What the Fandango is up with Jae Dong. The first time I recall remembering his name being mentioned was in Race Wars, and then people were bitching about how they picked him to go with Savior and I can't remember who the other team mate was instead of July to represent Zerg. Then Rock did his karate head chop winning stance after beating him easily and no-one thought of it as a big deal. Now to even suggest Rock beating him would be ridiculous.
Same with Flash, shortly after Bisu's win against Savior Flash cheesed Bisu twice in some tournament going around the same time and people complained about that. Then he lost to Stork by trying to shoot down his Carriers with Goliaths in the semi-finals or something and people were criticising his lack of late game skill and calling him an amateur who lucks his way into tournaments.
Now everyone thinks they're gods. I can't stand them, in the way you hate certain celebrities - you can't deny that they're successful, but you still think they're smarmy bastards. + Show Spoiler +
Jaedong beating Much in the recent semi-finals was so annoying.
Much is like the modern day Nal Ra, doing crazy innovative Protoss tricks in every game to make watching his games entertaining. Him and Beserker are definitely CJ's top strategists in terms of always having interesting gameplay. Anyway, they're the real Butabi brothers:
Poll: Do you like Flash and Jaedong? (Vote): Yes (Vote): No
Please note the question is not asking whether you think they're good players, but whether you like them as people. Remember Iris' polite friendliness at WWI 2007 and how he genuinely tried to give the TL folks attention despite not being able to speak English, rather than Reach's awkward shyness (there's a TL video recording of him somewhere, isn't there)? And of course we don't know them personally but neither do we know movie stars when we decide whether or not we like them.
Edit: fixed the SNL Roxbury link as the embedding was disabled for that video.
To clarify for the meatheads:
On July 12 2008 01:06 thedeadhaji wrote: whether i like them as people? are you fucking retarded?
How complicated does it have to be? It's as simple as asking are you a Jaedong fan. Yes or no. If you think that's an incredulous question to be asking you're the one who's fucking retarded.
Here, I'll give you an example. Here is a list of my favourite pro-gamers (in order):
Nal Ra (exciting proxy strategies) Iris (consistently interesting to watch because despite not always winning when he does win it's certainly well deserved) Savior (when he was easily beating OOv) Much (always trying new things) Casy (especially in his semi-finals match against Nada in 2006, even though he lost)
Now simply apply the question: are you a fan of Jaedong or not? + Show Spoiler +
I am a fan of Much therefore I was disappointed with him losing to Jaedong. Much does not have to be the best player for me to root for him, and neither does Jaedong have to be a bad player for me to not support him and cheer for him.
I wanted to see whether anyone shared my views of not being a Jae Dong fan, as thinking he is legendary seems to be the current fad and questioning whether he's that great is like being labeled as a selfish climate change denier who doesn't care for future generations. I'll accept he is kicking ass but I'm not a fan of him.
Their job is to win, not to entertain you. Much does not do 'crazy innovative Protoss tricks in every game' either.. and if those kinds of cutsey maneuvers are what's entertaining and not Jaedong's/Flash's masterful play, I feel sorry you cannot appreciate the true beauty of professional BW.
I have nothing against Jae Dong's masterful play. I just find it ironic that before they became the top two players everyone hated them and was pissed off at them, for example, for beating Bisu (Flash), or being picked for Race Wars instead of July (Jae Dong) and ridiculed them when they lost (eg. to Rock). I would be curious to know if you have always been consistent in your like/dislike of them. It's like someone being a Savior supporter - he may no longer be the best player but his fans still get excited when he plays because they think he's cool (and all his bland yet funny mannerisms, eg. Jju's neck roll imitation or bored look after beating Midas). It has nothing to do with how well he plays now. I am merely asking whether you like them, otherwise your favourite progamer will just change with every season. Theoretically you must have loved GGPlay at the start of this year then. Jaedong and Flash are just the current flavour of the month. I mean his games against Iris were entertaining and all but that was only for those five games - every single other game he ever played you didn't even notice him or his personality. FBH on the other hand whether you love him or hate him at least you can identify him as for example the anti-Savior, as Savior was to OOv.
Edit: If those kinds of cutsey maneuvers are what's entertaining and not Jaedong's/Flash's masterful play, I feel sorry you cannot appreciate the true beauty of professional BW.
I suppose you'd say this was just some cutsey maneuver and not appreciating the true beauty of professional BW because proper attack units weren't used then:
I always disliked flash, and I only heard of Jaedong when much beat him in OSC best of 3 on longinius arkanoid and something else. I was quite upset as well at this disapoiting semi finals.
