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I was playing chess today and I randomly remembered a quote from bogoljubow.
Here's how it went:
"If I'm white, I win because I'm white. If I'm black, I win because I'm Bogoljubow."
After thinking about this for a moment, I realized that this quote is easily applicable to Starcraft.
Here's what it is in Starcraft:
"If I'm Protoss, I win because I'm Protoss. If I'm terran, I win because I am SiegetanksandBlueGoo."
There seems to be a contradiction here in the fact that I never win as terran without cheese, but ignoring that, let's explore why the other two races dislike Protoss so much.
Why is Protoss such a feared and hated race? Is it because the mechanics are easier to master or because the units themselves are a lot more powerful. Is it due to the complete lack of need for flanking in lower level protoss play or the variety of paths the protoss can take when teching up. Is it just the innate advantage of the Protoss race and the players that gravitate to such a race?
If so, then why are all the top and dominant players Terrans and Zerg? I think someone mentioned this somewhere, but in the top 10 peak elos, only Stork for the Protoss is there. What makes Protoss weak against the other races in the very top ranks? Is it that the Protoss FE is always vulnerable to cheeses like 4 pools, or that the Protoss has a certain peak for PvT. When playing TvP for example, Terrans with more APM can always mine up the map a lot, set up their tanks better, prepare drops and look for timing push openings. As far as Protoss goes, even at the very highest levels, there doesn't seem to be much more in the PvT matchup other than mass units, or good carrier micro.
Maybe this is why Kang Min was so revered. He brought change and a freshness to the highest level protoss players, that no one else has imitated because there is a limit to how good a playercan be at PvT.
Thanks for Reading this. 
Feel free to flame.
 
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I agree. I tink it's because it is the mechanics and how it gives the lower level players an advantage over similar level terrans or zergs
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Zerg and terran benefit more from a super high level of mechanics. Where as protoss doesn't benefit as much.
But protoss is less mechanic demanding. ie units take longer to build and are more expensive.
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protoss requires more thinking and less mechanics thats why its a little easier to play at lower levels where players dont have time to actually practice mechanics
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".. or because the units are more powerful" - I just.. no. Your nick says it all, damn tanks.
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On September 29 2008 06:44 daz wrote:
protoss requires more thinking and less mechanics thats why its a little easier to play at lower levels where players dont have time to actually practice mechanics
in my opinion, playing terran takes just as much thinking.. but whatever
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On September 29 2008 06:43 stanley_ wrote:
Zerg and terran benefit more from a super high level of mechanics. Where as protoss doesn't benefit as much.
But protoss is less mechanic demanding. ie units take longer to build and are more expensive.
This.
And that's a problem, because Protoss will always be the "easy mode" race for most if not all foreigners; it will only stop being a problem once you have 250, maybe even 300+ APM. I.e. once you're fast enough to become a progamer. Then all races are equally playable, and while you could argue that some matchups are maybe slightly imba (T>Z, Z>P, P>T), it's really mostly about map balance and player skill/form/luck. So that's OK. Starcraft is "balanced enough" on pro level, it's probably not worth bitching about certain maps or matchups because all in all each race has a few star players who have won a lot of tournaments or who are at least very close to achieving that (e.g. Stork, the eternal 2nd place).
But for non-progamers, i.e. foreigners especially, mechanics are what determines how easy or hard one race is to play. Foreigners struggle with Terrans because it's too mechanically demanding (Korean pros don't care about that because they all have top-notch mechanics), and there are lots of incredibly strong Protosses because they're much easier in that regard.
Zerg is medium difficulty for foreigners. While they DO require a lot of mechanics/multitasking because of all those units and hatcheries placed all over the map, this is probably because once you have a strong eco and many hatches, you can pump units easily and very fast, and that helps, this makes them easier to play than Terran but still harder than Protoss.
This is a sad situation, but I think it's an intrinsic problem of the 3 races. Protoss have few units and they have lots of hit points, so they will always be the best choice for mechanically "weak" players. Even if SC2 introduces MBS or other things so that Z and T macro becomes less mechanically demanding, because then P players will also have more time, and they'll use that in another area instead (better micro, additional drops, whatever), so they'll still keep their advantage.
I think there's nothing which could change this, unless you do something ridiculous like "Terran and Zerg get MBS, but Protoss does not" -- which would be a funny solution, but too inconsistent and weird, and it also might make Protoss too hard for the pro level then.
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i just hate protoss, nothing else to it
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On September 29 2008 06:25 SiegeTanksandBlueGoo wrote:
there is a limit to how good a playercan be at PvT.
Feel free to flame.
- Stormdrops
- Reaverdrops
No one has used this to the fullest yet, except IntoTheRainBow maybe. And im talking late game, not early.
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fyi: Best and Jangbi are in the top 10 ELO.
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Protoss are hated for one reason.
1a2a3a4a
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high level has less toss cuz you can only 1a2a3a4a5a so many times before people catch on
other than that i hate toss because of storm (i'm a zerg player)
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I don't hate Protoss, but I think it's because the other races see Protoss as taking less overall work. The only thing I hate about Protoss (as a Zerg user) is mass corsair with storm/reaver.. and turtling with mass cannons.
But I find Terran much more annoying. Pretty much every game is the same damn thing, mass mmf with tanks and vessels. At least there's variety with Protoss.
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On September 29 2008 07:58 capek wrote:
fyi: Best and Jangbi are in the top 10 ELO.
He means all-time, not current, though Best does come in at #11 in all-time.
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Sounds like a failed attempt to be Plexa here.
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You know what's ironic is that when I picked protoss it's because I thought terran was imba (tank gayness) and zerg was imba (5pool gayness) so I wanted to pick the weaker race so that I wouldn't be viewed as an imba jackass.
LOLOLOL LOOK HOW WELL THAT TURNED OUT
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Protoss just needs good control
Macro i think, is the easiest for protoss because its cost and expenses are pretty high up there
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Everyone who thinks protoss is so easy is a fucking joke. You can die so fast to stupid shit as a protoss, your scouting and timing has to be so good or else you basically auto die. Lets go over super gay shit for protoss match ups...
PVT:
Terran can easily rape protoss in many different ways. They can camp and be very harrasive and rape the protoss's eco with vultures that cost 75 minerals and you get 3 mines that do 125 dmg with splash. Terrans ability to scan takes all the guessing out of tvp. Or they can do a timing push, based on the imformation they have gathered from SCANNING and completely rape the protoss.
To beat a camping harrassing terran a protoss has to expo quite a bit, and MAKE 100% sure that there is no mines in the path where the probes are getting transferd and that each expo is defended nicely again cheap ass vultures and tank drops, that rape not only 20 probes in about 3 seconds but also kill a nexus in about 30 seconds (2 tanks).
Scouting is so important in this matchup to stop expoing, timing pushes, drops. If a terran cuts scv to push faster and you don't see you lose, if a terran pushes somewhere your not expecting and your out of position gg. If he drops while your not at your base and rapes your eco gg.
And late game with carrier? Unlike terran who gets ground unit upgrade for attack and armor which obviously effects gols as well, protoss has to upgrade carriers. So when your carriers come out it will be 3/3 gols vs 0/0 maybe 0/1 carriers. = rape
PVZ: (THIS IS FOR YOUR ARB SAYING P IS EaSY?!?!?!)
Mid game its pretty easy for protoss im not going to lie, but early game where protoss has to scout everything perfectly, or else he will lose, and even if he does scout a certain tech, he has to disregard it because the zerg can switch tech in like 20 seconds. If you make to many cannons you will be behind mid game and if you dont make enough you will die, You make cannons based on what you scout, but even if you scout it you may have to disregard it.
If protoss doesn't make corsairs then zerg can send his ol's every where and see every little thing a protoss does. And then late game they get these invinsible ultras and crackling that comepltly rape. Crack drops can take out a protoss base in about 15 seconds. And also who came up with SWARM?!?!?!? Defiler's can consume about 3 zerglings that cost in total 150 minerals, and then swarm which is basicaly an auto kill of an expo even if it is protected by 999999 cannons.
Protoss has to guess a lot and actually use game sense unlike terran who can scan and see anything he wants anytime he wants, and zerg who can send his overlord's all over the map and scout everthing at once for the entire game.
If you ask me zerg and terran are easy.
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On September 29 2008 09:54 nAi.PrOtOsS wrote:
Everyone who thinks protoss is so easy is a fucking joke.
I think no one really says that, only that they're easiER (than Z or T). :p
Every race is hard to play well, but Ps are more likely to have more success at the non-pro levels, so a dedicated P player will reach the top faster than a dedicated Z or T player -- at least the top foreign level, it's probably not true for Korean pros (I guess it's still Terran there because T is much easier once your mechanics are ridiculously good, and there are still so many Terran progamers it's ridiculous (and in the foreign scene there are tons of Protosses instead, surprise surprise)).
and MAKE 100% sure that there is no mines in the path where the probes are getting transferd
Workers don't trigger mines.
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On September 29 2008 09:54 nAi.PrOtOsS wrote:
Terran can easily rape protoss in many different ways. They can camp and be very harrasive and rape the protoss's eco with vultures that cost 75 minerals and you get 3 mines that do 125 dmg with splash. Terrans ability to scan takes all the guessing out of tvp. Or they can do a timing push, based on the imformation they have gathered from SCANNING and completely rape the protoss.
god
I know exactly how you feel
if only protoss had a unit that could watch terran for you in return
you could call it a watcher, and it would make cute mechanical sounds when you clicked on it.
I'm really hyped on this idea, so I hope they include it in sc2
obviously right now without 'watcher's starcraft is super imbalanced
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ps they should really give comsat like 5 energy points
right now, with 4 scans
I mean 4 scans is like the whole fucking map
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On September 29 2008 10:01 0xDEADBEEF wrote:
Workers don't trigger mines.
He meant that if T sees you maynarding your probes with a mine...then there are gonna be some horny vultures ready to kill ur maynarding probes o.o
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<rant>Protoss is hated for the same reason ZvP used to be imba, you all need a reason to suck ass at this game. i.e.- "I PLAY TERRAN AND ITS SO MUCH HARDER LOL!", now we all know the basic "Protoss is easy theory" (its easy at low levels but equal at higher levels) WHAT THE FUCK!? Basically on the level that 90% of TL members are on you make so many mistakes that you might as well not have mechanics, in fact they arent called mechanics they are just lucky ass key strokes you happened to make. So quit bitching because you suck ass at PvT cuz I offrace TvP all the time and just do some damn cheez and win, if you actually play the damn race man up and learn to win a fucking game you moronic pieces of shit. GOD! I must have lost over 200 PvT games before I felt confident in teh matchup but thats part of the game, its called practice, revolutionary concept which has kept me at least level throughout the years. So shut the fuck up and go play TvP you whiney little bastards, because everyone of you should know how to build a turret and push O.
<./rant>
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I kno mines done set off probes but probes move slow as shit and vults move so fast, so if you t sees u transfer and sends vult u just lost all probe.
**EDIT**
On September 29 2008 10:14 fusionsdf wrote:
ps they should really give comsat like 5 energy points
right now, with 4 scans
I mean 4 scans is like the whole fucking map
No it's not a lot of scan but, you already have mines which can easily cover every expo a protoss can take. So the scans are primarily for scanning a protoss's main base to see what there doing.
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United States24600 Posts
Before bisu nobody ever said it lol
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IMO... If there is any reason to say protoss is easy-win, it's because the cheese strats are so much more volumous, accessible and easy to pull off. 4 DT in a shuttle, 2 reaver in a shuttle, lowliest fighting unit being so strong... At the lower levels of play, a 4 DT drop is so much easier to execute than it is for the opposing player to defend against. Same goes for the other protoss cheeses. But I do think protoss has an incredibly hard time at the upper levels of gaming. Terran and Zerg with decent upgrades just seem so fucking imba when you're toss sometimes, even 1-1.
