This is not going to be a happy blog. In fact this blog will likely provoke some harsh criticism from virtually every member on this site. But this blog speaks of a harsh reality - one which we all hope never would actually eventuate. Boxer should retire from Starcraft Progaming.
Boxer is sad because its true
Boxer's career has been a story of continual reinvention and extreme highs and lows. Following Boxer's dominant period (ending with his loss to GARIMTO in SKY01) Boxer was forced to bring himself back up to speed. However in NATE OSL he went 0-3 in his group which showed quite strongly that he was desperately in need of a reinvention. Then in SKY 2002 Boxer's reinvention lead to him making the finals of the OSL - where he lost to Reach in another close final.
The loss to reach prompted Boxer to leave IS and form his own team - 4 Union (later Dong Yang and SKT1). Indeed the switch over to DY caused its fair share of drama and was the only solution Boxer could see to returning to his winning ways. While his play degraded over the next year he managed to raise one of the strongest teams in Brood War history and his role as a mentor and inspiration became firmly cemented in the minds of all fans of progaming as well as the progamers themselves.
His star pupil, iloveoov, lead the way in the macro revolution which changed the very fundamentals of the game. The game became about who could produce more rather than who could defeat his opponent in one single attack with brilliant micro. This change hurt Boxer's style, as can be seen in his sharp decline in form. However, Boxer, the master of reinvention, came back and ascended to the finals of EVER 2004 after showing promising games in KT-KTF 2004 earlier that year. Boxer brought all his tricks to the table, and even with his improved macro, could not topple the monster Terran.
Once again Boxer's form declined and fans were worried that they had seen the last of him - of course Boxer is a far superior player to that. Boxer once again redefined himself and adapted to the innovations of FD terran amongst other trends. Indeed, Boxer improved so remarkably that he once again returned to the OSL finals. After a remarkable OSL run in So1, including possibly the greatest comeback of all time against Pusan, he fell to Anytime in the final 2-3. Despite his total redefinition he couldn't muster a win. OGN believed that he would take the win, and arguably created to the Golden Mouse as an award for Boxer to win to make him seem like the best Starcraft gamer in existence. However, the plan backfired and obviously, Boxer lost.
Boxer after his comeback vs Pusan
With his military service looming on the horizon, Boxer picked up his game dramatically after a short decline and went on a rediculous 13-0 TvZ streak amongst other things. Shinhwa stopped Boxer in his last OSL run in Shinhan 1 OSL and then FireBatHero knocked Boxer out of his ODT group and OGN said goodbye to Boxer for a long time. In Pringles MSL, however, Boxer looked to be able to win the whole tournament after a ridiculously strong victory over Ra on Blitz in which Boxer showed that his macro was very much up to standard, and in fact was bloody scary. Boxer's MSL run was cut short, and was forced to join the military after the group stages were played out.
But then progaming threw Boxer a bone and created ACE - just in time for Boxer to join and make the team something amazing. Sadly, ACE will be the final nail in Boxer's coffin. Despite his brilliance and ability to adapt and redefine himself - this time the skill discrepancy is just too wide for him to catch up. Since Boxer has joined ACE his winrate has dropped to a substandard 40.32% (25-37) and noting that most teams opt to send out their B-Team's to dispatch of ACE, these figures are not reassuring.
The fundamental question here is what is stopping Boxer from coming back like he has done before and after maybe 6~ months return to tip-top shape. Well there are a number of forces at work here...
1) Mass influx of new gamers Since Boxer left for the Air Force, there has been a substantial change in the composition of proteams. Old gosus have faded away or retired and a mass of new energetic and hungry gamers have risen to take their place. Players like Best, Jaedong and Flash represent the youth of today in all their shining glory. The fact that most of the gamers on the top 30 are vastly different to 2 years ago clearly shows this if nothing else. In addition to the rise in youth gamers the competition has risen exponentially - even one off game these days is enough to send you home, and we have not seen a dominant figure in a long time as a consequence. These young gamers pose a serious threat to any comeback attempt Boxer will stage purely because of the intense competition and significantly higher skill level. This follows on nicely to...
2) The skill discrepancy between Boxer now and the average gamer is far greater than it has ever been since the start of Boxer's career What this essentially says is that Boxer has a huge amount of work to do to catch up to even the average 50% gamers of today. Before reinvention was easy, because Boxer was never below average for a gamer and was always a threat. Now any scrub has a decent shot at taking him down. If nothing else, Garimto's stunt proved that it's ridiculously hard for a gamer to make up a huge skill gap even with a significant amount of raw talent. This is one hurdle Boxer simply cannot jump.
3) The "Boxer" effect If by some miracle Boxer managed to return to ODT/Survivor the "Boxer" effect kicks in. Gamers instantly recognize that Boxer is their opponent and Boxer is synonymous with Starcraft genius. Hence gamers prepare harder to fight against Boxer than any normal gamer. This is partly due to his fame as Mr Stacraft and partly because of his traditional super high skill. This make any serious run extremely difficult because the gamers are better prepared than normal.
So what does Boxer have going in his favor? Well the simply answer is cheese. Boxer is the one gamer in all of Starcraft (aside from Ra) who can cheese and be called a genius. Any other gamer who cheeses in a similar fashion is looked down upon by the community. Don't beleive me? What about Flash vs Bisu on Monty Hall? That was a Boxer-esque cheese that everyone hated purely because Flash was "just another terran" at that point. Anyway, Boxer can still cheese - as he's proven throughout his time on ACE. But sadly, this isn't NATE OSL anymore and you can't cheese yourself to an OSL final. Even Boxer's biggest asset won't help him in ascending the individual leagues.
Basically, in light of all of this it is not unfair to conclude that Boxer will have a steep learning curve to get back up to speed - one which he probably won't be able to scale. However, Boxer has one important aspect about him which gives him a chance in Progaming - his charisma and role as a mentor. Boxer is the mentor figure and knows how to inspire a team to victory. He got ACE from #12 -> #11. He trained Oov into a monster. He performed the Proleague Grand Slam in 2005 by winning Round 1, Round 2 AND the Grand Final. Upon his departure the team fell apart which can't just be a coincidence. Boxer's Progaming future lies within a Mentor position within the team, a "player-coach" or "coach" if you will.
Although the thought of Boxer in an OSL finals gives me wet dreams at night, realistically it's never going to happen. He's never going to get to that Golden Mouse. Boxer will forever be "just another Terran" for the rest of his career thanks to the enormous setback ACE has had on his career. Boxer's career as a progamer after ACE is for the large part over. He'll pop up in Proleague from time to time - but will never advance out of his preliminary group. This is the sad truth.
I love you Boxer, but it's time so hang up your mouse.
=[ please be kind!! But I strongly encourage discussion on the topic though!!
EDIT: theres a number of people simply saying "i disagree", well thats nice but if you could say why you disagree then we will have some pretty decent discussion floating around in this thread
UPDATE: 9/08/08 19:37
Alright, in creating this article i wrote it under the premise that 99% of teamliquid would immediately reject the idea... but then people started agreeing with it. Theres probably somewhere between 10~25% of users here which have expressed that Boxer will not return to starcraft.
There were a number of omissions in the article, most of which ack aptly picked up. The most important thing about Boxer, which I didn't say anything about, is his passion for Starcraft. Above everything else this differentiates Boxer from every other progamer that has ever played the game. TheMarine was considered one of the only players who could go toe-to-toe with the Emperor, yet his interest waned and his skill deteriorated and he couldn't bounce back. That being said, his revival in 2004 was nothing short of miraculous, especially seeing as how TheMarine was reduced to the level of a B amateur before he staged his comeback.
TheMarine is proof that Boxer can, and will, come back to progaming. TheMarine's story is often forgotten amongst the glory stories of Nada, July and Oov. But look at it this way. TheMarine was comparable to Boxer in every way back in 2001, well, even before that really. But then in his slump between 2002-2003 he royally sucked. Over a period of two years (approximately the length of time that Boxer has been in the army) he made the group stages of two OSLs and one MSL and was eliminated in pathetic fashion in each of them. But on the whole, TheMarine never really achieved much and the record of 43.68% (38-49). Now compare this record to 40.32% (25-37) and you can see that Boxer's record during his stay in the airforce (where he made an MSL appearance) is perfectly comparable to TheMarines.
TheMarine had unlimited practice time, Boxer has restricted practice time
It was comparatively easier to maintain a 43% winrate in 2002/2003 than a 40% winrate in 2008
Boxer has a greater drive/passion/inspiration to keep playing than TheMarine
Im sure there are more parallels that i could draw but the bottom line is - Boxer is in a similar situation to TheMarine; and he came back to place third in an MSL in 2004.
Will the comeback be easy? No Will Boxer give up? No Is Boxer going to comeback? Yes he fucking will
Increase Boxer's practice time, increase Boxer's access to progaming and just watch as he gets exponentially better and fights his way back to the top. If TheMarine can do it, Boxer most certainly can.
While drawing the parallel to TheMarine may seem invalid, if you actually both to go read some of Boxer's recent interviews (notably this one) you can see that Boxer has as much passion as he has ever had and really this is the key component to a successful comeback. To become great at Starcraft one simply needs talent + will power. As we all know Boxer currently has both of these components, and that means that even if he instantly gets demoted to B-Team that he will rise from the ashes and will indeed add to his already impressive legend.
I'd like to see boxer try to get back into form for a few months. If it doesn't work out, then go to something better. What kindof a role model would he be if he didn't at least try to make it work?
On August 08 2008 22:55 chameleonia wrote: maybe... but then again who saw the july golden mouse coming?
I was just about to say that.
I don't know really, people have always loved Boxer despite his results, his games are pretty much always entertaining, which is all i want when i watch pro-games. I'd rather watch Boxer's still entertaining games then follow some 100-0 stats guy who just plays standard and "safe" in order to win all the titles.
I say as long as he can produce entertaining games he should continue.
To oversimplify: Boxer needs more practice than he can get, and his style won't get him anywhere anymore - he's playing against a different crowd.
Well...... you just spent like 9/10 of your post talking about how he was awesome because he kept changing his style. *shrug*
I dunno, I think it's still possible that starcraft can be optimized more, and it's possible that boxer will do it. Not holding my breath, but that's no reason to quit.
On August 08 2008 22:55 chameleonia wrote: maybe... but then again who saw the july golden mouse coming?
Since when did July drop off the top 30 rankings? The thing is about July is that he never really went away and has been a feature of SC even during his slump he regularly made OSLs in 06 and made 3/4 of the GOMTV MSLs. He also qualified for Bacchus. Essentially, the skill discrepancy between July and your average gamer was always positive (ie July was better) and really, July posted rather consistent results for a long time even though he made no strong impact on the scene.
Thats why July's case isn't exactly the same as Boxers Julys case is more like Boxer between EVER04/So1 where boxer was good but not great.
On August 08 2008 23:02 BottleAbuser wrote: To oversimplify: Boxer needs more practice than he can get, and his style won't get him anywhere anymore - he's playing against a different crowd.
Well...... you just spent like 9/10 of your post talking about how he was awesome because he kept changing his style. *shrug*
I dunno, I think it's still possible that starcraft can be optimized more, and it's possible that boxer will do it. Not holding my breath, but that's no reason to quit.
more like 5/10 which was totally intentional btw. Boxers "style" doesn't exist anymore either, he plays the same brand of generic Terran - but through the eyes of fanboys this becomes something more than what it really is. In fact, Boxer's "style" has been dead since EVER04 imo, possibly earlier. He's always simply been adapating the modern take on Terran as most other Terrans have done.
Yes Starcraft can still be optimized, but those who are optimizing the game are getting younger and younger. Can you say that July or Nada has optimized the game any further since their prime? No we can't. Jaedong (young) has picked up where savior left off and innovated, Luxury has too, Flash (youngest) has done similar things with terran, and Best for Protoss. Boxer will just follow the current trend and really won't be able to optimize Terran any more imo.
boxer is an extremely strong-willed person. the mentality described in his book proves that. if he really tries hard and has more time on his hands after his military service finishes.. who knows. virtually nobody has put so much thought into starcraft than he did in the past and maybe he'll be able to invent yet another style with which he'll crush his opponents. if he still possesses the mechanics to do so, i don't know.. but immense experience coupled with great dedication may lead him to his goals.
On August 08 2008 23:08 Chill wrote: I completely disagree. I think you sell the greatest StarCraft player ever quite short.
Greatest in what regard? He is far from the most successful gamer of all time and doesn't have too many stats on paper to support that claim.
ALTHOUGH he did conceive the progaming scene which makes him the most influential gamer of all time (which i think is what you were getting at). The industry is established quite strongly now, and because oft hat the competition has risen dramatically. Don't get me wrong, I love boxer. But if you look realistically at the state of progaming and the state of boxer you must appreciate the mammoth task ahead of him.
On August 08 2008 23:08 Chill wrote: I completely disagree. I think you sell the greatest StarCraft player ever quite short.
Greatest in what regard? He is far from the most successful gamer of all time and doesn't have too many stats on paper to support that claim.
ALTHOUGH he did conceive the progaming scene which makes him the most influential gamer of all time (which i think is what you were getting at). The industry is established quite strongly now, and because oft hat the competition has risen dramatically. Don't get me wrong, I love boxer. But if you look realistically at the state of progaming and the state of boxer you must appreciate the mammoth task ahead of him.
Greatest in my arbitrary ranking system. He doesn't have the best micro, his macro is second or third class and his multitasking isn't the highest level ever. He does seem to have a lock on both Star sense and mind games, and I think that's what makes me think of his as the greatest ever.
Can you think of another player with so many comebacks as Boxer? Forget that, how about another player who has as many sucessful gambits as Boxer?
On August 08 2008 23:08 Chill wrote: I completely disagree. I think you sell the greatest StarCraft player ever quite short.
Greatest in what regard? He is far from the most successful gamer of all time and doesn't have too many stats on paper to support that claim.
ALTHOUGH he did conceive the progaming scene which makes him the most influential gamer of all time (which i think is what you were getting at). The industry is established quite strongly now, and because oft hat the competition has risen dramatically. Don't get me wrong, I love boxer. But if you look realistically at the state of progaming and the state of boxer you must appreciate the mammoth task ahead of him.
Greatest in my arbitrary ranking system. He doesn't have the best micro, his macro is second or third class and his multitasking isn't the highest level ever. He does seem to have a lock on both Star sense and mind games, and I think that's what makes me think of his as the greatest ever.
Can you think of another player with so many comebacks as Boxer? Forget that, how about another player who has as many sucessful gambits as Boxer?
Ra comes close (ish) as does Nada and July. But yes, i agree that no player has had the rapid oscillations of extremes like boxer has. But the difference in his skill now is just so much greater than it has ever been throughout his career. Of course, if anyone can come back from the gap and win something - it will be boxer, no one else. However, i think this leap is just too big
On August 08 2008 23:08 Chill wrote: I completely disagree. I think you sell the greatest StarCraft player ever quite short.
Greatest in what regard? He is far from the most successful gamer of all time and doesn't have too many stats on paper to support that claim.
ALTHOUGH he did conceive the progaming scene which makes him the most influential gamer of all time (which i think is what you were getting at). The industry is established quite strongly now, and because oft hat the competition has risen dramatically. Don't get me wrong, I love boxer. But if you look realistically at the state of progaming and the state of boxer you must appreciate the mammoth task ahead of him.
Greatest in my arbitrary ranking system. He doesn't have the best micro, his macro is second or third class and his multitasking isn't the highest level ever. He does seem to have a lock on both Star sense and mind games, and I think that's what makes me think of his as the greatest ever.
Can you think of another player with so many comebacks as Boxer? Forget that, how about another player who has as many sucessful gambits as Boxer?
