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PvT at a low level is hilariously easy.
Through D-C+ all I did was the "rock build."
Basically just go 2 gate pressure, expo robo, dual reaver drop/harass, expo, zeal speed +2 stargate carriers.
More than half the people I met barely had the nerves or edge to take it on.
However when you hit the B range, the skill required for PvT suddenly raises off the roof and it just becomes insanely hard(edit:mmm insanely hard is an exaggeration, but I meant it in the sense that the skill required just suddenly leaps up from C to B). because many scenarios end up being this tedious game of rock-paper-scissors countering timing pushes. Good TvPers just read you like a book and you end up getting your pants down if you aren't careful, and you cannot simply 1a2a3a4a your way into victory, you have to make sure your zeals and goons are well spread out and your shuttle drops with either templars/reavers are by your army but not next to it, enough in the range to storm tanks/vults and retreat.
You also have to see cost effective scenarios, when to withdraw and reload, or the terran will simply steamroll you afterwards.
And seriously late game, terran upgrades are ridiculous to combat against, that whole 1a2a3a4a can be applied to a maxed out T army, and the toss has to storm/stasis very meticulously, but thats not even a guarantee because by then its likely they'll throw down EMPS and you have to make sure your spellcasters in entirely different hotkey group sets so they don't end up cluttered.
But in the general and the main point the OP mentioned, I do believe Protoss has the easiest learning curve, but to master it takes considerable depth. We are prone to timing pushes, have the weakest scouting, weakest adaptability, and having the wrong combination of units is far more punishable than the other races. In the higher echelons of starcraft, I believe it requires a good sixth sense to be a great protoss player more than having pitch perfect mechanics. There are exceptions like rock and backho making it out on top, but they play so risky and luck out many cases its unfair to blame the entire race. Think Silver or even frozean who luck out with risky and cheesy tactics, they're just the same in that manner. Unfortunately many simpletons who enter maining our race due to its elementary nature at first end up stagnating later on due to their incapable ability to foresee scenarios, hence the stereotype that protoss players are all tards, ramming their units onto walls head first.
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On September 30 2008 05:06 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2008 20:51 Krohm wrote:
Vulture = 75 mins
Dragoon = 125 mins, 50 gas
1 Dragoon > 50 Vultures without mines.
But really, comparing a vulture to a zealot isn't exactly a valid argument.Since vultures are 2nd(1.5'ish) Tier units. Mines = 100 mins, 100 gas 2x Vulture = 6x Mines = 150 mins 2x Dragoons = 250 Mins, 100 gas 6x Mines > 2x Dragoons This type of argument isn't valid, period, because of the way both sides can keep on 1-upping each other. What can be said is that the vulture is much more cost-effective than any unit that the protoss can throw at it, given its versatility, speed, and, when necessary, straight up damage. In terms of pure cost-effectiveness, there are very few units in the game that match the vulture.
Well compared to a well played Protoss, and to a well played Terran. Protoss comes out on top. Observers > Mines > Dragoons > Vultures > Zealots. Because if the Terran makes any counter to observers, it becomes fodder. Dragoons > Wraiths, Zealots > Goliaths.
I've been in many situational games where my Vultures become nothing more than fodder. They didn't even manage to pull off being meat-shields. TvP at low levels is just ridiculously hard. I was decent at every match up except TvP.
Don't get me wrong though, I do find it balanced. Terran just has to work so much harder than the Protoss.
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On September 30 2008 05:23 nAi.PrOtOsS wrote:It would be liek saying zerg is imba because 4 zerglings that cost 100 minerals in total rape a zeo which costs 100 minerals aswell.
ZERG IMBA!!
Unless you micro your zealot. I don't know if you toss players have heard of the term. Don't forget that we're making those zerglings instead of drones and the number of zerglings required increases with the number of zealots.
Anyway, the only truth in this entire "unbalanced" discussion is that it's easy to pick up protoss and play it. It doesn't take very high APM to play it at a low-mid level or very much micro. However, it's as balanced as every other race.