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On September 29 2008 10:43 micronesia wrote:
Before bisu nobody ever said it lol
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On September 29 2008 08:08 arb wrote:
Protoss are hated for one reason.
1a2a3a4a
probably the main reason. plus, too many people play toss.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 29 2008 10:14 fusionsdf wrote:
ps they should really give comsat like 5 energy points
right now, with 4 scans
I mean 4 scans is like the whole fucking map
Because clearly, you're going to be playing with only one ComSat Station the whole game.
Yes, the mechanics for Protoss are easier. IMO that still doesn't mean that they're an easier race to play. Game sense and timing aren't easy to learn by any stretch of the imagination.
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lol Bisu and Stork are probably the most influential progamers, behind Boxer. Before those two, apparently all Protoss players whined and cried about how "weak" their race is, and how "imba" PvZ is. Then Bisu and Stork came along, and flipped it upside down. Now everyone else whines and cries about Protoss.
I mean, its impossible for anyone to lose against a Protoss player because the Protoss player is better than they are. I can just join a game on iccup, and type '1a2a3a4a' and then hit 't', and I win automatically without even having to play the game. </sarcasm>
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edit. read the thread wrong
Just who cares what other people think if you like protoss play protoss
stupid protoss 1a2a3a4a bandwagon
also SHORTEN YOUR NAME
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Guys play PvT at the C level.
Then talk.
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very true
at c level pvt you graduate to occasionally hitting the t key
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On September 29 2008 09:54 nAi.PrOtOsS wrote:
Terran can easily rape protoss in many different ways. They can camp and be very harrasive and rape the protoss's eco with vultures that cost 75 minerals and you get 3 mines that do 125 dmg with splash. Terrans ability to scan takes all the guessing out of tvp. Or they can do a timing push, based on the imformation they have gathered from SCANNING and completely rape the protoss.
On September 29 2008 09:54 nAi.PrOtOsS wrote:
Protoss can easily rape terran in many different ways. They can rush and be very aggressive and rape the terran's marines with zealots that cost 100 minerals and you get 3 rines+ to kill that do little dmg with no armour. Protoss' ability to make observers takes all the guessing out of PvT. Or they can do a storm/reaver drop, based on the information they have gathered from invisible observers and completely rape the terran.
Fixed
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On September 29 2008 13:06 fusionsdf wrote:
very true
at c level pvt you graduate to occasionally hitting the t key
lmao
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United States10774 Posts
On September 29 2008 13:06 fusionsdf wrote:
very true
at c level pvt you graduate to occasionally hitting the t key
D- nubs should keep quiet l0l~
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On September 29 2008 10:27 Sp1ralArch1tect wrote:
<rant>Protoss is hated for the same reason ZvP used to be imba, you all need a reason to suck ass at this game. i.e.- "I PLAY TERRAN AND ITS SO MUCH HARDER LOL!", now we all know the basic "Protoss is easy theory" (its easy at low levels but equal at higher levels) WHAT THE FUCK!? Basically on the level that 90% of TL members are on you make so many mistakes that you might as well not have mechanics, in fact they arent called mechanics they are just lucky ass key strokes you happened to make. So quit bitching because you suck ass at PvT cuz I offrace TvP all the time and just do some damn cheez and win, if you actually play the damn race man up and learn to win a fucking game you moronic pieces of shit. GOD! I must have lost over 200 PvT games before I felt confident in teh matchup but thats part of the game, its called practice, revolutionary concept which has kept me at least level throughout the years. So shut the fuck up and go play TvP you whiney little bastards, because everyone of you should know how to build a turret and push O.
<./rant>
I love you.
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1a2a3a fosho
but if i use the same apm in terran i get X units
and if i use the same apm in toss i get B units
but B units is always way more WAYYYYY moRE!!!
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United States10774 Posts
On September 29 2008 16:30 smoke2k wrote:
1a2a3a fosho
but if i use the same apm in terran i get X units
and if i use the same apm in toss i get B units
but B units is always way more WAYYYYY moRE!!!
but u getz 2 zerglingz from one egg
hence
B x 2 = zerg
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On September 29 2008 08:08 arb wrote:
Protoss are hated for one reason.
1a2a3a4a
Funny how protoss players are hated because peopel say they're attack move, when zerg players are the ones that are always complaining htat it's hard to 1a2a3a4a5a6a7a8a9a0a so many units.
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United States10774 Posts
On September 29 2008 13:06 Grobyc wrote:Fixed
Fixed.
Vultures = 75 mins
Zealots = 100 mins
Vultures>Zealots
Vultures = 3 spider mines + instant probe rape
???
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Yeah I've always said the vulture is the most imba unit in the game.
I just 1v1 PvT'd and the terran had about 40 vultures and just like 12 tanks. I couldn't get a single unit near the tanks.... so if I tried to attack the tanks my units'd get raped by the vultures, and if i tried to attack the vultures my units'd get raped by the tanks.
It was so bullshit it was ridiculous. I tried zealot bombing but 1: his mines were so good there were never anywhere near his tanks ever and 2: he had a couple gols in with his vults so no good
I tried storming but since vultures ARE ALSO THE FASTEST FUCKING UNIT IN THE GAME (who the fuck thought this fucking shit up? Hey let's make the best unit in the game cost the least) he would just micro out of the storms instantly, not to mention snipe my templar in between battles.
God damn vultures are sooooo imba.
All you people that complain about TvP, just get like 40 vultures and make a swarm around your tanks so nothing can get near.
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I skipped most replies here, cause they must be crap posted by "new-schoolers".
I remember back few years ago when PvZ was fucking impossible... I mean even WCG player had to cheat even get to B6 ranks(Talking about Gorky).... And top30 was like 25zergs and rest T/P.
Protoss easiest race to cheese ? Try 4pool or 8rax.
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Protoss might have the easiest mechanics early on, but Protoss takes a lot of skill to use. No one race is easier then the other, you just have to play differently with each one, as each race utilizes a different type of play. If you aren't adept at a certain style, then that race may seem like it's much harder.
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On September 29 2008 16:44 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2008 13:06 Grobyc wrote:On September 29 2008 09:54 nAi.PrOtOsS wrote:
vultures that cost 75 minerals On September 29 2008 09:54 nAi.PrOtOsS wrote:
zealots that cost 100 minerals Fixed Fixed. Vultures = 75 mins Zealots = 100 mins Vultures>Zealots Vultures = 3 spider mines + instant probe rape ???
There is a flaw in your theory.
Vulture = 75 mins
Dragoon = 125 mins, 50 gas
1 Dragoon > 50 Vultures without mines.
But really, comparing a vulture to a zealot isn't exactly a valid argument.Since vultures are 2nd(1.5'ish) Tier units.
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On September 29 2008 20:51 Krohm wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2008 16:44 OneOther wrote:On September 29 2008 13:06 Grobyc wrote:On September 29 2008 09:54 nAi.PrOtOsS wrote:
vultures that cost 75 minerals On September 29 2008 09:54 nAi.PrOtOsS wrote:
zealots that cost 100 minerals Fixed Fixed. Vultures = 75 mins Zealots = 100 mins Vultures>Zealots Vultures = 3 spider mines + instant probe rape ??? There is a flaw in your theory. Vulture = 75 mins Dragoon = 125 mins, 50 gas 1 Dragoon > 50 Vultures without mines. But really, comparing a vulture to a zealot isn't exactly a valid argument.Since vultures are 2nd(1.5'ish) Tier units.
I believe 3 vultures beat 1 goon.
ALSO WHY DID YOU SAY WITHOUT MINES? With 3 vults (more than you need), you have 9 mines. If you're going up against 1 goon you are absolutely terrible and need to uninstall now if you can't beat the goon with your 9 mines.
Tier isn't the factor here anyways. Its not like protoss has a second tier unit that counters better than the zealot does.
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On September 29 2008 16:44 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2008 08:08 arb wrote:
Protoss are hated for one reason.
1a2a3a4a Funny how protoss players are hated because peopel say they're attack move, when zerg players are the ones that are always complaining htat it's hard to 1a2a3a4a5a6a7a8a9a0a so many units.
the difference is that there's a lot more units for zerg, PLUS 1a2a3a4a for toss refers to how you can just attack move without flanking. do that with zerg and you're gonna die. zerglings in a line without a flank? asking for death right there. toss in a line without a flank? not as bad, because each unit has so much hp.
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United States10774 Posts
On September 29 2008 20:51 Krohm wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2008 16:44 OneOther wrote:On September 29 2008 13:06 Grobyc wrote:On September 29 2008 09:54 nAi.PrOtOsS wrote:
vultures that cost 75 minerals On September 29 2008 09:54 nAi.PrOtOsS wrote:
zealots that cost 100 minerals Fixed Fixed. Vultures = 75 mins Zealots = 100 mins Vultures>Zealots Vultures = 3 spider mines + instant probe rape ??? There is a flaw in your theory. Vulture = 75 mins Dragoon = 125 mins, 50 gas 1 Dragoon > 50 Vultures without mines. But really, comparing a vulture to a zealot isn't exactly a valid argument.Since vultures are 2nd(1.5'ish) Tier units.
vultures>zealots
tanks>dragoons
????
(btw, I actually think the game is balanced.)
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this
On September 29 2008 10:27 Sp1ralArch1tect wrote:
<rant>Protoss is hated for the same reason ZvP used to be imba, you all need a reason to suck ass at this game. i.e.- "I PLAY TERRAN AND ITS SO MUCH HARDER LOL!", now we all know the basic "Protoss is easy theory" (its easy at low levels but equal at higher levels) WHAT THE FUCK!? Basically on the level that 90% of TL members are on you make so many mistakes that you might as well not have mechanics, in fact they arent called mechanics they are just lucky ass key strokes you happened to make. So quit bitching because you suck ass at PvT cuz I offrace TvP all the time and just do some damn cheez and win, if you actually play the damn race man up and learn to win a fucking game you moronic pieces of shit. GOD! I must have lost over 200 PvT games before I felt confident in teh matchup but thats part of the game, its called practice, revolutionary concept which has kept me at least level throughout the years. So shut the fuck up and go play TvP you whiney little bastards, because everyone of you should know how to build a turret and push O.
<./rant>
annnnnnnnnnd this...
On September 29 2008 10:43 micronesia wrote:
Before bisu nobody ever said it lol
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LMAO I love these arguments. Happens so many times.
And fusiondf: -_____- sigh I guess you'll never understand.
And did I tell you 3-3 Terran WITH science vessels completely owns the Protoss T_T
EDIT: It's funny though. When I TvP I hate P with a passion and when I play PvT and lose I hate T with a passion ^_^
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Calgary25966 Posts
On September 29 2008 20:37 Salv wrote:
Protoss might have the easiest mechanics early on, but Protoss takes a lot of skill to use. No one race is easier then the other, you just have to play differently with each one, as each race utilizes a different type of play. If you aren't adept at a certain style, then that race may seem like it's much harder.
Yea, ok.
Protoss is actually easier at our level. Every race has different requirements, but Protoss' requirements are much easy for the average peson to meet.
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What's all this talk about vultures> zealots? if the units were switched protoss would never win. Their power is that they're melee and how about those 50 mineral templars? one click to wipe out an entire army, even better than vultures. Protoss not having as many micro options as terran doesn't matter because terran has to do all that just to be on the same level as protoss so having 400 apm is just there to equalize the playing field, if you don't do that protoss will own you because of how strong arbiters and all zealots are even without micro.
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On September 30 2008 03:43 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2008 20:37 Salv wrote:
Protoss might have the easiest mechanics early on, but Protoss takes a lot of skill to use. No one race is easier then the other, you just have to play differently with each one, as each race utilizes a different type of play. If you aren't adept at a certain style, then that race may seem like it's much harder. Yea, ok. Protoss is actually easier at our level. Every race has different requirements, but Protoss' requirements are much easy for the average peson to meet.
Easier for the avg person to meet? How so? Can you please describe why protoss is easier for the avg person to meet?