Boxer has fucking titanium steel balls, so word on that assessment ^^;;
You make a very strong arguement, and if he was anyone but Boxer, I would agree. I'm just not understanding why he wouldn't at least try. I'm sure he'll rake in the fans by the thousands aswell, which means a possible small jump in popularity when he comes back.
I dont know, boxer has been pretty dedicated =/ maybe when he gets outta the army he train x5123123 and do his best and maybe he win? hmmm i think if boxer retires, then every other older pro that considered boxer thier rival like yellow / ra would probably consider retiring to this could possibly make a chain reaction to every old pro TT
boxer should retire, but hes like michael jordan boxer practically defined the game of starcraft everyone knows who lim yo hwan is and even though he is busy in the air force, he is still pulling off awesome moves like the lockdown on that arbiter (i think it was free but i'm not sure) and the nukes vs odin (even though he lost, it was still extremely entertaining to watch)
I respect you, Plexa, very much - I really do , but I can not agree with your blog because: 1. I don't want Boxer to win Golden Mouse, another title or something - I just want to watch him and from him - to produce entertaining games (not all games, just once in a while and that will make me happy). 2. You said that Boxer is the master of reinvention and he prove it not once back in the years - why? - because his strong mind and mentality - and that is something ACE and the army can not affect at all - even for 2 years of service. 3. Yep, the "Boxer effect" is something scary and maybe even the last scrub will train hard if he is facing Boxer, but don't you think Boxer will train hard also? I do think, and he has something that the scrub doesn't - he is Boxer, they fear him and he does not fear some scrubs, because they are scrubs. 4. He wants to play. - That's the strongest argument I can think of and that means - "I will make everything in my power to train, to adapt, to think and to win a games", because this is Boxer - even when he is in ACE - he plays for win and never give up. Now he will be out of ACE soon - and if he wants to play - I just can't see any "scrubs" defeating him. Yes, maybe the new generation of top-notch progamers can defeat him, but then again --> see point 1 .
That's all I can say about this blog. I don't want to argue with anyone, fan or not, that's just my opinion . It may be wrong, but hey, I can hope, can't I ?
It all depends on his love for the game (very strong) and his will to stay as a progamer (also very strong). Humans are adaptable creatures and I hope he can overcome the obstacles lying ahead. If anything his military service should strengthen his mentality rather than make it ebb.
disagree. people have been saying that come backs are hard across every generation of starcraft. boxer never really even went away. throughout his entire military service he was still active, to what degree we can't really tell, but in the very least boxer has proved through the proleague on ace that he is capable of at least hanging with the best (unlike a certain clon)
imo boxer is one of the most entertaining players to watch. So keep him! If he is to quit, proleague atleast needs sepirose and aSuKa.Jr to make up for him.
I don't think the argument boxer will be "just another terran" should matter. Even if he doesn't win starleagues anymore he can still be a good player. This blog makes me think of Chris Chelios, the guy is like 45 years old and he was still playing in the NHL on the last season, he even had a spot on the eventual cup winner team. I think it's nice to see old schools around, like Boxer, or Chelios, and to see that they can still do their job even if they are not number1 anymore.
And if really Boxer can't catch up, he should at least do like Garimto did: try his best for a decent amount of time and then take his decision from the results he got.
The way I see it... it's too late for Boxer to "quit while he's ahead". So now it's time to apply the next principle: "you miss 100% of the shots you don't attempt". Maybe we won't be seeing Boxer going on dominating streaks and winning that golden mouse, but his style of play is entertaining and inspiring in itself. And isn't that why we watch progamers, for entertainment?
If anyone can do it, Boxer can. Boxer is the one who started this whole thing. He's the one who pushed himself further than anyone else, and every progamer today is taking advantage of what he built. To do something like that, you have to be of a certain mindset. Do you think it was easy being one of the first progamers in that culture? He is a diamond in the rough, and if he puts his mind to it I don't see why he can't succeed? Are you saying because of his age he won't be able to learn 400 APM? I don't think these new kids have any strategy advantage over him.. In fact I'd argue they are more vulnerable to strategy changes than anyone else. Savior, for example, couldn't cope with having to change his strategy at all. Once it was exposed he was ruined.
It's a little bit like Brett Favre (I KNOW you all want to hate this, but hear me out). He can still do it, better than the young kids, better than most anyone. Maybe he doesn't have the same arm strength as always, maybe he can't get out of the pocket quite as fast, or learn the massive playbook the coaches have these days.. but can he still WIN GAMES? Yes, definitely.
Boxer can still make it happen, he just needs to WANT to win.
When I first saw the title of the blog I was thinking it was a sarcastic title. I was hoping it would be an article that would take the ' Boxer should quit mentality ' and flip it. However, after reading through it a few times all I found myself doing was shaking my head. I think you deserve a proper response from a prominent Boxer fan like myself because of all the hard work you put into every article you write and the quality that has come to be assumed when it is followed by ' - Plexa '
I'll be the first to admit: Yes you're right. If Boxer chooses to continue as a progamer [ which he will ] in SKT1, things are gonna be difficult. No, difficult is an understatement. The leap you described is almost insurmountable and yes as BottleAbuser said here:
On August 08 2008 23:35 BottleAbuser wrote: So, in the end... on one side we have
"He's Boxer!"
On the other side:
"But still human."
WHO WILL PREVAIL?
at least people still have the respect to know that if anyone could do it, ' it's boxer '
So what does Boxer have going for him? His micro is always unquestionable, although has been shaky in a game or two the past year. His macro has improved greatly since his dominating period nobody can deny this, but still it isn't considered S-Class and consistent. His sense of star is among the highest, his mind games are paramount and in my humble opinion he, rA and Garimto share the title of having the best map preparation.
You also addressed cheese. I cringed a little at this passage. You stated that this is his biggest asset. I think out of all the articles I've ever read by you this is the only flat out incongruity that I've read and I had trouble swallowing. You love Boxer obviously as you have said many times, but really? You think cheese is his biggest asset? Even in the context of in-game mechanics cheese is Boxer's ace up his sleeve? There's a reason flash and other gamers get looked down upon. Yes they may do boxer-esque cheeses but they never do BOXER ' cheeses '. By that I mean 3-0'ing a Yellow in a semi, by that I mean sometimes winning games by sheer unsurmountable willpower. The only other time I have *felt* will winning a game through a tv screen was when JulyZerg first appeared on the scene and his lings seemingly *willed* their way into victory. Not only this, but when Boxer wins with cheese its like seeing the game fast-forwarded. Sure, the tech isn't there so you won't see Boxer locking down a shitload of carriers or vulture mining his way through pylons or nuke rushing, but the style is the same. Even with marines and scvs who only have mining/building/repairing[terran imba -___-] and stimming abilities outside their normal attack he makes magic in the beginning minutes of the game. It's hard to come with names who can create this same magic with gay strats looked down upon like cheese. If Boxer played Zerg his 5pools would be the same as any other zerg. Nobody would say he is a genius. But because he is Terran, because he is the emperor, because he seemingly *wills* his way into winning with Terran cheese as only Terran can, that's why other Terrans get looked down upon and he gets called a genius.
The other thing I would like to address is: Boxer wants to be a 30 year old gamer. In fact the first, even before Nada. Even if this guy was Mumyung [ back in the day ] I would still find space in my heart to cheer for him. If not for the pure advancement of the e-Sport that we all follow [ or followed ] religiously, this is a great victory and a huge fuck you to the nay sayers. But is this man Mumyung? Hell no. This is Boxer. The traditional representative of starcraft progaming as a whole wants to be a 30 year old gamer. He's won his OSLs he's been top KESPA longer than anyone, he's beaten rivals, lost to rivals. He's cried and gone through harsh teams like IS and ACE. Who is anyone to say that he can't and shouldn't pursue being a 30+ gamer.
On a more personal note, unlike the gamers that I see nowadays are a hell of a lot more machine-like and don't seem to love the game like the old gamers. And even if they do they are too young to know it. I stayed in korea for the last 2 months and during that time even I, who was not really intending on following progaming, simply had to because it was everywhere and conveniently on TV all the time. Watching Flash, Jaedong, Lux, etc all those people on the Power Rank yes I was impressed but none of them had sense of star. Best was the only one I could cheer for because he has that flair of old gamers. In the July vs Best final I didn't really care who won because July is a zerg hero to me and Best was the student of Kingdom, humble and just generally a bad-ass with old school player vibes.
Anyway what I'm trying to say is even Flash and Jaedong who are considered the highest calibre of pro-gamers ever to exist, don't have sense of star. They've had plenty of time to cement themselves and maybe the fact they are both good at the same time denies them the opportunity to become bonjwas and grand slams and all the other highest pro-gaming achievements but to use this as a reason is a insult to Oov, July, Xellos, Boxer, Reach all the greats. In their time its not like their skill was so overly higher than their closest competition. [ Maybe Oov ]
People are quick to say Flash/Jaedong/New generation players have done so much for this game but if they were to retire right now. If they were to quit and never play another game would people still be in awe? I don't think so....in fact I think people are excited because they are seeing the process it takes to be the superstar champions. They're both young and they have unlimited potential, but if they quit now I'm betting Boxer's in-game only results would stand out more to fans. Why is this? Even if they have higher winning percentages against arguably more competitive players? Even if they would destroy Boxer? I think you know the answer.
The last thing I would like to say is. You forgot to address Boxer's love for this game and what it represents. You have to remember Boxer choose Oov, the most dominating player of all time. Yes, even more dominating than TL's beloved Savior.
If Boxer's desire entails becoming a progamer, or becoming a caster, or becoming a coach. We as fans who have watched him evolve OWE it to give him the choice. All he has done for us, this game, this community and someone is gonna have the balls to tell him he should quit or not pursue something he genuinely lives and breathes? It sure as fuck isn't going to be me, and I think if you give it some time you'll realize its not up to you either.
I'd like to end with this quote of myself from 2004. I feel its appropriate.
On September 18 2004 09:39 Ack1027 wrote: For those of you who have doubts about Boxer ever becoming great again, let me just say one thing.
Before I went to Korea 3 months ago, I always ALWAYS wanted to meet Boxer in person, for my age it was like one of my life goals, I was only 9-10 when I saw his first plays on Game-Q on a ghetto ass computer and ever since then he has inspired me, not only through starcraft but because of the amazing dedication he has.
I used to go to Korea every summer for 4 summers straight, and the very last time I went, the seeds of starcraft were planted. When I got back to America I was introduced to Starcraft and omg I fell in love with this game, and when my cousins were like ' Omg have you heard of Eem Yo Hwan?!? ' and they showed me his amazing plays I was in fucking shock.
I watched him climb up all the way through the competition and tear through his opponents.
And just 3 months ago, I was excited as BALLS to get to fucking Korea, because my family had financial issues I didn't continue my Korean vacation every summer so I hadn't been there in 5 years. And now I was fully aware of Starcraft's prestige.
As soon as I got on the plane all I could think about was ' Wow maybe I can meet Boxer/Yellow/Garimto/Other players and maybe even get a autograph and a picture.
The first match I was able to attend was Boxer vs Nal_Rock in the past challenge league [ I think that was it ] and I'm even in that VOD, in the best seat possible I went 3 hours early and the only reason I didn't get 1st row is because that's reserved for his fan club.
He left promptly after the match and I soon realized that, that was going to happen every time and I'd NEVER get to meet with him.
But that all changed when the Tucson league came about and the match between SKT1 and Hanbit began.
I realized my terror as the teams came in because I was sitting on the Hanbit side - _-v
But I said fuck it, and as soon as Boxer was about to leave to go buy a drink or something I stopped him and said ' Hi I'm from America, can I get your autograph? '
He smiled and said sure, what's your name?
I still have that paper in the Boxer DVD box and I look at it from time to time.
I've followed him pretty well and I can tell you he is a humble guy only trying to do his best in the one thing in life he has found that is FUN and earns him money while meeting great people. My previous thoughts about him were only further affirmed as I watched him play in real life, not only in VODs and his grand amount of concentration.
Boxer never lost his greatness, he will always be great.
He just can't give up now, the timing is wrong. Boxer is the greatest player of all time in many peoples arbitrary rankings, I believe it's because he's the best strategist. He tries things others wouldn't even attempt.
Who knows what will happen when he starts practicing full time once more? If he quits now he can never go back, he's only going to get slower. He has a chance now, even if it's just a small one, to do well in a competition, to amaze us all once more. I don't think he should throw that away for fear of losing to new players.
On August 09 2008 00:04 Emptyness wrote: I respect you, Plexa, very much - I really do , but I can not agree with your blog because: 1. I don't want Boxer to win Golden Mouse, another title or something - I just want to watch him and from him - to produce entertaining games (not all games, just once in a while and that will make me happy). 2. You said that Boxer is the master of reinvention and he prove it not once back in the years - why? - because his strong mind and mentality - and that is something ACE and the army can not affect at all - even for 2 years of service. 3. Yep, the "Boxer effect" is something scary and maybe even the last scrub will train hard if he is facing Boxer, but don't you think Boxer will train hard also? I do think, and he has something that the scrub doesn't - he is Boxer, they fear him and he does not fear some scrubs, because they are scrubs. 4. He wants to play. - That's the strongest argument I can think of and that means - "I will make everything in my power to train, to adapt, to think and to win a games", because this is Boxer - even when he is in ACE - he plays for win and never give up. Now he will be out of ACE soon - and if he wants to play - I just can't see any "scrubs" defeating him. Yes, maybe the new generation of top-notch progamers can defeat him, but then again --> see point 1 .
That's all I can say about this blog. I don't want to argue with anyone, fan or not, that's just my opinion . It may be wrong, but hey, I can hope, can't I ?
You're more than welcome to disagree with this blog, thats the entire point of posting a controversial argument! And in fact your post is very good rebuttal to the initial blog <3 kudos
From your post (and some of the others!) there are two things on which to judge this by;
1) What is success for Boxer? 2) Is his motivation to play enough for him to succeed (to the extent in 1).
The first part is completely subjective. Some people just want to watch his games and watch him play creatively, while others expect him to be a starleague contender. With this varying level of expectation there is atleast bound to be some disappointment amongst fans (unless he wins a golden mouse of course). But an important thing to factor in is what does success mean to Boxer?. What level of play will satisfy his urges to get better? Being a natural champion i doubt he would be settling for anything less than starleague contention. And this brings up nicely point (2)
Does Boxer have the determination to get to that point? Difficult to say really. While the margins are larger than they were before Boxer has been the master of reinvention and revival. He has faced some very hard times (especially in 2003) and has come back even stronger each time. Somehow i don't think Boxer will give up, ever, theres too much riding on him. But at the same time i don't think he'll get back to starleague contention because of the enormous setback he has taken.
Then comes this question - what is the best way for Boxer to spend his time? Coaching others and creating the best progaming team in existence like he did before, or similarly diverting his attention to other facets of esports. OR should he continue to play and likely not go anywhere. Personally to me the better spending of his time is in coaching or similar rather than playing. And thats why Boxer should (but won't) quit Starcraft.
I enjoyed reading your post but age is just another barrier created by people. Boxer has always been a very passionate advocate of starcraft and I do not believe for a second that getting older should prevent anybody from following or continuing their dreams. If he feels this strongly about coming back and has proven that he has in the past then why should we have any say in this? You said that he has reinvented himself in the past multiple times but because of the skill level it was easier to do. While the skill level was certainly much lower in 2003 then it is now there is no denying that hard work and undying love will prevail in the face of uncertainty. It comes down to whether you think Boxer will quit or rise above this challenge. Now I am not generally an optimistic person but my thoughts rest with the latter.
Has Boxer finished his military service yet? I keep hearing about him finishing up this year.
Once he leaves the Air Force and goes back to SKT1(safe assumption?), we should watch his performance over 6 months, then judge. Boxer has the never give up attitude that only a rare few pro-gamers can match, for example NaDa and maybe July. Incidentally those 2 are the only holders of the Golden Mouse today.
