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On February 02 2008 06:46 Salv wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2008 05:57 Zherak wrote:
PvZ:
Standard FE opening, directly into 2StarGate Corsair, directly into mass Carrier.
Never spend gas on anything but StarGates, Air-grades, 8 Corsairs and Carriers.
Use excess minerals to Cannon the FE heavily.
Eventually try to sneak-cannon a new base or seize islands. Get Disruption Web as needed.
Not getting the Carrier-build busted is a huge advantage. The larger window you get before Defilers, the better. Every investment in Lurkers, Lings and Spores is win.
Works on B-level Iccup, fun build to know.
PvT:
1 Gate Range-goon directly into 2StarGate Carrier off one base. How would this work once the Zerg built hydralisks? You wouldn't have enough carriers.
9 out of 10 B-level Zergs beg to differ.
Even if Zerg gets a mighty horde of Hydralisks (which takes more time than you think), he will be hard pressed to defend expansions and main and prevent you from expanding. Surprisingly soon, a Protoss can field a 6 Carrier fleet from 2 geysers, which keeps growing.
I would post some replays, but I hate uploading files to weird servers.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
sair/goon PvT !!
sair/reav PvP !!
mass goon timing push PvZ !!
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8751 Posts
Chill and Bond(i2) : I like it so I'll be trying it soon.
Aphelion: I'm not too confident in your theory. Offensive cannons are supposed to stop zerg expansion? How can I defend my 3rd Nexus before the cannons finish? It seems like 6-8 lings can shutdown any attempt I have at making a 3rd Nexus or of cannoning his expansions. I think this gameplan may be possible in very specific situations, like if I see an opportunity to set up these cannons, but I don't think I can go into a game with this gameplan.
Zherak: Your PvZ Carrier strategy just doesn't add up against a Zerg taking 3-4 bases early on and making Hydras. I've made PvZ Carriers on Arcadia by starting out with FE, going corsair/reaver, taking my min-only and an island, then going Carrier. It would work if the corsair/reaver stage did sufficient damage and then the Carriers were only good with reaver support. Comparing your faster but weaker Carrier strategy to that, and also comparing it to a simple corsair/reaver strat, I fail to see how it could be any better. For PvT Carrier from one base, I see no reason why this would work and you give no reason. It's very common among the pros to get Carriers from 2 bases, only after some advantage has been gained. There are a bunch of reasons why that way works better than straight off 1 base.
Anyway, I'd be happy to watch some replays of you beating B rank iCCup players with Carriers so I can see what is happening. If I think the Zergs are playing intelligently and well, and not losing just because they don't know any better, then I'll try it out on much better Zergs.
IntoTheWow: I like that and I think it has been done a bit on Azalea, but I'd like to try it in some other situations. I don't think double robo would be good though. I'll try it with 1 robo unless I'm doing a bit slower once I've got a 3rd Nexus.
Kingsp4de20: I have already done strategies like that and they are absolutely not worth it.
stenole: I will try your strategy but I don't have much confidence in it  I can probably make it work against newbies but I think more skilled players can own it. And if it does have a decent success rate, it's still risky and I think it would only end up useful for disadvantageous maps or against opponents significantly more skilled than me.
UbRi: Your idea won't work because there won't be enough zealots and dragoons. I have done 2zeal + 1goon drop followed by 2zeal + 1reaver drop and the Terran can just kill all the zeals/goons/reavers. If he can't kill them all, then he's dead anyway. Why would you target turrets if you can kill his units? If you can't kill his units, why would you target his turret just to give safe passage to the next shuttle full of units that are going to die?
Dexxus: There's no point in making a block if you have no cannons behind it. The lings will just kill the gateway or the shield battery. The shield battery can't block the same as a forge anyway. Also, as you begin to point out, the cannons are useful for more than just that initial setting up of the FE. Also, a build order of pylon, forge, nexus, cannon will give better econ than a gateway battery nexus build.
freelander: I might try the dweb in PvT like Asuka did. But, of course, it's already been done and nobody did it again after so many years, so I suspect that good players found reasons why it's not a good idea.