Also for everyone say protoss is so easy, please state specifically what in the protoss race you would change?
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On September 29 2008 21:16 29 fps wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2008 16:44 -orb- wrote:On September 29 2008 08:08 arb wrote:
Protoss are hated for one reason.
1a2a3a4a Funny how protoss players are hated because peopel say they're attack move, when zerg players are the ones that are always complaining htat it's hard to 1a2a3a4a5a6a7a8a9a0a so many units. the difference is that there's a lot more units for zerg, PLUS 1a2a3a4a for toss refers to how you can just attack move without flanking. do that with zerg and you're gonna die. zerglings in a line without a flank? asking for death right there. toss in a line without a flank? not as bad, because each unit has so much hp.
Protoss trying to kill a Terran ball without flanking is suicide.
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On September 29 2008 06:34 freedom yay wrote:
I agree. I tink it's because it is the mechanics and how it gives the lower level players an advantage over similar level terrans or zergs
so bisu is only good because of his race. in actuality hes a noob in disguise xp
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United States47024 Posts
On September 29 2008 20:51 Krohm wrote:
Vulture = 75 mins
Dragoon = 125 mins, 50 gas
1 Dragoon > 50 Vultures without mines.
But really, comparing a vulture to a zealot isn't exactly a valid argument.Since vultures are 2nd(1.5'ish) Tier units.
Mines = 100 mins, 100 gas
2x Vulture = 6x Mines = 150 mins
2x Dragoons = 250 Mins, 100 gas
6x Mines > 2x Dragoons
This type of argument isn't valid, period, because of the way both sides can keep on 1-upping each other. What can be said is that the vulture is much more cost-effective than any unit that the protoss can throw at it, given its versatility, speed, and, when necessary, straight up damage. In terms of pure cost-effectiveness, there are very few units in the game that match the vulture.
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Calgary25966 Posts
On September 30 2008 04:49 nAi.PrOtOsS wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2008 03:43 Chill wrote:On September 29 2008 20:37 Salv wrote:
Protoss might have the easiest mechanics early on, but Protoss takes a lot of skill to use. No one race is easier then the other, you just have to play differently with each one, as each race utilizes a different type of play. If you aren't adept at a certain style, then that race may seem like it's much harder. Yea, ok. Protoss is actually easier at our level. Every race has different requirements, but Protoss' requirements are much easy for the average peson to meet. Easier for the avg person to meet? How so? Can you please describe why protoss is easier for the avg person to meet? Also for everyone say protoss is so easy, please state specifically what in the protoss race you would change?
Their units are hearty and often times a strong Protoss army has very few special units which require attention. This means Protoss armys can often attack from any direction so long as they stay together and then the player can give all his attention to the few units with abilities. Further, Protoss units have a very reasonable building time, meaning you don't have to work very hard to keep your Gateways making units compared to other races (TvZ, Zv*).
That's what I mean. Mechanically and tactically they are just simpler than the other races. Strategically they may be more difficult, but I really don't think it's enough of an offset to bring the races into balance at the average level.
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I think your just looking at it to generally, the thing that seperate's pros is strategical thinking not game mechanics.
Starting off as protoss is hard especially in pvz (TOSSGIRL?)
Mid is sort of easy as you say since it's a balance of a bit of strategical but mostly mechanics.
And higher lvl is hardest of all (in my oppinion) because it's mostly strategical and the easy mechanics don't come into play.
I think its all balanced and that you cant just look at one part of the game.
It would be liek saying zerg is imba because 4 zerglings that cost 100 minerals in total rape a zeo which costs 100 minerals aswell.
ZERG IMBA!!
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PvT at a low level is hilariously easy.
Through D-C+ all I did was the "rock build."
Basically just go 2 gate pressure, expo robo, dual reaver drop/harass, expo, zeal speed +2 stargate carriers.
More than half the people I met barely had the nerves or edge to take it on.
However when you hit the B range, the skill required for PvT suddenly raises off the roof and it just becomes insanely hard(edit:mmm insanely hard is an exaggeration, but I meant it in the sense that the skill required just suddenly leaps up from C to B). because many scenarios end up being this tedious game of rock-paper-scissors countering timing pushes. Good TvPers just read you like a book and you end up getting your pants down if you aren't careful, and you cannot simply 1a2a3a4a your way into victory, you have to make sure your zeals and goons are well spread out and your shuttle drops with either templars/reavers are by your army but not next to it, enough in the range to storm tanks/vults and retreat.
You also have to see cost effective scenarios, when to withdraw and reload, or the terran will simply steamroll you afterwards.
And seriously late game, terran upgrades are ridiculous to combat against, that whole 1a2a3a4a can be applied to a maxed out T army, and the toss has to storm/stasis very meticulously, but thats not even a guarantee because by then its likely they'll throw down EMPS and you have to make sure your spellcasters in entirely different hotkey group sets so they don't end up cluttered.
But in the general and the main point the OP mentioned, I do believe Protoss has the easiest learning curve, but to master it takes considerable depth. We are prone to timing pushes, have the weakest scouting, weakest adaptability, and having the wrong combination of units is far more punishable than the other races. In the higher echelons of starcraft, I believe it requires a good sixth sense to be a great protoss player more than having pitch perfect mechanics. There are exceptions like rock and backho making it out on top, but they play so risky and luck out many cases its unfair to blame the entire race. Think Silver or even frozean who luck out with risky and cheesy tactics, they're just the same in that manner. Unfortunately many simpletons who enter maining our race due to its elementary nature at first end up stagnating later on due to their incapable ability to foresee scenarios, hence the stereotype that protoss players are all tards, ramming their units onto walls head first.
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On September 30 2008 05:06 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2008 20:51 Krohm wrote:
Vulture = 75 mins
Dragoon = 125 mins, 50 gas
1 Dragoon > 50 Vultures without mines.
But really, comparing a vulture to a zealot isn't exactly a valid argument.Since vultures are 2nd(1.5'ish) Tier units. Mines = 100 mins, 100 gas 2x Vulture = 6x Mines = 150 mins 2x Dragoons = 250 Mins, 100 gas 6x Mines > 2x Dragoons This type of argument isn't valid, period, because of the way both sides can keep on 1-upping each other. What can be said is that the vulture is much more cost-effective than any unit that the protoss can throw at it, given its versatility, speed, and, when necessary, straight up damage. In terms of pure cost-effectiveness, there are very few units in the game that match the vulture.
Well compared to a well played Protoss, and to a well played Terran. Protoss comes out on top. Observers > Mines > Dragoons > Vultures > Zealots. Because if the Terran makes any counter to observers, it becomes fodder. Dragoons > Wraiths, Zealots > Goliaths.
I've been in many situational games where my Vultures become nothing more than fodder. They didn't even manage to pull off being meat-shields. TvP at low levels is just ridiculously hard. I was decent at every match up except TvP.
Don't get me wrong though, I do find it balanced. Terran just has to work so much harder than the Protoss.
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On September 30 2008 05:23 nAi.PrOtOsS wrote:It would be liek saying zerg is imba because 4 zerglings that cost 100 minerals in total rape a zeo which costs 100 minerals aswell.
ZERG IMBA!!
Unless you micro your zealot. I don't know if you toss players have heard of the term. Don't forget that we're making those zerglings instead of drones and the number of zerglings required increases with the number of zealots.
Anyway, the only truth in this entire "unbalanced" discussion is that it's easy to pick up protoss and play it. It doesn't take very high APM to play it at a low-mid level or very much micro. However, it's as balanced as every other race.
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On September 30 2008 04:05 freshtowers wrote:
What's all this talk about vultures> zealots? if the units were switched protoss would never win. Their power is that they're melee and how about those 50 mineral templars? one click to wipe out an entire army, even better than vultures. Protoss not having as many micro options as terran doesn't matter because terran has to do all that just to be on the same level as protoss so having 400 apm is just there to equalize the playing field, if you don't do that protoss will own you because of how strong arbiters and all zealots are even without micro.
Are you playing the same game as us?
Templar cost 150 gas, not to mention the expensive upgrades for them.
They die with like 2 vulture hits and are ridiculously easy to micro, and one storm doesn't kill an army.... not only is the area of one storm not big enough to kill a terran army (the units are so big you don't cover many of them), but it takes two storms to kill a tank.
Arbiters are strong huh? Oh wait all you have to do is EMP them and they are useless. Zealots aren't strong if you know how to use vultures.
On September 30 2008 05:55 Krohm wrote:
Don't get me wrong though, I do find it balanced. Terran just has to work so much harder than the Protoss.
You guys are retarded. You keep saying this bullshit statement over and over. THE GAME IS NOT BALANCED IF ITS HARDER FOR ONE RACE THAN THE OTHER. That's practically the definition of balance. That's like if terran had some super unit that was clearly imbalanced and I just said "well you just have to work harder so your macro is better so you have enough units to overpower it"
Stop trying to be bitches and pretend like it's harder for one race but is still balanced. It's either balanced or it's not, you just want to make yourself feel better.
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On September 30 2008 07:02 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2008 04:05 freshtowers wrote:
What's all this talk about vultures> zealots? if the units were switched protoss would never win. Their power is that they're melee and how about those 50 mineral templars? one click to wipe out an entire army, even better than vultures. Protoss not having as many micro options as terran doesn't matter because terran has to do all that just to be on the same level as protoss so having 400 apm is just there to equalize the playing field, if you don't do that protoss will own you because of how strong arbiters and all zealots are even without micro.
Are you playing the same game as us? Templar cost 150 gas, not to mention the expensive upgrades for them. They die with like 2 vulture hits and are ridiculously easy to micro, and one storm doesn't kill an army.... not only is the area of one storm not big enough to kill a terran army (the units are so big you don't cover many of them), but it takes two storms to kill a tank. Arbiters are strong huh? Oh wait all you have to do is EMP them and they are useless. Zealots aren't strong if you know how to use vultures. Show nested quote +On September 30 2008 05:55 Krohm wrote:
Don't get me wrong though, I do find it balanced. Terran just has to work so much harder than the Protoss. You guys are retarded. You keep saying this bullshit statement over and over. THE GAME IS NOT BALANCED IF ITS HARDER FOR ONE RACE THAN THE OTHER. That's practically the definition of balance. That's like if terran had some super unit that was clearly imbalanced and I just said "well you just have to work harder so your macro is better so you have enough units to overpower it" Stop trying to be bitches and pretend like it's harder for one race but is still balanced. It's either balanced or it's not, you just want to make yourself feel better.
I love you. I LOVE YOU.
QUOTED FOR THE FUCKING TRUTH!
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United States10774 Posts
On September 30 2008 05:55 Krohm wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2008 05:06 TheYango wrote:On September 29 2008 20:51 Krohm wrote:
Vulture = 75 mins
Dragoon = 125 mins, 50 gas
1 Dragoon > 50 Vultures without mines.
But really, comparing a vulture to a zealot isn't exactly a valid argument.Since vultures are 2nd(1.5'ish) Tier units. Mines = 100 mins, 100 gas 2x Vulture = 6x Mines = 150 mins 2x Dragoons = 250 Mins, 100 gas 6x Mines > 2x Dragoons This type of argument isn't valid, period, because of the way both sides can keep on 1-upping each other. What can be said is that the vulture is much more cost-effective than any unit that the protoss can throw at it, given its versatility, speed, and, when necessary, straight up damage. In terms of pure cost-effectiveness, there are very few units in the game that match the vulture. I am noob.
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Booooo Haters !
Protoss are sexy 
Is there a Terran or Zerg unit cuter than the probe ?
Do they have cool cats like bengalas ?
Seriously you guys are jealous whiners.
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On September 30 2008 05:30 QuietIdiot wrote:
PvT at a low level is hilariously easy.
Through D-C+ all I did was the "rock build."
Basically just go 2 gate pressure, expo robo, dual reaver drop/harass, expo, zeal speed +2 stargate carriers.
More than half the people I met barely had the nerves or edge to take it on.
