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Alright, poetry is cancelled.
Upon watching the movie Dogma again, this time in English, I couldn’t help but rethink my views on religion. It’s always been a special topic to me, mainly because I don’t claim to acknowledge any particular belief, so I am more or less still looking for my spiritual side.
I was not raised religious, my Mom quit church in order to save the church tax, which is ridiculous, but then again, I am not particularly fond of the Catholic or the Protestant church. Actually Christianity as a whole is not really appealing to me.
Now, we have had discussions about religion in the General forum almost every other week, I am aware of that, but I just wanted to share my rather unique views on this matter in my blog, maybe someone might want to discuss them or laugh at me or whatever. After all I am not supposed to care since it is my mind and I can think whatever the fuck I want.
I always thought of myself as an atheist, but as of late I am not too sure about that anymore. I have read a small booklet from the Jehova’s Witnesses titled “Is there a God that cares about us?”, which was delightfully not manipulative at all and tried embracing science instead of refusing obvious evidence. It had all the facts from Big Bang to Quantum Physics to you-name-it. The whole point to it seemed to be that after all has been said and done, tested and proven, there is still one question remaining: Why? Why are we here? What the fuck are we supposed to do? Is it all just coincidence? Is there a pattern?
My take on that one always was “Nope, there’s just an infinite number of parallel universes, and we just happen to live in one where life is possible, and Earth didn’t fall to pieces before apes got smart enough to build nukes and blow themselves up”. Still, just playing with the thought I might be wrong on that gives me the creeps. What if there IS a God? What if we are observed? What if we are doing it all wrong? Or even better, why the fuck would God want us to do what we are doing? What might be the plan? It’s a conspiracy theory on an epic scale.
Coming back to Dogma, this movie was inspirational on a lot of levels. It was funny and all, but I really liked how they managed to question religion as a whole and Christianity in particular without being all too blasphemous. I don’t claim to be the politically right guy all the time either, but there are limits. Live and let live. If Christians choose to believe in this stuff, so be it. We have no right to insult them for that, just as well as we don’t want to be judged for NOT believing it. Simple as that.
Months ago I was not able to sleep yet again and decided to write a small something about what I think the meaning of life is. However, I failed horribly, and within my own reasoning I was forcing myself, in the end, to question the very script I had produced. Nothing made sense even more. It was a merry-go-round of “This sentence is wrong”. This made me question my views, and I have yet to find an answer.
Maybe that’s what we are supposed to do after all, look for an answer. Just like in science, maybe we are just not meant to find it. Or not yet, anyway.
But what I am sure of already, is that you have to believe in something. Or have an idea, like Rufus would say. Have a general idea of what you think you’re supposed to do, and do it. Don’t go through your life blindly, following idols other people put up in order to make you their puppets. Don’t accept anything without questioning it. There is nothing like “infallible”, there is nothing absolute. That’s the only thing science has taught me so far.
Keep looking, maybe you won’t find answers, but some new, interesting questions might arise. That being said, discuss. And please, keep it flame-free.
 
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Read some stuff on David Hume. He is pretty practicular when he talks about life and actually simplifies everything into two categories: matters of fact and relations of ideas. It's pretty interesting read. Btw the book is called Inquires and it seems relevant to your interests.
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The Jehovah's Witnesses put out heaps of reading material, more than any other sect. You can always contact:
Jehovah's Witnesses
Wallkill, NY 12589
And request "Awake" or "The Watchtower" to be delivered to you monthly free of charge if you wanted to find out more.
Edit: Crap, I forgot you were from Germany. Here is their address there:
Niederselters
Am Steinfels
D-65618 Selters
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where did god come from? how was he created? if someone claim that he is the beginning or he was always there or whatever, i don't see how accepting that the world simply exist is so hard.
i don't think you should be creeped out by the thought that you "might" be wrong. there are endless hypothesis you "might" be wrong about, aliens, hindu gods, you name it. remember that because something cannot be disproven doesn't mean that it's proven! i can't promise you god doesn't exist, but i do know that i have no reason to believe there is, because nothing speaks in it's favor =)
"This made me question my views, and I have yet to find an answer.
Maybe that’s what we are supposed to do after all, look for an answer. Just like in science, maybe we are just not meant to find it. Or not yet, anyway."
about purpose: it's a nice try but as you found out, there is no purpose to "figure out". just realize that we're not THAT important. there is no ulterior motive, nobody is playing games with us. the only purpose that will ever exist is the purpose you create for yourself, for example "make others happy", "make the world a better place" or maybe "try all the kinds of beer in the world". it's up to you what you want to do with your life =)
this will sound old and tired but you should check out some dawkins stuff. if you can cope with his unforgiving tone what he says makes a lot of sense really. find it on youtube.
sorry for this incoherent rant ^^ it's early and i didn't have any breakfast yet.
smooth sailing captain
/ aepplet
EDIT: and oh, i will check out the movie!