I am sure Boxer felt more encouraged about seeing July's fortune this year, and honestly we can't judge him too well from his performances in ACE since he cannot practice as much there compared to other pro-gamers. It is the army after all!
I still believe that Boxer has the passion to win, we've see many players that have lost their drive and faded into mediocrity, but BOXER IS STILL FIGHTING!
He'll always have a psychologic advantage against almost any opponent... in bo1s they will build slower eco safe builds because well he's boxer, and in bigger games boxer will likely cheese his opponent once exactly like july/best finals... I can see him making some kind of comeback however a full boxeresque era is unlikely to ever reproduce itself :[.
On August 08 2008 23:03 alffla wrote: WTF NO WAI EVEN THOUGH I HATE BOXER SO MUCH BECAUSE IM A HARDCORE YELLOW FAN BUT HOW CAN U SAY SUCH THINGS T_____T PLEAXAAA!!!
If Favre isn't retired, there's no reason why BoxeR should.
By the way, I already PM'd this but I felt like I should bring it up for everyone.
Grats to Plexa for having the balls to post something like this. Instead of responses like alffla's [ very understandable =p ] we should applaud this progression of TL writing.
It seems like every Boxer thread in recent months involves people posting a few sentences in support of Boxer and then never checking back or progressing the discussion. There's real content here folks, so let's talk about it. After all, there isn't much time left till he comes back to SKT1.
Another thing to discuss is the optimistic side of ACE. [ I'm definitely not an optimist but.... ] His legacy left behind for the new comers from KTF etc~
As a small tangent point, Iloveoov lacked the motivation to keep fighting (one could argue that without boxer this was inevitable anyway) and Boxer went into bigger slumps than Oov did. This shows that Boxer has got significantly greater determination/motivation to keep going. The question becomes is that quantity enough?
The fact that he still plays is amazing though, he will not quit. But you do make good points, the boxer effect I believe is true, and also the fact that one game can make you go home now because there are so many young progamers instead of back then when there were not much. I still get really excited when he plays b/c you know there will be something only boxer would do, like when he lockdowned that arbiter and those nukes. I will be so happy if he can at least make it to ro8 or something
But I don't agree with you saying he will become just another terran, he invented terran dropship plays and his micro, especially in the early years. And also, his macro has gotten better, his micro isn't that good but he's been playing more of TvP's.
But plexa, you got some balls to write something like this. I'm suprised that nobody has tried to flame you for writing something like this. Maybe cuz you're plexa? :D
On August 09 2008 00:04 Emptyness wrote: I respect you, Plexa, very much - I really do , but I can not agree with your blog because: 1. I don't want Boxer to win Golden Mouse, another title or something - I just want to watch him and from him - to produce entertaining games (not all games, just once in a while and that will make me happy). 2. You said that Boxer is the master of reinvention and he prove it not once back in the years - why? - because his strong mind and mentality - and that is something ACE and the army can not affect at all - even for 2 years of service. 3. Yep, the "Boxer effect" is something scary and maybe even the last scrub will train hard if he is facing Boxer, but don't you think Boxer will train hard also? I do think, and he has something that the scrub doesn't - he is Boxer, they fear him and he does not fear some scrubs, because they are scrubs. 4. He wants to play. - That's the strongest argument I can think of and that means - "I will make everything in my power to train, to adapt, to think and to win a games", because this is Boxer - even when he is in ACE - he plays for win and never give up. Now he will be out of ACE soon - and if he wants to play - I just can't see any "scrubs" defeating him. Yes, maybe the new generation of top-notch progamers can defeat him, but then again --> see point 1 .
That's all I can say about this blog. I don't want to argue with anyone, fan or not, that's just my opinion . It may be wrong, but hey, I can hope, can't I ?
You're more than welcome to disagree with this blog, thats the entire point of posting a controversial argument! And in fact your post is very good rebuttal to the initial blog <3 kudos
From your post (and some of the others!) there are two things on which to judge this by;
1) What is success for Boxer? 2) Is his motivation to play enough for him to succeed (to the extent in 1).
The first part is completely subjective. Some people just want to watch his games and watch him play creatively, while others expect him to be a starleague contender. With this varying level of expectation there is atleast bound to be some disappointment amongst fans (unless he wins a golden mouse of course). But an important thing to factor in is what does success mean to Boxer?. What level of play will satisfy his urges to get better? Being a natural champion i doubt he would be settling for anything less than starleague contention. And this brings up nicely point (2)
Does Boxer have the determination to get to that point? Difficult to say really. While the margins are larger than they were before Boxer has been the master of reinvention and revival. He has faced some very hard times (especially in 2003) and has come back even stronger each time. Somehow i don't think Boxer will give up, ever, theres too much riding on him. But at the same time i don't think he'll get back to starleague contention because of the enormous setback he has taken.
Then comes this question - what is the best way for Boxer to spend his time? Coaching others and creating the best progaming team in existence like he did before, or similarly diverting his attention to other facets of esports. OR should he continue to play and likely not go anywhere. Personally to me the better spending of his time is in coaching or similar rather than playing. And thats why Boxer should (but won't) quit Starcraft.
I agree with you in that his time is probably better spent playing/coaching sc. This will allow him to lead a team to victory, and still play the game he loves. HOWEVER- I don't see him doing that either. His will to win and his love of the game is so strong, and you can see that in all of the revivals that you've spoken about. In boxer's case, when there is a will, there is a way, and that is why all of the fans keep seeing visions of finals/golden mice.
Seeing that he's been playing for such a long time, we can look at the things that makes boxer different from other players (especially all of the ones that have retired). He has the ability to lead, and that's certainly one thing that has kept him in progaming all of these years, and which has been expounded upon in the original post. What else makes him (and to some extent, july and Nada) able to stay around all these years?
I think that there's a case to be made that his mind, along with his deeper knowledge of the game will allow him to revolutionize the game once again. He has played during every single revolution, and the fact that he was there when it all started may start to help him, instead of hinder him. The skill gap does exist, and the game is intensely competitive at the pro level. Boxer's hands are not fast compared to other progamers anymore, his micro isn't as important, and he hasn't had as much time to practice. All of these are reasons why boxer should retire. His previous declines before have never been as sharp as his current low. And yet- he still thinks he can come back and win; for this reason alone, most of teamliquid will not give up on him, progamers still fear him, and he still wins and leads effectively.
Boxer's builds have not been known for their reason, Boxer at times like these has not been known for reason; This is why boxer's gameplay looks insane when he is at his best. And that is why we hope.
On August 09 2008 00:07 FzeroXx wrote: Savior, for example, couldn't cope with having to change his strategy at all. Once it was exposed he was ruined.
i dont think anyone would give a real fuck if jaedong or flash just quit today. they are not very inspirational players.
but if savior decided he wanted to quit today, i think every single person would go WTF ZOMFG?!
its the same with boxer. boxer definitely as the power and determination to become bonjwa again. He knows the game like the back of his hand and that will let him prevail over the stupid macro of flash.
On August 09 2008 01:10 Plexa wrote: As a small tangent point, Iloveoov lacked the motivation to keep fighting (one could argue that without boxer this was inevitable anyway) and Boxer went into bigger slumps than Oov did. This shows that Boxer has got significantly greater determination/motivation to keep going. The question becomes is that quantity enough?
oov had a wrist injury, it wasnt a question of motivation
I 100% agree wth you. However he won't quit until he's 30 years old. But then SC2 will be out and myabe it will be a bigger chance for boxer to come-back.
On August 09 2008 01:10 Plexa wrote: As a small tangent point, Iloveoov lacked the motivation to keep fighting (one could argue that without boxer this was inevitable anyway) and Boxer went into bigger slumps than Oov did. This shows that Boxer has got significantly greater determination/motivation to keep going. The question becomes is that quantity enough?
oov had a wrist injury, it wasnt a question of motivation
That was a contributing factor, but his motivation for broodwar diminished rapidly in 2006 it was a well known fact
FYI ChRh had a wrist injury and he continued to play after recovering (and taking some time off) - ultimately the two kicked oov in the balls too hard and he gave it in
Plexa I think you are the sexiest, but!!! Boxer is like the Michael Jordan of SC.
I enjoy watching Boxer lose too. He is entertaining, even when he loses! SC is all about bringing audience, etc. Boxer will always be able to do that, even if he's got that type of record. I love watching Boxer lose to the new kids! I Love it love it!!!
"It's like watching Kobe Bryant dunk it all over Michael Jordan in '98"
That's who Boxer is for me. I want him there forever, even if he is taking up the little one, I still love it =)
I dunno if that makes sense... what do you guys think?
Oh! and a good example would be this... If you would have talked good about Boxer instead of bad.. this would be in the Featured Threads instead... lol
The majority of people aren't getting the head fake or Plexa's real message.
If you read Plexa's opening post with the mentality that he is playing devil's advocate you will see why saying:
On August 09 2008 01:35 InfeSteD[rA] wrote: Oh! and a good example would be this... If you would have talked good about Boxer instead of bad.. this would be in the Featured Threads instead... lol
doesn't make sense.
If this article ' talked good about boxer ' then it wouldn't be featured either.
what ack said is correct, you're not going to get any decent discussion by saying the converse of the op. People would simply post "yea! boxer hwaiting" or similar - which doesn't generate discussion. By taking the controversial view point it forces rationalization of why boxer is going to come back rather than the simple assertion to agree with the op
also if i wanted this in featured, itd be in featured
garimto attempted the same comeback that boxer will in a couple of months. he tried, and failed with a grand total of 1 televised game. it didn't tarnish his legend and nobody thought any less of him.
the same applies to boxer imo. so he might try and fail miserably, and it won't have any effect on his legend. however, if he is successful, then it will only further prove that he truly is a genius. there is no downside for his comeback, only positives
what ack said is correct, you're not going to get any decent discussion by saying the converse of the op. People would simply post "yea! boxer hwaiting" or similar - which doesn't generate discussion. By taking the controversial view point it forces rationalization of why boxer is going to come back rather than the simple assertion to agree with the op
also if i wanted this in featured, itd be in featured
True that!
What 'bout my first post? Do you enjoy watching Boxer lose regardless?
I agree to some extent with the end premise of the first post: Boxer could probably better spend his time as a coach figure than as a progamer after leaving the army. However, this is still debatable, as it's arguable whether having boxer the coach or boxer the player is more influential on teammates. Even if he is in the worst shape of his life skill-wise (relative to his opponents, at least) it still brings the boxer mystique to the team. It makes his teammates want to outperform not only him now, but his legacy. I think that aspect will be stronger if he continues to play rather than hang up his mouse. Even if he loses 80% of his games, everybody knows what can happen when boxer plays, and that aspect on other players and fans can't be denied.
As for his individual performances: who knows how he will do. He's been basically counted out before:
1. "Lim Yo Hwan, it's over. These new players macro too well; you just can't keep up." He took oov (oov!) to game 5 in the OSL finals.
2. "Lim! You can't! These new protosses are the strongest kings ever and your TvP is weak!" He beat Pusan (and I think we all remember how crazy pusan was at this point...) and took Anytime to a deciding game in the OSL finals.
3. "Lim! You're too old! You have to go to the army soon! Your progaming days are over." He makes one of the most surprising and most impressive MSL runs we've ever seen (did you see those games v rA?).
Now we face a new bout of naysayers. And they have even more reason to voice their doubts, because, as you mentioned, the road will be harder now than ever before. But in all struggles, the key component comes down not to sheer ability or experience (both of which boxer has in droves), but to heart. To desire. And nobody (nobody) plays starcraft with more heart and more vigor than boxer.
I think the comparison to MJ by someone was at least a bit appropriate. It remains to be seen whether this comeback by boxer will be akin to the post baseball comeback of Jordan, or to the completely depressing comeback with the Wizards, but one thing is for sure: a Starcraft with Boxer playing is a more dynamic spectator sport than a Starcraft without him. To put it another (cruder) way: Boxer puts fans in the seats and on the streams. And what fan of Starcraft, and pro gaming in general, doesn't want that?
He has such a strong desire to continue to play Starcraft after his service and beyond, who're you to tell him what he should do? With his strong determination, along with having a LOT more time to practice after he's done with his service, I think he's got a great chance to rise up again.
I'm disappointed to see this from you Plexa. It's always sad to see people lose faith in heroes like this.
You couldn't have said it better maarek.. I mean taking Iloveoov to a 5th game when iloveoov was basically unbeatable. Beating Pusan in such a fashion way with the pimpest play greatest come back ever, specially the game in RoV.
And then with Ace, losing in Andromeda... but at least he nuked lol
And then the TvP in Othello with the lockdown... Boxer is god
On August 09 2008 01:50 SoMuchBetter wrote: garimto attempted the same comeback that boxer will in a couple of months. he tried, and failed with a grand total of 1 televised game. it didn't tarnish his legend and nobody thought any less of him.
the same applies to boxer imo. so he might try and fail miserably, and it won't have any effect on his legend. however, if he is successful, then it will only further prove that he truly is a genius. there is no downside for his comeback, only positives
really? i wasn't around when garimto was playing, but i heard all of garimto's comments, about how the tosses nowadays are uncreative, and about how he's super critical while commentating. garimto had a "magic" about him, a sort of legendary feeling that doesn't surround just any player, or even any starleague winner. even though we knew garimto's comeback was a long shot, many people, including me, strongly hoped he could do the impossible, and instead we were hit in the face once more that there are no starcraft gods, only human players each with their own flaws.
(if you read any of my articles for FE or otherwise, all of them are centered around this theme, that those who cheer for bonjwas are searching for a little bit of magic and supernatural-ness, the hope that an entertaining video game can transcend just two guys clicking and moving mice; even those who cheer for the underdogs have their best moments when bonjwas are ultimately defeated)
that's why people gravitate to and cheer for bonjwas. people want to see legends and fairy tales. bonjwas are humans like anyone else, but for a fleeting instance they give the audience the faint hope that maybe, just maybe there's a bit of magic inside an ordinary person.
every time reach and yellow and boxer and now savior loses, we are reminded of that cruel fact. nobody is superhuman, and there are no storybook endings. Bisu < Mind in the GomTV3 MSL, Jaedong losing in Bacchus quarters and Ever qualifiers (and to ForGG in Arena MSL), Flash flaming out in the recent Starleagues. Savior's entire existence after the date in my quote. We want to believe so badly that someone can recapture the magic, but reality crashes us back to earth every time.
I feel the same way about Boxer. The entertainment and specialness of his style is obvious; I'll never miss a Boxer game. If there was such thing as a lifetime achievement award in Starcraft, Boxer would get it. His passion and love for and creativity in Starcraft is unmatched. But the guy isn't "clutch," and hasn't been a true champion for seven years. The guy is something like 2-5 in finals, and 0-4 in the past few years. While Boxer produced many entertaining and close finals, a true champion would have won at least a few of those. Nada wouldn't have lost all of those; Savior wouldn't have lost all of those; Oov wouldn't have lost all of those, and certainly Michael Jordan wouldn't have.
For the people searching for 2000-2001 Boxer, that guy isn't coming back. Boxer has to do something he's never done in the modern SC era, and that's win a Starleague. I don't care how much you wax on about his achievements almost a decade ago, but losing to Garimto, Reach, Oov, and Anytime really tarnishes his career.
But here, we're not even talking about a finals loss. We're talking about his ability to even make the OSC or Survivor league. He's got a long way to go.
I was resigned that there are no fairytales in progaming, that the seasons are short and so cutthroat and close competitively that there's no room for consistent dominance anymore. (I maintain that a single SL season, roughly 1/4 a year, is equivalent to a full year of "true" sports).