However when you hit the B range, the skill required for PvT suddenly raises off the roof and it just becomes insanely hard(edit:mmm insanely hard is an exaggeration, but I meant it in the sense that the skill required just suddenly leaps up from C to B). because many scenarios end up being this tedious game of rock-paper-scissors countering timing pushes. Good TvPers just read you like a book and you end up getting your pants down if you aren't careful, and you cannot simply 1a2a3a4a your way into victory, you have to make sure your zeals and goons are well spread out and your shuttle drops with either templars/reavers are by your army but not next to it, enough in the range to storm tanks/vults and retreat.
You also have to see cost effective scenarios, when to withdraw and reload, or the terran will simply steamroll you afterwards.
And seriously late game, terran upgrades are ridiculous to combat against, that whole 1a2a3a4a can be applied to a maxed out T army, and the toss has to storm/stasis very meticulously, but thats not even a guarantee because by then its likely they'll throw down EMPS and you have to make sure your spellcasters in entirely different hotkey group sets so they don't end up cluttered.
But in the general and the main point the OP mentioned, I do believe Protoss has the easiest learning curve, but to master it takes considerable depth. We are prone to timing pushes, have the weakest scouting, weakest adaptability, and having the wrong combination of units is far more punishable than the other races. In the higher echelons of starcraft, I believe it requires a good sixth sense to be a great protoss player more than having pitch perfect mechanics. There are exceptions like rock and backho making it out on top, but they play so risky and luck out many cases its unfair to blame the entire race. Think Silver or even frozean who luck out with risky and cheesy tactics, they're just the same in that manner. Unfortunately many simpletons who enter maining our race due to its elementary nature at first end up stagnating later on due to their incapable ability to foresee scenarios, hence the stereotype that protoss players are all tards, ramming their units onto walls head first.
this
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Calgary25966 Posts
On September 30 2008 05:23 nAi.PrOtOsS wrote:
I think your just looking at it to generally, the thing that seperate's pros is strategical thinking not game mechanics.
Starting off as protoss is hard especially in pvz (TOSSGIRL?)
Mid is sort of easy as you say since it's a balance of a bit of strategical but mostly mechanics.
And higher lvl is hardest of all (in my oppinion) because it's mostly strategical and the easy mechanics don't come into play.
I think its all balanced and that you cant just look at one part of the game.
It would be liek saying zerg is imba because 4 zerglings that cost 100 minerals in total rape a zeo which costs 100 minerals aswell.
ZERG IMBA!!
It's really not like that at all. I gave definitive examples (build time, hearty units, tactics playing less of a role) and you gave no examples to refute that. When you refute my examples, why don't you actually talk about what I said, instead of showing some analogy that doesn't relate to anything either of us has mentioned.
On September 30 2008 07:02 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2008 04:05 freshtowers wrote:
What's all this talk about vultures> zealots? if the units were switched protoss would never win. Their power is that they're melee and how about those 50 mineral templars? one click to wipe out an entire army, even better than vultures. Protoss not having as many micro options as terran doesn't matter because terran has to do all that just to be on the same level as protoss so having 400 apm is just there to equalize the playing field, if you don't do that protoss will own you because of how strong arbiters and all zealots are even without micro.
Are you playing the same game as us? Templar cost 150 gas, not to mention the expensive upgrades for them. They die with like 2 vulture hits and are ridiculously easy to micro, and one storm doesn't kill an army.... not only is the area of one storm not big enough to kill a terran army (the units are so big you don't cover many of them), but it takes two storms to kill a tank. Arbiters are strong huh? Oh wait all you have to do is EMP them and they are useless. Zealots aren't strong if you know how to use vultures. Show nested quote +On September 30 2008 05:55 Krohm wrote:
Don't get me wrong though, I do find it balanced. Terran just has to work so much harder than the Protoss. You guys are retarded. You keep saying this bullshit statement over and over. THE GAME IS NOT BALANCED IF ITS HARDER FOR ONE RACE THAN THE OTHER. That's practically the definition of balance. That's like if terran had some super unit that was clearly imbalanced and I just said "well you just have to work harder so your macro is better so you have enough units to overpower it" Stop trying to be bitches and pretend like it's harder for one race but is still balanced. It's either balanced or it's not, you just want to make yourself feel better.
I'm not saying this to make myself feel better. The game isn't balanced at mid levels, and the examples of this are foreigner results, race distribution throughout foreign tournaments and ladders. Your own argument is your downfall; Look at the TSL racial distribution at any round of the tournament or the ICCup racial distribution Protoss will always be #1.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 30 2008 05:55 Krohm wrote:
Don't get me wrong though, I do find it balanced. Terran just has to work so much harder than the Protoss.
Mechanically, yes.
IMO timing and game sense are much less forgiving on the Protoss player, however, since the onus of breaking the Terran push is ultimately on the Protoss player. The thing is, these aren't considered more "work" to many low- and mid-level players, since these things are largely learnt across many games; put another way, they don't equate to more actions, but instead WHEN and WHERE those actions are used. Learning to time your break, however, is just as hard as learning how to micro Terran units rather than 1a2a3a4a, it just doesn't FEEL like it is.
Admittedly, there is a level where the game sense and the timing are all there, but the APM/micro isn't, but I doubt that the majority of people complaining in this thread are at that level. I do acknowledge though, that there are people at that level (as Chill pointed out, look at the TSL race distribution). For the majority of people, however, the balance is there.
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Its funny how some people complain that so many people play protoss and then mention that protoss is at the top in most statistics? Duh.
I think that to play protoss like other people have said you actually need to develop a 6th sense to be able to predict what the opponent is doing, a lot of the time it's guessing. Maybe protoss mechanics are easier, but I would rather have super nearly impossible to master mechanics then having to guess what the opponent is doing.
Knowledge is power, and protoss has less tools to gather knowledge then any other race, so therefore we are less power full?
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I started playing protoss a year ago, just because I thought they looked cool :p
I loved dts and carriers and shit from playing single player, so I continued playing toss when I got my cdkey and entered battle.net.
In retrospect, I regret not playing terran or zerg.
Last season I played hard for a few weeks and managed to get C-, and was really happy about it, but it doesnt really feel like much of an accomplishment when you chat on #teamliquid, and everyone says its piss easy to play toss, and my C- toss was equal to a D-level zerg or terran.
So I started playing zerg and terran for a few days, and yes - it is harder.
There is no reason to try to convince yourself otherwise.
After a day or two, I got around 1500 rating as zerg, then I stopped playing for a couple of weeks.
Im sure I could've gotten low D+ if I practice some more build orders and stuff, but I did what came to mind.
I have to say however, if you open with a FE build in PvZ, I think its harder to play protoss than zerg during the early game, due to all the scouting you have to do, and if your BO is slightly off, you can risk getting owned really hard by mutas.
By all means once you get passed the early game, im pretty convinced that playing zerg is more difficult.
But if you get owned couse of something that happened in the early game, as a Zerg player in ZvP, and blame it zerg beeing more difficult to play, im gonna call bs.
This was messy and stuff, good night.
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On September 30 2008 09:19 nAi.PrOtOsS wrote:
Its funny how some people complain that so many people play protoss and then mention that protoss is at the top in most statistics? Duh.
I think that to play protoss like other people have said you actually need to develop a 6th sense to be able to predict what the opponent is doing, a lot of the time it's guessing. Maybe protoss mechanics are easier, but I would rather have super nearly impossible to master mechanics then having to guess what the opponent is doing.
Knowledge is power, and protoss has less tools to gather knowledge then any other race, so therefore we are less power full?
how do you have less knowledge than the other races? PvT, protoss almost always has map control, and the vision that entails, they have an observer over the choke and factories, which means they have a constant view of unit production and positioning; basically its like permanent comsat. when a terran pushes, protoss can see exactly when terran is weak and unsieged, so dont give me the "we cant see anything" argument.
PvZ, you have easy probe scouting until he gets ling speed. Then you get a corsair. Honestly, I can understand why its frustrating trying to detect early ling and hydra all-ins, but outside of early game, you either have sairs scouting around the map, or a fairly mobile and strong protoss force lumbering around the map.
just go watch a zvt rep, with only the zerg vision, and then you will see what having little information is like. Zerg cant send a cloaked overlord into the middle of the terran main, so you know what they do? Keep a couple lings near his force so you can see the size of his force, maintain map control, and make sure you keep on top of the expansions you can take. (hint: do something like this in pvt)
don't boohoo about scouting when you have a cloaked fucking flying unit for one supply
I mean honestly, protoss is very difficult at high levels, but dont even try and argue toss is the hardest in the D ranks
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Have any of these "LOL YOU GUYS ARE NOOBS" even tried any other race, other than Protoss?
I've had all my races as my "main" at one point or another. Protoss is so much easier to use. Ugh, I give up. Keep using your "Easy Mode" race, then call everyone else a moron for trying to prove valid points.
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United States10774 Posts
On September 30 2008 10:13 Krohm wrote:
Have any of these "LOL YOU GUYS ARE NOOBS" even tried any other race, other than Protoss?
I've had all my races as my "main" at one point or another. Protoss is so much easier to use. Ugh, I give up. Keep using your "Easy Mode" race, then call everyone else a moron for trying to prove valid points.
I played Zerg for 6 years before switching to Protoss about a year ago. Although I guess you can make an argument that my skill level was higher by the time I switched to Protoss, it was definitely not easier than Zerg. I found PvT to be harder than ZvT, actually.
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sigh everyone who says p is easy please go and play it, and if you whine any more then quit the fucking game since it's so fucking imbalanced.
Personally i have played zerg and terran before i became a protoss player and in my oppinion they are much easier.
when I was around C- protoss i had massive problems with zerg, even if I didnt die early game i would lose to either ultra/ling late game, or i would lose to spore/lurk. PvZ is easier now but still not easy, sometimes u lose to 4/5/7 pool or you lose to 3 hatch hydra, or to any 2 hatch build. There is so many things a zerg can do early game its frustrating. Then in late game you have to deal with stupid ass ult/ling and stop expos and watch for drops and watch for swarm. Just trying to expo somtiems vs zerg is a pain in the cock since they have speed lings which run in and rape ur expo attempt. So most times protoss has to "1a2a3a" with his da/reaver/zeo/archon army while macroing and aiming reavers and letting off storms and pulling back hurt archons, and watching expos to make sure he doesnt run in with some lings and rape ur expo in 2 seconds. So easy. Especialy sair, reaver it's such an easy strat to pull off, i feel like bisu everytime i do it.
When i was C- protoss PvT was sooooooo easy, but now it is ridiculasly hard. It could be because the way i play pvt, i play extremely defencivly and macro ative. I react to what the terran does, and expo while i kill terrans expos. The problem with this is that new maps such as andromeda, are fucking me over since my stratigy relied a lot on stopping the terran from getting a 3rd expo, but now they get it so easily. And once you get to late game vs a terran, it get's so hard. YOU MuST FlANCK OR U LOSE. Usually if a terran has camped he will come at you with--> Vessels(EMP) No more statis, proly lose all the energy on 2 out of ur 3 ht. and of course all the energy off wat ever units it hits. So now your in a situation where you can either let the terran expo, or your could attack and die, or you could wait a bit build up minerals/gas get ready to mass cars and then suicide ur units (attack) and hope to fuck that he doesnt rape you before your carriers are out, and then you can micro your cars vs 3-3 gols )
Or the terran could do a timing push which is also a massive pain in the cock, especially if they stop scv to make more army quicker. Which you prolly won't kno if they stop scv since all terrans make turrents all over there base.
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On September 30 2008 11:00 nAi.PrOtOsS wrote:
sigh everyone who says p is easy please go and play it, and if you whine any more then quit the fucking game since it's so fucking imbalanced.
Protoss is easy.
I've played it as my main race for over a year, and I acknowledge that after playing all the races.
Everyone can watch something and say "hey, that looks really easy".
That is exactly what you're doing when you're getting rolled by other zergs and terrans.