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You question: "The whole point to it seemed to be that after all has been said and done, tested and proven, there is still one question remaining: Why? Why are we here? What the fuck are we supposed to do? Is it all just coincidence? Is there a pattern?"
First, i don't see how the existance of god will give you a clue of what you are supposed to do. Second, who created god? What is he supposed to do? Does his being have a greater meaning (in regard to himself, not to us. Cause he was there a long time when we were still 'not made')?
If you are willing to accept that God was there all the time, and you accept that you don't know why god was there all the time. Well, why would you want a reason for your own being?
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OT: Where's your weekly tl.net-recap? I was really looking forward to this 
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Ouh, stay away from the Jehovas Witnesses : (...
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Belgium8305 Posts
On September 22 2007 21:12 Yizuo wrote:
Ouh, stay away from the Jehovas Witnesses : (...
Yeah, I wouldn't put too much faith in a bunch of people who have predicted the end of the world about a billion times. Discussing anything with them is useless too, because in the end they'll just point to the Bible as an authorative source, even the authorative source.
That's what it really comes down to with any religion: accepting the leap of faith you have to make that consists of accepting what a bunch of ancient dead guys said. Personally, I don't quite feel like placing any value in the words of some hut dweller who claimed God spoke to him any more than I feel like placing value in the words of the screaming hobo on the corner of the street, but millions of people don't seem to see the problem there.
Furthermore, it's easy to see the basic human need for something like a God, a divine creator who controls everything and will reward you if you obey his will.
First off, it helps soothe the insecurities many people experience - it's easier to live life when you know there's some big guy out there who can do absolutely anything and he's looking out for you.
Secondly, the need for purpose. It can be hard to swallow that there's no point behind every single thing that exists. It just happened, and thanks to the small probability of sentient life developing and the incredible hugeness of the universe, here we are, wondering why the hell we are here.
Finally, and this was mostly true in older societies, the general shittiness of life. It's a lot easier to keep a society together when the populace believes they'll get an eternity of damnation if they don't follow a set of rules, and an eternity of bliss if they do - probably something to look forward to when you're living in a shack with fifteen other people and there's only one piece of bread to go around.
It is my view that there is simply no purpose for a God to exist. We are beginning to understand how the universe came to be, and we are charting all of the laws that govern existence - and none of them were written by a divine entity. There is no room for Him.
It's even easier to see how organized religion is a complete joke, taking the factors I expounded upon into account.
I think my views are mostly identical to those of many of today's generation, and I find that to be one of the most encouraging aspects of modern society.
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Dudes chill out ^^ No need asking ourselves these kind of questions cuz we all know that there wont be an answer for it and I'd prefer my questions answered to avoid stress sleepless nights and waste of time. Seriously get out more lol :p
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Rebelheart, I would like to ask you to not call the Jehova's Witnesses a sect. For others, Christianity or Buddhism might not be more than a sect too. It all depends on your point of view. Anyhow, I am not in any way associated with them or will ever be, I am a much too rational person to believe in something like that. I have my own views on this, as stated in the OP. I am not in danger of being drawn in to their institutions, I was just impressed about how level-headed and fair this booklet was, that's all. It was much more elaborate and less demeaning towards science than anything I ever saw created by someone who believed in God.
kidd: thanks for the recommendation, I thought about reading something philosophical soon anyway, so I will look into it. Maybe the university library has it even.
Aepplet: That is not that far from what I was thinking about this topic just a few weeks back. But it is frighteningly void. This idea that our existence means nothing makes it pretty hard for me to get up every morning and do what I do, whatever that maybe in a few years from now. I am looking for a more optimistic way of looking at things. I've been a pessimist and a nihilist all my life, and I wish to change it. Makes yourself more fun to be around for other people, too.
Navane: Good point. It's not about that idea of "God" anymore, though. It's about your own spirituality. I've been honing my mind, my conscious, however you want to name it, for several years now. It just seems to be very comfortable, from what I see in religious people, to be able to let go sometimes. To just not feel the urge to rationalize everything. Whether you call it divine intervention or coincidence, it's important to realize that some things just "happen". I am looking for my inner self if you want, a spiritual journey or whatever. And it's not that much of an emo thing to do than what it sounds like...
Mandalor: Nice that you remind me of this. I feel like I will be too busy to do this as soon as classes start though, I will see if I can find the time, but don't kill me if I don't.
Micah: Would you please bother to look up when the last time was you made a post that long?
