|
I did not know how to make this into a blog, so feel free to move it there if you can. Anyway, for anyone who cares, I will repeat what I already said.
--—------------------------------
I wanted to just write to say that I am in a lot of trouble. I will only deal with the most immediate one of them.
I am a PhD student in Germany. Last year, I was hit by a car and entered a long coma. I was not conscious for almost five months. They operated on me. I woke up at home. Now because I did not pay my fees for last semester, there is a legal process to deport me from the "Schengen Zone" i.e. from mainland Europe. Without a student visa, I have no excuse for being in Germany. My legal guardian is trying to fight this legally, but there is a high chance that I will be deported from Europe before getting my PhD.
The law of averages is working against me. Germans do not want more Arabs or whomever coming in and breaking laws, etc. Germany cannot show favouritism in countries except in the case of the EU. I was born in China, came in after my Ma in the Czech Republic, but am a Canadian. No exceptions for me. I did not even know that I had to pay for the next semester. As a PhD student, I do not go to regular classes anyway. I basically wrote last semester off because of the virus. There was no prospect of this thing subsiding, so even if I had paid my fees on time, it looked like I was paying for nothing. But the simple answer is that I just forgot. Too many things on my plate simultaneously... all out of other bad things are happening to me at the same time as this. Everyone wants me to stay, so I still hope that this will be resolved somehow.
I heard that if I am expelled from continental Europe, they wanted to keep me out until my medical issues were resolved. I do not even know about my medical issues. Because of this virus lockdown thing, I have not been able to go back to the hospital that operated on me to ask what if anything I should do.
That is another way that the law of averages is working against me. They have a minimal time period in which you have to live in Germany before you could get a German passport. You have to give up your previous citizenship, unless again, if you are a citizen of the EU and some other exceptions, none of which I qualify for. I am used to living here and there. I am 34 now. Lived in China for 7 years, Canada for 14 years, Germany for 7 years, Czech Republic for 3 years, England for 1 year, and you have to round the numbers up a bit. I speak every language of the countries I just listed, but those are only half of the languages I know....I just read that Germany votes against more immigration. No doubt they are against so many Arabs coming here and breaking laws. There has never been anyone like me, but since Germany has to follow that law of averages, I might fall victim to it. It is in the books, I was just informed today. The only way out, that we could think of at the time, was to have a sham marriage with someone from the EU. I do not know the legal status now, I hope that this thing is resolves itself somehow, but it is looking terrible for me... this thing pulled onto of all my other present problems.
|
Norway28261 Posts
Sad to hear old friend. I really hope your problems work out. I can't offer anything but my sympathy, but of that, you have plenty.
|
If I understand you correctly you have been exmatriculated because you did not pay the semester fee and due to this you are not eligible for a student visa renewal?
Didn't you receive a demand note before being officially exmatriculated? If not, this may be a possible avenue to object the exmatriculation. Either way, you should have a set amount of time after receiving the "Exmatrikulationsbescheid" to formally object the exmatriculation (normally a month). This is something you should absolutely do if the deadline has not passed yet - preferably after getting legal advice first, but if there is no time to do so, an immediate (so you do not miss the deadline) simple formal letter with "I object due to X or Y" could have a positive impact if you decide to go to court. In any case, you should check if your situation could be presented as a "Härtefall" that would revert the exmatriculation (be it due to corona, your health issues, or any combination of whatever reasons some lawyer's imagination can come up with).
Legal advice is probably absolutely neccessary in your case. No matter if you already have a lawyer or not, you should also try to take advantage of any legal consultations your univesity offers: Most universities offer free "Rechtsberatung", sometimes legal advice is also offered by the AStA and/or the "Ausländervertretung". Even if no legal support is offered, it is worth calling up the AStA and explaining your problem and see if they give you some guidance.
