EPTIgnorance is bliss. - Page 5
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MoNKeYSpanKeR
United States2869 Posts
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teamsolid
Canada3668 Posts
On May 04 2008 06:39 MoNKeYSpanKeR wrote: If it was a more random person, i would be inclined to agree that it was bias/ment to cause problems. Baezzi doesn't know Haji at all. To him, he's just a random Japanese who posted on TL a lot. I bet he didn't even know his nationality, until other Koreans who were offended by the post brought it to his attention. On May 01 2008 00:13 [some German guy] wrote: Sexual crimes including rape has been on a sharp rise among Jews in recent years. Perhaps the most shocking of them all surfaced today, where it was discovered that Jewish elementary school boys had been group raping underclassmen girls on a daily basis. Source: [some German site] ... Well the first part is unequivocally fucked up, and hopefully the Jewish people will try to remedy this situation which has clearly gotten out of hand (not just in this isolated case, but in general as well). I just replaced every instance of Korean with Jewish. I'm not Korean, but I can fully understand why any Korean (living in Korea) would be offended from reading that, coming from a Japanese person. It doesn't matter what you add next, the damage is already done. Then, what really set Baezzi off was when Live2Win unintentionally said this to him in Korean (due to poor grammar): "You don't speak too good of English. I don't think you understand this thread. I do want you to know that we ban people who offend other race." If Haji just wanted a neutral discussion, he should've presented the figure and added a single comment below it: This graph shows the # of reported rapes in Japan, Korea and the US. Discuss. All this still doesn't justify what Baezzi did after, but it's really not that hard at all to see why he would be pissed off. | ||
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Ecael
United States6703 Posts
On May 04 2008 06:45 teamsolid wrote: If Haji just wanted a neutral discussion, he should've presented the figure and added a single comment below it: This graph shows the # of reported rapes in Japan, Korea and the US. Discuss. Perhaps I understand English less than Baezzi, but if one should present that graph to me without the disclaimer and analysis that Haji typed up, I'd get a lot angrier and be less prone to discussion. To present a data set that looks completely biased without the kind of buffering that was written will generate a neutral discussion? There is some logic in that statement, possibly, but I completely cannot follow it. On May 03 2008 21:28 Jibba wrote: Still doesn't explain why he'd post an obviously inflammatory article, that even he thought was inaccurate. On May 03 2008 09:33 ._. wrote: I'm wondering what haji intended to do with that thread though..I mean he knows there's alot of koreans on the forum and him being Japanese doesn't help, and he posted up sources in Japanese. Stir up a decent conversation? It would just be like..wow..wtf _insert random sc joke + korean thing metaphor..lolol. Because he obviously had motivation to humiliate the Koreans after spending so much of his life live-reporting the very game that those Koreans follow religiously. I think it is some backlash from all the hard work. No, get over it, it was a piece of data that struck him as a potentially good discussion. In fact, it might've turned out to be pretty good if people took the time to read. If the OP is supposed to be held responsible for taking in as much precautions as possible but having the following posters ignore them, then we might as well as close down as a forum. Is the data biased? Who knows, he and I noted an obvious possible reporting bias with the Japanese dataset, does it mean that there is a reporting bias with the Korean or United States ones? Maybe, but no one took the time to discuss the matter and pursue the cultural based reporting bias of Japan before simply dismissing the whole thing as a piece of disinformation. Source validity is important, but being annoyed because of pride and dismissing an unfavorable information, true or not, is another matter. Are there more things he could've done? Possibly, but he sure put a lot of effort into making the post as unbiased as he could make it. Are people annoyed that the source is in Japanese? Ask for a translation, then, if he had the time to translate 2ch threads it isn't exactly inconceivable that he'd translate that. At that, even I'd translate it if one wants to risk the horrible translations of a non-native learning student. | ||
Jibba
United States22883 Posts
I've never defended Baezzi for a second. I think he's got allusions of grandeur and takes things way too seriously over the internet. Almost everything I've posted has either been criticizing the data or explaining Korean/Japanese angst. | ||
