EPTIgnorance is bliss. - Page 4
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MoNKeYSpanKeR
United States2869 Posts
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.MistiK
Netherlands347 Posts
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
MoNKeY, I suggest if you're interested in real history, you stop watching the History Channel as well. It's skewed pop-fiction history unless you're interested in hearing about HITLERZ SUPERWEAPeNZ that had zero impact on the war. Prussia had been an aggressive military state since the 3 Prussian wars in the 1860s and 70s, the most shocking of which was the Franco-Prussian war which everyone expected France to win. None of these were Civil War/WWI type bloodbaths, they were all decisive Napoleonic-type victories and the truth is that most people expected WWI to turn out the same way, except a few people like Lord Kitchener. But the important part is everyone DID expect war between France and Germany, and for them it didn't begin as a political conflict. Military leaders pushed political leaders into mobilization for the sake of having the first attack ready so they'd have a better chance of winning the inevitable, short war. After all, aggressors always had the advantage in the Prussian wars, so neither side wanted to go 2nd. Austria and Serbia are a whole other issue, but really WWI wasn't about them. It was about the two army superpowers settling the score in quick fashion. | ||
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ChkChk.Boom
United States140 Posts
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wesbrown
United States31 Posts
On May 02 2008 20:18 Jibba wrote: wesbrown, you're bringing up people who have extremely little connection to what actually happened. American born Jews and Chinese have very little in common with Polish Jews or those who grew up in Nanjing, and if you asked the latter two, they would still be upset about it. There's a huge difference when you live across the world from where the events took place. It's unlikely they would believe all Germans are evil but like someone else pointed out, Germany cleaned itself up but racism is still alive and well in the Japanese government/businesses/etc. My point was three-fold: 1) Hating a people for what their ancestors did is more or less irrational. Being upset about atrocities is reasonable; holding a grudge against a subset of the human population based only on nationalistic criteria or actions of a dying/dead generation isn't. 2) "There's a huge difference when you live across the world from where the events took place." Exactly. Suppose that someone grows up in, say, Korea and hates the Japanese, whereas if that person grew up in the United States he wouldn't have any negative opinions of the Japanese. Same person, entirely different prejudices/beliefs. Quite obviously, prejudice is not genetic but learned (in the nature vs. nurture debate, prejudice falls under nurture). A person raised outside of a society (or even household) that condones this type of racism/systematic hatred is much more likely to be forgiving. My point is that people can forgive others for atrocities in the past and be able to interact with a previously abusive people. 3) Younger generations tend to be more forgiving. (Most of the people I referenced were under 30.) I view this as an optimistic point because it means we can expect the type of hatred we've been discussing to die out eventually, albeit slowly. Other people in this thread have told of young Koreans who don't hate the Japanese. I'm tempted to say that there must be a relatively large segment of the native Korean youth who are much more passive concerning the Japanese than their parents. (I can't say this for sure because I don't know, but I would expect it probabilistically.) Yes, it is true that many of the people with whom I spoke were removed from the events, but not all of them. Many of the American-born Chinese and Korean people I mentioned were second-generation (their parents were born and raised in an Asian country and immigrated in their adulthood), so they may be removed physically but not entirely socially. As far as the Jews go, at least a quarter of the Jewish people on my hall have ties to Poland. (Generally, they have family still in the country.) I really feel that I didn't pick bad examples for the points I was trying to get across. My grandfather fought in WWII and harbored resentful feelings for the Japanese people until he died. I understand his feelings, but it doesn't mean I share them; to do so would to be irrational. Essentially, I can understand why victims of atrocities would still be upset and resentful--they should be. However, I cannot condone younger generations who are just as removed (temporally) as many of the people I mentioned who have forgiven. Temporal location > physical location, or at least it should be. (Also, I was mostly attempting to rebut blanket statements that I recognized to be false or misleading in some form. I wasn't trying to cover every base.) Edit: On May 03 2008 01:31 ChkChk.Boom wrote: My grandfather was part of the "Death March" in the Philippines during WW2. My dad told me one time that my grandfather doesn't buy anything Japanese and I asked him why. He told me to ask my grandfather. So I go ask my grandfather, and what I got were his "war stories" which were filled with stories about being deprived of food, tortured, and various other atrocities committed by their Japanese guards. I can see why he doesn't like the Japanese, but I can't comprehend why the younger generation would hold such grudges. I guess I would attribute it to their upbringing, as children do as their parents do. Personally, I don't hate the Japanese; I love watching anime and thank God for sushi and Japanese cars, or else i'd be broke at the gas pumps. Jesus this is my longest post. /end post Exactly. | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