On July 12 2008 00:45 Zelniq wrote: Their job is to win, not to entertain you. Much does not do 'crazy innovative Protoss tricks in every game' either.. and if those kinds of cutsey maneuvers are what's entertaining and not Jaedong's/Flash's masterful play, I feel sorry you cannot appreciate the true beauty of professional BW.
Furthermore Zelniq, this thread here is an example of what I'm talking about. If you're going to judge the pro scene merely by statistics then you might as well go tell this person off for not appreciating the true beauty of professional BW: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=75011 - how dare people show their appreciation of BackHo based on things other than solely how good he is playing.
Sure, crazy strategists like Boxer and Nal_ra have always had a lot of flair and attention-grabbing moves, as well as micro players like Intotherainbow and July. You have to respect the fact that Jaedong and Flash represent a different focal point on the game to attain victory. They excel in the less flashy but equally challenging task of having the strong game backbone - eco/macro, like oov and Nada before them. It's not necessarily (in my opinion) that they strive to make a boring game or go just for the win, it's their method of gameplay - at such a high level of play, your personal preferences as to how you like to play become clearer, and you have to use your strengths to succeed. I'm not saying that they have poor micro or what not, this is definitely not the case, but I do believe they have greater confidence in (mostly) macro-oriented games, so that is what they try to achieve. This goes more for Flash than Jaedong from what I've seen, but still.
Their preference doesn't match yours - simple as that.
EDIT: Closer to your recent point, I think that inexperienced players are often disliked when they take out an old star. However, this is how they had to win at that time - it's all part of the game. They are both very young, I'm sure it is stressful starting up as a pro-gamer, and it took time for their skills to blossom and to overcome any fear they had while playing. The recent "Mind Games" FE makes this evolution of Flash more vivid, compared to his cheesy beginnings.
On July 12 2008 01:08 thedeadhaji wrote: wait a minute why am i even replying to you, the very fact that you have a progamer ripoff ID as your username means you're shit.
On July 12 2008 01:06 thedeadhaji wrote: whether i like them as people? are you fucking retarded?
How complicated does it have to be? It's as simple as asking are you a Jaedong fan. Yes or no. If you think that's an incredulous question to be asking you're the one who's fucking retarded.
Here, I'll give you an example. Here is a list of my favourite pro-gamers (in order):
Nal Ra (exciting proxy strategies) Iris (consistently interesting to watch because despite not always winning when he does win it's certainly well deserved) Savior (when he was easily beating OOv) Much (always trying new things) Casy (especially in his semi-finals match against Nada in 2006, even though he lost)
I dont know about Flash but Jaedong is awesome to watch and a progamer I really like
he shows a lot more emotion when he plays than many other people, and his focus is pretty insane. Not to mention hes actually one of the least "boring" of the dominant players now -- he has fewer macro-oriented builds than anyone else. Half his lineup consists of the most perfectly orchestrated hyper-agressive all-in builds that would make July proud. (vs Much game 2) (vs Hwasin game 3), and he is definitely one of the most creative players on the scene.
On July 12 2008 01:08 thedeadhaji wrote: wait a minute why am i even replying to you, the very fact that you have a progamer ripoff ID as your username means you're shit.
So what's your dumb name supposed to mean then? I chose this name because I found it curious no-one had adapted to it and still often call him Casy so wanted to get it out there more.
It's pretty common that up-and-coming players who beat the old favorites take a while to gain popularity. Whenever any no-name beats a popular pro, many people are disappointed because of their hopes for the old-schooler. But by doing this consistently, that's exactly how new players gain names for themselves and become the Legend Killer or Ultimate Weapon.
I'd also say the way they've identified and fixed old weaknesses are inspirational, actually. Flash used to have a rather weak lategame and was forced to try to end games early. He was laughably bad against carriers. But now he's known as a macro terran, and has totally changed how the dynamics of PvT with his anti-carrier build and micro. Jaedong's transition from weak against protoss to utterly destroying Much 4-0 is also amazing. Laughing at their old weaknesses in the face of how completely they've been eradicated seems absurd to me.
I also consider both players strong strategically too, not just boring mechanical players. Both can win games early or late, creatively or standard.
On July 12 2008 01:12 SonuvBob wrote: July played in the race war (Savior/Jaedong/July).
I don't think anyone hated Jaedong, he was just less known (even though he was a monster in Proleague)
Thanks for that... I can't actually recall who it was that people were unhappy about Jae Dong being selected over. Do you remember? I'm tempted to say Silver but I don't think it was him.