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Ecael
United States6703 Posts
EDIT - I in no way mean to suggest that you are defending Baezzi's behavior, if the previous post seemed that way, then my apologies. | ||
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Ecael
United States6703 Posts
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teamsolid
Canada3668 Posts
On May 04 2008 07:54 Ecael wrote: I honestly feel that he took a great amount of precautions to keep it as neutral as possible, even a faulty data through proper discussion will shed light on a discussion, and he was doing as much as could be done to keep things civil and in perspective. With the Tibet threads handled quite well, it isn't exactly illogical to think that the particular topic would've been fine. The Tibet threads were only handled well because there's a large amount of anti-Chinese sentiment at TL and in the minds of many Westerners. If you tried posting something like that on a Chinese forum, you'd probably start getting death threats by email or something. | ||
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
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MoNKeYSpanKeR
United States2869 Posts
[QUOTE]On May 04 2008 06:39 MoNKeYSpanKeR wrote: If it was a more random person, i would be inclined to agree that it was bias/ment to cause problems.[/QUOTE] Baezzi doesn't know Haji at all. To him, he's just a random Japanese who posted on TL a lot. I bet he didn't even know his nationality, until other Koreans who were offended by the post brought it to his attention. [quote] You have to have some level or respect for someone who is a former mod and who does so much for this site and who follows the scene so much, why would he dedicate such a large portion of his life to a game which is played by those who he hates. BaeZZi should think of that before taking such offense and getting so angry about nothng. [quote] [quote]On May 01 2008 00:13 [some German guy] wrote: Sexual crimes including rape has been on a sharp rise among Jews in recent years. Perhaps the most shocking of them all surfaced today, where it was discovered that Jewish elementary school boys had been group raping underclassmen girls on a daily basis. Source: [some German site] ... Well the first part is unequivocally fucked up, and hopefully the Jewish people will try to remedy this situation which has clearly gotten out of hand (not just in this isolated case, but in general as well).[/quote] I just replaced every instance of Korean with Jewish. I'm not Korean, but I can fully understand why any Korean (living in Korea) would be offended from reading that, coming from a Japanese person. It doesn't matter what you add next, the damage is already done. [/QUOTE] korea is a government, jewish is a people, theres a slight difference in it. Korea can do somethgn to try to prevent rape. Blaming the Jewish religion for rape and blaming the korean government are 2 very different things imo. A religion doesn't have much authority over that, especially compaired to a government. | ||
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1133 Posts
On May 04 2008 07:32 Ecael wrote: Perhaps I understand English less than Baezzi, but if one should present that graph to me without the disclaimer and analysis that Haji typed up, I'd get a lot angrier and be less prone to discussion. To present a data set that looks completely biased without the kind of buffering that was written will generate a neutral discussion? There is some logic in that statement, possibly, but I completely cannot follow it. Because he obviously had motivation to humiliate the Koreans after spending so much of his life live-reporting the very game that those Koreans follow religiously. I think it is some backlash from all the hard work. No, get over it, it was a piece of data that struck him as a potentially good discussion. In fact, it might've turned out to be pretty good if people took the time to read. If the OP is supposed to be held responsible for taking in as much precautions as possible but having the following posters ignore them, then we might as well as close down as a forum. Is the data biased? Who knows, he and I noted an obvious possible reporting bias with the Japanese dataset, does it mean that there is a reporting bias with the Korean or United States ones? Maybe, but no one took the time to discuss the matter and pursue the cultural based reporting bias of Japan before simply dismissing the whole thing as a piece of disinformation. Source validity is important, but being annoyed because of pride and dismissing an unfavorable information, true or not, is another matter. Are there more things he could've done? Possibly, but he sure put a lot of effort into making the post as unbiased as he could make it. Are people annoyed that the source is in Japanese? Ask for a translation, then, if he had the time