I agree almost totally on what you said, except for one little thing: Religion doesn't have to be organized. I was never taught that, my Mom said church sucked, thus religion sucked. Spiritualism in whatever way is a good thing in my eyes, it helps you get through rough times when you have nobody to turn to but yourself. Or God, for that matter. Faith and hope in something - anything - can give you great strength.
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If you want to 'let go' sometimes, i think you should go with budha. Some things just happen, yes. But still you might not like it. Accept that it happens, and accept that you don't like it. Budhism is about accepting the whole world around you rather than wanting to change it.
Doesn't count for every situation off course. Like the lost fishermen on the ocean said: you can believe in god, but you still have to row.
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Belgium8305 Posts
Hey, I make serious posts sometimes!
Actually, I agree with you, and while I am as sure as I epimostologically can be that there is nothing "more" to existence, I think it's a good thing for others that they are able to find solace in faith.
I also think there is very little malice in the lower regions of organized religion, i.e. on the level of individual churches. I suspect that faith plays but a very small role in the upper echelons.
It is also nothing but harmful to have one's ethics be lead by a 2000 year old book - with 2000 year old moral and ethical norms.
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On September 23 2007 00:48 vGl-CoW wrote:
Hey, I make serious posts sometimes!
Actually, I agree with you, and while I am as sure as I epimostologically can be that there is nothing "more" to existence, I think it's a good thing for others that they are able to find solace in faith.
I also think there is very little malice in the lower regions of organized religion, i.e. on the level of individual churches. I suspect that faith plays but a very small role in the upper echelons.
It is also nothing but harmful to have one's ethics be lead by a 2000 year old book - with 2000 year old moral and ethical norms.
Goes without saying. The upper class of organized churches don't care about faith. Not anymore, if they ever did. It's all politics and keeping the system from crumbling.
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Sweden33719 Posts
Main Entry: 1sect
Pronunciation: 'sekt
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English secte, from Anglo-French & Late Latin & Latin; Anglo-French, group, faction, from Late Latin secta organized ecclesiastical body, from Latin, course of action, way of life, probably from sectari to pursue, frequentative of sequi to follow -- more at SUE
1 a : a dissenting or schismatic religious body; especially : one regarded as extreme or heretical b : a religious denomination
2 archaic : SEX 1
3 a : a group adhering to a distinctive doctrine or to a leader b : PARTY c : FACTION
They are a sect.
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Does that mean there is somebody out there who claims to be the one who may judge religious beliefs and make up categories such as "legit" or "sect" or "shenanigens"?
In my eyes, believing in the flying spaghetti monster or cthulu is about as legit as believing in Jesus, Buddha, Allah, or anything else. Get off your high horses you religion fascists.
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you know what is the sad part of this? (you finding a meaning - even if it's only for yourself)
after you'll find it (and find it you shall because you need it) your flicker, glint, sparkle will vanish from your eyes. you will become an average contended mofo, dwelling in his new found 'certainties'.
not knowing answers keeps you looking. looking for them keeps you alive.
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On September 23 2007 02:53 xM(Z wrote:
you know what is the sad part of this? (you finding a meaning - even if it's only for yourself)
after you'll find it (and find it you shall because you need it) your flicker, glint, sparkle will vanish from your eyes. you will become an average contended mofo, dwelling in his new found 'certainties'.
not knowing answers keeps you looking. looking for them keeps you alive.
My thoughts exactly. Curiousity is what got humanity where it is, be it for good or bad doesn't matter. Our ability to think logically and rationalize complex issues is our biggest gift, and a burden as well. Like I said, maybe that's just what we are made for, looking for answers.
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I don't see what's wrong with calling them a sect, I was referring to them in the sense that they are the sect of Christianity that produces the most publications. Other sects involve Catholicism and Protestants and Methodism and Mormons etc... There's nothing wrong with calling them a sect of Christianity. And Christianity itself the religion.
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No, Christianity is a joke. And an old joke too.
Hey guys I am trolling my own blog, how awesome is that?
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think of this: there is no one else in this entire universe and it's up to you to figure it out. you should 'be' a god, try to think like one even if it's for a few minutes, seconds, moments; then you will realise you don't 'have to believe in something' , you is all there is.
believe in you.
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On September 23 2007 07:59 xM(Z wrote:
think of this: there is no one else in this entire universe and it's up to you to figure it out. you should 'be' a god, try to think like one even if it's for a few minutes, seconds, moments; then you will realise you don't 'have to believe in something' , you is all there is.
believe in you.