But then Ever 08 and July happened. The difference between July/Nada and Boxer is very simple. They've actually been able to win a starleague after a "slump" whereas Boxer hasn't. Listen, I love watching Boxer games, and I know this is probably blasphemy to a lot of people, but until he proves he can win in the biggest moments (remember, 0-4 in modern finals), I'll never see him on the same sort of level as the other true Bonjwas.
The guy has two wins 7 years ago and a lot of second places. That's a hall of fame career. I know Boxer sparks a ton of deserved love from the community, but where does this irrational belief come from that he can be a champion if he tries hard enough? He hasn't done it before, and his track record, if anything, shows that its more likely he loses than succeeds EVEN IF he makes it to a final.
Boxer gave his youth to e-Sports and SC so that they could grow into what they are now. He paid out of his own pocket to help support the Proleague when it was first introduced. So, If he wants to keep playing, let him keep playing. He's already said several times that as long as there are tournaments, he'll be there. That's a kind of character and spirit that no other progamer has ever shown.
On August 09 2008 03:47 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: it is my opinion that is a complete retard like BackHo can get to OSL simply by practicing, then someone as mentally gifted as Boxer can come back
Boxer is often cited for mental strength, and I see that in his passion and dedication and creativity. However, is he truly mentally strong like July? I don't think so. No way July goes 0-4 in finals. True mental strength is performing your best when it matters most, and Boxer has consistently shown to produce losing results on the largest stage. Yes, I said it, but it's true, and nobody talks about the possibility of a Boxer chokeness in finals because everyone gives him a free pass and are blinded by the uniqueness of his style and his ambassador / legend status for the game in general. But the guy is the anti-clutch. Makes finals and loses. He has, gasp, some choker Midas in him, no matter how many comeback games and cool moves he pulls of. 0-4 proves it; his only wins come against someone who is an even bigger choker (Yellow).
Therefore, he's not as mentally strong as people think he is.
Just an addendum, I disagree that Boxer should quit. If anyone deserves to play as long as he wants, Boxer is that guy. But will it tarnish how most people see him? You bet. But him losing all those finals already tarnished his "legacy" as a champion in my eyes (though his stature as a pioneer and genius live on).
I feel this is a horribly timed blog. His military service is almost over and his real sink or swim moment is coming up. Even a few months down the line if he's not showing results would be far more appropriate, but saying he should quit right now is denying him his chance at revival. It's quite obvious that his drastic decline in play is due to the team he's on and not him, and it's not a very fair assumption to boxer of all people that you'd just assume he could never come back simply because the skill gap is big. If anything I'd say that'd be even more of a drive for him.
This blog entry pretty much cancels out all the good writing you have made in the past. Boxer should quit? Why would you spout such blasphemy? Were you not happy with how many blog views you got?
Boxer will return to glory. Boxer will dominate again. And every game he wins he will do it by some amazing feat of genious.
On August 09 2008 04:27 stenole wrote: This blog entry pretty much cancels out all the good writing you have made in the past. Boxer should quit? Why would you spout such blasphemy? Were you not happy with how many blog views you got? ...
Uh, people complaining about Plexa simply articulating his opinions, please shut up. We need more threads like this on our forums. Not simply controversial or "troll" topics but ones that are well thought out and generate meaningful discussion like this one. Just because you disagree with him doesn't mean he's stupid for making such a topic, and it certainly doesn't "cancel out" contributions he wrote earlier, or show that he just wants blog views. The forums are here for us to discuss interesting topics, not spout the same "OMG BOXER GO" one liners that fill most topics about him.
On August 08 2008 23:03 alffla wrote: WTF NO WAI EVEN THOUGH I HATE BOXER SO MUCH BECAUSE IM A HARDCORE YELLOW FAN BUT HOW CAN U SAY SUCH THINGS T_____T PLEAXAAA!!!
If Favre isn't retired, there's no reason why BoxeR should.
I can not accept your argument. You act as if the current stars of the BW scene were not fresh players at the very bottom of the skill ladder just years ago, and were at Boxer's current level even less time ago.
Boxer can revive his skill and reach the top if he has the passion to do so. I believe this.
Nevertheless, entertaining article even if I disagree with your final assessment.
Even if boxer loses 100% of the games he play from now on, he will be forever The Emperor to me. I will still remember and speak of his legacy years from now.
Mrs. Klazart syndrome: talking down your favorite player's chances in order to trick the universe into thinking that you're actually not rooting for him, so that whatever power out there lets him actually win.
Too all those cursing out Plexa, I think your anger is misplaced. Try to find reasoning to counter his thoughts, maybe you can change his mind.
That being said.
I can't quite fully agree with this article, because, well, he still wants to play. He puts on good matches and shows, and he still gets a massive amount of respect within the pro-gaming community so I'm not quite sure where this post comes from. Only reason that is really feasible as to why he should retire is he isn't the champion he once was -So what? Half the people playing now aren't and never will be champions yet they still play because they're good and have the dedication to play. Boxer wants to play, can put pro-gamer APM at age 30 and still be innovate (lol ghosts) then by all means, let him tarnish his record. If people begin to hate boxer for not winning like he used to, then they never liked him anyway, just jumping on the band wagon.
Watching games played by Boxer actually brings excitement. He influenced professional starcraft and even in the midst of poor progaming his love for the game is what drives him. I don't think anyone has the right to say for him to retire.
Boxer is like Voldemort. You can think he's dead, but he's out there, waiting... Waiting for his most faithful servant (IntoTheRainbOw) to return to him and they will make a comeback together!
You also have to take in account that Boxer has an insane desire to win, greater than any other progamer. He's creative and likes to put on a show, but in the end, he's the guy who put that all aside and bunker rushed 3 times in a row to get the win. In terms of effort, this won't be some half assed comeback =o
Its funny from 01-03 I hated boxer ... all he ever did was murder the zergs I was rooting for.
From 03 on (when I gave up on h.o.t,yellow,chojja) I have loved his play even though for some reason he always felt like the underdog in every finals (except the ones I wanted him to lose) throught his career. Which I never realized until now. I remember vs Anytime I was so nervous for him and the stream was SO BAD.
I think Boxer is more than just a player for the sc community. He is starcraft!
He has the determination to be the first pro-gamer over 30, and I dont think we will be seeing the last of him. Even though he may never get a golden mouse, or even into another OSL final, his presence is so important that I dont think he should quit at all.
In Pringles MSL, however, Boxer looked to be able to win the whole tournament after a ridiculously strong victory over Ra on Blitz in which Boxer showed that his macro was very much up to standard, and in fact was bloody scary.
Link to this game anybody?
And Boxer should keep playing if he wants to, obviously. He still produces entertaining games, which is a lot more than you can say of other players.
Plexa, boxer doesn't play the game for his own gains, he's playing the game for his fans. if boxer keeps on fighting, we forever will support him. It doesn't matter if he can or can not win another osl. I was screaming while watching boxer's on that last proleague match. He still got what it takes to please the spectators.
So please do not call for boxer to retire in order to prevent him from failing over and over. Instead we should cheer for him everything he steps into the booth. We have to cheer for his courage every time he picks himself up from slumps. More than everything his spirit of never give in nor give up.
On August 09 2008 04:27 funkie wrote: Plexa, I don't know you very much..
But I just have 2 words for you.
Fuck You.
On August 09 2008 04:32 True_Spike wrote: You're dead to me.
On August 09 2008 04:16 Tropics wrote: Note - I haven't read most of the responses
I feel this is a horribly timed blog. His military service is almost over and his real sink or swim moment is coming up. Even a few months down the line if he's not showing results would be far more appropriate, but saying he should quit right now is denying him his chance at revival. It's quite obvious that his drastic decline in play is due to the team he's on and not him, and it's not a very fair assumption to boxer of all people that you'd just assume he could never come back simply because the skill gap is big. If anything I'd say that'd be even more of a drive for him.
K I'm sorry but this blatant disrespect for Plexa is fucking stupid. First of all, trust your instincts more? If you people are disappointed in Plexa's article here question yourselves. Plexa is a huge Boxer fan. Anyway since people don't bother to read threads in chronological order anymore, or use their brain for 2 seconds especially when reading a piece by Plexa [ final edits? old blogs? anyone? ]
Sometimes a writer puts down ideas that are opposite to his, just to encourage discussion. In this instance, Plexa [ A HUGE BOXER FAN ] wrote this to create hype for BOXER coming back So everyone who thinks this is anti-boxer hype, please think about it for 10 seconds. If you still don't get it:
what ack said is correct, you're not going to get any decent discussion by saying the converse of the op. People would simply post "yea! boxer hwaiting" or similar - which doesn't generate discussion. By taking the controversial view point it forces rationalization of why boxer is going to come back rather than the simple assertion to agree with the op
also if i wanted this in featured, itd be in featured
The article makes you [ the reader ] consider the other spectrum of Boxer's return.
God reading stupid comments like
On August 09 2008 04:27 funkie wrote: Plexa, I don't know you very much..
Boxer has reinvented himself so many times, catching on to new plays and developing beautiful build orders on new maps. As long as Boxer believes in himself and has the insane drive and motivation we all know and love him for, he'll be back in no time once he rejoins skt1.
"The night is darkest just before the dawn. And I promise you, the dawn is coming."
I think BoxeR has the ability to set a precedent. There are plenty of pros who have had a record for their career as bad as BoxeR has since he joined ACE. No one thinks BoxeR is going to be #1 KeSPA ever again, but I think if his choice is to keep being a progamer, it can set a precedent for other old pros who have the same desire.
Obviously, SC progaming is only about 9 years old, and though it's not particularly likely, I see no reason why players who still post reasonable results couldn't keep playing until they're 30, 40, 50, 60 ,70, 80, or even 90 years old.
But if he chooses to quit, or become a coach, obviously his legend will keep living.
My favorite player, Nal_rA, has been posting worse results then BoxeR has for a while now, I think he's lost his last two games to BoxeR while being 11-5 against him overall. But his three proleague wins this season were still entertaining, and I clinged to them dearly, even if his opponents were of nearly the lowest caliber in those games. But, Oversky beat Jaedong so I suppose rA is better than Jaedong at least.
Poor Funkie... I am pretty sure he didn't really mean it. Like we all know... Boxer is god.. anytime his name is brought up a lot of emotions come with it. It's the Boxer curse... people will react crazy.
I think we can give everybody a break in this thread because it is a boxer thread... anything can come out of it.
If someone in the streets told me that Boxer sux, I'd prolly go crazy on them and kill 'em or something..
On August 09 2008 05:09 Waxangel wrote: You also have to take in account that Boxer has an insane desire to win, greater than any other progamer. He's creative and likes to put on a show, but in the end, he's the guy who put that all aside and bunker rushed 3 times in a row to get the win. In terms of effort, this won't be some half assed comeback =o
you said what has been in the back of my mind for a while... boxer seems to me a unique progamer, with a strong love for the game and a stronger desire to continue to play it for as long as possible. I think willpower makes all the difference when it comes to progaming, especially older pros trying to make a comeback. He will give it his all and we will see the fruits of his efforts.
If any old school player is going to make a comeback, it's going to be Boxer.
Yet I say this and am still concerned as the competition is just so high among all the newcomers But that doesn't mean he should quit progmaming, it just means he might fail at his comeback. I'm confident he'd regret it for the rest of his life if he quit before even trying to fulfilling his aspirations and goals that he still has for SC.
Yeah it's not hard to notice that boxer's more modern macro playing style doesn't work out very often and most games he wins are short but one thing boxer has is fan fare to say fans will follow him is nearly worth him on a pro team.
Boxer isn't in the same state as garimto was in. And he's not totally unfamiliar with all the new faces on the scene as he's still been active in proleague, and team captain at that, no? And why should he quit even if he does have a fairly slim chance, or a very slim chance?
Though well-written, the topic post is quite silly. No matter whether Boxer will dominate, we still want to see some Boxer magic. Any enjoyable player should keep playing as long as they see fit. Boxer is far from a lost cause. If I'm not mistaken, he's only now returning from the air force and getting into full gear, so you couldn't expect any decent results in a few moths to come. I for one hope to see more of Boxer and don't think there is any skill gap. Boxer is surely one of the most skilled players out there, he just lacks sharpness and focus on the game until he really gets going.
Sure, it would be nice to have Boxer as a coach. But I'm unimpressed by many of these new macro-based players with a boring play-style. If there is any chacne to see Boxer play well, I want him to play. And from what I've noticed he has pulled a few interesting things over the last six months. Just like it would be golden to have Saviour back, just for a few of his delightful micro moments.
Calling Boxer's creative tactics "cheesing" is a bit of a simplification. The tactics in themselves might seem cheesy, but it's exactly how their done and the context that determines whether it's art of cheese. If Boxer does it and gets everything right, surprised his opponent and therefore makes a break-through for a certain cheese-like tactic, it's definately art. Often what makes him lose his opponents is that here is one step ahead and uses the right combination of cheese-like tactics to fit the exact situation. Here, micro is definately the tool that allows him to set himself apart from the crowd.
Lies. Boxer will return, and it will be glorious. Motivation for him to get that mouse after both NaDa and July have gotten it before him will be immense once he can properly practice outside the military.
I believe that Boxer will still be able to adapt to the new style and I want to believe he'll make it, but you're probably right, it will be too hard to win anything now, but that doesn't mean he has to stop as a progamer. Maybe we can bring him back to owning by supporting him where possible! Go Boxer! Get back to ownage level!
I agree to an extent, because you're totally right, however he has a love for the game and it's very inspiring to see Boxer (As well as other old school progamers) still scrapping while they're in their progaming career-ending military service. I suppose not everyone sees this type of sub-par performance as 'inspiring', but that's just my opinion. Another fantastic write-up!
I disagree. I think by being on a pro team, he essentially is coaching the other players. his moral and general helpfulness he gives his team was shown on ACE, and cmon who in the proscene wouldn't look up to boxer? I know he wont make finals, but there are hundreds of gamers (like the vast majority of the 128 GOM classic tournament players) that are in his same position, and they are still driven to compete. by still playing and pulling off the occasional win with lockdown vs recall, or fast nukes vs zerg, boxer can be more motivating to his team than any other way.
If Boxer isn't worthy of being a progamer, then over half the progamers should just quit too. What kinda bullshit is this? Maybe if Boxer hadn't won a game in years, maybe if he was as bad as Eliza, maybe then, you could maybe possibly think of saying something along those lines. But as of right now who and who should quit is none of your business. No matter how many editorials you write, it would never justify such a stupid article. This is some faggoty attention seek. You knew it would gain attention only because of the center of the topic, Boxer, and no other reason. If Boxer should quit, why not write an article for Pusan, Ra, Yellow, so on.
I don't want to, but I really do agree. Boxer helped make Starcraft what it is today, and he has done so much throughout the years to help shape it. I think one of the main reasons he stands out to me is when I first got into watching progaming (around 2000/2001) he was the big name at the time, and was pulling all the victories, plus at the time I was a big fan of WCG for SC and UT, and he won both of the first ones. I think after making his image that big to me, I just saw him as the father of the game, and now his name is pretty much synonymous with the game, even friends who don't know how big Korean gaming is know the name Boxer. Sadly, I do think his time is over, but there is so much more he could do besides be an actual progamer and still be involved with the game.
On August 08 2008 22:55 chameleonia wrote: maybe... but then again who saw the july golden mouse coming?
Well i did but ive been preaching july for golden mouse for over year lol, but this is a good point and if nothing his win proved veterans can still get titles in this age, totally disagree and saying such things bout boxer is blasphemy
I think saying he should quit just because he's not currently the best is stupid. He enjoys playing and loves the time he has spent playing so he's going to continue. Sure he's not the best anymore, but it's hard to say he can't make a comeback. He's done it before, and ok it's harder this time, but it is boxer we're talking about. Maybe he will, maybe he won't, but I'm not going to be the one to doubt him. Best of luck to him, I have faith that he can come back, but it won't be a shock if he isn't able to.