You feel like you're doing a hell of a job when you're playing, but it just isnt enough.
Don't let your judgement get clouded because of that.
Starcraft is a difficult game with an average level of skill thats ridiculous compared to other games.
Just because protoss is easy compared to other classes, doesnt mean that its easy. Its just less-difficult.
Edit: Now that you edited your post, its obvious that you have more gaming experience than me, so what I wrote probably doesnt apply to you, but thats at least how I felt it at the beginning.
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There are no good/bad races, nor easy/hard.
There are good/bad players.
If you lost a game, then the opponent was probably better than you.
PvT is just as easy in the D as it is in the B+ levels.
Its a match slightly skewed towards the Protoss, in most maps.
What might anyone feel any different is that D level players are too incompetent too play the match properly, so its even easier to win with cheap ass builds or harass.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 30 2008 09:54 fusionsdf wrote:
PvZ, you have easy probe scouting until he gets ling speed. Then you get a corsair. Honestly, I can understand why its frustrating trying to detect early ling and hydra all-ins, but outside of early game, you either have sairs scouting around the map, or a fairly mobile and strong protoss force lumbering around the map.
Except those few minutes where you have to basically guess whether he's doing a hydra all-in or expanding, etc., etc., is more unforgiving of errors than any other similar situations for other races, because of the fact that switching/starting tech is so slow for protoss because of their long build times.
Quite frankly this primarily isn't an argument about Protoss being easy, but an argument about PvT being slightly skewed toward P. How many of the people who are complaining about the imbalance are zerg players? Unless someone can prove me wrong, I'm inclined to believe that most of the people complaining here are Terran players, since most of the discussion is centered around PvT. TvZ is slightly skewed toward Terran, and ZvP is slightly skewed toward zerg. This is true across the board, not just at some level of skill. PvT, TvZ, and ZvP are supposed to be the "safe, fall-back" matchups for Protoss, Terran, and Zerg respectively.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 30 2008 10:13 Krohm wrote:
Have any of these "LOL YOU GUYS ARE NOOBS" even tried any other race, other than Protoss?
I've had all my races as my "main" at one point or another. Protoss is so much easier to use. Ugh, I give up. Keep using your "Easy Mode" race, then call everyone else a moron for trying to prove valid points.
Its "easy mode" when your probe scout gets killed, you're forced to play blind for lack of overlords and comsat for 2 minutes, and when your corsair pops, you find out you prepared for the wrong build (prepared for 4-hatch hydra when he went for lurks, etc.)? You can't afford to wait for the corsair scout to find his tech, because given Protoss' slow build times, and you've got at best a 50% chance of guessing the right build.
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Calgary25966 Posts
On September 30 2008 14:24 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2008 10:13 Krohm wrote:
Have any of these "LOL YOU GUYS ARE NOOBS" even tried any other race, other than Protoss?
I've had all my races as my "main" at one point or another. Protoss is so much easier to use. Ugh, I give up. Keep using your "Easy Mode" race, then call everyone else a moron for trying to prove valid points. Its "easy mode" when your probe scout gets killed, you're forced to play blind for lack of overlords and comsat for 2 minutes, and when your corsair pops, you find out you prepared for the wrong build (prepared for 4-hatch hydra when he went for lurks, etc.)? You can't afford to wait for the corsair scout to find his tech, because given Protoss' slow build times, and you've got at best a 50% chance of guessing the right build.
This is why you don't lose the Probe. Also, two minutes of being uncomfortable does not make up for the simplistic advantage the race has.
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On September 30 2008 09:38 Epicfailguy wrote:
I started playing protoss a year ago, just because I thought they looked cool :p
I loved dts and carriers and shit from playing single player, so I continued playing toss when I got my cdkey and entered battle.net.
In retrospect, I regret not playing terran or zerg.
Last season I played hard for a few weeks and managed to get C-, and was really happy about it, but it doesnt really feel like much of an accomplishment when you chat on #teamliquid, and everyone says its piss easy to play toss, and my C- toss was equal to a D-level zerg or terran.
So I started playing zerg and terran for a few days, and yes - it is harder.
There is no reason to try to convince yourself otherwise.
After a day or two, I got around 1500 rating as zerg, then I stopped playing for a couple of weeks.
Im sure I could've gotten low D+ if I practice some more build orders and stuff, but I did what came to mind.
I have to say however, if you open with a FE build in PvZ, I think its harder to play protoss than zerg during the early game, due to all the scouting you have to do, and if your BO is slightly off, you can risk getting owned really hard by mutas.
By all means once you get passed the early game, im pretty convinced that playing zerg is more difficult.
But if you get owned couse of something that happened in the early game, as a Zerg player in ZvP, and blame it zerg beeing more difficult to play, im gonna call bs.
This was messy and stuff, good night.
Dude, you can't say whether it's harder or easier after "a day or two" of playhing another race.
If you've been playing protoss for a year, obviously things are naturally going to flow for you in a certain way. If you all of a sudden switch to zerg or terran, you can't possibly expect it to be easy for you when you have no practice at it.
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On September 30 2008 14:34 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2008 14:24 TheYango wrote:On September 30 2008 10:13 Krohm wrote:
Have any of these "LOL YOU GUYS ARE NOOBS" even tried any other race, other than Protoss?
I've had all my races as my "main" at one point or another. Protoss is so much easier to use. Ugh, I give up. Keep using your "Easy Mode" race, then call everyone else a moron for trying to prove valid points. Its "easy mode" when your probe scout gets killed, you're forced to play blind for lack of overlords and comsat for 2 minutes, and when your corsair pops, you find out you prepared for the wrong build (prepared for 4-hatch hydra when he went for lurks, etc.)? You can't afford to wait for the corsair scout to find his tech, because given Protoss' slow build times, and you've got at best a 50% chance of guessing the right build. This is why you don't lose the Probe. Also, two minutes of being uncomfortable does not make up for the simplistic advantage the race has.
Chill it's not realistic to put the pressure of keeping a probe alive against speed lings on people with less than 250 apm. Keeping a probe alive versus speed lings (normal lings are just about not being lazy) is extremely difficult and to do it while continuing your build order/etc is ridiculously hard. One wrong move or one wrong second to look away when the zerg decides to try for a surround and you lose the probe, GG. just saying that's why you don't lose the probe in itself adds a shitload of difficulty to protoss that it doesn't seem like you are taking into account.
Zerg/terran don't have to do that versus protoss. It's part of what balances the difficulty of what makes protoss not easier than the other races.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 30 2008 14:34 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2008 14:24 TheYango wrote:On September 30 2008 10:13 Krohm wrote:
Have any of these "LOL YOU GUYS ARE NOOBS" even tried any other race, other than Protoss?
I've had all my races as my "main" at one point or another. Protoss is so much easier to use. Ugh, I give up. Keep using your "Easy Mode" race, then call everyone else a moron for trying to prove valid points. Its "easy mode" when your probe scout gets killed, you're forced to play blind for lack of overlords and comsat for 2 minutes, and when your corsair pops, you find out you prepared for the wrong build (prepared for 4-hatch hydra when he went for lurks, etc.)? You can't afford to wait for the corsair scout to find his tech, because given Protoss' slow build times, and you've got at best a 50% chance of guessing the right build. This is why you don't lose the Probe. Also, two minutes of being uncomfortable does not make up for the simplistic advantage the race has.
So...your victory resting on a 20 hp 20 shield no armor unit makes the race overpowered? The probe not only has to be able to stay alive, but also be able to cross back down/up the ramp to the natural (granted that's of variable difficulty depending on the map), else the zerg player will just place his tech at the base your probe is not at. Not to mention that a sunken makes probe scouting a literal impossibility. You could zealot scout, but the zerg player would easily block his ramp by the time a zealot was out.
I agree with you Chill, that there is a skill band at the mid-levels where Protoss may be easier to play for a good percentage of players there. But to make sweeping statements like "Protoss is overpowered" or "Protoss is Easy-mode" is just plain wrong.
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Yo Protoss, here's the REAL PROBLEM.
You're simply trying too hard.
To be a good protoss player, follow these easy steps.
1) Become a douchebag.
-This is really easy, and only requires 10 APM (1/10th of the overall APM you need!!!). Buy some axe bodyspray, and combine it with some other cologne. If the mixture doesn't result in some sort of reprehensible douchefog, try again. Then buy a visor and wear it sideways. Play StarCraft with sunglasses, and say "lol" and "bro" alot. If anyone asks you why you play Protoss answer "CUZ CARRIERS ARE TIGHT BRO LOL".
2) Beat your hands with a hammer.
-Everyone knows Protoss only need 100 APM. If you have fast hands, simply break them! All that extra APM from playing Terran or Zerg is just distracting. Who needs fancy mechanics to attack move. Right bro? (Breaking your hands with a hammer required 20 APM. ALMOST THERE!)
3) Whine about PvZ as much as possible. Especially in the strategy forum.
-Try to make as many nonsensical and redundant topics about "Using Sair/Reaver" and "Beating 9 pool" as possible. Extra points if there is a topic of the same subject on the same page. Even more points if you never read the recommended threads.
4) Stop microing! Attack move that motherfucker!
-Stop trying micro. That's hard, and we save that for the intellectuals (dandy fags). What are you BoxeR? Pfff. Just attack move those carriers, and win the fucking game. Got some goons? A-Move those sumbitches. You know how it works. Aww yeah. If you're lucky, Kid Rock will write a song about A-Moving. You can listen to it in your bitchin' F-150 with monster truck wheels. CHILLAXIN AND A MOVING BRO.
5) Macro? Just mash random hotkeys and push D.
-Basically the only unit you ever need is Dragoons with range upgrade. So hotkey your gateways to whatever and just mash D. Extra points if you have less Gateways than your opponent has factories and still win.
6) Gas Steal every time on Blue Storm.
-If you're playing a terran on blue storm, and you don't use the SIKK TRIKK of Gas Stealing, you're not a real protoss. Why don't you go hang out with the nerdy Zerg players? Yeah this is a MANS CLUB.
So know you understand the true way of playing protoss. Don't listen to assholes with more posts than me, or shiny colors in their name. Or NonY. They're terminators created by CyberDine. Ok? So listen to me. I'm a Doctor.
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I wish pylons flew/gave vision/could drop.
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On September 30 2008 14:44 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Yo Protoss, here's the REAL PROBLEM.
You're simply trying too hard.
To be a good protoss player, follow these easy steps.
1) Become a douchebag.
-This is really easy, and only requires 10 APM (1/10th of the overall APM you need!!!). Buy some axe bodyspray, and combine it with some other cologne. If the mixture doesn't result in some sort of reprehensible douchefog, try again. Then buy a visor and wear it sideways. Play StarCraft with sunglasses, and say "lol" and "bro" alot. If anyone asks you why you play Protoss answer "CUZ CARRIERS ARE TIGHT BRO LOL".
2) Beat your hands with a hammer.
-Everyone knows Protoss only need 100 APM. If you have fast hands, simply break them! All that extra APM from playing Terran or Zerg is just distracting. Who needs fancy mechanics to attack move. Right bro? (Breaking your hands with a hammer required 20 APM. ALMOST THERE!)
3) Whine about PvZ as much as possible. Especially in the strategy forum.
-Try to make as many nonsensical and redundant topics about "Using Sair/Reaver" and "Beating 9 pool" as possible. Extra points if there is a topic of the same subject on the same page. Even more points if you never read the recommended threads.
4) Stop microing! Attack move that motherfucker!
-Stop trying micro. That's hard, and we save that for the intellectuals (dandy fags). What are you BoxeR? Pfff. Just attack move those carriers, and win the fucking game. Got some goons? A-Move those sumbitches. You know how it works. Aww yeah. If you're lucky, Kid Rock will write a song about A-Moving. You can listen to it in your bitchin' F-150 with monster truck wheels. CHILLAXIN AND A MOVING BRO.
5) Macro? Just mash random hotkeys and push D.