German bureaucracy is pretty heartless but it is also quite sluggish. If none of the above offers any avenue for action, you may consider if any acts towards you or anything you have in writing could be used to claim that any decisions on your situation have been influenced by discrimination (on the grounds of ethnicity or disability). It may sound far fetched, but both are touchy topics in Germany and may be worth a shot - a formal complaint about racial discrimination to the appropriate instituation was all it took to revert a rejection back when I was about to start school. If nothing else works, you could consult with a lawyer on "Migrationsrecht" and see if he has any ideas. Although, I can only assume that this route would most likely prevent you from continuing your PhD even if you are allowed to stay in Germany.
Maybe something from the above could help you find a way to resolve the situation. Or maybe, you have already considered everything mentioned and much more. Either way, I wish you good luck.
|
It's just awesome that your coma does not seem to have caused brain damage, judging from you expression ability. It is actually decent and was neatly arranged. Add to that the fact of your unlikely survival from the crash and the total leads me to think that you have plenty of reasons to appreciate life and not to whine and complain about something as insignificant (in my opinion at least) as being unable to finish your PhD. Yet here you are, choosing to do the latter instead of the former. I will join my opinion to the man above, go ahead and do whatever you legally can to stay in Germany and finish the PhD if you think that's beneficial for you. But if you fail I think you should do your best to keep a placid countenance and move on with your life. I am trying to put myself in your shoes, never an easy task, to be sure. I guess I would make certain all immediate danger and brain trauma is absent, then I would look for legal advice, as already suggested. And also look for other ways to stay in Germany besides a student visa. I think you can start a job and the employer will support you and help with visa issues. Whatever you do, do not go into a sham marriage though. This seems so degrading that even the thought occurrence is repulsive for me. I really wish you all the best and I hope you will steer your life for the best outcome!
|
Apparently my academic supervisor now has medical issues of his own, and could not be contacted.
I know that Germany can still be sensitive to charges of racism or whatever. I am not trying to be a holier - than-thou person about it, but it has never been in my character. I cannot hit a person where he cannot defend himself. I will never lynch another person unfairly, even though it seems that this legal issue is deeply unfair towards me.
On that charge of racism, I was just thinking about that lawsuit of "Asian-Americans" against Harvard for "racism." Asian-Americans have to attain much higher grades in school to get into the top schools in the US, including Harvard, than any other race. As far as I know, the guidelines say that race could be one of multiple factors, as long as it is not the only factor.
Asians did not invent the modern University system. It was a European creation. But they are winning the game where the rules were set by another people. As far as I know, you could be rejected from a top university in the USA with no explanations given as to why you didn't make it. The multiple factors non-explanation just sounds to me like a thing that could cause the very thing that it pretends to guard against, i.e. racism or sexism. No one has to explain himself. I do not want a Ivy League university system with 80% Asians either. Asians attain the best IQ scores in the world. They get the highest grades in school. But they lack something that no one can quantify. I read about the "Asian creativity deficit." That struck me as being true too...you cannot quantify it...
I study history. Where there are no Asians. Even my mother told me to not do history, because it would get me nowhere, with no job. I ignored her. Coming in from China, I noticed that math in the west was a huge step down. I was spared the worst, because throughout school I went to a "gifted class." But still I got perfect on every math test through school. Math bored me because I said back then : whereas in history no one can know the truth, in math all you do are the same exercises over and over again. I got very high grades on those, but they bored me. Almost no Asian does history, or literature, or philosophy, etc... They completely dominate math, the natural sciences and IT. As I said, Asians simply have different life goals than western people. People in the west cannot even imagine how materialistic they are. Fine. Let them dominate math and the natural sciences then. Let them make the most money.
I am Asian by blood, but quite western in my mindset. (Some people have called me a banana.) I do not care about money or how much money I make, or my living standards. About that confused entry system into the top American universities, I think they should at least explain why they chose this or that person. Handicap the Asians, I would be all in favour of that. The present system does not work... where you only look at grades. But at least let us know on what basis you are judging the applicants.
One more thing to say : I also noticed that racially, the Asians never fight their own corner. In terms of test results and IQs, Asians > Whites > Blacks. But in some weird way, Blacks > Whites > Asians. Maybe the indescribable "personality factor," whatever that is.