But even if he doesn't return to top level, he still has a huge fan following and will be playing. As someone already said, most of the people in proleague will never win a championship but they still play because they are talented and they obviously enjoy it to dedicate so much time. It's kind of like michael jordan coming back with the wizards, he wasn't the best anymore but he loved the game so he wasn't going to stop playing. He still had some talent in him and was able to play at a high level.
He has said he wants to go into his 30s so that's what I think we'll see happen.
Hot_Bid: I dunno how coming in second place in 4 separate finals necessitates a "choking" conclusion since, last I looked, a finals match isn't entirely dependent on the skill, determination, etc. of just one player. One person raising their game doesn't exclude the other person raising their game more. Having "the heart of a champion" doesn't exclude your opponent from having it. And wanting a win really badly doesn't mean you're going to get that win. I dunno, fighting your way into an OSL final and taking the eventual champ to the final game in your weakest matchup (or your dominating bonjwa star pupil) doesn't really sound like choking to me.
In any case...
While I don't necessarily think Boxer is going to come back and win every tournament forever and get the Kryptonite Mouse or whatever (though I wouldn't complain if he won some precious-metal mice), I do think it's very plausible for him to join SKT T1 and come back as a relevant SC player (and not just a name to fill stadium seating). I mean, it's not just that ACE has less practice time and military commitments- they don't have a stable of quality practice partners to work with, their coach is just some military guy, they don't have any depth so their players don't get many off-weeks... it really isn't much to work with. Contrast that to SKT T1, which has had quite the turnaround this season. They have the resources for someone with Boxer's will and talent to at least have a fighting chance. More than practice time, Boxer gets more people to practice with to work off the rust, and he has oov and crew to actually coach him through modern SC play; to show him the nuances of the game today, break out the stopwatch for his build timings, help him analyze his upcoming opponents, etc. Maybe all it'll take is a stint with the SKT B-team for Boxer to get back into decent form (or maybe a stint with the CJ B-team lol).
If success, satisfaction, and entertainment value were only measured in gold medals, then yeah, Boxer should quit. But they aren't. Maybe he's good enough to storm into Starleague medal contention again, maybe he'll just be the most entertaining Proleague sniper ever, but I think it's very plausible for Boxer to be a successful pro-gamer after his military service.
So let the Flashes and Jaedongs have their macro/mechanics "rivalries," let the horde of 1-hit wonders have their medal and their declining set of fangirls, let the Proleague beasts get BackHo'd in individual leagues, let them all get nuked into retirement or fade away before the new "big name" players. Boxer was there to turn SC from a glorified hobby into an e-sport, and it's only fitting that Boxer would be around to see pro-BW through to the end.
I would seriously cry if Boxer retired lol. This is heresy . Posters above me have made all the good counter-points. Imo, arguing for Boxer's retirement is a little premature. We should postpone this question until he gets back into a pro-team and played for a season with full training.
I enjoyed the write up Plexa but I have to disagree. Boxer has proven time and time again that he's not a YellOw or Reach who fail to keep up with the changing times. If anything his TvP vs Free proves that he can compete when given the chance. Also he is insanely good for the scene, the moment he retires or becomes a coach there will be a larger fanbase that will lose interest in it.
Boxer will know when it's time to call quits until then let the man dream and maybe we may see a strong run by him and he can secure an OSL or an MSL. At the very least he will always be a strong member for any proteam that can pick him up. With his skills/knowledge/and mentorish attitude he will be a great "hyung" or father figure for any terran on the team he's with. Of course he's most likely to go to SKT1 again but imagine him going to Lecaf or KTF. In KTF he could broaden Flash's style of play (incorporate more interesting options and make Flash a less predictable player) or he could go to Lecaf and imagine his TvZ knowledge and skills going to work on fOrGG's. While fOrGG shows refined play recently Boxer will be able to refine that play further.
Though I think Boxer will go to SKT1 he will be a valuable commodity on any team even if he's not the most solid player result wise in leagues or proleague.
note: If Boxer somehow goes to MBC (not going to happen but I can dream) I would literally be the happiest person in the world besides Steve. Sea/RuBy/Boxer would be a dream. Boxer there to mentor Sea and RuBy along with their incredible mechanics and game sense/style I can see them becoming league winners consistently (Boxer would probably be best for getting over any jitters concerning live games though).
That was a pretty bad post and was filled with blind fanboyism and was very irrational but a man can dream =D.
Again I enjoyed reading you're view Plexa but I have to respectfully disagree.
Sadly, I've begun to think this about BoxeR. I really wanted him to finish with a bang. Perhaps winning So1, and then retiring. But he sort of dragged it on a bit and still excelled but wasn't at the top.
if boxer could stay at an average progamer level, it's INCREDIBLY impressive considering todays fierce competition. I think all that "quit while u're on top" talk is just bull, you should hang in there as long as you can if u're a true master of starcraft.
Every single team will want to have Boxer. Not because he's the iconic symbol of starcraft but because of his strategic mind. Keep in mind, not many team really puts much focus, if any at all, on individual leagues. If one of your player wins individual league, good for them. But they don't even practice the maps for individual leagues anymore. All their focus is on proleague.
Now Knowing this fact, Boxers worth SKYROCKETS soooo fucking high it pokes God in the fcking ass. Boxer fits into ANY and ALL team that wants to contend for a championship. You said he's value only worth as much as his cheese? Guess what? This value is what any team will Kill to have. He is THE set 4 man to have. The sniper. The cheeser. The finisher.
Just look at SKT1 when they had Boxer. True, Boxer never had 18324-2 stats on proleague. But that's not where value lies on. As long as proleageu exists. He is one of the worthiest player to have.
p.s I boycott on Plexa's FE from now on! lol jk ;P love your FE's (cept this one)
edit: Set 4 player can be the finisher, but also the one who brings the fight to Ace match bringing back the "force" to their team and when you think about how Boxer wins his game (Extremely gay for the other team)... the "force" is great...
I can agree to some point, boxers tvp isnt that good nowadays and his tvz has seen better days compared to the other pro's. Only his TvT is top-notch as far as i can see, he can actually rape even the highest ranked terrans in a straight up game even up to this date, which amazes me.
look at him rape flash on python or mind at baekmagoji!
On August 09 2008 08:00 nttea wrote: if boxer could stay at an average progamer level, it's INCREDIBLY impressive considering todays fierce competition. I think all that "quit while u're on top" talk is just bull, you should hang in there as long as you can if u're a true master of starcraft.
I think quitting while your ahead is a popular Asian business philosophy... I know that at least televisions shows in Japan do this. The idea is that you're trading short term business exploitation for long term franchise safety... So, if a show in Japan is very popular, and they stop it during the height of their popularity, they maintain a high image of premium quality. This allows them to sell the image, thru comic book versions, movie versions, t shirts, posters, etc. If you have a season after the height of your popularity, you risk destroying your image of premium quality with a bad season (even though it will ride a little while off the popularity of the previous season).
The same would go for Boxer. He can sell merchandise better as a legend, and fill in special TV shows 'play Boxer' or something much better than if he risks losing his image. But this is only if you don't think Boxer will come back as a premium player, and if you think his reputation is tarnishable (which as of late, he's looked pretty strong regardless of what Plexa thinks).
In essence... I don't think Boxer is hanging in there as long as he can. I think he'll make a strong presence in the scene, and when he finally feels like he can't keep it up anymore (circa the year 3000), that's when we'll see him retire and become a coach or something.
On August 09 2008 08:05 FConnectionUK wrote: Every single team will want to have Boxer. Not because he's the iconic symbol of starcraft but because of his strategic mind. Keep in mind, not many team really puts much focus, if any at all, on individual leagues...
Brood War need names to survive. Boxer is a name. A champion. In fact hes the only remaining champion from his prime along with GoRush and Reach. Ive watched tons of epic games with these guys hence I feel they belong in the big tournaments by default. You want to see these names because you can identify joyful moments with them.
There are some champions I wouldnt miss. Mind and forGG are those. Probably because they dont have the personal charisma nor anything special in their gameplay. Eventhough GGPlay can be considered the same way, you'll always know when someone says "Hey remember that epic comeback GGPlay did in the Daum final?". If someone asks about Mind or forGG you'll say that's the guys who fucked up the namebuilding. Of course Bisu and Jaedong are big names now. ButBisu would have been a huge name if he won his 3rd MSL back then, and Jaedong wouldve been on a good way to being a legend if he had taken his 2nd MSL title recently.
I dont want champions like Boxer to quit to make more room for more forGGs and Minds.
What I miss the most of todays champions is charisma though. July, Oov, Savior, Nada, Reach, rA, Anytime and Boxer had/has that special aura to them, and even the most recent champions like Jaedong, Bisu, and Flash lacks that despite characteristic gameplay. This worries me somewhat, but it might have a smaller impact than I fear it could have.
On August 09 2008 09:48 Guybrush wrote: Brood War need names to survive. Boxer is a name. A champion. In fact hes the only remaining champion from his prime along with GoRush and Reach. Ive watched tons of epic games with these guys hence I feel they belong in the big tournaments by default. You want to see these names because you can identify joyful moments with them.
There are some champions I wouldnt miss. Mind and forGG are those. Probably because they dont have the personal charisma nor anything special in their gameplay. Eventhough GGPlay can be considered the same way, you'll always know when someone says "Hey remember that epic comeback GGPlay did in the Daum final?". If someone asks about Mind or forGG you'll say that's the guys who fucked up the namebuilding. Of course Bisu and Jaedong are big names now. ButBisu would have been a huge name if he won his 3rd MSL back then, and Jaedong wouldve been on a good way to being a legend if he had taken his 2nd MSL title recently.
I dont want champions like Boxer to quit to make more room for more forGGs and Minds.
What I miss the most of todays champions is charisma though. July, Oov, Savior, Nada, Reach, rA, Anytime and Boxer had/has that special aura to them, and even the most recent champions like Jaedong, Bisu, and Flash lacks that despite characteristic gameplay. This worries me somewhat, but it might have a smaller impact than I fear it could have.
umm I think flash lacks play fits into your last line
Bisu doesn't fit into it at all, I hate the faggot, but god damn is his play interesting/bold ... his play shows more of an artistic approach to the game then I've ever seen a toss (other then straight proxy builds which I don't find creative) have.
Jaedong plays the most varied zerg style ever?.... Nobody has as many different approaches and tricks in the middlegame as him. ZvT he has been lacking flair for awhile, but I think its the competition changing, and him struggling with modern terran play.
i'm not a starcraft pro, and i've only started following recently.
but i will say that even though today's games are very exciting, nothing makes me go "wow" like watching boxer's old videos used to. case in point: recently, there was a youtube vid highlighting hwasin's marine "micro" against 6 or 7 lurkers sunken. I watched it... it couldnt hold a candle to Boxer's repeated, consistent domination of the zerg with MnM.
In fact, the only recent micro "showcase" that has impressed me to the level of Boxer is Light's tank/dropship micro, in which he dodged 3 or 4 attacks from a photon cannon through dropping and picking up. besides that, nothing sticks to my mind.
Um Boxer is still a good player. Give him a chance man, he's busy in KAF, when he comes home he will have all the time in the world to practice again. Still his TvT is one of the best and he does win other matchups as well, and as long as you win I don't see any reason to quit... makes no sense.
Btw you don't need to qualify/play good in individual leagues either, just look at Sea who is owning up proleague but lacking otherwise. I think Boxer is a really good player to have in proleague, I don't see how any team wouldn't want him.
i loved that video charlie, thanks for posting it :D
boxer is such a unique player... even though he isn't considered top notch anymore he's still a lot more entertaining than a lot of the standard macro players these days. maybe if starcraft was just a bit bigger in korea they could start a mini-league based on strategic ingenuity and innovation rather than just pure skill (like figure skating instead of hockey...? erm, bad comparison...)
otherwise, being a coach that can still play some showmatches would be great. like, let's say in a team vs team match, the ace card ends up being the coach! lol?!
I agree with you Plexa, I have been saying this for a while now actually. He should retire and not get embarrassed by random no namers, which he will be, if he attempts to make a come back.
Everyone says that its so hard to compete these days because of the extremely high level thats being played so Boxer won't be able to cut it. But its hard for everyone. I don't see why Boxer has less of a chance of rising to the challenge compared to any of the other progamers or amatures trying to go pro have. If anything I would say he should have an easier time due to his experience.
I disagree, because of thim limits ACE has placed on BoxeR. Yes, it's better than nothing, but his playing time is severely limited. When he leaves the air force and returns to a full time schedule, he will definitely have a much better chance at reinventing himself once again.
Also, I believe the BoxeR effect is gone, and a new "effect" has come into play in his advantage. I call it "The July Effect" because he demonstrated it so well. It's simple. Younger players are underestimating old players who were on a decline. They don't prepare enough and they get bit by it in the end. BoxeR is like the Brett Favre of StarCraft. Just when we think it's time to write him off, he shocks us yet again.
Boxer has repeatedly stated that he wants to continue being a progamer to his thirties... I don't think there's even the slightest shadow of a doubt that his will to play is very strong.
He may not be the feared and awe-inspiring player in Starcraft that he once was (although we still catch glimpses of his brilliance to this day), but if this guy wants to keep playing Starcraft, then damn it if I'm not gonna support his decision every step of the way.
On a related note, Boxer is the iconic player in what I like to refer to as the "oldies triumvirate" consisting of Boxer, Nada, and July. Starcraft will never cease to be enjoyable for me so long as the pride of the veterans continue to make their presence felt in the progaming scene.
Dont agree at all, telling someone to quit before they even try to comeback is stupid.
Give him a chance, you are definitely selling the man short. Just because he didnt win those OSLs they werent failures. Hell make a nice comeback IMO. Maybe he wont be the best player, but hell be up there again, hes streaky as hell and when he gets on a roll watch the fuck out.
I disagree with the cheese remark. Now, Flash, from the beginning, his crazy cheeses were something to notice for me, of course a few big wins against some bonjwas and former bonjwas, his play was more closely watched. His gaming was reckless and wild. Living up to his name Flash, just winning instantly. July's recent drone drill, how awesome was that? Its just straight balls.
What I love about boxer is that he DOES have these extremes in his playing. And that his name is everything, his reputation. He definitely isn't out of the competition yet, Hes doing what he loves. And hes doing it awesome.
To me, he is the Sakuraba of Starcraft. He comes in with a new trick every time it seems. And he goes for a specific hardcore style that just carries itself through the game. And its entertaining to watch, even though it isn't straight up perfect micro, or he isn't just creating armies out of nothing impressively. His games are emotional, they really mean more than just a win. Now, this doesn't take away anything from the current top players. They have great fire in their play too.
Now those who don't know who Kazushi Sakuraba, hes a japanese MMA fighter passed his prime who was a superstar who ranked among the highest a few years back and in the late 90's. But otherwise, watching his fights were something else. He wasn't the best, but his play was unique and just unorthodox.
I hope he still plays in pro matches till hes 30.
In fact competition nowandays is so tight. ANYONE can take the title of champ it seems. Like Jaedong and Flash and fOrGG are all top of their game, Best is kicking trash, JulyZerg makes a comeback, Midas is coming back, Xellos makes a brief spot in the stage, Nada is doing great. These extra diamond and platinum mice may be possible to be snagged. With how tight the competition is nowandays.
Boxer was one of the strongest players but that wasn't why he got so big. There have been many great players who slowly faded away, but Boxer was one who stayed. Why? It was because it was always how he played, not how well he played (if that makes any sense). No matter what, whether he wins or loses, the games he plays are almost always exciting.