to translate 2ch threads it isn't exactly inconceivable that he'd translate that. At that, even I'd translate it if one wants to risk the horrible translations of a non-native learning student. Get over what? What kind of silly first paragraph is that? The "lolol" is just an imaginary paraphrase that is cliche to the general forum. There are such sentiments that stretch beyond rationale and I really don't see what kind of discussion would be generated from such a thing like that. Yeah rape rates sure are interesting to look at, troublesome yes, but I don't see how something like that could NOT get erupted, I can imagine the discussion revolving around "wow terrible, we need to do this "a" change "b", and then what? Discussion is pointless on the matter, will Koreans on the forum suddenly open their eyes and do something about it? Will we be like, "Oh so that's how rapists are eh?" And its not all that intellectually stimulating either, maybe a crash course in statistics and cultural change but otherwise it'll just lead into some idiots taking it the wrong way and massing 11-12 pages of misunderstanding. | ||
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teamsolid
Canada3668 Posts
On May 04 2008 08:50 MoNKeYSpanKeR wrote: You have to have some level or respect for someone who is a former mod and who does so much for this site and who follows the scene so much, why would he dedicate such a large portion of his life to a game which is played by those who he hates. BaeZZi should think of that before taking such offense and getting so angry about nothng. Uh... even I have no idea who Haji is or what he's done specifically (I've only been a TL member for a year). Baezzi also came to TL.net only recently, so of course he has no idea who Haji is or what he's done. Also, being a long-time member of TL doesn't mean you can't also be a (closet) racist (I really doubt Haji is). On May 04 2008 08:50 MoNKeYSpanKeR wrote: korea is a government, jewish is a people, theres a slight difference in it. Korea can do somethgn to try to prevent rape. Blaming the Jewish religion for rape and blaming the korean government are 2 very different things imo. A religion doesn't have much authority over that, especially compaired to a government. That sounds like the CNN "apology"... But no, this article is referring to Korean PEOPLE, similar to the Jewish people. I replaced "Korean", which refers to Korean people with "Jewish" which refers to Jewish people. If you really want to argue the semantics, just replace "Korea" with "Poland" wherever appropriate and now you're talking about a nation in both cases. Either way, it's still talking about a specific group of people, who each suffered atrocities at the hands of Germans and Japanese respectively just a few decades ago. That's a direct attack on the morals of Koreans and has nothing to do with government. Elementary kids to be more specific. It's absolutely ridiculous to expect the government to step in and start lecturing: "Kids, please don't rape your classmates!", because it's against the law in the first place. Anyways, I guess most Westerners won't understand the issue, because the Korean/Chinese/Jap conflict is so foreign to them, until it's actually related to them in more familiar terms like the Holocaust. At least your blog title is accurate  | ||
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Ecael
United States6703 Posts
On May 04 2008 09:05 ._. wrote: Get over what? What kind of silly first paragraph is that? The "lolol" is just an imaginary paraphrase that is cliche to the general forum. There are such sentiments that stretch beyond rationale and I really don't see what kind of discussion would be generated from such a thing like that. Yeah rape rates sure are interesting to look at, troublesome yes, but I don't see how something like that could NOT get erupted, I can imagine the discussion revolving around "wow terrible, we need to do this "a" change "b", and then what? Discussion is pointless on the matter, will Koreans on the forum suddenly open their eyes and do something about it? Will we be like, "Oh so that's how rapists are eh?" And its not all that intellectually stimulating either, maybe a crash course in statistics and cultural change but otherwise it'll just lead into some idiots taking it the wrong way and massing 11-12 pages of misunderstanding. TL is affiliated heavily with the Asian populance, the international nature of the site already placed it very far from a Chinese forum, say. If one were to post that kind of information on a Korean forum, then that'd be tactless. On TL? That is pretty normal far as I am concerned. I suppose we simply have very different standards on the matter. To suggest that TL is more removed from the average Chinese than the average Korean feels off to me, even in spite of the primary objective of the site. Discussion in general, then, is useless if we were