You're both idiots. | ||
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
Yes, it is true that many of the people with whom I spoke were removed from the events, but not all of them. Many of the American-born Chinese and Korean people I mentioned were second-generation (their parents were born and raised in an Asian country and immigrated in their adulthood), so they may be removed physically but not entirely socially. As far as the Jews go, at least a quarter of the Jewish people on my hall have ties to Poland. (Generally, they have family still in the country.) I really feel that I didn't pick bad examples for the points I was trying to get across. Being physically removed is a huge part of the experience, and I don't think they are very good examples. I'm a second generation Japanese American and all of my Jewish great grandmother's brothers and sisters were killed in Poland during the war, and I have almost zero heritage-tied emotional connection to any of the events because I live in Michigan and not in Warsaw or Hiroshima, and my great grandmother and Japanese grandmother are not large parts of my life. What Koreans and Chinese feel is an essentialist thing, that neither I nor your friends can understand because we didn't grow up surrounded by it. And then you add on top of it the current racism and you get closer to what crazy Baezzi feels. And calling them ancestors is a bit misleading. We're talking about current grandparents who went around raping and torturing people. | ||
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.MistiK
Netherlands347 Posts
On May 03 2008 02:37 Jibba wrote: We're talking about current grandparents who went around raping and torturing people. That thought is so fucked up. I wonder what I'd think/do if my grandfather was a rapist. | ||
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wesbrown
United States31 Posts
On May 03 2008 02:37 Jibba wrote: What Koreans and Chinese feel is an essentialist thing, that neither I nor your friends can understand because we didn't grow up surrounded by it. And then you add on top of it the current racism and you get closer to what crazy Baezzi feels. I agree with you: it's not something that I nor anyone outside of the culture can understand. This makes the cultural hate/racism/etc. more irrational because it depends on context. Moreover, not everyone in that culture feels the same way. In this thread, there have been people who have said that they don't harbor negative feelings for the Japanese. It appears that Korean culture, at least in some areas, is changing to match historical precedents (letting hate and resentment subside). This was more of what I was attempting to get across. And calling them ancestors is a bit misleading. We're talking about current grandparents who went around raping and torturing people. I was attempting to make a point on a longer historical scale because I had given examples ranging over a few centuries. I used 'ancestors' more to refer to the general idea of a non-current generation, not to the Korean-Japanese dynamic. In that particular situation, I fully understand a hatred or resentment of the older generations by newer generations, but I still maintain that a 10-year-old Korean child should not hate a 10-year-old Japanese child because he is Japanese. (Similarly, I understand older generations of blacks resenting older generations of whites for the pre-Civil Rights era, but I cannot see a good reason for another (e.g., black) teen to hate me only because I am white.) In the context of Korean-Japanese relations, using 'ancestors' probably is a bit misleading. This was an accident on my part; I'm sorry if I muddled my point because of my wording. Nonetheless, I still maintain that hating an entire people due to the actions of some members of a dying generation is irrational. I cannot condone judging someone based on the actions of another person, regardless of whether or not some cultures accept this reasoning. | ||
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
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MoNKeYSpanKeR
United States2869 Posts
On May 03 2008 02:09 {88}iNcontroL wrote: I stopped at "ww2 was caused by pride." You're both idiots. congrats on being the SECOND!! person to say that. there goes your originallity, bitch. also i don't actually beleive that, i said it more so to make a point that pride is a stupid and negative thing. I don't beleive its the cause of ww2 for fucks sake. and read rest of the thread before posting you tool, there is a lot more about it. | ||
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MoNKeYSpanKeR
United States2869 Posts
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._.