Actually that might just be where the Ten Commandments originally came from. Someone went nuts and decided that he was better than the rest and made all that crap up.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
assuming there is a spiritual side to humans in the sense that the expression/development of it is naturally healthy (self realisation), it still takes a liberal viewpoint to be found socially acceptable. liberal as in, not holding hte thoughts as absolute metaphysical truth (you could say, i believe this is absolutely true, provided that you are insincere about it).
even so, spiritualists are pretty much out in the cold on fundamental inquiries of the human.
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On September 23 2007 08:34 Cpt Obvious wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2007 07:59 xM(Z wrote:
think of this: there is no one else in this entire universe and it's up to you to figure it out. you should 'be' a god, try to think like one even if it's for a few minutes, seconds, moments; then you will realise you don't 'have to believe in something' , you is all there is.
believe in you. Actually that might just be where the Ten Commandments originally came from. Someone went nuts and decided that he was better than the rest and made all that crap up.
yes i know, but my perspective is different. the saying "it's a fine line between love and hate" applies here. meaning, while the idea remains the same 'you=>god' the motive that drives one, changes. while you talked about a you that is prideful and arrogant i talk about a you that is humble and modest. different, distinct personalities with the same reason d'etre. of course, their course of action will reflect their respective personalities but there is no doubt in my mind that the ideea behind it it's the same: the godification of the self.
the creation and the destruction, consequences of the same force.
the short version of my opinion regarding your OP:
+ Show Spoiler +you want something, you search for something because your will demands it. it, is like a batery (a 4v one for the sake of the argument  ), fully charged at birth, empty when you die. currents (wills intensity) and voltages (wills power) dictates ones personality. all personality types have something in common: their depletion/deterioration with age is inevitable. youth exuberance (batery fully charged) , middle life complacency (battery half charged) and old age senility (almost empty batery). the 3 steps in which ones life decays. you're entering stage 2. in this stage your solitude (apears when you realise that something is now missing) must be appeased both socially and personally. your weakened will drives you to search a fallback plan. since you can't recharge yourself you try to artificially up your value by association with other (group of) people which share your interests, ideas, views, opinions (2 half dead bateries are as good a a new one). so, you're searching for appartenance to something, to an idea (a greater than you idea) shared by a group of people ( it can be about science, religion, sexual fulfillment, family or job related activities etc ). it is here where all goes to shit. in theory it should work: with your innate resources (batery) 50% depleted you search for another means of sustainability. strength in numbers should work. a bunch of people ralied to an ideea are stronger then a lonely person doing the same. (2v + 2v =4v) gg, you're a new and better man. (in theory). now, if you apply that to real life, all goes to hell. i'll take a random 'idea' (since some of you in this thread mentioned religion i'll go with that). Jehovah's Witnesses, the concept of it it's based on one mans idea. ideally, all followers should understand, follow and uphold that idea because it defines them as a group (it makes them special). the truth is none of them does. the concept that should unite them died with the man who created the sect. so now you have a bunch of unconnected people who are desperately trying to cling to something that is not there and never will be. it's something like this: if i say 'star' one thinks of a star in the sky, another thinks of the stars on some general shoulders; if i say 'heart' , one thinks of the 350grams of flesh that pumps the blood, another thinks of the soul of a person. the point is that they do not understand each other and never will. it's all bullshit: socialisation, affiliation, adheration, pornification... they are all artificialy created addictions to facilitate the passing between the 2nd and 3rd stage of life (in which you don't care anymore). a mind booze, destined to make you and keep you dizzy until the middle life crisis hits. after that it's all down hill. you basically have 2 choices: walk the lonely road of an arbitrary perceived reality or trade your soul for a few more years of ignorance. for some that is not even a choice since the end it's the same for us all: "/j the void". (it's short, i know )
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Very very good read. It makes sense in some way. Yet I don't feel the urge to socialize with others and rally myself to an idea. I am not a follower. I have always been the lonely wolf, or to say it more bluntly, an outcast. My views seem confusing to others and I am rarely fully understood in what I say.
My goal is to find an idea for myself, something I can accept of the very essence of all existence, but not for the sake of achieving a state of power or being worshipped as the creator of something great. As of now I think that is the most important thing in my life. Finding that answer I am looking, although I don't really even know the question. You know how the Chinese say "The way is the goal."
Maybe looking for that answer is the goal, however contradictionary that may sound. And let's not even begin to talk about how all human existence is void anyway, because of our ridiculously short life expectancy and our tendency to rape and kill each other, and that only is when we're not currently stealing from eachother and building more bombs. We al know that, it's just not many people are aware of their own mortality. I well am.
But that does not mean I have to despair. I still have some 50 years to go I think, so why sit here and say "It's all meaningless anyway"? I've done that for the past 5 years, but I'm done with that.
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EPT