to follow that logic. As little that one discusses in an internet forum will ever come to fruitation. Furthermore, those who refuse to be educated will stay as such. Only those willing to absorb new information will gain ground. That is the very point of a forum as a discussion ground. While the information may be inflammatory in nature, it wasn't something that people can't handle. There was an initial flurry of replies without reading, but once those are addressed there were other issues being brought up. As for how intellectually stimulating the matter is, again, it is pending on the individual in question. While you certainly don't think so, I felt that something could've come out of it and it simply wasn't allowed to carry to a conclusion. | ||
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EmeraldSparks
United States1451 Posts
The Japanese are really bad at fessing up to their crimes. This might have something to do with this. I suspect: I suspect that the underreporting of rape in Japan, due to cultural differences, may be extremely high (even when compared to the already extremely high rates of unreported rapes elsewhere in the world.) Yeah, that's really all I have to say. | ||
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1133 Posts
See the gun control threads. See the drug control threads. See the few abortion threads. I think* there was even some ridiculous bruce lee would own in mma thread and went on for like 12434 pages. Not sure, was when I first started lurking in TL :> soooo long ago I think... They're all well written, but its basically an intellect taking a shot at another guy's e-ego and often its a pack of wolfs hunting down some uneducated sheep. (And some annoying guy always being sarcastic, talking in caps and being an attention whore but I forgot his name..think he's banned now though.) There is no clear conclusion in any of the threads and it ends abruptly when both parties simply lose interest and move on. I think the general forum is kind of pointless, but I find some entertainment in it and just a way to read off some thoughts of others but I take them with a grain of salt. When it comes to educating oneself here, the sources are not from books or encyclopedia, they're just some guys on the computer with some free time. Some discussion on topics are kind of fun to read too, but this particular rape topic..probably would get very messy. Considering many native Koreans are brought up on conservative values through education and culture and historically have had some antagonism about their past, and tl.net having a bit of history with some koreans lashing out a bit of nationalism, it was likely something would arise. The whole dad raping the girl threads were closed because they would not really garner any depth nor great discussion, when it probably could have some. Surely, we'd throw in psychology, stockholm syndrome, "lol Austrians" "that's fucked up" etc for discussion, but it'd probably be a repeat of the latter. Nothing positive would come out of it, just a briefly scarred mind and a scratched forehead. And I'm responding to you right now because this is a pretty fun discussion of the meaningfulness of posting on discussion threads as we are discussing right now, which I kind of find twisted in a way :< Don't feel like posting anymore though, too long of a post..brain hurting..think I'll go to sleep tt | ||
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Ecael
United States6703 Posts
It is a given though that such threads, included the one Haji came up with, would've ended abruptly either through a loss of interest or a series of concessions made. How much trouble it really would've stirred up discounting Baezzi, though, I cannot judge. I have lurked for a while and the Korean nationalistic sentiments did not feel particularly intense. Perhaps there were surges of such opinions during particular periods of time, but I must say I haven't kept up with TL long enough to see any. Indeed, the general forum is rather pointless, it is a kind of mindless entertainment to be derived from obtaining random, often useless knowledge that even require one's own effort to double check. However, the fact that they are free discussions offer an intellectual value simply by them being such. The process of observation and obtaining additional perspectives, after all, is usually a fruitful endeavour. The controversial nature of that particular thread serves the purpose of really bringing into the spotlight the multitudes of views rather than the kind of responses that would've been yielded from the dad-raping-girl thread. In the latter, we can toss in all sorts of scientific explanations and theories, but ultimately fielding a pretty small sample of views. With the former, we will have a more heated discussion that may escalate faster, but such doesn't necessarily command a lack of respect and thought overall, as the thread on the actual announcement by Baezzi showed after a few pages. The discussion of the meaningfulness of discussions and the enjoyment of such, lol, thinking along those lines does tend to give one headaches, I think I'll probably hit the sack myself  | ||