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On September 30 2008 04:05 freshtowers wrote:
What's all this talk about vultures> zealots? if the units were switched protoss would never win. Their power is that they're melee and how about those 50 mineral templars? one click to wipe out an entire army, even better than vultures. Protoss not having as many micro options as terran doesn't matter because terran has to do all that just to be on the same level as protoss so having 400 apm is just there to equalize the playing field, if you don't do that protoss will own you because of how strong arbiters and all zealots are even without micro.
Are you playing the same game as us?
Templar cost 150 gas, not to mention the expensive upgrades for them.
They die with like 2 vulture hits and are ridiculously easy to micro, and one storm doesn't kill an army.... not only is the area of one storm not big enough to kill a terran army (the units are so big you don't cover many of them), but it takes two storms to kill a tank.
Arbiters are strong huh? Oh wait all you have to do is EMP them and they are useless. Zealots aren't strong if you know how to use vultures.
On September 30 2008 05:55 Krohm wrote:
Don't get me wrong though, I do find it balanced. Terran just has to work so much harder than the Protoss.
You guys are retarded. You keep saying this bullshit statement over and over. THE GAME IS NOT BALANCED IF ITS HARDER FOR ONE RACE THAN THE OTHER. That's practically the definition of balance. That's like if terran had some super unit that was clearly imbalanced and I just said "well you just have to work harder so your macro is better so you have enough units to overpower it"
Stop trying to be bitches and pretend like it's harder for one race but is still balanced. It's either balanced or it's not, you just want to make yourself feel better.
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On September 30 2008 07:02 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2008 04:05 freshtowers wrote:
What's all this talk about vultures> zealots? if the units were switched protoss would never win. Their power is that they're melee and how about those 50 mineral templars? one click to wipe out an entire army, even better than vultures. Protoss not having as many micro options as terran doesn't matter because terran has to do all that just to be on the same level as protoss so having 400 apm is just there to equalize the playing field, if you don't do that protoss will own you because of how strong arbiters and all zealots are even without micro.
Are you playing the same game as us? Templar cost 150 gas, not to mention the expensive upgrades for them. They die with like 2 vulture hits and are ridiculously easy to micro, and one storm doesn't kill an army.... not only is the area of one storm not big enough to kill a terran army (the units are so big you don't cover many of them), but it takes two storms to kill a tank. Arbiters are strong huh? Oh wait all you have to do is EMP them and they are useless. Zealots aren't strong if you know how to use vultures. Show nested quote +On September 30 2008 05:55 Krohm wrote:
Don't get me wrong though, I do find it balanced. Terran just has to work so much harder than the Protoss. You guys are retarded. You keep saying this bullshit statement over and over. THE GAME IS NOT BALANCED IF ITS HARDER FOR ONE RACE THAN THE OTHER. That's practically the definition of balance. That's like if terran had some super unit that was clearly imbalanced and I just said "well you just have to work harder so your macro is better so you have enough units to overpower it" Stop trying to be bitches and pretend like it's harder for one race but is still balanced. It's either balanced or it's not, you just want to make yourself feel better.
I love you. I LOVE YOU.
QUOTED FOR THE FUCKING TRUTH!
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United States10774 Posts
On September 30 2008 05:55 Krohm wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2008 05:06 TheYango wrote:On September 29 2008 20:51 Krohm wrote:
Vulture = 75 mins
Dragoon = 125 mins, 50 gas
1 Dragoon > 50 Vultures without mines.
But really, comparing a vulture to a zealot isn't exactly a valid argument.Since vultures are 2nd(1.5'ish) Tier units. Mines = 100 mins, 100 gas 2x Vulture = 6x Mines = 150 mins 2x Dragoons = 250 Mins, 100 gas 6x Mines > 2x Dragoons This type of argument isn't valid, period, because of the way both sides can keep on 1-upping each other. What can be said is that the vulture is much more cost-effective than any unit that the protoss can throw at it, given its versatility, speed, and, when necessary, straight up damage. In terms of pure cost-effectiveness, there are very few units in the game that match the vulture. I am noob.