In the USA, a lot of Whites would prove that they are not racist by having a token black friend. In Canada, a much smaller country, we have almost no blacks, and many more Asians per capita. I cannot remember any of them in politics, or on TV, or doing anything of real social importance. In the USA, Asians are so small in every way that no one even thinks about them. I doubt many Americans are even racist against them, because being racist in the USA means that you have another obvious target. Blacks and Asians have almost the opposite problems abroad. Blacks have low IQ, get bad grades in school, commit more crime, but have "personality." Asians are the opposite. Culture is another one of those unsolvable things for me. You can say that Japan is "westernised" economically, but in culture, in my experience, it is still confucian. Perhaps there will be an eternal battle of ideas.
|
Contact a lawyer or an organization that can help get you a lawyer (pro bono if necessary), the reasons for your problem are not your fault and you should seek protection through the law which should be on your side here. There are definitely resources you can tap that it sounds like you aren't, people who will help you.
|
TLADT24917 Posts
I'm not personally sure of how the law works over there, but ggrrg's post sounds really indepth and gives a ton of options. Explore those imo and go from there. Best of luck and hope things improve for you!
|
On May 26 2020 18:24 MoltkeWarding wrote: Blacks have low IQ, get bad grades in school, commit more crime, but have "personality." Asians are the opposite. Culture is another one of those unsolvable things for me. You can say that Japan is "westernised" economically, but in culture, in my experience, it is still confucian. Perhaps there will be an eternal battle of ideas. If your thesis is anywhere near as dumb as these statements, I don't think school is really working for you.
|
I cannot see what you even mean by that. All I can think of is that I read that you are from China. The Chinese are Japanophobic as hell. It is hardly possible to describe to a Western person how that oriental brainwashing works. The Chinese never forget. In English, the term Confucian cultures is used as a kind of shorthand to refer to all East Asian cultures. Including the Chinese and the Japanese. Japan once looked up to China as an elder brother, until the "betrayal," when Japan started to look towards England, modernised much earlier than China, and the entire matter came to a head in WW2. I do not care much about east Asians in general now. I cannot favour one country over the other in that China vs. Japan war of words. Otherwise I do not know what you mean. Everything I have done academically has been very successful so far, even if I did not really believe in the class, and thought that it was a waste of time.
|
Right, it should be obvious to any intellectual that black people are dumb dumbs, and Asians have no creativity.
|
Um.... I never made any claims of either thing about either race, if you read my actual words.
And what I said about test scores and IQ was what was established in statistical averages. I did not make up what I wanted to believe.
You can dispute whether IQ actually means anything, if you wanted to make some sort of argument. What you just said meant nothing.
|
I don't totally fault reincremate for reacting to someone pointing out these statistics because a lot of racialists use them to advance their belief that black people are genetically inferior. Of course, I find it disturbing that a lot of people seem emotionally invested in believing that blacks are genetically stupider and more criminal, despite scant evidence supporting that notion. That said, MoltkeWarding never attributed these statistics to genetic causes and I think it's fair to make generalizations the way he is doing because the statistical differences are pretty significant and well-supported.
I don't really agree with his point about the Asian creativity deficit either but he stated it as an opinion.
.
|
Update : false alarm. I am not getting deported. New issue: my mother lied about everything. Not only the deportation. Nothing to bother tl.net about. The one crisis mentioned here is apparently over. Now I have my many private problems to deal with.
|
On May 27 2020 21:18 Anc13nt wrote: I don't totally fault reincremate for reacting to someone pointing out these statistics because a lot of racialists use them to advance their belief that black people are genetically inferior. Of course, I find it disturbing that a lot of people seem emotionally invested in believing that blacks are genetically stupider and more criminal, despite scant evidence supporting that notion. That said, MoltkeWarding never attributed these statistics to genetic causes and I think it's fair to make generalizations the way he is doing because the statistical differences are pretty significant and well-supported.