This is all I remember:
Protoss - Bisu, Nal Ra, Anytime Terran - Hwasin..? Zerg - as you say, Savior, Jaedong, July
I kind of know where he is coming from though, Flash and Jaedong just don't put out that 'Godly Aura' or so to speak (At least not for me). When Savior was on top of his game, whenever he played, you could feel it, before a game started you knew that he would win, not just because of statistics, but because you felt it. And it's not like he did any kind of extravagant ceremonies or anything. With Jaedong and Flash, it's just like... you know they will win just because well... they have been. And it's like, "Oh, they're still winning" and not like, "FUCK YES YOU ARE MY GOD" kind of thing.
I can respect them though, don't get me wrong, they both are fantastic players and are great at what they do, but can I put them up on a pedestal...? Most definitely not.
On July 12 2008 01:12 SonuvBob wrote: July played in the race war (Savior/Jaedong/July).
I don't think anyone hated Jaedong, he was just less known (even though he was a monster in Proleague)
Thanks for that... I can't actually recall who it was that people were unhappy about Jae Dong being selected over. Do you remember? I'm tempted to say Silver but I don't think it was him.
This is all I remember:
Protoss - Bisu, Nal Ra, Anytime Terran - Hwasin..? Zerg - as you say, Savior, Jaedong, July
I've always loved Flash, I've always hated Jaedong. Jaedong is just...well to say the least, I cant wait until he hits a massive slump and loses to random Chobo's, crushing his dreams and retiring.
On July 12 2008 01:28 afiddy wrote: I kind of know where he is coming from though, Flash and Jaedong just don't put out that 'Godly Aura' or so to speak (At least not for me). When Savior was on top of his game, whenever he played, you could feel it, before a game started you knew that he would win, not just because of statistics, but because you felt it. And it's not like he did any kind of extravagant ceremonies or anything. With Jaedong and Flash, it's just like... you know they will win just because well... they have been. And it's like, "Oh, they're still winning" and not like, "FUCK YES YOU ARE MY GOD" kind of thing.
I can respect them though, don't get me wrong, they both are fantastic players and are great at what they do, but can I put them up on a pedestal...? Most definitely not.
That's true, nobody has attained true Godlike/Bonjwa status since Savior fell (or everybody else rose). But does that mean you don't like them, as fans?
On July 12 2008 00:52 AdamaS wrote: I have nothing against Jae Dong's masterful play. I just find it ironic that before they became the top two players everyone hated them and was pissed off at them, for example, for beating Bisu (Flash), or being picked for Race Wars instead of July (Jae Dong) and ridiculed them when they lost (eg. to Rock). I would be curious to know if you have always been consistent in your like/dislike of them. It's like someone being a Savior supporter - he may no longer be the best player but his fans still get excited when he plays because they think he's cool (and all his bland yet funny mannerisms, eg. Jju's neck roll imitation or bored look after beating Midas). It has nothing to do with how well he plays now. I am merely asking whether you like them, otherwise your favourite progamer will just change with every season. Theoretically you must have loved GGPlay at the start of this year then. Jaedong and Flash are just the current flavour of the month. I mean his games against Iris were entertaining and all but that was only for those five games - every single other game he ever played you didn't even notice him or his personality. FBH on the other hand whether you love him or hate him at least you can identify him as for example the anti-Savior, as Savior was to OOv.
Edit: If those kinds of cutsey maneuvers are what's entertaining and not Jaedong's/Flash's masterful play, I feel sorry you cannot appreciate the true beauty of professional BW.
I suppose you'd say this was just some cutsey maneuver and not appreciating the true beauty of professional BW because proper attack units weren't used then:
yes I liked Flash the moment I first saw his game, I thought he showed a lot of promise and expected him to start winning some starleagues within a year. But actually when he started to come back very strong last year, I didn't feel very much of anything for him, as I saw nothing extraordinary about his play, just all-around solid play that I felt would not be enough for him to win multiple starleagues. As for Jaedong, I thought he was good when I first saw him play, but didn't feel anything much more than that until he really started to impress me. With each game he played my interest grew, until he finally started dominating the scene. I was confident he'd win 2007's Ever OSL early in the tournament, with such amazing mutalisk control vs terran and vs zerg, and as for beating stork/bisu, both seemed too easy as well.
I don't know where you get all these strange ideas. Why would I like GGPlay? There were no outstanding players in that Daum 07 OSL, and that was the only reason I felt he won it. His play was just good enough to beat his opponents, but not amazing. And regarding personality of progamers, well unless you can understand Korean or have met them in person, I don't think you have enough to go on to judge their personalities sometimes (some show their personalities very clearly even for foreigners, others are more subtle). A good example of when people misjudge personality is FBH. He showed a different side to him, aside from how he acts on stage, when he was on B.NET attack. Luckily FCUK subtitled that episode and many who previously hated him for his ceremonies became a fan, or at least felt differently about him, after watching the 3 videos here.