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Booooo Haters !
Protoss are sexy 
Is there a Terran or Zerg unit cuter than the probe ?
Do they have cool cats like bengalas ?
Seriously you guys are jealous whiners.
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On September 30 2008 05:30 QuietIdiot wrote:
PvT at a low level is hilariously easy.
Through D-C+ all I did was the "rock build."
Basically just go 2 gate pressure, expo robo, dual reaver drop/harass, expo, zeal speed +2 stargate carriers.
More than half the people I met barely had the nerves or edge to take it on.
However when you hit the B range, the skill required for PvT suddenly raises off the roof and it just becomes insanely hard(edit:mmm insanely hard is an exaggeration, but I meant it in the sense that the skill required just suddenly leaps up from C to B). because many scenarios end up being this tedious game of rock-paper-scissors countering timing pushes. Good TvPers just read you like a book and you end up getting your pants down if you aren't careful, and you cannot simply 1a2a3a4a your way into victory, you have to make sure your zeals and goons are well spread out and your shuttle drops with either templars/reavers are by your army but not next to it, enough in the range to storm tanks/vults and retreat.
You also have to see cost effective scenarios, when to withdraw and reload, or the terran will simply steamroll you afterwards.
And seriously late game, terran upgrades are ridiculous to combat against, that whole 1a2a3a4a can be applied to a maxed out T army, and the toss has to storm/stasis very meticulously, but thats not even a guarantee because by then its likely they'll throw down EMPS and you have to make sure your spellcasters in entirely different hotkey group sets so they don't end up cluttered.
But in the general and the main point the OP mentioned, I do believe Protoss has the easiest learning curve, but to master it takes considerable depth. We are prone to timing pushes, have the weakest scouting, weakest adaptability, and having the wrong combination of units is far more punishable than the other races. In the higher echelons of starcraft, I believe it requires a good sixth sense to be a great protoss player more than having pitch perfect mechanics. There are exceptions like rock and backho making it out on top, but they play so risky and luck out many cases its unfair to blame the entire race. Think Silver or even frozean who luck out with risky and cheesy tactics, they're just the same in that manner. Unfortunately many simpletons who enter maining our race due to its elementary nature at first end up stagnating later on due to their incapable ability to foresee scenarios, hence the stereotype that protoss players are all tards, ramming their units onto walls head first.
this
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Calgary26003 Posts
On September 30 2008 05:23 nAi.PrOtOsS wrote:
I think your just looking at it to generally, the thing that seperate's pros is strategical thinking not game mechanics.
Starting off as protoss is hard especially in pvz (TOSSGIRL?)
Mid is sort of easy as you say since it's a balance of a bit of strategical but mostly mechanics.
And higher lvl is hardest of all (in my oppinion) because it's mostly strategical and the easy mechanics don't come into play.
I think its all balanced and that you cant just look at one part of the game.
It would be liek saying zerg is imba because 4 zerglings that cost 100 minerals in total rape a zeo which costs 100 minerals aswell.
ZERG IMBA!!
It's really not like that at all. I gave definitive examples (build time, hearty units, tactics playing less of a role) and you gave no examples to refute that. When you refute my examples, why don't you actually talk about what I said, instead of showing some analogy that doesn't relate to anything either of us has mentioned.
On September 30 2008 07:02 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2008 04:05 freshtowers wrote:
What's all this talk about vultures> zealots? if the units were switched protoss would never win. Their power is that they're melee and how about those 50 mineral templars? one click to wipe out an entire army, even better than vultures. Protoss not having as many micro options as terran doesn't matter because terran has to do all that just to be on the same level as protoss so having 400 apm is just there to equalize the playing field, if you don't do that protoss will own you because of how strong arbiters and all zealots are even without micro.