I don't really agree with his point about the Asian creativity deficit either but he stated it as an opinion.
. I was also uncomfortable with the post. You're right in saying OP avoids directly linking the IQ statistics to anything, but bringing up the statistics without linking them to socioeconomic inequality and its effect on the development of cognitive skills, or making an effort to separate said development and innate mental ability, but instead using them to make sweeping generalizations about racial identities, just seems disingenuous to say the least.
Anyway glad your immediate crisis has passed, sounds like a shitty situation
|
No one could have been poorer than in the China that I grew up in, if you are talking about socio-economic inequality. That China was pretty close to the poorest country in the world back then. Yet one website states that the average IQ in China is 105. Way higher than average. So obviously it is not a question of absolute poverty, with how they measure IQs these days. Maybe relative poverty? But then, you would have to explain why some countries, if their citizens came to the west would be classified as medically retarded.
|
United Kingdom10443 Posts
On May 27 2020 22:52 MoltkeWarding wrote: No one could have been poorer than in the China that I grew up in, if you are talking about socio-economic inequality. That China was pretty close to the poorest country in the world back then. Yet one website states that the average IQ in China is 105. Way higher than average. So obviously it is not a question of absolute poverty, with how they measure IQs these days. Maybe relative poverty? But then, you would have to explain why some countries, if their citizens came to the west would be classified as medically retarded.
Maybe google IQ cultural bias and educate yourself before spouting some debunked shit that was used to promote social cleansing/ eugenic arguments.
|
I just did.
"According to some researchers, the “cultural specificity” of intelligence makes IQ tests biased towards the environments in which they were developed – namely white, Western society."
The countries which have the highest IQ averages according to this list I am looking at says that those countries are neither white nor western.
If you want a specific article read, link the article so that we can all analyse it.
BTW, I know nothing about your formal "education," but I am going to venture a guess that formally, I am much more educated than you. Informally, I have read many more books, and own a private library that is much larger than yours.
P. S. In the old times, IQ testing was a strategy some used to remove the very "social cleansing" you are referring to.
|
On May 27 2020 22:42 catplanetcatplanet wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2020 21:18 Anc13nt wrote: I don't totally fault reincremate for reacting to someone pointing out these statistics because a lot of racialists use them to advance their belief that black people are genetically inferior. Of course, I find it disturbing that a lot of people seem emotionally invested in believing that blacks are genetically stupider and more criminal, despite scant evidence supporting that notion. That said, MoltkeWarding never attributed these statistics to genetic causes and I think it's fair to make generalizations the way he is doing because the statistical differences are pretty significant and well-supported.
I don't really agree with his point about the Asian creativity deficit either but he stated it as an opinion.
. I was also uncomfortable with the post. You're right in saying OP avoids directly linking the IQ statistics to anything, but bringing up the statistics without linking them to socioeconomic inequality and its effect on the development of cognitive skills, or making an effort to separate said development and innate mental ability, but instead using them to make sweeping generalizations about racial identities, just seems disingenuous to say the least. Anyway glad your immediate crisis has passed, sounds like a shitty situation
I feel like what he is saying is similar to someone pointing out that Trump supporters are significantly less educated than Clinton supporters. The statement is probably true regardless of how you define "poorly educated" and they are significant enough to the point that a useful generalization can be made but they don't describe every Trump supporter. It surely explains to me why Trump supporters take His word as gospel..
|
On May 28 2020 02:45 MoltkeWarding wrote: I just did.
"According to some researchers, the “cultural specificity” of intelligence makes IQ tests biased towards the environments in which they were developed – namely white, Western society."
The countries which have the highest IQ averages according to this list I am looking at says that those countries are neither white nor western.
If you want a specific article read, link the article so that we can all analyse it.