As for 'cutesy maneuvers,' I never said there was anything wrong with liking them. I eat that up with a spoon.. I love it too. It's partly what got me interested into watching pro SC in the first place (that video was probably one of the very first of said interesting maneuvers I had seen).
On July 12 2008 01:03 AdamaS wrote: Furthermore Zelniq, this thread here is an example of what I'm talking about. If you're going to judge the pro scene merely by statistics then you might as well go tell this person off for not appreciating the true beauty of professional BW: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=75011 - how dare people show their appreciation of BackHo based on things other than solely how good he is playing.
what the hell? dude you're doing it again, I never said anything about judging by statistics? god now you're just annoying me. please think more before getting all riled up over shit that didn't happen
I'm done reading and responding to your posts. what a waste of my time it was to write anything here. I should have known better after the OP was so obviously retarded
On July 12 2008 01:36 Polemarch wrote: That's true, nobody has attained true Godlike/Bonjwa status since Savior fell (or everybody else rose). But does that mean you don't like them, as fans?
Oh, I suppose I am a fan of jaedong, just not so much as I was with Savior.
On July 12 2008 01:43 Zelniq wrote: what the hell? dude you're doing it again, I never said anything about judging by statistics? god now you're just annoying me. please think more before getting all riled up over shit that didn't happen
Well, I apologise if you felt that way but I was responding to the demeaning tone I thought you were setting in your first reply.
I like Jaedong's aggressive play in all 3 MUs and the fact that he uses every damn zerg build available . Flash in TvP seems just like an other terran but with more confidant and greedy play based on the maps and the more common protoss builds there , TvT and TvZ Flash is not exactly amazing to judge him . I don't hate him thought . I like Mind as a terran more his builds seems more risky and actually are looking amazing .
On July 12 2008 01:12 SonuvBob wrote: July played in the race war (Savior/Jaedong/July).
I don't think anyone hated Jaedong, he was just less known (even though he was a monster in Proleague)
Thanks for that... I can't actually recall who it was that people were unhappy about Jae Dong being selected over. Do you remember? I'm tempted to say Silver but I don't think it was him.
It was supposed to be GoRush, and people were unhappy when it was switched to Jaedong.
I don't understand why people have such dislike for Jaedong, other than the fact that he beats people's favorite players. I mean, what else has he done? He didn't take July's spot in Race Wars as you claimed, he lost to Rock (is that a reason to hate him?), he 9 pooled and did a offensive Hatchery against Boxer (Boxer's own fault for walling in and going 14 CC)...
Personally, I like Jaedong and his play because as it stands now, he is pretty much the only powerhouse Zerg right now. It's incredible to see what he does differently from Luxury and any other Zerg and what separates number one from number two.
Flash's play is fun to watch too. From my understanding most of his hate came from him cheesing Bisu (evidently because his late game TvP was weak), but he has long since rectified that mistake.
I know what you mean by hating celebrities, but most of the time you hate these people because you see them on television with a really snide attitude or in a really bad movie. But Starcraft players are just guys in a booth, playing for your entertainment- you're not even looking at them most of the time. Players really don't do anything other than ceremonies or beating down your favorite players (inevitable and necessary for Brood War to grow) that could give you a good reason to hate them. Don't hate- just accept and enjoy Flash and Jaedong as the new generation of Starcraft, a new generation that's reaching toward the perfection of Brood War.
On July 12 2008 04:29 Sigrun wrote: I know what you mean by hating celebrities, but most of the time you hate these people because you see them on television with a really snide attitude or in a really bad movie. But Starcraft players are just guys in a booth, playing for your entertainment- you're not even looking at them most of the time. Players really don't do anything other than ceremonies or beating down your favorite players (inevitable and necessary for Brood War to grow) that could give you a good reason to hate them. Don't hate- just accept and enjoy Flash and Jaedong as the new generation of Starcraft, a new generation that's reaching toward the perfection of Brood War.
Good post, and good point about Jae Dong being far above Luxury.
I guess a better comparison would be like supporting your home sports team over the visiting team... It's not that you hate the opponents but you're annoyed if they beat your team.
I'd also say the way they've identified and fixed old weaknesses are inspirational, actually. Flash used to have a rather weak lategame and was forced to try to end games early. He was laughably bad against carriers. But now he's known as a macro terran, and has totally changed how the dynamics of PvT with his anti-carrier build and micro. Jaedong's transition from weak against protoss to utterly destroying Much 4-0 is also amazing. Laughing at their old weaknesses in the face of how completely they've been eradicated seems absurd to me.
That's true, it is quite impressive how much Flash has improved.
EPT