Are you playing the same game as us? Templar cost 150 gas, not to mention the expensive upgrades for them. They die with like 2 vulture hits and are ridiculously easy to micro, and one storm doesn't kill an army.... not only is the area of one storm not big enough to kill a terran army (the units are so big you don't cover many of them), but it takes two storms to kill a tank. Arbiters are strong huh? Oh wait all you have to do is EMP them and they are useless. Zealots aren't strong if you know how to use vultures. Show nested quote +On September 30 2008 05:55 Krohm wrote:
Don't get me wrong though, I do find it balanced. Terran just has to work so much harder than the Protoss. You guys are retarded. You keep saying this bullshit statement over and over. THE GAME IS NOT BALANCED IF ITS HARDER FOR ONE RACE THAN THE OTHER. That's practically the definition of balance. That's like if terran had some super unit that was clearly imbalanced and I just said "well you just have to work harder so your macro is better so you have enough units to overpower it" Stop trying to be bitches and pretend like it's harder for one race but is still balanced. It's either balanced or it's not, you just want to make yourself feel better.
I'm not saying this to make myself feel better. The game isn't balanced at mid levels, and the examples of this are foreigner results, race distribution throughout foreign tournaments and ladders. Your own argument is your downfall; Look at the TSL racial distribution at any round of the tournament or the ICCup racial distribution Protoss will always be #1.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 30 2008 05:55 Krohm wrote:
Don't get me wrong though, I do find it balanced. Terran just has to work so much harder than the Protoss.
Mechanically, yes.
IMO timing and game sense are much less forgiving on the Protoss player, however, since the onus of breaking the Terran push is ultimately on the Protoss player. The thing is, these aren't considered more "work" to many low- and mid-level players, since these things are largely learnt across many games; put another way, they don't equate to more actions, but instead WHEN and WHERE those actions are used. Learning to time your break, however, is just as hard as learning how to micro Terran units rather than 1a2a3a4a, it just doesn't FEEL like it is.
Admittedly, there is a level where the game sense and the timing are all there, but the APM/micro isn't, but I doubt that the majority of people complaining in this thread are at that level. I do acknowledge though, that there are people at that level (as Chill pointed out, look at the TSL race distribution). For the majority of people, however, the balance is there.
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Its funny how some people complain that so many people play protoss and then mention that protoss is at the top in most statistics? Duh.
I think that to play protoss like other people have said you actually need to develop a 6th sense to be able to predict what the opponent is doing, a lot of the time it's guessing. Maybe protoss mechanics are easier, but I would rather have super nearly impossible to master mechanics then having to guess what the opponent is doing.
Knowledge is power, and protoss has less tools to gather knowledge then any other race, so therefore we are less power full?
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I started playing protoss a year ago, just because I thought they looked cool :p
I loved dts and carriers and shit from playing single player, so I continued playing toss when I got my cdkey and entered battle.net.
In retrospect, I regret not playing terran or zerg.
Last season I played hard for a few weeks and managed to get C-, and was really happy about it, but it doesnt really feel like much of an accomplishment when you chat on #teamliquid, and everyone says its piss easy to play toss, and my C- toss was equal to a D-level zerg or terran.
So I started playing zerg and terran for a few days, and yes - it is harder.
There is no reason to try to convince yourself otherwise.
After a day or two, I got around 1500 rating as zerg, then I stopped playing for a couple of weeks.
Im sure I could've gotten low D+ if I practice some more build orders and stuff, but I did what came to mind.
I have to say however, if you open with a FE build in PvZ, I think its harder to play protoss than zerg during the early game, due to all the scouting you have to do, and if your BO is slightly off, you can risk getting owned really hard by mutas.
By all means once you get passed the early game, im pretty convinced that playing zerg is more difficult.
But if you get owned couse of something that happened in the early game, as a Zerg player in ZvP, and blame it zerg beeing more difficult to play, im gonna call bs.