1133 Posts
Its even more disturbing about Japanese insight at rape and minorities, doesn't it have some really disturbing connotations with that? Of course this does not apply to all, but there is still a good few who hold this to be true. Of course, this Korean here took it a little more and ahead, but its such a touchy issue, sorta like mentioning planes crashing to a 9/11 victim. I'm wondering what haji intended to do with that thread though..I mean he knows there's alot of koreans on the forum and him being Japanese doesn't help, and he posted up sources in Japanese. Stir up a decent conversation? It would just be like..wow..wtf _insert random sc joke + korean thing metaphor..lolol. | ||
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On May 03 2008 09:33 ._. wrote: I'm wondering what haji intended to do with that thread though..I mean he knows there's alot of koreans on the forum and him being Japanese doesn't help, and he posted up sources in Japanese. Stir up a decent conversation? It would just be like..wow..wtf _insert random sc joke + korean thing metaphor..lolol. Good point, I really wonder. The report didn't even seem trustworthy, because I simply cannot believe rape levels are that low in Japan. | ||
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MoNKeYSpanKeR
United States2869 Posts
If anything he insults the japanese more so then the koreans, but some of you don't focus on that fact and jump strait to him attacking korea. Which i don't think he was. | ||
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MoNKeYSpanKeR
United States2869 Posts
But he found out haji was japanese and assumed it was an attack, which is kind of ignroant. It's basically following the idea that because hes japanese then its hateful writing, but if he was italian or something then it's just informative. I guess theres some level of logic there, like it could be anti korean japanese propaganda, but at the same time i think it's stupid to presume the worst in someone off their nationality. Also take into account haji is a japanese-american not a japanese man living in japan. He has little more reason then i do to be bias against koreans. Also keep in mind he plays a big part in this site which is all about the korean progaming scene and if you ask him what is his favorite progamer is i doubt he will say "I love boxer, i just wish he wasn't a fucking gook" or something, no he would probably have something similar to what HonestTea said about sAviOr, or something you would read in a TL:FE, not something hate filled. Seriously, if you want to take nationality into it, take into account his personality and his upbringing and what fucking site your on for christs sake. | ||
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
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teamsolid
Canada3668 Posts
On May 03 2008 21:23 MoNKeYSpanKeR wrote: Also if it wasn't posted by someone who was japanese, i doubt anyone would of cared. As i got my friend to admit. If he didn't know haji was japanese he said he would of read it without bias, and wouldn't think twice of the posters nationality and just considered it informative and thought provoking. But he found out haji was japanese and assumed it was an attack, which is kind of ignroant. It's basically following the idea that because hes japanese then its hateful writing, but if he was italian or something then it's just informative. I guess theres some level of logic there, like it could be anti korean japanese propaganda, but at the same time i think it's stupid to presume the worst in someone off their nationality. Also take into account haji is a japanese-american not a japanese man living in japan. He has little more reason then i do to be bias against koreans. Also keep in mind he plays a big part in this site which is all about the korean progaming scene and if you ask him what is his favorite progamer is i doubt he will say "I love boxer, i just wish he wasn't a fucking gook" or something, no he would probably have something similar to what HonestTea said about sAviOr, or something you would read in a TL:FE, not something hate filled. Seriously, if you want to take nationality into it, take into account his personality and his upbringing and what fucking site your on for christs sake. If a German poster randomly posts a (biased) article from a German website that "claims" Jewish people are more likely to be thieves/rapists than Germans, how do you think a Jewish person would feel reading it? | ||
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MoNKeYSpanKeR
United States2869 Posts
On May 03 2008 21:28 Jibba wrote: Still doesn't explain why he'd post an obviously inflammatory article, that even he thought was inaccurate. Just the statisitics were questionable, not the story about the 50-100 rape incidents in the school, the other stuff about korea vs usa vs japan rates were just extra info to create more discussion. | ||
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MoNKeYSpanKeR
United States2869 Posts
On May 04 2008 05:00 teamsolid wrote: If a German poster randomly posts a (biased) article from a German website that "claims" Jewish people are more likely to be thieves/rapists than Germans, how do you think a Jewish person would feel reading it? Like i said before, i would take into account who the poster is aswel and his history. If you read what haji says i doubt you can conclude hes some anti korean nutcase. | ||
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