It is just the charisma that he represents through his play, and his "ballsiness" that make his games exciting. Not to mention everything else he did and pioneered. I certainly agree with him being the most influential player but it was just that spark that he always had, time and time again, that made him such a great player (not necessarily in skill).
One good example of it is when Boxer starts out playing standard, but he just randomly decides to do stuff that is insanely unorthodox or just off standard, such as Boxer vs Odin in ProLeague.
I respect Boxer's determination however I agree that he really shouldn't be playing these days and like you said if he were a coach or player/coach that would be awesome. I just miss watching him play back in 2002 and thinking... Wow what if I could be like him someday. He inspired me to play terran for 4 years. I think he is a great role model but it's time for him to hang up his professional gaming towel.
What? Reading your summary of Boxer's career made me realize for the first time just how many times he's slumped and then come roaring back. It's almost as much as Nada. So... now he's slumping again. How can you say he won't come back again, when he has as much practice time as the new kids?
i kinda agree, but as someone said its stupid to quit before tryn your best, and i see boxer is decided, constance and focus can defeat skills and reaction time. if boxer is gonna be on top is something i dont know, but he definitely have to try.
So what if he slumps? So what if he plays poorly? Is there a rule that says you have to win to play?
If so, most of us would have quit long ago.
Losing is a part of life. But instead of giving up when we lose, the defeat only fuels our passion to succeed, to come back and defeat our enemy. Boxer exemplifies the core of Starcraft, the truth of what makes this game so awesome; we lose, we go back and learn, improve, and come back for victory. As long as Starcraft is around, Boxer will always have a place.
i agree that when boxer comes back he probbaly wont be the best player out their like he was, but i think he can do better than he is doing atm. I still like watching all the crazy shit he comes up with and he will make a great coach someday.
I totally disagree with this. Have you ever thought of the practice partners he has in ACE? How many of them can actually be called good? Boxer is probably the only big name and also the only OSL winner inside. How much can you imagine that he'd learn from the young stars when he gets back to SKT1? I can assure you that he will improve by miles. In conclusion, it's totally unfair for us to ask him to quit unless it's proven that he is still slumping when he has good practice partners to play with. No matter how many losses he's gonna get against the scrubs . He will always remembered as Boxer. 99% of us will remember how much he has contributed to SC. Never try, never know Once he tries, everyone bows.
On August 09 2008 10:42 prOxi.swAMi wrote: He wouldn't remain playing if he didn't enjoy it. No reason to encourage him to quit if he enjoys the game still.
personally i would wait until after he gets back from his army time. if sc2 isn't out by then, i would expect him to try and make a decent return to form. if he is still not up to par, then it's probably time to hang up his hat.
boxer is boxer and always will be boxer and it doesn't matter if he wins or loses he will always be boxer and plus sc2 is coming
he could become a commentator but honestly he doesn't have the vocal strength for it in my opinion and plus he's boxer, why would such a god stoop to the level of commentating and getting paid so little
a clueless tard like incontrol spewing non sense in every thread like its the god forbidden truth because hey, he's in media clan man and he's nonys friend, he must know what the fuck is up
otherwise good writers so blind that they not only write a sentence about how boxer should retire, but a whole fucking article
Fortunately, at least in this case, the majority of people agree with you. I think even Plexa doesn't think he should retire, he just wants to stir s*** up. And it's been kind of interesting.
On August 09 2008 09:48 Guybrush wrote: Brood War need names to survive. Boxer is a name. A champion. In fact hes the only remaining champion from his prime along with GoRush and Reach. Ive watched tons of epic games with these guys hence I feel they belong in the big tournaments by default. You want to see these names because you can identify joyful moments with them.
There are some champions I wouldnt miss. Mind and forGG are those. Probably because they dont have the personal charisma nor anything special in their gameplay. Eventhough GGPlay can be considered the same way, you'll always know when someone says "Hey remember that epic comeback GGPlay did in the Daum final?". If someone asks about Mind or forGG you'll say that's the guys who fucked up the namebuilding. Of course Bisu and Jaedong are big names now. ButBisu would have been a huge name if he won his 3rd MSL back then, and Jaedong wouldve been on a good way to being a legend if he had taken his 2nd MSL title recently.
I dont want champions like Boxer to quit to make more room for more forGGs and Minds.
What I miss the most of todays champions is charisma though. July, Oov, Savior, Nada, Reach, rA, Anytime and Boxer had/has that special aura to them, and even the most recent champions like Jaedong, Bisu, and Flash lacks that despite characteristic gameplay. This worries me somewhat, but it might have a smaller impact than I fear it could have.
umm I think flash lacks play fits into your last line
Bisu doesn't fit into it at all, I hate the faggot, but god damn is his play interesting/bold ... his play shows more of an artistic approach to the game then I've ever seen a toss (other then straight proxy builds which I don't find creative) have.
Jaedong plays the most varied zerg style ever?.... Nobody has as many different approaches and tricks in the middlegame as him. ZvT he has been lacking flair for awhile, but I think its the competition changing, and him struggling with modern terran play.
I was talking about their appearance, like how they look and behave, not their gameplay. Chalrenge is a player with a distinct personal character but hes not a champion.
Well written but who are we to say when Boxer should retire?
Boxer has Starcraft and nothing else, except coaching (I doubt he wants to be a commentator). But do you think SKT1 would work with Boxer and Oov as coaches together? Personally I don't like two really strong coaches (and legends) in a team, unless they have clearly different roles.
And as long as he has the physical strength and partners to practice like he wants (read: all the time), no other gamers will feel safe vs him. He will keep on consuming new maps like candy, finding new strategies and weird concepts/tricks that other gamers don't think of.
When the time is rightfor him to retire, he will tell us himself.
On August 09 2008 19:42 humblegar wrote: Well written but who are we to say when Boxer should retire?
Boxer has Starcraft and nothing else, except coaching (I doubt he wants to be a commentator). But do you think SKT1 would work with Boxer and Oov as coaches together? Personally I don't like two really strong coaches (and legends) in a team, unless they have clearly different roles.
And as long as he has the physical strength and partners to practice like he wants (read: all the time), no other gamers will feel safe vs him. He will keep on consuming new maps like candy, finding new strategies and weird concepts/tricks that other gamers don't think of.
When the time is rightfor him to retire, he will tell us himself.
while your post is overall correct
Boxer has Starcraft and nothing else, except coaching (I doubt he wants to be a commentator).
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
BOXER HAS LIFE, HE ALREADY WON LIFE AND WILL CONTINUE WINNING LIFE UNTIL UNTIL HE DIES
Alright, in creating this article i wrote it under the premise that 99% of teamliquid would immediately reject the idea... but then people started agreeing with it. Theres probably somewhere between 10~25% of users here which have expressed that Boxer will not return to starcraft.
There were a number of omissions in the article, most of which ack aptly picked up. The most important thing about Boxer, which I didn't say anything about, is his passion for Starcraft. Above everything else this differentiates Boxer from every other progamer that has ever played the game. TheMarine was considered one of the only players who could go toe-to-toe with the Emperor, yet his interest waned and his skill deteriorated and he couldn't bounce back. That being said, his revival in 2004 was nothing short of miraculous, especially seeing as how TheMarine was reduced to the level of a B amateur before he staged his comeback.
TheMarine is proof that Boxer can, and will, come back to progaming. TheMarine's story is often forgotten amongst the glory stories of Nada, July and Oov. But look at it this way. TheMarine was comparable to Boxer in every way back in 2001, well, even before that really. But then in his slump between 2002-2003 he royally sucked. Over a period of two years (approximately the length of time that Boxer has been in the army) he made the group stages of two OSLs and one MSL and was eliminated in pathetic fashion in each of them. But on the whole, TheMarine never really achieved much and the record of 43.68% (38-49). Now compare this record to 40.32% (25-37) and you can see that Boxer's record during his stay in the airforce (where he made an MSL appearance) is perfectly comparable to TheMarines.
TheMarine had unlimited practice time, Boxer has restricted practice time
It was comparatively easier to maintain a 43% winrate in 2002/2003 than a 40% winrate in 2008
Boxer has a greater drive/passion/inspiration to keep playing than TheMarine
Im sure there are more parallels that i could draw but the bottom line is - Boxer is in a similar situation to TheMarine; and he came back to place third in an MSL in 2004.
Will the comeback be easy? No Will Boxer give up? No Is Boxer going to comeback? Yes he fucking will
Increase Boxer's practice time, increase Boxer's access to progaming and just watch as he gets exponentially better and fights his way back to the top. If TheMarine can do it, Boxer most certainly can.
While drawing the parallel to TheMarine may seem invalid, if you actually both to go read some of Boxer's recent interviews (notably this one) you can see that Boxer has as much passion as he has ever had and really this is the key component to a successful comeback. To become great at Starcraft one simply needs talent + will power. As we all know Boxer currently has both of these components, and that means that even if he instantly gets demoted to B-Team that he will rise from the ashes and will indeed add to his already impressive legend.
I have mixed feelings about this, I've always been a huge Boxer fan and will always hope that he'd get back on top and show the world what game is all about, but its true that he is old now and probably won't be able to compete with the new kids in action.
I can still have hope.
On August 09 2008 20:20 3D.Strelok wrote: Author just STFU.
Rekrul has met Boxer, he has fucking partied with him and awesome stuff like that, so he certainly has the right to speak like that if he wants.. but you, you're just good at Starcraft!
seriously have any of you guys watched any of boxers games nowadays?
he seriously seems happier when he loses than he wins
when he wins he looks like 'meh standard'
when he loses he has this unique cocky look on his face where u can tell he's just thinking about how it doesn't fucking matter at all and good for the other guy who just beat him and how he's the real winner anyways cause hey, "IM FUCKING BOXER AND THIS NEWB IS STILL PRACTICING 16 HRS A DAY WHILE I WON LIFE YEARS AGO LOL!!!!"
no but life isn't about what is and isn't necessary, and unlike you and countless little mouse clicking keyboard slamming nerds, boxer realized this a long time ago and revolutionized starcraft by thinking outside of the box
and thats why he's a mother fucking legend and u need to know ur fking role and get a clue before you spout such blasphemy about the god of progaming on the number one english starcraft website
NO I CANT CUZ ONLY BORING PEOPLE DONT ACT LIKE DICKFACES PLUS NO NEED TO MASK THE ANGER, HONESTLY LETTING IT ALL OUT IS CRUCIAL AND SOMETHING THAT ONLY THE MOST GENUINE OF PEOPLE DO
Those of us who live in the real world consider people who let all their anger out in the middle of a discussion to be lunatics, not "genuine".
Plexa works hard for this site and he expressed his opinion in a fine manner; he doesn't need an asshole like you storming in here acting like a little baby who has absolutely no conception of civility.
well obviously all the rage is out of love thats why i rage i would like to think that you guys are smart enough to realize that i realize plexa does deserve respect and does get plenty from me, that doesn't mean he's not going to get bashed for boxer blasphemy
and btw - well thought out article??
IF HE PUT ANY THOUGHT INTO IT HE WOULD HAVE NOT WRITTEN IT IN THE FIRST PLACE LOL
anyways if i posted all my points/opinions/facts in a really respectful cordial manner you guys would all respect and look up to me wayyyyyyyyy to much
that would make things around here just too easy and honestly easy isn't fun
On August 09 2008 21:21 Rekrul wrote: well obviously all the rage is out of love thats why i rage i would like to think that you guys are smart enough to realize that i realize plexa does deserve respect and does get plenty from me, that doesn't mean he's not going to get bashed for boxer blasphemy
and btw - well thought out article??
IF HE PUT ANY THOUGHT INTO IT HE WOULD HAVE NOT WRITTEN IT IN THE FIRST PLACE LOL
THiS IS FUCKING BOXER
GET A GRIP ON REALITY YOU FUCKING RETARDS
There's a reason Nolan Ryan doesn't play baseball anymore. There's a reason Joe Montana doesn't play football anymore. There's also a reason why Michael Jordan doesn't play basketball anymore.
They're all legends, but they all had to move on.
I personally disagree with Plexa on this; I think boxer should leave progaming on his own terms, when he's ready. That doesn't mean I'm going to call anyone who disagrees with me a faggot, an idiot or a retard.
Plexa put a lot more thought into this article than you've put into your last few posts.
like what fun is banging a bitch on the first night if she just gives it up? thats why guys only fuck girls they fuck on the first night once, cuz its just boring and not worth it
but when they cocktease u then freeze u out, holy shit that makes the end game so much more satisfying
On August 09 2008 21:21 Rekrul wrote: well obviously all the rage is out of love thats why i rage i would like to think that you guys are smart enough to realize that i realize plexa does deserve respect and does get plenty from me, that doesn't mean he's not going to get bashed for boxer blasphemy
and btw - well thought out article??
IF HE PUT ANY THOUGHT INTO IT HE WOULD HAVE NOT WRITTEN IT IN THE FIRST PLACE LOL
THiS IS FUCKING BOXER
GET A GRIP ON REALITY YOU FUCKING RETARDS
There's a reason Nolan Ryan doesn't play baseball anymore. There's a reason Joe Montana doesn't play football anymore. There's also a reason why Michael Jordan doesn't play basketball anymore.
They're all legends, but they all had to move on.
I personally disagree with Plexa on this; I think boxer should leave progaming on his own terms, when he's ready. That doesn't mean I'm going to call anyone who disagrees with me a faggot, an idiot or a retard.
Plexa put a lot more thought into this article than you've put into your last few posts.
BRETT FARVE JUST CAME BACK WITH THE JETS YO
comparing lim yo hwan to some fucking geezer to old to throw a ball anymore is just absurd
hes not even fking 30 and the the reason young players are all more successful than old players in sc is not because of the age, its the age that causes the pros to stop giving a shit once they get older and thats why they start sucking, boxer is still capable of whatever he wants and he's also not so full of himself to the point where he's going to make a big 'retirement' so he can 'come back' for sc2
he knows thats just fucking dumb and pointless because he is the mother fucking sc scene
The level of boxer fanboyism is astounding. He hasnt been good for years. I respect the moves he used to pull off but the game was different back then. When he tries that stuff now he fails. I don't think he will ever become a championship contender again. (Though getting off ace might atleast bring his win % back over 50)
BoxeR returning to OSL will most likely be like Schumacher going back to F1 in a Force India.
No matter how big a name, it's never only just the skill. It's a whole lot of circumstances that have to happen all at once. Times have changed, so it just isn't the same anymore, be it BoxeR or not.
Nevertheless, I really hope for BoxeR to succeed, but I'm not too hopeful about it.
On August 09 2008 20:58 Rekrul wrote: your name is red dude, act like it
Good advice rekrul; as a moderator i am obliged to keep the forums clean and productive
OMG u caught the hint and actually did it. see thats how my sense of humor works
Plexa I don't think you should feel sorry for banning me at all. And I really hope it doesn't break your heart cause I wasn't gunna stop until it happened. I was doing it out of sport/fun cause thats how my fucked up sense of humor entertains itself. My presence on teamliquid is not important at all and I have not done jack shit for the site in a long time and do pose a certain business threat to the site (though much less than the moderators that removed me think...cause honestly they are clueless--but thats besides the point). The only things I contribute to TL.net are my progaminggossip type shit posts and dramabomb posts...and we're all aware I don't do that out of my love for the community I do it because I'm a fucking attention whore and get off on building up the e-reputation. You were completely justified in banning me and I completely understand and take no offense (only way anyone can offend me is by not trusting me actually) so don't worry about that.