This was messy and stuff, good night.
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On September 30 2008 09:19 nAi.PrOtOsS wrote:
Its funny how some people complain that so many people play protoss and then mention that protoss is at the top in most statistics? Duh.
I think that to play protoss like other people have said you actually need to develop a 6th sense to be able to predict what the opponent is doing, a lot of the time it's guessing. Maybe protoss mechanics are easier, but I would rather have super nearly impossible to master mechanics then having to guess what the opponent is doing.
Knowledge is power, and protoss has less tools to gather knowledge then any other race, so therefore we are less power full?
how do you have less knowledge than the other races? PvT, protoss almost always has map control, and the vision that entails, they have an observer over the choke and factories, which means they have a constant view of unit production and positioning; basically its like permanent comsat. when a terran pushes, protoss can see exactly when terran is weak and unsieged, so dont give me the "we cant see anything" argument.
PvZ, you have easy probe scouting until he gets ling speed. Then you get a corsair. Honestly, I can understand why its frustrating trying to detect early ling and hydra all-ins, but outside of early game, you either have sairs scouting around the map, or a fairly mobile and strong protoss force lumbering around the map.
just go watch a zvt rep, with only the zerg vision, and then you will see what having little information is like. Zerg cant send a cloaked overlord into the middle of the terran main, so you know what they do? Keep a couple lings near his force so you can see the size of his force, maintain map control, and make sure you keep on top of the expansions you can take. (hint: do something like this in pvt)
don't boohoo about scouting when you have a cloaked fucking flying unit for one supply
I mean honestly, protoss is very difficult at high levels, but dont even try and argue toss is the hardest in the D ranks
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Have any of these "LOL YOU GUYS ARE NOOBS" even tried any other race, other than Protoss?
I've had all my races as my "main" at one point or another. Protoss is so much easier to use. Ugh, I give up. Keep using your "Easy Mode" race, then call everyone else a moron for trying to prove valid points.
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United States10774 Posts
On September 30 2008 10:13 Krohm wrote:
Have any of these "LOL YOU GUYS ARE NOOBS" even tried any other race, other than Protoss?
I've had all my races as my "main" at one point or another. Protoss is so much easier to use. Ugh, I give up. Keep using your "Easy Mode" race, then call everyone else a moron for trying to prove valid points.
I played Zerg for 6 years before switching to Protoss about a year ago. Although I guess you can make an argument that my skill level was higher by the time I switched to Protoss, it was definitely not easier than Zerg. I found PvT to be harder than ZvT, actually.
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sigh everyone who says p is easy please go and play it, and if you whine any more then quit the fucking game since it's so fucking imbalanced.
Personally i have played zerg and terran before i became a protoss player and in my oppinion they are much easier.
when I was around C- protoss i had massive problems with zerg, even if I didnt die early game i would lose to either ultra/ling late game, or i would lose to spore/lurk. PvZ is easier now but still not easy, sometimes u lose to 4/5/7 pool or you lose to 3 hatch hydra, or to any 2 hatch build. There is so many things a zerg can do early game its frustrating. Then in late game you have to deal with stupid ass ult/ling and stop expos and watch for drops and watch for swarm. Just trying to expo somtiems vs zerg is a pain in the cock since they have speed lings which run in and rape ur expo attempt. So most times protoss has to "1a2a3a" with his da/reaver/zeo/archon army while macroing and aiming reavers and letting off storms and pulling back hurt archons, and watching expos to make sure he doesnt run in with some lings and rape ur expo in 2 seconds. So easy. Especialy sair, reaver it's such an easy strat to pull off, i feel like bisu everytime i do it.