-Basically the only unit you ever need is Dragoons with range upgrade. So hotkey your gateways to whatever and just mash D. Extra points if you have less Gateways than your opponent has factories and still win.
6) Gas Steal every time on Blue Storm.
-If you're playing a terran on blue storm, and you don't use the SIKK TRIKK of Gas Stealing, you're not a real protoss. Why don't you go hang out with the nerdy Zerg players? Yeah this is a MANS CLUB.
So know you understand the true way of playing protoss. Don't listen to assholes with more posts than me, or shiny colors in their name. Or NonY. They're terminators created by CyberDine. Ok? So listen to me. I'm a Doctor.
You forgot about the 7th one. Make Carriers, and win.
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On September 30 2008 14:59 Krohm wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2008 14:44 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Yo Protoss, here's the REAL PROBLEM.
You're simply trying too hard.
To be a good protoss player, follow these easy steps.
1) Become a douchebag.
-This is really easy, and only requires 10 APM (1/10th of the overall APM you need!!!). Buy some axe bodyspray, and combine it with some other cologne. If the mixture doesn't result in some sort of reprehensible douchefog, try again. Then buy a visor and wear it sideways. Play StarCraft with sunglasses, and say "lol" and "bro" alot. If anyone asks you why you play Protoss answer "CUZ CARRIERS ARE TIGHT BRO LOL".
2) Beat your hands with a hammer.
-Everyone knows Protoss only need 100 APM. If you have fast hands, simply break them! All that extra APM from playing Terran or Zerg is just distracting. Who needs fancy mechanics to attack move. Right bro? (Breaking your hands with a hammer required 20 APM. ALMOST THERE!)
3) Whine about PvZ as much as possible. Especially in the strategy forum.
-Try to make as many nonsensical and redundant topics about "Using Sair/Reaver" and "Beating 9 pool" as possible. Extra points if there is a topic of the same subject on the same page. Even more points if you never read the recommended threads.
4) Stop microing! Attack move that motherfucker!
-Stop trying micro. That's hard, and we save that for the intellectuals (dandy fags). What are you BoxeR? Pfff. Just attack move those carriers, and win the fucking game. Got some goons? A-Move those sumbitches. You know how it works. Aww yeah. If you're lucky, Kid Rock will write a song about A-Moving. You can listen to it in your bitchin' F-150 with monster truck wheels. CHILLAXIN AND A MOVING BRO.
5) Macro? Just mash random hotkeys and push D.
-Basically the only unit you ever need is Dragoons with range upgrade. So hotkey your gateways to whatever and just mash D. Extra points if you have less Gateways than your opponent has factories and still win.
6) Gas Steal every time on Blue Storm.
-If you're playing a terran on blue storm, and you don't use the SIKK TRIKK of Gas Stealing, you're not a real protoss. Why don't you go hang out with the nerdy Zerg players? Yeah this is a MANS CLUB.
So know you understand the true way of playing protoss. Don't listen to assholes with more posts than me, or shiny colors in their name. Or NonY. They're terminators created by CyberDine. Ok? So listen to me. I'm a Doctor. You forgot about the 7th one. Make Carriers, and win.
TIGHT BRO. SIKKKKK ADVICE.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 30 2008 14:55 Divinek wrote:
I wish pylons flew/gave vision/could drop.
They can in Starcraft 2!
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figured i'd post it here too.
Protoss (n): A race in Blizzard's Starcraft
Protoss (adj: Easy, without difficulty. i.e. "Man, Lx made midas look protoss"
Protoss (v): To do something with ease. i.e "man i just protossed my homework"
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like your 4pool right yubee
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United States11390 Posts
On September 30 2008 16:02 SayaSP wrote:
like your 4pool right yubee
like your mom right sayasp
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I don't play anymore, my level was not very high, I played only one season in wgtour ladder and i had a record like 30-15. I am a 160 zerg apm user. Let's say i was at "medium" level.
When I played terran, it was just a instant loss because i'm not fast enough after the first 10 minutes, but surprisly i could beat bad zerg player and medium terran player with protoss.
For me protoss is by far the easiest race at medium-low level.
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leave britney err i mean protoss alone!!
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United States10774 Posts
On September 30 2008 14:59 Krohm wrote:You forgot about the 7th one. Make Carriers, and win.
I can beat you and Doctor 1v2 without using any of those steps ^_^
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On September 30 2008 14:39 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2008 14:34 Chill wrote:On September 30 2008 14:24 TheYango wrote:On September 30 2008 10:13 Krohm wrote:
Have any of these "LOL YOU GUYS ARE NOOBS" even tried any other race, other than Protoss?
I've had all my races as my "main" at one point or another. Protoss is so much easier to use. Ugh, I give up. Keep using your "Easy Mode" race, then call everyone else a moron for trying to prove valid points. Its "easy mode" when your probe scout gets killed, you're forced to play blind for lack of overlords and comsat for 2 minutes, and when your corsair pops, you find out you prepared for the wrong build (prepared for 4-hatch hydra when he went for lurks, etc.)? You can't afford to wait for the corsair scout to find his tech, because given Protoss' slow build times, and you've got at best a 50% chance of guessing the right build. This is why you don't lose the Probe. Also, two minutes of being uncomfortable does not make up for the simplistic advantage the race has. Chill it's not realistic to put the pressure of keeping a probe alive against speed lings on people with less than 250 apm. Keeping a probe alive versus speed lings (normal lings are just about not being lazy) is extremely difficult and to do it while continuing your build order/etc is ridiculously hard. One wrong move or one wrong second to look away when the zerg decides to try for a surround and you lose the probe, GG. just saying that's why you don't lose the probe in itself adds a shitload of difficulty to protoss that it doesn't seem like you are taking into account. Zerg/terran don't have to do that versus protoss. It's part of what balances the difficulty of what makes protoss not easier than the other races.
Keeping the probe alive is easy.. I do it with ease most games and I rarely crack 120 with toss, and that's my off race.
You guys are all in denial. P is obviously the easy button in bw.
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I haven't followed the pro scene extensively for any length of time, but wasn't Terran always on top a few years ago? With the likes of Boxer and ILoveoov? Then Zerg also had a good run with players like Yellow, July and Savior? If I recall, no one talked shit about Protoss being easy, if anything, it was that one of Protoss' matchups, PvZ could possibly be imbalanced. Since then there hasn't been game breaking changes made to the game to make Protoss better, so unless I am missing something, styles lately have just worked out in Protoss favour and Zerg/Terran's need to stop bitching.
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Calgary25966 Posts
On September 30 2008 22:54 Salv wrote:
I haven't followed the pro scene extensively for any length of time, but wasn't Terran always on top a few years ago? With the likes of Boxer and ILoveoov? Then Zerg also had a good run with players like Yellow, July and Savior? If I recall, no one talked shit about Protoss being easy, if anything, it was that one of Protoss' matchups, PvZ could possibly be imbalanced. Since then there hasn't been game breaking changes made to the game to make Protoss better, so unless I am missing something, styles lately have just worked out in Protoss favour and Zerg/Terran's need to stop bitching.
We're talknig about foreigner level, not top tier progamers. Keep up.
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On September 30 2008 22:32 Hawk wrote:
Keeping the probe alive is easy.. I do it with ease most games and I rarely crack 120 with toss, and that's my off race.
You guys are all in denial. P is obviously the easy button in bw.
reps or it didn't happen
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United States47024 Posts
On September 30 2008 19:24 loupouk wrote:
I don't play anymore, my level was not very high, I played only one season in wgtour ladder and i had a record like 30-15. I am a 160 zerg apm user. Let's say i was at "medium" level.
When I played terran, it was just a instant loss because i'm not fast enough after the first 10 minutes, but surprisly i could beat bad zerg player and medium terran player with protoss.
For me protoss is by far the easiest race at medium-low level.
Ok this is a crap example. You'll beat bad zergs because they're bad, and they can't use the ZvP slant to their advantage, and you can beat medium Terrans because of the PvT slant. The slight P>T>Z>P slant is common knowledge, and is not evidence for Protoss imbalance.
On September 30 2008 22:32 Hawk wrote:
Keeping the probe alive is easy.. I do it with ease most games and I rarely crack 120 with toss, and that's my off race.
You guys are all in denial. P is obviously the easy button in bw.
As stated previously, reps or it didn't happen. Keeping the probe alive is also meaningless if it can't cross back to zerg's natural, because, as stated before, they can place their tech there.
Single examples are not conclusive evidence, because they are too subject to individual play-styles, and whatever pool of opponents you've had to face.
So far, the only person whose cited general trends, and not single anecdotes is Chill, and I've conceded that at the level he's talking about (high-level foreigners), there is a skill band where Protoss players have the game sense and timing needed to win, while Terran and Zergs might not have the micro. But that's a relatively small skill band. Most of the people complaining here don't fit into that skill band.
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umm
the easyness of protoss is bigger in low foreigner levels like D and C levels, because terran doesnt have the mechanics to keep up, and generally they dont understand timing windows well enough
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One recent example: Spirit Tournament thread: semifinals: P>Z, P>Z
Note no T in semifinal, and the winner will be a P
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If I show you scrubs my reps, you'll finally get on my level. Ain't happening!
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On September 30 2008 23:13 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2008 22:54 Salv wrote:
I haven't followed the pro scene extensively for any length of time, but wasn't Terran always on top a few years ago? With the likes of Boxer and ILoveoov? Then Zerg also had a good run with players like Yellow, July and Savior? If I recall, no one talked shit about Protoss being easy, if anything, it was that one of Protoss' matchups, PvZ could possibly be imbalanced. Since then there hasn't been game breaking changes made to the game to make Protoss better, so unless I am missing something, styles lately have just worked out in Protoss favour and Zerg/Terran's need to stop bitching. We're talknig about foreigner level, not top tier progamers. Keep up.
Fair enough, same question then. Will someone educate me with a brief history of foreigner top players and races? Chill basically just said that with top tier progamers it's fine and that this discussion is about foreigners. I have no problem admitting that I am playing the easiest race there is if someone can back it up with some proof (like listing the top players for the past few years and they all happen to be Protoss).
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I think P is really hard to play actually. I'm a C- P player. I struggled to get too C-. Then I tried to play zerg, for kicks and giggles, and i became C- in half a day. And I never played the race before except in 2vs2 and 3vs3! Its so easy to exp the map and macro the shit out of your oppunent. But with P its 1 bad judgement call and its gg. Your always playing one your toes. 1 mistake. gg. P sux
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On October 01 2008 03:36 0xDEADBEEF wrote:One recent example: Spirit Tournament thread: semifinals: P>Z, P>Z Note no T in semifinal, and the winner will be a P
Just because they're better players doesn't make the race easy.
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lol
Argument made:
-Protoss at foreigner levels is easier than Zerg and Terran, the difference in skill required being significant enough that foreigner events, such as TSL, and the foreigner community in general, are dominated by Protoss players
Counter arguments made by a lot of Protoss players:
- Protoss is not easy!! (no, the argument is that protoss is easier than the other 2 races)
- HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN PRO SCENE? (We're talking about foreign scene, where the mechanics are significantly worse than the pro scene)
- IF ITS SO EASY WHY DONT YOU DO 1a2a3a and WIN AN OSL??
- Make personal attacks
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United States47024 Posts
On October 01 2008 06:32 ahole-surprise wrote:
lol
Argument made:
-Protoss at foreigner levels is easier than Zerg and Terran, the difference in skill required being significant enough that foreigner events, such as TSL, and the foreigner community in general, are dominated by Protoss players
Counter arguments made by a lot of Protoss players:
- Protoss is not easy!! (no, the argument is that protoss is easier than the other 2 races)
- HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN PRO SCENE? (We're talking about foreign scene, where the mechanics are significantly worse than the pro scene)
- IF ITS SO EASY WHY DONT YOU DO 1a2a3a and WIN AN OSL??