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MoNKeYSpanKeR
United States2869 Posts
[QUOTE]On May 04 2008 08:50 MoNKeYSpanKeR wrote: [QUOTE]On May 04 2008 08:50 MoNKeYSpanKeR wrote: [QUOTE]On May 04 2008 06:45 teamsolid wrote: [quote]On May 01 2008 00:13 [some German guy] wrote: Sexual crimes including rape has been on a sharp rise among Jews in recent years. Perhaps the most shocking of them all surfaced today, where it was discovered that Jewish elementary school boys had been group raping underclassmen girls on a daily basis. Source: [some German site] ... Well the first part is unequivocally fucked up, and hopefully the Jewish people will try to remedy this situation which has clearly gotten out of hand (not just in this isolated case, but in general as well).[/quote] I just replaced every instance of Korean with Jewish. I'm not Korean, but I can fully understand why any Korean (living in Korea) would be offended from reading that, coming from a Japanese person. It doesn't matter what you add next, the damage is already done. [/QUOTE] korea is a government, jewish is a people, theres a slight difference in it. Korea can do somethgn to try to prevent rape. Blaming the Jewish religion for rape and blaming the korean government are 2 very different things imo. A religion doesn't have much authority over that, especially compaired to a government.[/QUOTE] That sounds like the CNN "apology"... But no, this article is referring to Korean PEOPLE, similar to the Jewish people. I replaced "Korean", which refers to Korean people with "Jewish" which refers to Jewish people. If you really want to argue the semantics, just replace "Korea" with "Poland" wherever appropriate and now you're talking about a nation in both cases. Either way, it's still talking about a specific group of people, who each suffered atrocities at the hands of Germans and Japanese respectively just a few decades ago. That's a direct attack on the morals of Koreans and has nothing to do with government. Elementary kids to be more specific. It's absolutely ridiculous to expect the government to step in and start lecturing: "Kids, please don't rape your classmates!", because it's against the law in the first place. Anyways, I guess most Westerners won't understand the issue, because the Korean/Chinese/Jap conflict is so foreign to them, until it's actually related to them in more familiar terms like the Holocaust. At least your blog title is accurate [/QUOTE]I was waiting for someone to crack the blog title is accurate joke for a while now. Anyway, i didn't say i expect the korean government to lecture little kids, i mean i doubt ALL the rapes are being done by toddlers -_- But when you said replace jews with polish i consider that more legitimate for the reasons i stated, as to the CNN apology i have no idea what your talking about, i can assume its a reference to CNN apologizing to China, although i never heard the apology. I'm not saying rape is like drugs and to give seminars, lectures, and to teach classes would stop it. That would be a stupid waste of money. Also i don't think their government can really be blamed for it, i beleive their culture has an impact on their mentality and the way they are socially leads to higher rape rates. If you watch the way clubs are in America it's practically everyone raping eachother atmosphere, from what i have heard (never experienced) koreans are more shy and i would summzie arguably more creative based on the culture/society of japan/korea vs USA. I just think the fact that they have the issue of sex so pushed to the side and everything leads up to some pent up sexual agression, for lack of a better term. Like the SexSexPussyHair thing, everyone in the US would of overlooked that as retarded thing to say, less gross then retarded. Koreans were shocked for whatever reason i can't imagine. I mean having to keep all that bottled up i would imagine it creates a certain adam and eve forbidden fruit-ish thing. | ||
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MoNKeYSpanKeR
United States2869 Posts
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micronesia
United States24733 Posts
On May 05 2008 13:52 MoNKeYSpanKeR wrote: wow i messed up quotes again I know it's your blog, but this really didn't warrant a new post | ||
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MoNKeYSpanKeR
United States2869 Posts
On May 05 2008 13:53 micronesia wrote: I know it's your blog, but this really didn't warrant a new post shh dont point out obvious. | ||
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Track
United States217 Posts
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