Grinq: I'm not going sair/reav PvP lol. The sair/goon PvT is already covered and I said I'll try it. I have seen a great "mass goon" strategy in Much vs Yarnc @ Katrina today that I think I'm gonna work with. But that's not quite theorycrafting, just copying and deepending my understanding.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
On a more serious note, I've recently played 14 nex -> 2 gate goon -> scout/reaver PvT on Nemesis (although vs a really crap terran) where I've almost won the opening phase (managed to get back into the game with carriers). The point is in stacking scouts like you would do with mutas (manner pylon a probe behind your minline) and harassing with them. If terran is stationary, make golies pursue the scouts into reaver scarabs, if he doesn't have enough AA, kill tanks with scouts. That's in theory. I guess it's not that viable on maps where 12-14 nex PvT is already a huge risk, but looks like it could actually work as a surprise buid.
12-14 nex is there to get a REALLY guick geyser #2. 2 gate goon means the appropriate amount of ranged goons to fend off any aggro before you get scouts.
Also the same could be viable with Carrier/Reaver but I think that is less probable as carriers take a load of time to build up power, unlike scouts who are useful even in small numbers, carriers are crap until there's at least 5 of them.
Oh, and somehow abuse the fact that the path between a forge and a citadel of adun (built on near tiles, without a 1 tile gap, citadel to the right of forge) is passable for all units in the game except ultralisk.
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United States20665 Posts
I know this isn't exactly novel, but Stove in modern era?
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instead of going dt sair, go mass scout with upgrade on speed, and mass dt vs zerg. Ovies pop faster : )
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8751 Posts
On February 02 2008 09:54 RtS)Night[Mare wrote:
instead of going dt sair, go mass scout with upgrade on speed, and mass dt vs zerg. Ovies pop faster : )
no defense against scourge
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
Speed scouts can pick scourge like muta does. In theory ^^.
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4 replays of PvZ 2-base Carrier.
Some of these opponents play somewhat weak, but part of it is them facing a strategy they haven't countered 1236236 times. G5.rep is a somewhat decent game.
[url blocked]
1 replay of PvZ 2-base Carrier.
[url blocked]
EDIT2: 1 replay of PvZ 2-base Carrier versus 12pool speedlings (?) -> 3 Hatch Hydra Cannon break:
[url blocked]
EDIT: No FE->2StarGate Scout vs Zerg is fun too. Scouts don't cost that much gas.
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This isn't exactly what you requested... but you can ignore it if you want.
It's a game less than 10 minutes long on tau cross. PvZ where zerg does that mass 6/7 hatch hydra build vs a protoss FE and i'm not a nub or anything but I find it really difficult to counter. What strategy would you use against this build?
If you go FE you can't really stop them from doing it since you have no early pressure so your only choice is to somehow mass off 2 base for a while and move out?
http://download.yousendit.com/184D7D4059FD4CD2
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ok thanks man
of course it didn't get mainstream, but it can be used as a long term cheese or something. good luck 
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Quick question, why don't people recall on top of tank lines? Is it just not effective because the units all teleporting in at the same time usually gets blasted away or just that stasis more efficient? It seems like if they have a dozen tanks, it's better to recall on top of half of them instead of stasising half.
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I was trying to figure out a way for scouts to be useful...
I had an idea for PvP.. The situation, which might be the tricky part, is when you have reason to expect they will go for a quick reaver harass build. Maybe 12/3 or 6/9 on Python? Basically the idea would be for a standard tech build to start, but then instead of going robo, getting a stargate and then a scout. Kindof a version of the TvP quick wraith build... you place the scout in a nice spot to catch his incoming shuttle and snipe it while it's not over land. That's pretty much the point of it.. then I guess you could harass their probes with a scout or two and when they bring goons back you pressure the front with your goons, etc. I figure stargate/scout are about the same cost/time as robo/support/shuttle/reaver, right? The main problem, of course, is that they could easily get obs first and scout you out. Maybe hide the stargate? What do you think?