- Make personal attacks
This is a gross misrepresentation of both sides. There are people who have made unintelligent posts on both sides of the argument, especially anti-Protoss posts that have said something along the lines of "I played Protoss and I thought it was easy, so therefore, Protoss is easy-mode." Also, while the flaws of the "counterargument" are easily apparent, there are several flaws I'd like to point out about the "argument."
1.) Its been agreed that there is a skill band where Protoss > other races because players at that level don't have Korean pro mechanics but do have good enough game sense and timing. Using that skill band as an indicator and saying it can be extrapolated to Protoss as a race in general is just as flawed as saying Korean Pro level Protoss can be extrapolated to Protoss as a race in general.
2) Popularity does not imply that a race is good. If Protoss players dominate the foreigner community, then perhaps they do well because there are more of them, and therefore more that are at a high skill level.
Protoss has an easier time with mechanics, but is harder in terms of game sense and timing required to win. Game sense is harder because protoss players generally have to play with less information that Zerg or Terran players, given that 1) observer tech is late relative to Overlords and ComSat, and 2) observers are generally easier to ward off than ComSats or Overlords (ComSat is impossible to prevent unless you've already broken far enough through Terran to attack his ComSat Stations, and Overlords are hard to ward off due to the fact that they will be in vast quantity and do not cost any gas (and are thus easily replaceable). Timing is harder on a Protoss player because of the long build times of their units and buildings. You cannot prepare for a threat after you've seen it coming because it simply takes too long. No amount of 1a2a3a4a is going to help you win against a 4-hatch hydra all-in if your probe scout couldn't outrun speedlings and you couldn't prepare for it. No amount of of spamming t is going to save you if fast-expanded and got walled out of seeing the 2-factory push headed your way, and got caught before you could produce the units to stop it.
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I wasn't trying to represent both sides.
I was saying what the main argument is, at least the one I would make, and then I wrote what a lot of Protoss players use as a counterargument, which I found funny, hence the lol to start the post.
"2)" is a contentious issue. Are there more protoss players because it's easier? Or because people just like protoss? I don't care to answer that question. But you seem to bend towards the latter, which I believe is a lot less plausible.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 01 2008 06:53 ahole-surprise wrote:
I wasn't trying to represent both sides.
I was saying what the main argument is, at least the one I would make, and then I wrote what a lot of Protoss players use as a counterargument, which I found funny, hence the lol to start the post.
Sadly, those "counterarguments" are far too common in this thread.
On October 01 2008 06:53 ahole-surprise wrote:
"2)" is a contentious issue. Are there more protoss players because it's easier? Or because people just like protoss? I don't care to answer that question. But you seem to bend towards the latter, which I believe is a lot less plausible.
If the prevailing view among non-Protoss players is that Protoss is the easier race, regardless of whether or not its true, there will be a tendency for people to switch to Protoss. I don't care to answer the question either, but I still would like to point out that Protoss actually being easier is not the only plausible reason for many players to play Protoss. The mere perception that it is easier is enough.
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Maybe I miss worded my original statement. Protoss is easier to manage, and handle compared to the other races. They have large more expensive units, so micro/macro management isn't as difficult.
Now one could argue that tier two Terran is the same as Protoss tier 1/1.5. That may be correct to a very slight degree, however Factories cost much more than a gateway. Even without a machine shop. (But you do need Machine shops regardless. So that only adds to the overall cost) I won't bother going into the unit costs, since we all know them. Terran requires much more micro effort as well. So if anyone tries to bring up that argument, don't.
Zerg is even worse, managing 70+ small units can tend to be a pain in the ass.
Protoss has it easier there once again. Gateways also produce higher tier units. Dark Templars and High Templars.
Also look at the workers and supply methods. A probe can warp in a building, then resume mining. Pylons are multiple use. You need them to set up power grids for your buildings, and they provide supply. An SCV has to stop what its doing to build whatever, until its finished. Supply depots are useless, other than providing supply, and maybe a "wall". Zerg has to sacrifice a drone in order to build something. So any building cost is pretty much +50 minerals, plus you may lose some mining time, and you lose a larva. Overlords are handy though, can't lie about that.
So in that aspect Protoss has it easier than the other 2 races there once again.
I'm sure there is more, but chances are you Protoss players will just laugh at my points. (Even though they make perfect sense)
With all that being said, I'm not saying that Protoss is instant win against the other races. Read the bold, underlined part at the top over, and over again. Until you understand what I'm saying.
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On October 01 2008 06:46 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2008 06:32 ahole-surprise wrote:
lol
Argument made:
-Protoss at foreigner levels is easier than Zerg and Terran, the difference in skill required being significant enough that foreigner events, such as TSL, and the foreigner community in general, are dominated by Protoss players
Counter arguments made by a lot of Protoss players:
- Protoss is not easy!! (no, the argument is that protoss is easier than the other 2 races)
- HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN PRO SCENE? (We're talking about foreign scene, where the mechanics are significantly worse than the pro scene)
- IF ITS SO EASY WHY DONT YOU DO 1a2a3a and WIN AN OSL??
- Make personal attacks
This is a gross misrepresentation of both sides. There are people who have made unintelligent posts on both sides of the argument, especially anti-Protoss posts that have said something along the lines of "I played Protoss and I thought it was easy, so therefore, Protoss is easy-mode." Also, while the flaws of the "counterargument" are easily apparent, there are several flaws I'd like to point out about the "argument." 1.) Its been agreed that there is a skill band where Protoss > other races because players at that level don't have Korean pro mechanics but do have good enough game sense and timing. Using that skill band as an indicator and saying it can be extrapolated to Protoss as a race in general is just as flawed as saying Korean Pro level Protoss can be extrapolated to Protoss as a race in general. 2) Popularity does not imply that a race is good. If Protoss players dominate the foreigner community, then perhaps they do well because there are more of them, and therefore more that are at a high skill level. Protoss has an easier time with mechanics, but is harder in terms of game sense and timing required to win. Game sense is harder because protoss players generally have to play with less information that Zerg or Terran players, given that 1) observer tech is late relative to Overlords and ComSat, and 2) observers are generally easier to ward off than ComSats or Overlords (ComSat is impossible to prevent unless you've already broken far enough through Terran to attack his ComSat Stations, and Overlords are hard to ward off due to the fact that they will be in vast quantity and do not cost any gas (and are thus easily replaceable). Timing is harder on a Protoss player because of the long build times of their units and buildings. You cannot prepare for a threat after you've seen it coming because it simply takes too long. No amount of 1a2a3a4a is going to help you win against a 4-hatch hydra all-in if your probe scout couldn't outrun speedlings and you couldn't prepare for it. No amount of of spamming t is going to save you if fast-expanded and got walled out of seeing the 2-factory push headed your way, and got caught before you could produce the units to stop it.
overlords come later tech than observers?
are you fucking INSANE!?
lololl
and observers are easier to ward off than overlords lololol
please read your own posts
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On October 01 2008 07:28 fusionsdf wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2008 06:46 TheYango wrote:On October 01 2008 06:32 ahole-surprise wrote:
lol
Argument made:
-Protoss at foreigner levels is easier than Zerg and Terran, the difference in skill required being significant enough that foreigner events, such as TSL, and the foreigner community in general, are dominated by Protoss players
Counter arguments made by a lot of Protoss players:
- Protoss is not easy!! (no, the argument is that protoss is easier than the other 2 races)
- HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN PRO SCENE? (We're talking about foreign scene, where the mechanics are significantly worse than the pro scene)
- IF ITS SO EASY WHY DONT YOU DO 1a2a3a and WIN AN OSL??
- Make personal attacks
This is a gross misrepresentation of both sides. There are people who have made unintelligent posts on both sides of the argument, especially anti-Protoss posts that have said something along the lines of "I played Protoss and I thought it was easy, so therefore, Protoss is easy-mode." Also, while the flaws of the "counterargument" are easily apparent, there are several flaws I'd like to point out about the "argument." 1.) Its been agreed that there is a skill band where Protoss > other races because players at that level don't have Korean pro mechanics but do have good enough game sense and timing. Using that skill band as an indicator and saying it can be extrapolated to Protoss as a race in general is just as flawed as saying Korean Pro level Protoss can be extrapolated to Protoss as a race in general. 2) Popularity does not imply that a race is good. If Protoss players dominate the foreigner community, then perhaps they do well because there are more of them, and therefore more that are at a high skill level. Protoss has an easier time with mechanics, but is harder in terms of game sense and timing required to win. Game sense is harder because protoss players generally have to play with less information that Zerg or Terran players, given that 1) observer tech is late relative to Overlords and ComSat, and 2) observers are generally easier to ward off than ComSats or Overlords (ComSat is impossible to prevent unless you've already broken far enough through Terran to attack his ComSat Stations, and Overlords are hard to ward off due to the fact that they will be in vast quantity and do not cost any gas (and are thus easily replaceable). Timing is harder on a Protoss player because of the long build times of their units and buildings. You cannot prepare for a threat after you've seen it coming because it simply takes too long. No amount of 1a2a3a4a is going to help you win against a 4-hatch hydra all-in if your probe scout couldn't outrun speedlings and you couldn't prepare for it. No amount of of spamming t is going to save you if fast-expanded and got walled out of seeing the 2-factory push headed your way, and got caught before you could produce the units to stop it. overlords come later tech than observers? are you fucking INSANE!? lololl and observers are easier to ward off than overlords lololol please read your own posts
Facepalmtastic of a post there fusion. If you're going to insult his post maybe you should READ IT.
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On October 01 2008 07:36 Krohm wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2008 07:28 fusionsdf wrote:On October 01 2008 06:46 TheYango wrote:On October 01 2008 06:32 ahole-surprise wrote:
lol
Argument made:
-Protoss at foreigner levels is easier than Zerg and Terran, the difference in skill required being significant enough that foreigner events, such as TSL, and the foreigner community in general, are dominated by Protoss players
Counter arguments made by a lot of Protoss players:
- Protoss is not easy!! (no, the argument is that protoss is easier than the other 2 races)
- HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN PRO SCENE? (We're talking about foreign scene, where the mechanics are significantly worse than the pro scene)
- IF ITS SO EASY WHY DONT YOU DO 1a2a3a and WIN AN OSL??
- Make personal attacks
This is a gross misrepresentation of both sides. There are people who have made unintelligent posts on both sides of the argument, especially anti-Protoss posts that have said something along the lines of "I played Protoss and I thought it was easy, so therefore, Protoss is easy-mode." Also, while the flaws of the "counterargument" are easily apparent, there are several flaws I'd like to point out about the "argument." 1.) Its been agreed that there is a skill band where Protoss > other races because players at that level don't have Korean pro mechanics but do have good enough game sense and timing. Using that skill band as an indicator and saying it can be extrapolated to Protoss as a race in general is just as flawed as saying Korean Pro level Protoss can be extrapolated to Protoss as a race in general. 2) Popularity does not imply that a race is good. If Protoss players dominate the foreigner community, then perhaps they do well because there are more of them, and therefore more that are at a high skill level. Protoss has an easier time with mechanics, but is harder in terms of game sense and timing required to win. Game sense is harder because protoss players generally have to play with less information that Zerg or Terran players, given that 1) observer tech is late relative to Overlords and ComSat, and 2) observers are generally easier to ward off than ComSats or Overlords (ComSat is impossible to prevent unless you've already broken far enough through Terran to attack his ComSat Stations, and Overlords are hard to ward off due to the fact that they will be in vast quantity and do not cost any gas (and are thus easily replaceable). Timing is harder on a Protoss player because of the long build times of their units and buildings. You cannot prepare for a threat after you've seen it coming because it simply takes too long. No amount of 1a2a3a4a is going to help you win against a 4-hatch hydra all-in if your probe scout couldn't outrun speedlings and you couldn't prepare for it. No amount of of spamming t is going to save you if fast-expanded and got walled out of seeing the 2-factory push headed your way, and got caught before you could produce the units to stop it. overlords come later tech than observers? are you fucking INSANE!? lololl and observers are easier to ward off than overlords lololol please read your own posts Facepalmtastic of a post there fusion. If you're going to insult his post maybe you should READ IT.