I am aware of everything you have done for this site and the community and have enjoyed reading several of your articles/posts. I thought that was a given so I didn't bother mentioning that I just flamed away. I'm used to everyone just understanding thats how I am and accepting the flames or brushing them off or fighting back in a similar flavor, cause those are the only kinds of people that I can have a real friendship with. I genuinely am sorry if I really did offend you, but honestly that was not my intent. I thought all my posts were funny as hell (especially the kitchen comment LOL) and I did think I had very valid points about this Boxer issue. Add all of that stuff up plus a massive hangover and me having a personality where all rationality goes out the window and I turn into a vicious raging dog that will defend his friends at any cost whenever I feel anyone has threatened them in any way and you have the verbal spew attack that I dished out on you.
I have a problem where I can't do stuff unless I think it's fun and just making simple statements about facts and opinions isn't enough, this is the internet and without flaming there is no community or fun. Without insulting people during e-debates it doesn't get heated and fun enough, and you end up with a bunch of kids spamming paragraph after paragraph trying to prove their point when in the end...its all opinions and no point will be proven and everyone is just wasting time and not even having fun in the process.
You really should have just called me an arrogant flaming fuck face and banned me, but since you left a nice description for the ban in the ban thread I decided to give you a serious reply.
I hope you understand and we can live in harmony in the future as friends even though I'm going to try extra hard to try and flame everything you write about in the future just because thats what my backwards sense of humor is telling me is the next logical step after this little incident. LOL.
p.s. lil tidbit for everyone i was out with lilsusie the other night and my korean hyung kept grabbing her tits all night randomly, and she liked it
On August 09 2008 20:58 Rekrul wrote: your name is red dude, act like it
Good advice rekrul; as a moderator i am obliged to keep the forums clean and productive
OMG u caught the hint and actually did it. see thats how my sense of humor works
Plexa I don't think you should feel sorry for banning me at all. And I really hope it doesn't break your heart cause I wasn't gunna stop until it happened. I was doing it out of sport/fun cause thats how my fucked up sense of humor entertains itself. My presence on teamliquid is not important at all and I have not done jack shit for the site in a long time and do pose a certain business threat to the site (though much less than the moderators that removed me think...cause honestly they are clueless--but thats besides the point). The only things I contribute to TL.net are my progaminggossip type shit posts and dramabomb posts...and we're all aware I don't do that out of my love for the community I do it because I'm a fucking attention whore and get off on building up the e-reputation. You were completely justified in banning me and I completely understand and take no offense (only way anyone can offend me is by not trusting me actually) so don't worry about that.
I am aware of everything you have done for this site and the community and have enjoyed reading several of your articles/posts. I thought that was a given so I didn't bother mentioning that I just flamed away. I'm used to everyone just understanding thats how I am and accepting the flames or brushing them off or fighting back in a similar flavor, cause those are the only kinds of people that I can have a real friendship with. I genuinely am sorry if I really did offend you, but honestly that was not my intent. I thought all my posts were funny as hell (especially the kitchen comment LOL) and I did think I had very valid points about this Boxer issue. Add all of that stuff up plus a massive hangover and me having a personality where all rationality goes out the window and I turn into a vicious raging dog that will defend his friends at any cost whenever I feel anyone has threatened them in any way and you have the verbal spew attack that I dished out on you.
I have a problem where I can't do stuff unless I think it's fun and just making simple statements about facts and opinions isn't enough, this is the internet and without flaming there is no community or fun. Without insulting people during e-debates it doesn't get heated and fun enough, and you end up with a bunch of kids spamming paragraph after paragraph trying to prove their point when in the end...its all opinions and no point will be proven and everyone is just wasting time and not even having fun in the process.
You really should have just called me an arrogant flaming fuck face and banned me, but since you left a nice description for the ban in the ban thread I decided to give you a serious reply.
I hope you understand and we can live in harmony in the future as friends even though I'm going to try extra hard to try and flame everything you write about in the future just because thats what my backwards sense of humor is telling me is the next logical step after this little incident. LOL.
p.s. lil tidbit for everyone i was out with lilsusie the other night and my korean hyung kept grabbing her tits all night randomly, and she liked it
There's a difference between insulting someone in an "e-debate" and typing shit like faggot and retard in caps. That's amateur hour stuff.
Flaming everything someone writes regardless of what it is is moronic, not funny.
I'm not offended by anything that you said rekrul, not one bit. Throughout the course of this thread there has been a number of people expressing the exact same sentiment. Fine by me, its just some internet kids getting all pissy about nothing really. The issue I had was purely the precedent set on the forums that this kind of posting is okay. The only thing that irked me in your entire set of posts was the fact that you didn't even read the article. I dont really care if you read it or not, but if your going to start flaming and then say you didn't read the thread then i have a problem.
Flaming is an integral part of having fun on a forum, thats indisputable. In a thread like this, with such a sensitive issue up for debate flaming is inevitable. But there's a point where it goes beyond flaming and it just becomes garbage. Im sure you're well aware of that. If you insist on flaming in future topics, at least try and be witty about it because at least then we get some comedy out of it.
I could have said that you were an arrogant flaming fuck, but i do respect you a lot. Probably too much. So you get a nice description, obviously if you were anyone else you'd get the obligatory flaming fuck reason.
nah he loves the game he still have the force to keep training.
why would he be different from any other player training?
let´s just wait and see.. the leagues are almost lottery nowadays....
and btw...i think if boxer win the golden mouse...is the end of starcraft..seriously is like " there´s nothing more to be achieved in starcraft" after that we will have just a few month or maybe a year till sc2 is released. who cares if boxer will win another ogn or no after the golden mouse? every result will be "ok". who cares if "Best"(who was "best" 1 year ago?) or any other NONAME (compared to boxer) win an starleague?
even if jaedong or flash can win 1 more starleague or mbc....will be like...hey..jaedong rule..he´s dominating now...but they will be unable to reach boxer glory.
yeah...all that IF boxer win the golden mouse... if that dont happen...we keep watching starcraft =) keep dreaming about boxer comeback keep dreaming about savior comeback yellow, ra, whatever player u like comeback keep waiting a new player to win everything.
boxer is BOTH the greatest and most entertaining player through all time, this is an undisputable fact. wishing that he would stop playing? that's horrible.
Well i havent read every comment so far so im writing this in dangers of repeating it.
Well ive seen at least the OP to be completely about boxer, but how about the fans, other veteran progamers, or the industry in general? Boxer is like the icon of esports, its not jaedong or best or flash, its always been boxer. With him retiring who would follow as well? Would people like yellow, reach, midas with the biggest salaries in progaming and the biggest fanclubs follow him as well? That would be a huge blow to professional starcraft.
No, i dont think boxer should retire, he is, i believe, already in the safe zone, people already know how he plays, his fans watch his games to awe themselves one more time at his creativity, more than expecting him to win.
As for the rest, im one of those people who really believe boxer will rise his game once hes out of the army; he may not reach a starleague final but his record should definitely improve and the creative and awe inspiring play of his should remain.
well im sure it has been said before but if boxer can still have the motivation the young ones have he has the same chance of succes i guess... it will be alot harder than back in the day tho, since the average level is much higher the competition is more fierce the chances of winning an entire OSL get smaller... no more easy opponents ... he could certainly do it but some luck is needed... but any player needs luck even the best of the best now (flash or jaedong or w/e)
Boxer is an icon of his sport and deserves to retire on his own terms. People don't care that he doesn't compete like he used to, they just like to witness a champion in action.
Nobody begrudges greats like George Forman, Jack Nicklaus and Michael Jordan when they play well beyond their peak. They, like Boxer, are former champions who every one respects and admires and this is why they go to watch them.
Competitive sports/leisure is not just about winning and performing. Boxer is to progaming what someone like Ali is boxing, Jordan is to basketball. They are the game.
You think progaming, you think Boxer. He has so much still to offer the game beyond winning OSLs and MSLs.
I dont care if he wins or loses,when he plays,he always does something pimp,or try to do- and he was always like that.Besides the fact of how important he was for the progaming + strategical evolution he is the most entertaining player ever,so making this topic full of numbers and statistics is nothing more than a blasphemy. I can't believe this of you. Whats next?Yellow retiring cause he doesnt make muta harrass in every tvz? Show some respect kid,if it werent those old schoolers progaming wouldnt be so big so you can play with your little numbers
On August 08 2008 23:08 Chill wrote: I completely disagree. I think you sell the greatest StarCraft player ever quite short.
I have to agree with Chill.
Boxer is currently not practicing enough. He remains highly creative and entertaining (locking down arbiters always looks nice). I believe that he should wait and see what happens when he goes back to normal pro-gamer training before taking a decision about his career.
Giving up when you are temporarly under-practice would be a bit stupid for a player like him.
I see where you are coming from, but I do disagree. Even though he has been looking bad at the moment, he can come back. Take a look at the Ever OSL. Not many people thought he could do it, but ingenuity and improved mechanics got him 2nd place.
I feel he should be able to come back, maybe not to his former glory, but definitely make some heads turn.
Sorry Plexa, but I disagree. Most progamers rise, shine, fade, and eventually disappear. By the time they retire, they've faded to the point that most people just give a "oh, that's too bad" and move on. But Boxer's different. Boxer IS Starcraft. After 8 years, people still love him almost as much as they used to. Even if he never becomes great again, I just don't think it would be acceptable for him to retire right now. He should at least try to get back in form and end on a slightly higher note.
I think that Boxer should take more of a Master Roshi role. Check it out. Obviously Boxer will never have the skill if some of these kids who's parents have trained them to be Starcraft killing machines since they were five. Now by skill I mean those macro mechanics that Oov brought to the game. That's something that's more of a brain type thing. You know how it's easier to learn how to throw a ball when you are younger and whatnot. However I haven't seen anyone (I'm a noob btw) who can match Boxer in Early Game. He just understands on a conscious level the game better than anyone alive. So if you all remember the second season of Dragon Ball when Goku enters the world tournament and Master Roshi comes in disguise and beats the crap out of him? That's what I want Boxer to do. It seems like all of the people who are at the top keep getting knocked down in a king of the hill kind of fashion. Savior got beat by Bisu. Bisu seemed to be replaced at the top by Jaedong. Jaedong and Flash grudingly seemed to hold the hill together until Luxury came by and wailed on him at OSL. This doesn't seem like the best way to determine who is the greatest. Bisu feaver was the reason that Savior started sucking, but that doesn't change the fact that he is one of the most fucking ridiculous progamers ever. There needs to be many progamers that are considerd at the top of their game. And it needs to be the old timers like Boxer that humble them, not each other.
He can win Incruit too, I'd be fine with that. Sorry about that Dragon Ball reference.
*EDIT* Sorry that was MSL offlines and he lost. My fault
I think Rekrul's perspective, having lived in Korea all these years, met BoxeR, and known many other pros as well, is different. And the OP kind of sounds insulting, like "even if BoxeR wants to play, he shouldn't."
I think his defense of the Man himself is more intense because he's closer to him than almost anyone on TL.net.
Boxer will never quit until he reaches on his 30's he said..... from what i think once Boxer is at his 30's he will quit a month of later but i dont care if Boxer loses because his games are entertaining
Not a good idea to fade away after his crappy run on Ace. Instead he should try to stage a massive comeback after he comes back to SKT1 and at least try to make himself into a bigger legend then he already is. Why go out with a whimper after his somewhat pathetic showing in ACE, a military airforce gaming team? Rekrul seems correct when he said age itself isn't an issue instead its more of people getting damn bored of the game after being confined to gaming rooms practicing 12+ hours a day. Once you get to age 24 or higher after a good 3 or 4 years of constant playing the older Korean progamers will probably be thinking "There's gotta be more to life then this" and either burn out and move to something else or continue playing robotically, methodically purely out of money obligation or to help out their proleague team through mentoring the next generation or helping out in some 2v2s.
Not Boxer though, he has a lot of passion for the game and has great skill in the game. He doesn't care for the money or fame as much as simply enjoying a good game of Starcraft. I got pretty bored of playing Starcraft by mass gaming for a few weeks on Iccup, but this guy Boxer has a beastly love and addiction for Starcraft playing for approximately 7-8 years. iLoveoov, Boxer's "son", burned out faster than Boxer not because of some silly arm injury but because in my opinion, he simply lost the passion to play maybe due to the fact that he wasn't the best anymore. Signs of either a quitter or someone who doesn't seem to have much fun with the game. Take your pick. Once again this is just my opinion but talented players who go to coaching are lamers.
You argue that Boxer should quit because frankly he is never going to win anything big but that's not what its about. As corny as it sounds its not all about him winning but more for having fun with some computer game that entertains mass legions of people.
Honestly, in my mind I saw StarCraft 2 as bring Boxer back up. SC2 will be a completely new game and if anyone can adapt to it quickly, Boxer can. I believe that if Boxer is still in the progaming scene and SC2 catches on in Korea, he'll be able to catch some of his fire if he does transition.
I think Boxer has a great chance of making a comeback. Yes the skill level is much higher now than from when Boxer dominated. But I feel that his ability to even be able to compete still shows you how strong he is. A 40% win ratio does not look telling on paper but like you said, the skill is much higher now and boxer cannot practice as much or with as many strong players as some of the other proleague teams. Personally I'd like Boxer to be able to focus his efforts on on another OSL title because I'd love to see him win a Golden mouse.
The top Korean pro gamers only have a win percentage of around 60% overall. Up to 70% if they are having a good season. Of course there are some exceptions. I know Savior had a crazy win ratio once. I think it would be fair to say if Boxer get's back to a stronger team with more practice time he could easily increase that number. I think what is fairer to say is that he probably will not dominate any of the leagues like he used to. In fact no one has since Savior.
There are too many strong, newer players for there to probably be any real dominance period for any one player now. I mean come on we've had Bisu, Stork, Mind, Jaedong, and Flash who have all been talked about to be the next hero of the pro gaming scene. They all are just too good in my opinion so it will be hard for anyone one player to have consistent showings at any of the various leagues throughout seasons.
I think the main good that could come from a Boxer comeback is immortality. Boxer is easily in the upper bracket as far as his age is concerned. Right now the leagues are highly focused on the younger, newer crowds joining the scene. If Boxer can show that old guys can play to it will change people's thoughts about how long a pro gamers career should last. There should never be an age limit on how young a person has to be until they should retire. I mean seriously most of those guys we consider old are mid 20's at best. These guys would be considered kids to my parents and babies to an even older person. Age is something that has bothered me for awhile about the leagues and the cultural viewpoint on that is something I would like to see changed.
Firstly, i am not the worlds most intelligent person, nor am i the worlds greatest Starcraft player. But i think that "age" has little to do with playing ability. As some people have pointed out, its drive and dedication that younger players are able to give that gives the illusion that they are more skilled. It would be illogical to expect Boxer, a person who has already done it all in the world of Starcraft, to be forever trying to prove that he can. He already has. And people move on sometimes. Just like all these younger players will. But just because they do doesnt mean they should, or that there is some talent advantage to being 17 instead of 26 or whatever. The only advantage young player has is that he is believing that the world rests on his ability to win. A mature human being comes to grips with the fact that nothing really matters, win, lose, its all a bigger picture. And thats nothing to condemn someone for.
One last thing, watching Boxer play Starcraft in the old days made me realize that Starcraft is not a toy. It really somehow through happy accident and brilliant innovation has been made into an art form that is unique. It is literally the greatest videogame of all time, worthy of being called a "sport". And i still see Boxer doing shit from time to time that reminds me of all that. Its not even really about winning games. Of course, competing essentially IS about winning or losing but when you start to take dumps on people for having to take time away to serve their country or for moving on with their life or considering that only robot like ultra efficient but boring playing styles of 15 year old kids are worthy of the game then YOU have lost.
On August 09 2008 19:42 humblegar wrote: Well written but who are we to say when Boxer should retire?
Boxer has Starcraft and nothing else, except coaching (I doubt he wants to be a commentator). But do you think SKT1 would work with Boxer and Oov as coaches together? Personally I don't like two really strong coaches (and legends) in a team, unless they have clearly different roles.