When i was C- protoss PvT was sooooooo easy, but now it is ridiculasly hard. It could be because the way i play pvt, i play extremely defencivly and macro ative. I react to what the terran does, and expo while i kill terrans expos. The problem with this is that new maps such as andromeda, are fucking me over since my stratigy relied a lot on stopping the terran from getting a 3rd expo, but now they get it so easily. And once you get to late game vs a terran, it get's so hard. YOU MuST FlANCK OR U LOSE. Usually if a terran has camped he will come at you with--> Vessels(EMP) No more statis, proly lose all the energy on 2 out of ur 3 ht. and of course all the energy off wat ever units it hits. So now your in a situation where you can either let the terran expo, or your could attack and die, or you could wait a bit build up minerals/gas get ready to mass cars and then suicide ur units (attack) and hope to fuck that he doesnt rape you before your carriers are out, and then you can micro your cars vs 3-3 gols  )
Or the terran could do a timing push which is also a massive pain in the cock, especially if they stop scv to make more army quicker. Which you prolly won't kno if they stop scv since all terrans make turrents all over there base.
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On September 30 2008 11:00 nAi.PrOtOsS wrote:
sigh everyone who says p is easy please go and play it, and if you whine any more then quit the fucking game since it's so fucking imbalanced.
Protoss is easy.
I've played it as my main race for over a year, and I acknowledge that after playing all the races.
Everyone can watch something and say "hey, that looks really easy".
That is exactly what you're doing when you're getting rolled by other zergs and terrans.
You feel like you're doing a hell of a job when you're playing, but it just isnt enough.
Don't let your judgement get clouded because of that.
Starcraft is a difficult game with an average level of skill thats ridiculous compared to other games.
Just because protoss is easy compared to other classes, doesnt mean that its easy. Its just less-difficult.
Edit: Now that you edited your post, its obvious that you have more gaming experience than me, so what I wrote probably doesnt apply to you, but thats at least how I felt it at the beginning.
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There are no good/bad races, nor easy/hard.
There are good/bad players.
If you lost a game, then the opponent was probably better than you.
PvT is just as easy in the D as it is in the B+ levels.
Its a match slightly skewed towards the Protoss, in most maps.
What might anyone feel any different is that D level players are too incompetent too play the match properly, so its even easier to win with cheap ass builds or harass.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 30 2008 09:54 fusionsdf wrote:
PvZ, you have easy probe scouting until he gets ling speed. Then you get a corsair. Honestly, I can understand why its frustrating trying to detect early ling and hydra all-ins, but outside of early game, you either have sairs scouting around the map, or a fairly mobile and strong protoss force lumbering around the map.
Except those few minutes where you have to basically guess whether he's doing a hydra all-in or expanding, etc., etc., is more unforgiving of errors than any other similar situations for other races, because of the fact that switching/starting tech is so slow for protoss because of their long build times.
Quite frankly this primarily isn't an argument about Protoss being easy, but an argument about PvT being slightly skewed toward P. How many of the people who are complaining about the imbalance are zerg players? Unless someone can prove me wrong, I'm inclined to believe that most of the people complaining here are Terran players, since most of the discussion is centered around PvT. TvZ is slightly skewed toward Terran, and ZvP is slightly skewed toward zerg. This is true across the board, not just at some level of skill. PvT, TvZ, and ZvP are supposed to be the "safe, fall-back" matchups for Protoss, Terran, and Zerg respectively.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 30 2008 10:13 Krohm wrote:
Have any of these "LOL YOU GUYS ARE NOOBS" even tried any other race, other than Protoss?
I've had all my races as my "main" at one point or another. Protoss is so much easier to use. Ugh, I give up. Keep using your "Easy Mode" race, then call everyone else a moron for trying to prove valid points.
Its "easy mode" when your probe scout gets killed, you're forced to play blind for lack of overlords and comsat for 2 minutes, and when your corsair pops, you find out you prepared for the wrong build (prepared for 4-hatch hydra when he went for lurks, etc.)? You can't afford to wait for the corsair scout to find his tech, because given Protoss' slow build times, and you've got at best a 50% chance of guessing the right build.
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EPT