I bolded it for you
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United States47024 Posts
On October 01 2008 07:25 Krohm wrote:
Maybe I miss worded my original statement. Protoss is easier to manage, and handle compared to the other races. They have large more expensive units, so micro/macro management isn't as difficult.
I agree that microing Terran is harder, but macroing is stretching it.
On October 01 2008 07:25 Krohm wrote:
Now one could argue that tier two Terran is the same as Protoss tier 1/1.5. That may be correct to a very slight degree, however Factories cost much more than a gateway. Even without a machine shop. (But you do need Machine shops regardless. So that only adds to the overall cost) I won't bother going into the unit costs, since we all know them. Terran requires much more micro effort as well. So if anyone tries to bring up that argument, don't.
How does having LESS production buildings make macroing HARDER? IMO Terran macro is mechanically easier than Protoss because of the way you can position buildings such that you can macro out of more buildings at once (e.g. more factories fit on the screen at once because Terran doesn't have to worry about pylon placement and can place them in neat rows). Also, even though gateways cost less, Protoss needs more of them to keep up because of long build times. I'm pretty sure that no one believes that if Protoss builds the same number of gateways as Terran has factories, that Protoss has a chance of winning the fight. Protoss should almost always have more gateways than terran has factories, so going by resource-equivalence of production buildings is invalid.
On October 01 2008 07:25 Krohm wrote:
Zerg is even worse, managing 70+ small units can tend to be a pain in the ass.
Protoss has it easier there once again. Gateways also produce higher tier units. Dark Templars and High Templars.
By this argument, Zerg macro is relatively trivial because Hatcheries produce EVERY tier of unit, and are forgiving for non-constant production.
On October 01 2008 07:25 Krohm wrote:
Also look at the workers and supply methods. A probe can warp in a building, then resume mining. Pylons are multiple use. You need them to set up power grids for your buildings, and they provide supply. An SCV has to stop what its doing to build whatever, until its finished. Supply depots are useless, other than providing supply, and maybe a "wall". Zerg has to sacrifice a drone in order to build something. So any building cost is pretty much +50 minerals, plus you may lose some mining time, and you lose a larva. Overlords are handy though, can't lie about that.
I forget where it was, but I believe its been tested that the mining rates of each worker is different, so as to counteract this effect. IIRC Probes mine slower than SCVs which mine slower than Drones, so the net mining rate of each race is about the same. Also, I still fail to see how pylons being a RESTRICTION (forced to build around them, instead of anywhere, like Terran) is an ADVANTAGE to Protoss? Is it imbalanced that Terran has an "infinite" power grid, since their buildings can go wherever they want, without risk of losing power?
On October 01 2008 07:25 Krohm wrote:
I'm sure there is more, but chances are you Protoss players will just laugh at my points. (Even though they make perfect sense)
PM them to me then, I'll be willing to listen to what you say.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 01 2008 07:28 fusionsdf wrote:
overlords come later tech than observers?
I never said that. I said that OBSERVERS are LATE relative to ComSat and Overlords. That means that OBSERVERS come late. Way to read my post carefully.
On October 01 2008 07:28 fusionsdf wrote:
and observers are easier to ward off than overlords lololol
I thought this might need some explanation. Overlords cost 100 minerals. Observers cost 25 minerals and 75 gas. This means that Observers are more valuable to a player than Overlords are (especially given how abundant Overlords will be anyway). Combined with the fact that Overlords have MUCH more health than Observers, it is much harder to keep a Zerg player from seeing your tech by suiciding an Overlord than it is to keep a Protoss player from seeing your tech by suiciding an observer.
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Alot of people probably percieve Protoss as the easier race, personally I'm not really saying one way or the other.
I've been playing P for a couple of months now while having played Terran and to a small extent Zerg before and while P is easier for me now than when I started it's not really easier.
I think alot of people play Protoss because it's looked upon as easier, sure, people do this all the time (and example would be WoW and Rogue for example), but you gotta realize that not everyone is trying to achieve something, not everyone is trying to become the "best of the best".
Personally I decided to main Protoss simply because I find their units more asthetically pleasing, I also found their units more fun, reavers? Yes please, HTs with storm and illusion? Yes please, arbiters with recall and stasis? Hell yes! Wether it's a easier race or not, I think alot of people play Protoss simply because its more fun and their units are more pleasent than the other races.
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Since everyone here seems to think their highly intelligent scientist's by repeatedly stating things a long the lines of "I played Terran 2 years and im C-, but i got C with protoss in 2 weeks THEY EASY". My question is how can you even compare the races? Since the skill of the player is a massive variable involved in this calculation. The only way that you could some what see if protoss was imbalanced would be too take 2 players that have never played starcraft, put them in a room, tell one to play protoss and the other to play terran. After 2 weeks make them 1:1 bo7 to hopefully decrease the luck involved. But there is also another huge variable in this experiment, which would be the players background. Have they played RTS's before? Do they have strategical insight? Are they intelligent, or dumb? Just an endless list of variables.
In conclusion I think that it would be very hard to determine of protoss was truly imbalanced.
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On October 01 2008 06:53 ahole-surprise wrote:
"2)" is a contentious issue. Are there more protoss players because it's easier? Or because people just like protoss? I don't care to answer that question. But you seem to bend towards the latter, which I believe is a lot less plausible.
You really think so? Dude... when you chose what race you play now, had you played all three extensively?
Had you played all three extensively enough to know that at the D to C- level Protoss would (hypothetically) be easier?
No.... you pick the race that appeals to you most or that has the unit(s) you like the most.
If you really think there are an abundance of protoss players because it's easier, you are out of your mind. Most people don't play all three races up to the D+ level before choosing their main.
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I'm a P player, and I do believe that Protoss is the easiest race to learn for the average person. At our level which is between D and C i presume, P's macro is the easiest to learn -> just go to gateways and click click click~
For terran it takes insane hand speed (especially in TvZ where marines build in a flash), and zergs need to manage their larvae and drone count. However, in the pro level, I would guess it balances out.
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pff apm means absolutely nothing and people should not include it as an argument, I am about a 360 apm protoss, so does that mean i could become a super gosu terran player?
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On October 01 2008 08:54 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2008 06:53 ahole-surprise wrote:
"2)" is a contentious issue. Are there more protoss players because it's easier? Or because people just like protoss? I don't care to answer that question. But you seem to bend towards the latter, which I believe is a lot less plausible. You really think so? Dude... when you chose what race you play now, had you played all three extensively? Had you played all three extensively enough to know that at the D to C- level Protoss would (hypothetically) be easier? No.... you pick the race that appeals to you most or that has the unit(s) you like the most. If you really think there are an abundance of protoss players because it's easier, you are out of your mind. Most people don't play all three races up to the D+ level before choosing their main.
Wow.
Read the context, when I say "are there are more protoss players because it's easier?" I was referring to the foreigner community but more specifically, top foreigner events, like TSL and how events like them are dominated by protoss players. So the question is: are there simply more protoss players to begin with and that accounts for there being more top level protoss players or is it because protoss is the easiest to dominate with in the foreign scene because their mechanics are easier? I say the latter is more likely, and would be aided by people changing their race. In fact, your assertion that people just choose the race they like would be against the idea that there are simply more protoss players to begin with.
Just to give one example, Dreiven said he switched to protoss from terran, when Chill probed him if it was simply because protoss is easier, Dreiven said "reavers are imba", take what you want of that. Now don't quote this and say "omg that's just one example", yeah I know that, but I can't give you the life history of every top foreigner. I'm only speculating on trends. And that's why I said "i won't bother answering the question." But your quoting me, and not even knowing what I said, forced me to elaborate.
The only thing I'm sticking with is that protoss has easier mechanics.
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On October 01 2008 06:17 Divinek wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2008 03:36 0xDEADBEEF wrote:One recent example: Spirit Tournament thread: semifinals: P>Z, P>Z Note no T in semifinal, and the winner will be a P Just because they're better players doesn't make the race easy.
Maybe they're ONLY better players BECAUSE the race is easier...
It's also not the first time. We mysteriously have quite a few really good P players, and not as many Ts and Zs (and more Zs than Ts).
I really think this is not a coincidence.
It was different a few years ago, but in today's macro age, the foreign scene will continue to be dominated by P players, I'm very sure of that. Unless foreigners can somehow reach the same level of mechanics like progamers, so that multitasking is not a big problem anymore, but I doubt that. Bad multitasking remains the #1 weakness of foreigners, and using Protoss simplifies multitasking a lot compared to Z and especially T.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 01 2008 09:07 imperfect wrote:
I'm a P player, and I do believe that Protoss is the easiest race to learn for the average person. At our level which is between D and C i presume, P's macro is the easiest to learn -> just go to gateways and click click click~
For terran it takes insane hand speed (especially in TvZ where marines build in a flash), and zergs need to manage their larvae and drone count. However, in the pro level, I would guess it balances out.
Why is there this perception that its easier to macro Protoss? I conceded ages ago that micro was easier, but really? Sure Zerg has to manage larva, but keep in mind that since larva generate at a constant rate regardless of whether or not you use them (until you reach 3 larva) there's more leeway to constant production. Building 1 hydralisk when you have 1 larva and 1 when the second larva pops is the same as building them both when the second larva pops. Also, isn't a huge help to Terran that they can line their buildings up in neat rows, as opposed to having to center them around pylons?
And in TvP, Protoss has more gateways than Terran has factories. Protoss has MORE production buildings to manage in that matchup, especially since they also have to build out of Robotics Facilities more often than Terran has to build out of Starports.
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On October 01 2008 09:40 ahole-surprise wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2008 08:54 -orb- wrote:On October 01 2008 06:53 ahole-surprise wrote:
"2)" is a contentious issue. Are there more protoss players because it's easier? Or because people just like protoss? I don't care to answer that question. But you seem to bend towards the latter, which I believe is a lot less plausible. You really think so? Dude... when you chose what race you play now, had you played all three extensively? Had you played all three extensively enough to know that at the D to C- level Protoss would (hypothetically) be easier? No.... you pick the race that appeals to you most or that has the unit(s) you like the most. If you really think there are an abundance of protoss players because it's easier, you are out of your mind. Most people don't play all three races up to the D+ level before choosing their main. Wow. Read the context, when I say "are there are more protoss players because it's easier?" I was referring to the foreigner community but more specifically, top foreigner events, like TSL and how events like them are dominated by protoss players. So the question is: are there simply more protoss players to begin with and that accounts for there being more top level protoss players or is it because protoss is the easiest to dominate with in the foreign scene because their mechanics are easier? I say the latter is more likely, and would be aided by people changing their race. In fact, your assertion that people just choose the race they like would be against the idea that there are simply more protoss players to begin with. Just to give one example, Dreiven said he switched to protoss from terran, when Chill probed him if it was simply because protoss is easier, Dreiven said "reavers are imba", take what you want of that. Now don't quote this and say "omg that's just one example", yeah I know that, but I can't give you the life history of every top foreigner. I'm only speculating on trends. And that's why I said "i won't bother answering the question." But your quoting me, and not even knowing what I said, forced me to elaborate. The only thing I'm sticking with is that protoss has easier mechanics.
this is irrelevant to the foreigner scene, but didnt stork switch from terran to protoss because terran was too difficult?
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didn't tossgirl swtich from protoss to terran because protoss was to hard?
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no she switched because of her sister didnt she? (or just because she enjoyed macro)
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Common too play terran all you need is fast hands. Is that really so hard to achieve? I could become an A+ terran player, since I do have fast hands, but i decide to challenge myself and play a race which requires actual skill, PROTOSS~
**EDITED 1st part**
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On October 01 2008 11:52 fusionsdf wrote:
no she switched because of her sister didnt she? (or just because she enjoyed macro)
actually iirc she said something along the lines of PvZ being too difficult for her.
Maybe someone could search for that.
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