And as long as he has the physical strength and partners to practice like he wants (read: all the time), no other gamers will feel safe vs him. He will keep on consuming new maps like candy, finding new strategies and weird concepts/tricks that other gamers don't think of.
When the time is rightfor him to retire, he will tell us himself.
while your post is overall correct
Boxer has Starcraft and nothing else, except coaching (I doubt he wants to be a commentator).
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
BOXER HAS LIFE, HE ALREADY WON LIFE AND WILL CONTINUE WINNING LIFE UNTIL UNTIL HE DIES
BOXER CAN DO WHATEVER THE FUCK HE WANTS
FUCK UR ALL RETARDS
I am sure if you just relaxed you could perhaps see that I did not mean he has no life. I have crazy as me in my bookshelf, a present from Yakii, and I watch every game he plays. So no, I did not mean it like that.
I ment it in a way that he is Starcraft, Starcraft is him, his life, what he wants, what he does. And as far as I have understood him from interviews, that's how he wants it to be.
I don't really see why he has to quit even IF he could never get back to the position he held in 2001.
It can be sad when old legends continue past their primes and start losing but you know, this isn't boxing or MMA, there's no physical repercussions for losing. As long as he enjoys doing what he's doing I think he should continue.
On August 09 2008 03:47 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: it is my opinion that is a complete retard like BackHo can get to OSL simply by practicing, then someone as mentally gifted as Boxer can come back
Boxer is often cited for mental strength, and I see that in his passion and dedication and creativity. However, is he truly mentally strong like July? I don't think so. No way July goes 0-4 in finals. True mental strength is performing your best when it matters most, and Boxer has consistently shown to produce losing results on the largest stage. Yes, I said it, but it's true, and nobody talks about the possibility of a Boxer chokeness in finals because everyone gives him a free pass and are blinded by the uniqueness of his style and his ambassador / legend status for the game in general. But the guy is the anti-clutch. Makes finals and loses. He has, gasp, some choker Midas in him, no matter how many comeback games and cool moves he pulls of. 0-4 proves it; his only wins come against someone who is an even bigger choker (Yellow).
Therefore, he's not as mentally strong as people think he is.
All of boxers "chokes" came when facing protoss players. Which is, and always has been, his weakest matchup.
In addition he might very well have had 3 OSL wins if they hadn't changed the maps without prior notice (ie they removed a tank drop spot on incubus without telling anyone, so boxer opened fast tank drop and tried to drop tanks only to find there was only water).
I don't know if boxer is exceptionally strong when it comes to nerves, but I don't think any of his losses (in finals) were "chokes"...
In addition he might very well have had 3 OSL wins if they hadn't changed the maps without prior notice (ie they removed a tank drop spot on incubus without telling anyone, so boxer opened fast tank drop and tried to drop tanks only to find there was only water).
I don't know if boxer is exceptionally strong when it comes to nerves, but I don't think any of his losses (in finals) were "chokes"...
When I was reading Boxer's autobiography type book, that moment kind of ticked me off. He took it so passively when it would have changed the way people look back. It could have been 3 straight OSLs if not for that.
Some things I would like to state: 1.) Boxer started "slumping" once he entered a remission state into his military service and into ACE, as stated, he was doing particularly well in MSL but was unfortunately cut off. As of now, Boxer gets about half the practice time a regular progamer does and I think that's the biggest factor to his decline atm. This 1.5 year gap doesn't suddenly mean Boxer has suddenly grown white hair and crippled, but rather out of practice, it is a fact that human reaction time does not degenerate significantly until you are in your 30s, and drops little by little until your 60s where it drops significantly from there on, I will pull a source info on this when I get the chance, I'm 99% sure I read this somewhere, so that is not a huge problem for boxer now.
2.) The skill disparity of progamers is extremely close and results are becoming more and more varied. Its possible for Yellow to STILL manage to be a threat in a tournament vs younger players, a relatively little known protoss to take down jaedong in a bo3, a subpar zerg with 30% win rec on tv to beat Casy, or even Junwi edge out a win vs Sheis in the prelims, and even Frozen,rumble, backho making it to the OSL. There are tons of progamers who I think are better than the ones seen on TV who have not yet seen the spotlight, and they haven't gotten the chance cause its so difficult to break out of the small lines in between. Older players contend with playing differently than the younger, using their experiences to gain build order advantages and having a stronger mentality/intuition for the game, although I will admit many older gamers have faltered, when boxer loses, he does not falter in the same crippling way as he rarely ever loses to cheese, nor surprise tactics, which shows some consistent strength on its own. He gets overwhelmed by superior macro many of the times, but that's always been an Achilles heel to him, especially in his tvp, but his TvT has shown some modest success, and his rare wins tvz/tvp showed some highly effective and creative play, no different than in his prime.
I believe starcraft has "matured" now, strategies and flow of play is no longer a big wtf of surprises and people practice days on end to match timing, build orders, and other collective skills, since it has become so much more understood now, it gives anyone the ability with this inferior quality vs this superior quality a fighting chance by fitting to their strengths/style by alternating build order plans and tactics to suit their needs.
With some exceptions, I believe the majority of all progamers fit the middle line, with the best of them with some little qualities that make them stand out, IE jaedong's mechanics, forgg's insane macro/timing, Much's analytical play, Nada's adaptability, and Boxer's creativity fits the same bill. Sure, people can make out creative plays here and there, but Boxer's ingenuity practically kept him alive all these years when his mechanics weren't on the same level of his opponents, and that in itself is an admirable trait.
I wouldn't go as far as boxer will be forced to cheese to get wins from now on, but what I do know is he going to abuse all of the maps little niches and create a build order to negate the current trends of that map, as he always has.
On August 10 2008 14:09 travis wrote: if someone sucks they should stop if they don't plan on getting better
i don't follow pro gaming but that seems simple enough
That could be said about a lot of people out in real life, but if they love it so much, enjoy it and fulfills them in a way and has the option to stay, then let em' be.
I wonder if for some of the old school gamers, pro SC is turning into a chore for them, like it did to IntoTheRain. Maybe they are losing motivation and their drive?
1. For the fans? The fans still love him. We still want to see him perform.
2. For himself, because he can't win any more?
- Just as old school players like Garimto have tried and failed, others like JulyZerg have succeeded. Using 'cheese' and creative strategies in two of the three matches in the OSL final, no less.
- Experience, especially when it comes to the big stage, surely must count for something. Boxer has experience in spades.
- In the airforce, Boxer does not receive adequate training time, and the standard of practice partners probably isn't there. Once he gets out, I believe he can perform, as long as he has the motivation to train and win.
- 'Form is temporary, class is permanent'. Or something. Why, exactly, do you say that Boxer cannot scale this steep learning curve?
- Even if Boxer may never win, does that he should stop trying? Realistically speaking, more than half of the progamers will never get anywhere close to a starleague title. Win a starleague, or die trying. The arguments you listed - mass influx of gamers, big difference in skill - applies to every relatively older gamer. Should they quit as well?
- I think your argument that there is a 'Boxer' effect, without further substantiation, is pure conjecture. Boxer has been out of it for a while now. Is it not as likely that gamers, recognising the skill differences between him and present gamers as you say, will underestimate him?
On August 10 2008 04:50 hixhix wrote: somewhat off topic: imagine if boxer is back to SKT1 and practices under oov's supervision, it'd be awkward.
oov: hey old teacher, if you lose to those 13 year old kids again, you are going to clean the toilet for 1 week.
oov in ilovestar said boxer never formally taught him it was more of a watch me play and learn by copying or something like that. And oov said boxer didnt come to his wedding
On August 10 2008 04:50 hixhix wrote: somewhat off topic: imagine if boxer is back to SKT1 and practices under oov's supervision, it'd be awkward.
oov: hey old teacher, if you lose to those 13 year old kids again, you are going to clean the toilet for 1 week.
oov in ilovestar said boxer never formally taught him it was more of a watch me play and learn by copying or something like that. And oov said boxer didnt come to his wedding
Even Boxer probably can't skip army to go to a wedding..
Plexa's missing the point here. Boxer's progaming life isn't all about winning, but about his style and passion. Even when he loses, he brings us excitement and hope.
Honestly, Boxer's unique game vs Odin was superior to any of the 3-0 utter rape finals.
Boxer shouldn't retire. Even if he goes into a 1W-10L record, if that 1 win is achieved with one of his amazing creative strats, his fans will be happy. And so will be most of the sc community. He has a huge impact on the game even if he is not owning the proscene. Just look at his ghost lockdown against arbiters vs Free. Couple of weeks later it was used by other progamer(can't remember what terran was). And had he won that game vs Odin with the nukes, well, I don't have to tell you how the media and fans would have reacted.
Boxer hanging in there, giving his fans some crazy wins here and there, is enough for the progaming community to keep dreaming about his comeback. And the day that not only does he give a crazy strat win to the fans from time to time, but he manages to use those strats to climb again to a starleague final, THAT alone could bring another golden era for starcraft in terms of audience and media.
I can see BoxeR getting one little squeeze out of his pro-gaming career after he leaves the military due to his personality (the guy won't give up). But he should go to being a coach.
hm funny how u get flamed with 25 posts by saying basically the same to all the overexcited boxer fanboys after todays games, but when plexa writes an article about it, nobody denies the obvious.
btw i just found this in plexas "to bolt is to boxer", written 3 weeks after this article: "The Emperor is returning with one goal in mind – winning the Golden Mouse. Boxer will show us the way forward through these dark times and revitalize the glorious Starcraft scene and preserve it for years to come."
Kinda makes me wonder if u put ur honest opinion in articles or just write anything for the sake of a good article. I mean its quite a 180° turn to go from "boxer u have gotten too far behind, stop embarassing yourself and ur fans and quit" to "boxer will revitalize the scene and be the shining light".
edit: oh I just read ur second post, seems u started to believe again much earlier. Well, to put it in ur own words "as much as I would cream my pants seeing Boxer in an OSL finals again, realistically it will never happen". Maybe in SC2 though, his talent and understanding of strategy games is still undeniably one of the best, if not the best.
On October 03 2008 00:25 damenmofa wrote: hm funny how u get flamed with 25 posts by saying basically the same to all the overexcited boxer fanboys after todays games, but when plexa writes an article about it, nobody denies the obvious.
On August 08 2008 23:02 BottleAbuser wrote: To oversimplify: Boxer needs more practice than he can get, and his style won't get him anywhere anymore - he's playing against a different crowd.
Well...... you just spent like 9/10 of your post talking about how he was awesome because he kept changing his style. *shrug*
I dunno, I think it's still possible that starcraft can be optimized more, and it's possible that boxer will do it. Not holding my breath, but that's no reason to quit.
his style will get him a fanbase and sponsorships.. maybe its not all about winning titles? whats he gunna do, quit playing the game he loves and go work a desk job somewhere?
LOL I thought about bumping this topic too... Although TBH, he didn't exactly beat a great player, he still showed he's got what it takes if he can clean up all his little mistakes. + Show Spoiler [Boxer GOM TV] +
Somehow, I think Boxer made a bet with someone that he'd nuke the poor guy lol.
his performance against Baxter is a good reason why he should stay
maybe hes not on top anymore, or cant defeat some of the major contenders of today, but goddamn, does he know how to put on a show and entertain! i stayed up last night just to watch him play, and it was oh so worth it just to see him live, and to hear nick cast boxer's games
On October 03 2008 09:01 Hypnosis wrote: Boxer sucks huge nuts now, he just is not good at all.. he's sick but not up to par, he should become a spaceman mascot for some team or something.
Give him a chance first after he comes back. He hasn't had enough practice.
On October 03 2008 06:46 useLess wrote: his performance against Baxter is a good reason why he should stay
maybe hes not on top anymore, or cant defeat some of the major contenders of today, but goddamn, does he know how to put on a show and entertain! i stayed up last night just to watch him play, and it was oh so worth it just to see him live, and to hear nick cast boxer's games
Exactly. The man is an entertainer, if not a progamer.
boxer has been experimenting with macro strategies and the new styles of play... it's interesting to see, and i do believe he will eventually find a perfect blend of both his insane trickery with going for long term resource/macro advantages like some kind of insane robot sent back from the future to do one thing: rape noobz.
like nevake said, he needs to be able to practice and really dedicate himself to the game before he is able to prove he can keep up with the best of today's players, but i think he can do it. he is very smart, and i think he will adapt, and probably evolve the game again.
I would rather he faded straight into obscurity than attempt a comeback and fail miserably, it would crush me if he said he was going to win something for his fans and then was knocked out at the last (or even the first) hurdle that crossed his path.
He is the reason I got into progaming, he is the reason progaming is the way it is today, and if he sullied his legend with an embarassing defeat it would be crippling to starcraft and everyone that follows it.
On December 04 2008 13:54 nataziel wrote: I would rather he faded straight into obscurity than attempt a comeback and fail miserably, it would crush me if he said he was going to win something for his fans and then was knocked out at the last (or even the first) hurdle that crossed his path.
He is the reason I got into progaming, he is the reason progaming is the way it is today, and if he sullied his legend with an embarassing defeat it would be crippling to starcraft and everyone that follows it.
Disagree ¬¬ Boxer won't fade and against what mani ppl think he's gonna come back, maybe he won't win any mayor league this year or next but we will see him on the top 50 again ^^ and maybe even top 20 and WTF maybe in top 10 ^^
Even if he fails to come back won't be bad not for SC, not for Proscene, not for us the fans and not for his legacy, hes over all that you'll see my friend
boxer will return and improve if he wishes to, come on kids its a fuckin video game not olympic gymnastics, lets be serious. Once his macro is deceint enough hell be good, just look at upmagic right now and boxer can actually micro well..just imagine.
Greatest in what regard? He is far from the most successful gamer of all time and doesn't have too many stats on paper to support that claim.
The greatest player on paper is either July (because of his golden mouse) or Nada. Both of these are players that I can see being considered as great as boxer but not greater. Also, even though there are other players who are better on paper it's difficult to see considering them greater than boxer. You're trying to think about starcraft players' love of boxer rationally but I think theres a completely irrationa...something.. that creates love for players like boxer, july, nada, savior, bisu, jaedong, flash... They bring more to the game than their game. I think theres definitely something to be said for that.
Much to my dismay I agree with you completly. Boxer will always be the emperor. He started it all, but for him to come back in this day and age of starcraft is just too much for anyone to handle. He paved the way for us like the founding fathers did for the USA.
Unfortunatly, They are all dead... and so is Boxer's career.
When he went back to SKT T1.. I was soooo excited. I couldn't believe that finally he was on a REAL team again.
How long has it been now, a few months.. Still no appearance, Is he still in training..?
I'm sure he is still training with the team but when is he going to show his face and hit the stage...
I'm not ready to let boxer go until the Kespa makes a big deal out of it. I want a huge good bye ceremony... Highlight games, followed by him playing against the old greats of his time...
IloveOov, Garimto, Nal_ra... Lets see some of these faces show their respect and call it a day.
I joined TL just to comment about my opinion of boxer (since english isn't my mother language I m sorry for my bad grammar) so I wish nobody will upset I bump up a 2 month out of date thread
when boxer became a defending champion before he joined the military, people think he is a master of starcraft
when he comeback after conscription I remembered most people think that his skills are fall below standard that is impossible to him to become no 1# like before
BUT, he prove worthy on the 1st place and most people think that he is a grandmaster of starcraft until now
now despite many change made by blizzard for starcraft 2 people think that this is the end of boxer and this time the champion will be a new face..
I myself don't know for sure if the champion will be a new face or not, but this time I will put my bet in boxer since he prove himself a worthy player that not all talk..
If he become the champion AGAIN this time it will earn him a place higher than "master" or "grandmaster" among his fans and other starcraft players, he will become a LEGEND among gamers.