" and then lose, and be sorry that you lost. Zergs usually are behind in supply anyway, they win through numbers not supply.

i'm not good with terran at all

On March 19 2009 12:15 Nytefish wrote:


Yes I'm not saying people who don't gg deserve to be bitched at, just that it's a nice gesture which doesn't cost much. Like how you shake hands or say thanks in other sports, just because it's a computer game doesn't mean you aren't competing against humans.

On March 19 2009 12:18 StRyKeR wrote:


oh, and I can understand the pain of one swarm raping your supply depots if you can understand the pain of 2 vultures running by your sunks and raping 20 drones

On March 19 2009 12:14 IdrA wrote:

wouldnt it be the people bitching about not saying gg who are attaching undue amounts of meaning to it then?

and i was just arguing about it from the respect thing because thats the most common justification i see for it

On March 19 2009 12:20 ramen247 wrote:



but thats a problem that can be fixed thru things like building placement...

and who says the zerg has to do a frontal attack. its really not that hard to drop a defiler with lurkling into the terran main in the late game... supply depots for free....

On March 19 2009 12:19 IdrA wrote:

well if its a nice gesture then there has to be meaning behind it. if there were no meaning it would be.. a meaningless gesture

On March 19 2009 12:21 StRyKeR wrote:


so you don't say gg when you think the other player played a gamble strategy that basically relied on one fault in your strategy

well, are you ever really sure that happened, Idra? I'd be sure, but AFTER watching the replay. Often times, the other player is playing as legitimately as he knows how, practicing a lot, getting feedback, preparing it. Especially in this case, I felt bad-manner from Handy because I was trying my hardest to win in a way I knew how, not thinking of doing an all-in strategy and "getting away" with a win. Is there no benefit of the doubt in Handy's mind, or is it just an assumption to assume that he'd been had?

Sometimes they go out of their way to LOOK for your weaknesses -- is respect really undeserved in that case? Me analyzing your replays and finding a weakness and making a risky bo to counter it?

On March 19 2009 12:19 IdrA wrote:

well if its a nice gesture then there has to be meaning behind it. if there were no meaning it would be.. a meaningless gesture

On March 19 2009 12:21 StRyKeR wrote:


so you don't say gg when you think the other player played a gamble strategy that basically relied on one fault in your strategy

well, are you ever really sure that happened, Idra? I'd be sure, but AFTER watching the replay. Often times, the other player is playing as legitimately as he knows how, practicing a lot, getting feedback, preparing it. Especially in this case, I felt bad-manner from Handy because I was trying my hardest to win in a way I knew how, not thinking of doing an all-in strategy and "getting away" with a win. Is there no benefit of the doubt in Handy's mind, or is it just an assumption to assume that he'd been had?

Sometimes they go out of their way to LOOK for your weaknesses -- is respect really undeserved in that case? Me analyzing your replays and finding a weakness and making a risky bo to counter it?

On March 19 2009 12:23 IdrA wrote:


this is all theoretical, when i dont gg its cuz im pissed i lost
however i still believe what i said and that the requirement of saying gg is retarded.

On March 19 2009 12:24 ramen247 wrote:



thats ENTIRELY diff. ptak doesnt look at idra's style and say, hmm a lotof speedlings would win...

On March 19 2009 12:23 Nytefish wrote:


I didn't say there was no meaning, just you don't have to look too deeply. It should just be like other sports: "thanks for the game". After all without opponents there's no game to play.

On March 19 2009 12:24 StRyKeR wrote:


there's no requirement, but you shouldn't retaliate once you get flamed for 9 pages because you signed up for it. if you believe in not saying gg some games, you don't need to explain yourself, but you have to deal with what's a-coming

On March 19 2009 12:26 IdrA wrote:

?
-_-
thanking someone for playing a game?
if they werent enjoying it themselves, or getting something out of it, they would not be playing. theres no need to thank them.
twist it around all you want but i can see no rational justification except for that its a sign of respect, in which case i still hold that there should be nothing wrong with not saying gg because you may very well feel that your opponent deserves no respect for the way they played. in fact it cant be mandatory because it would not signify respect if you _had_ to say it

On March 19 2009 12:23 StRyKeR wrote:


it's a gesture that says "i know the societal norms and i'm willing to give up some space i have inside to let you know that we're cool"

kind of like a handshake

would you not give me a handshake?

On March 19 2009 12:27 IdrA wrote:

actually in explaining myself i intend to prove the point that you shouldnt need to say gg, and if thats the case then there would be no reason to be flamed for 9 pages.

On March 19 2009 12:28 StRyKeR wrote:


actually, I just realized that people seem to resent a no gg because it's very passive aggressive

it's like "I hate your face but I'm not gonna say it, I'm gonna leave it up to you to wonder whether I meant it or I just forgot because I was stressed. I FUCKING HATE YOUR FACE but I'll be coy about it you douchebag"

I think if you say "I don't respect your game style" and leave, that's like totally respectworthy

if you ended your games with that I'll start following you really closely

On March 19 2009 12:28 StRyKeR wrote:


someone once said to me it's easier to change yourself than change the world

On March 19 2009 12:30 IdrA wrote:

pm me that before the next public match i could lose and i will

but i guarantee you that would generate a bigger shitstorm than not saying gg.

On March 19 2009 12:30 IdrA wrote:

thats the mentality of people who dont accomplish anything except making other people like them

On March 19 2009 12:26 IdrA wrote:

?
-_-
thanking someone for playing a game?
if they werent enjoying it themselves, or getting something out of it, they would not be playing. theres no need to thank them.
twist it around all you want but i can see no rational justification except for that its a sign of respect, in which case i still hold that there should be nothing wrong with not saying gg because you may very well feel that your opponent deserves no respect for the way they played. in fact it cant be mandatory because it would not signify respect if you _had_ to say it

On March 19 2009 12:35 IdrA wrote:
or you could be yourself and find people who appreciate that and enjoy your life
or the easier route
whichever

On March 19 2009 12:36 StRyKeR wrote:


unless you're desperately looking for a friend and therefore need to advertise your personality, there's not really a need to assert yourself in public if you have friends who will vouch for you in private

EDIT: although I can see how you would respond to this. this idiom vs idiom thing is getting too general

anyway, I hope I get to see you in progames sometime. I hope at least for our sake you say "gg" if you lose on TV so the foreign community doesn't get 900 pages of flame on fighterforum

On March 19 2009 12:41 arb wrote:

they have to gg or the team loses points iirc

On March 19 2009 12:35 Nytefish wrote:


It's not respect for how they played, it's simply respect for sitting down and playing. So what if they're enjoying themselves, doesn't meant you can't be grateful for competition.

On March 19 2009 12:36 StRyKeR wrote:


unless you're desperately looking for a friend and therefore need to advertise your personality, there's not really a need to assert yourself in public if you have friends who will vouch for you in private

EDIT: although I can see how you would respond to this. this idiom vs idiom thing is getting too general

anyway, I hope I get to see you in progames sometime. I hope at least for our sake you say "gg" if you lose on TV so the foreign community doesn't get 900 pages of flame on fighterforum

actually some progamers arent even hung up on it in practice games. one of cj's members would never say gg to me when i beat him with somethin gay or lucky like a vulture run by.

On March 19 2009 12:58 IdrA wrote:

well gg is viewed as a requirement, i see no reason for a requirement to thank someone for doing something... that theyre doing for their own enjoyment.

as for respect, how does playing a game earn respect? its not like thats an achievement