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8748 Posts
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Calgary25978 Posts
Sweet, listening while at work now but I'll sync it later and rewatch. Hopefully you're sober this time :D
Game sounded exciting even though I haven't seen it, just heard it :D
Relistening now...
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Great commentary and analysis! Thanks for posting.
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going to listen once i finish the vods, thanks.
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it'd be hotter if you pronounced it jay dong instead of jy dong
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Thanks a lot bro. I like your vods and commentaries.
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8748 Posts
ah i did not know the pronunciation... i'll change to jay in the future
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bisu sux after mind pwned him in finals of MSL
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I agree completely with bisu not moving out sooner to try to do some real structural damage to the zerg with his large ground army and instead just harassing and turtling. Since Bisu did not attempt to come out with his main army until 19 minutes into the game, Jaedong rebuilt everything and more and had more than enough units to match Bisu when he did come out. With Jaedong's 6 hatcheries he could replace drones very quickly and since none of his hatcheries were killed until much later he really didn't take any major damage that he could not recover from. But also it was good on Jaedong's part to set up that lurker contain at that ramp which was also aided by the landscape ofc. I honestly think that group of zealots was sent out because Bisu was frustrated with not being able to get up the ramp and since he had to do something he mind as well just send the group of zealots he was attacking the hydras out to try to take some advantage but a group of zealots for a single hatchery and some drones was really not worth it imo since he really needed them to protect his main army of mosty goons and templars later on. So in a sense, Bisu couldn't multi-task as better as Jaedong and lost because of it. Almost every encounter they had after Jaedong's failed drop, Bisu ended up wasting more than Jaedong and eventually just couldn't keep up.
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Very nice commentary. Nice to know a little more about what a toss thinks during zvp.
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On January 09 2008 03:31 zulu_nation8 wrote:
I agree completely with bisu not moving out sooner to try to do some real structural damage to the zerg with his large ground army and instead just harassing and turtling. Since Bisu did not attempt to come out with his main army until 19 minutes into the game, Jaedong rebuilt everything and more and had more than enough units to match Bisu when he did come out. With Jaedong's 6 hatcheries he could replace drones very quickly and since none of his hatcheries were killed until much later he really didn't take any major damage that he could not recover from. But also it was good on Jaedong's part to set up that lurker contain at that ramp which was also aided by the landscape ofc. I honestly think that group of zealots was sent out because Bisu was frustrated with not being able to get up the ramp and since he had to do something he mind as well just send the group of zealots he was attacking the hydras out to try to take some advantage but a group of zealots for a single hatchery and some drones was really not worth it imo since he really needed them to protect his main army of mosty goons and templars later on. So in a sense, Bisu couldn't multi-task as better as Jaedong and lost because of it. Almost every encounter they had after Jaedong's failed drop, Bisu ended up wasting more than Jaedong and eventually just couldn't keep up.
I disagree with your interpretation of Bisu's choice to trade a group of Zealots for a hatchery. At that point in the game, Bisu had a dominating army and could've moved out but chose not to. I think he made the error of feeling comfortable with just harassing because he had been so effective all game long at it. You take that error of not moving out soon enough, along with Jaedong's drop in Bisu's main, further delaying the move out, and all of the sudden Jaedong has enough time and money to raise a sizeable army that now has defilers and cracklings.
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i think he didn't move out because he didn't have time to deal with the lurker contain rather than because he felt comfortable, I think he knows staying in base for 20 minutes is too long
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Have a re-look at the game, at about the 19:15 mark, and look at the "contain" outside of Bisu's expo, right when he decides to take a control group of zealots along the upper part of the map. It looks to me like Bisu could move out. About 10 seconds prior to this, Jaedong lost quite a few Hydralisks attacking Bisu's "semi-island" expo, and Bisu stopped drones from mining at Jaedong's natural with a High Templar, killing a handful of drones and causing the rest to flee. I could be missing something though.
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he could move out and he did after he lost those zealots, i cant find the part where he loses hydras except at 17:11 when he loses like 4 lings to the cannons at that expo but decided not to attack, then he lost a couple hydras trying to stop top left and thats right before bisu attacked with zealots only, it wasn't until jaedong send units back to kill zealots and then put units into overlords that that bisu tried to come out, and right when he did the drop came
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and when bisu did try to finally break out he was barely able to because his army with a few goons and templars, if jaedong did not drop he probably couldve destroyed all of it
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Calgary25978 Posts
I can't explain to myself how Jaedong even got ahead. Every little harassment that Bisu did netted an advantage. He was at even bases for the majority of the game with tons of workers. He invested a bit into static defense, but it traded with Jaedong's drop so that isn't an issue.
You say he lost because he didn't move out quick enough, and I agree, but I can't explain to myself why this happened. Typically Protoss is behind in bases, and he needs to mvoe out in order to prevent being outmacroed in the late game, but that didn't happen in this case. Jaedong didn't display any particularly game-breaking micro in any battle, so that wasn't it. I wouldn't imagine that Jaedong had better macro than Bisu, so I doubt Bisu was saving minerals. Bisu's army was a little Dragoon heavy, but not so much that it should cause him to lose.
Both players start even. The opening builds were even. Bisu killed a lot of workers with harassment (+BISU). They were even bases (+BISU). Jaedong had that midgame drop that killed a few Gatways and a few more units that it should have, but also had the drop on 6 that pretty much failed (+JAEDONG, +BISU).
How does Jaedong come out ahead? I didn't see the upgrades, but I doubt that was much of a factor. Is the terrain on the map imbalanced? I really am quite confused, Bisu had a huge army and Jaedong's army seemed to be dwindling in the midgame, and suddenly late game Bisu cannot keep up, despite being even based. If I'm Protoss and I'm even based with Zerg, and every time I do a harass I'm killing more than I'm losing, there should be no incentive for me to move out, I should only get farther ahead by turtling and harassing until Zerg decides to expand again. I can't explain to myself how this happened, I'll have to watch the VOD again.
Anways great commentary Nony; It taught me a lot of overarcing game concepts, as well as little things (why Jaedong buried the Dronse at his main but not his second expansion against Reaver drops). Thanks.
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I think it was the "lots of stuff" at jaedongs mineral only.
Many hatcheries allows jaedong to replenish drones as fast as he wants. Even if he drops a single ht and kills say 7 drones, that is 250 minerals and 150 gas for toss, and 350 mins for zerg. Zerg is happy. Normally the extra damage would be the 7 larva that couldn't go to army, and the toss would win on the exchange, but with Jaedongs many hatcheries, that was not an issue. So in my opinion, all the harassment on the mineral lines simply costed more than he got for it, due to the many hatcheries.
And I guess the triple evo chamber helped him in the later battles.
I now ralise that this is exactly what zulu said as well... oops. 
Anyway, great commentary, and asolutely amazing game! let's try to remember this all the way to "best games 2008" threads in 12 months.  If we are not busy with sc2 by then...
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yea but, tbh jaedong shouldve been producing from at least 8 hatcheries with that many bases that early but he only had 6 and really 5 producing units for most of the game but he still managed to get that much stuff and bisu got so little for some reason
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EPT
Bisu < Blue Storm > 
Jaedong