The other thought I had which is even less fleshed out is PvT.. At a point when you would go carriers, instead build scouts and get speed upgrade for them. The idea being quick hit and run tactics.. might work well on something like Katrina where late game their bases will be very spread out and with convoluted walking paths goliaths would never be able to catch up to them.
I could be smoking crack, but that's what this blog thread is for, right?
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On February 02 2008 10:45 f10esqftw wrote:
I was trying to figure out a way for scouts to be useful...
I had an idea for PvP.. The situation, which might be the tricky part, is when you have reason to expect they will go for a quick reaver harass build. Maybe 12/3 or 6/9 on Python? Basically the idea would be for a standard tech build to start, but then instead of going robo, getting a stargate and then a scout. Kindof a version of the TvP quick wraith build... you place the scout in a nice spot to catch his incoming shuttle and snipe it while it's not over land. That's pretty much the point of it.. then I guess you could harass their probes with a scout or two and when they bring goons back you pressure the front with your goons, etc. I figure stargate/scout are about the same cost/time as robo/support/shuttle/reaver, right? The main problem, of course, is that they could easily get obs first and scout you out. Maybe hide the stargate? What do you think?
The other thought I had which is even less fleshed out is PvT.. At a point when you would go carriers, instead build scouts and get speed upgrade for them. The idea being quick hit and run tactics.. might work well on something like Katrina where late game their bases will be very spread out and with convoluted walking paths goliaths would never be able to catch up to them.
I could be smoking crack, but that's what this blog thread is for, right?
The first one:
IMO it's not efficient in any way. You can't scout very well, you are unprotected to DTs (!! important).
In theory IF they didn't spot your awaiting scout and you do a perfect micro and you kill the filled shuttle MAYBE it can be worth it.. The scouts can't be used to harass. A single goon negate your whole harassment.
Second:
This could work IMO, but the scouts would be expensive as hell and the terran could use his VALKYRIES (lol)
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late game mind-control tvp.
lots of zealots, the tanks shouldnt auto target the DAs right?
If you could find a quick 4th gas (say on longinus) you should be able to get a zealot heavy army, enough dragoons to keep you from insta death and about 12 das to take out the tanks....maybe
but hey
if you do mc control properly the TANKS WILL ATTACK THEMSELVES
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I saw something sick in a highlight video of some clan where the toss, rather than use zeal bombs vs clumped tanks, hallucinated the sieged tanks instead so that mines ran into the hallucinations and rizzaped the tank line <3
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In PvZ, on some two player map (or another map if you find them first), Forge FE at their natural expansion. Gotta send your probe out really early, and pray to god it doesn't get scouted. Risky as hell, but if you successfully get up your FE, thats game.
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On February 02 2008 17:07 Sentenal wrote:
In PvZ, on some two player map (or another map if you find them first), Forge FE at their natural expansion. Gotta send your probe out really early, and pray to god it doesn't get scouted. Risky as hell, but if you successfully get up your FE, thats game.
I don't think this works.
- 9 pool is too fast for your cannons, and he will see them on his way out
- 12 pool, I don't really know about, but he should be able to stop with Drones if he spots it
- 12 hatch expansion, he will see your Cannons and kill them with Drones (takes 2 Drones per Cannon, I think?)
And it is really difficult for him not to find your Cannons with either Overlords, expanding Drones, scouting drones or fast lings.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Hey nony,
One thing i've been doing against some of more noober terran friends is incorporating mind control into the midgame, namely the use of mind control to take control of a tank near mines and pulls mines in (and watch the impending boom). If you could work it in some how it would be awesome <3
oh and perhaps you could mix in stacked carriers vs terran/stacked sairs vs zerg? (purposely trap a probe and use it as a stacking trick ala the muta trick)
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EPT