If the average "intelligence" in China is so high, why does no one in the country know how to stand on an escalator? (proof: come to China and see for yourself). While we're making sweeping generalizations here, I'd venture to say scoring higher on things like IQ tests is pretty much unavoidable when parents and teachers literally beat students into academic submission from a young age into adulthood. China and countries in its sphere of cultural influence have a long, well-documented history of valuing standardized test scores (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_examination), so it's not surprising if aggregately Chinese people and other Asians still score higher on standardized tests, "western" or not. Is IQ a meaningful measurement? Probably not. If so, please explain how. Otherwise, I don't see why you'd even bother to bring it up.
BTW, I know nothing about your formal "education," but I am going to venture a guess that formally, I am much more educated than you. Informally, I have read many more books, and own a private library that is much larger than yours.
P. S. In the old times, IQ testing was a strategy some used to remove the very "social cleansing" you are referring to.
This is like the pseudo-intellectual equivalent of "do you even lift bro?"
|
On May 27 2020 22:52 MoltkeWarding wrote: No one could have been poorer than in the China that I grew up in, if you are talking about socio-economic inequality. That China was pretty close to the poorest country in the world back then. Yet one website states that the average IQ in China is 105. Way higher than average. So obviously it is not a question of absolute poverty, with how they measure IQs these days. Maybe relative poverty? But then, you would have to explain why some countries, if their citizens came to the west would be classified as medically retarded.
One significant cause of iq differences come from defects, exposure to toxins and nutritional deficiencies acquired from birth or in the early years of development. That explains why the average IQ in a lot of poor countries is pretty low. I would imagine that infant mortality is a good proxy for how unfavourable the conditions are for infants in a certain country so I am basing my subsequent analysis on this (there are probably better ways to measure this but this one seemed easy to use).
I'm guessing you are mainly referring to sub-saharan african countries for your last statement. I think the disparity in average iq may be somewhat explained by worser living conditions for infants. Sub-saharan african countries have very high infant mortality rates (overall, almost 50 per 1000 births) and has had much higher infant mortality rates than China for many years. There was a time when China was basically close to as poor as sub-saharan African countries but the government was able to provide healthcare to much of the rural population through the rural co-operative medical scheme, which greatly reduced infant mortality and increased life expectancy by a lot (this is probably one of the few good things that I think Mao Zedong did) during the 70s. My hunch is that sub-saharan african countries probably were behind the curve compared to China when it came to providing state-funded healthcare.
So I think the difference in iqs between poor countries might be partially attributable to quality of healthcare but this is my speculation (yes I am aware of the lack of rigor in my argument).
|
Where's all this data about Chinese IQs in the 70s?
|
On May 28 2020 15:34 reincremate wrote: Where's all this data about Chinese IQs in the 70s?
i doubt there is very much data at all about the topic in general, let alone the 70s I don't know the date of the study he is talking about but my point stands as long as the study is during/after the 70s.
|
" If the average "intelligence" in China is so high, why does no one in the country know how to stand on an escalator? (proof: come to China and see for yourself). While we're making sweeping generalizations here, I'd venture to say scoring higher on things like IQ tests is pretty much unavoidable when parents and teachers literally beat students into academic submission from a young age into adulthood. China and countries in its sphere of cultural influence have a long, well-documented history of valuing standardized test scores (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_examination), so it's not surprising if aggregately Chinese people and other Asians still score higher on standardized tests, "western" or not. Is IQ a meaningful measurement? Probably not. If so, please explain how. Otherwise, I don't see why you'd even bother to bring it up."
You know the answer as well as I, but for everyone else : back when I was growing up in China, public electricity did not exist. Chinese people had to learn how to do everything anew. China has an aging population. I was born under the one-child-policy. When that was recently lifted, China's birth rates did not increase. It is still stuck at below replacement levels. Soon India will have the largest population in the world. This is a general trend among all confucian cultures with the low birth rates.
I did not say that IQ scores meant anything. I said that positively, there was some piece of the picture that the tests are missing. What it is cannot be quantified. Some western academics have posited that IQ was as close to a relevant measure of what it is supposed to measure as compared to any other quantifiable measure that we have. I am thinking of the US army prohibiting anyone with an IQ of less than 83 from joining the army, determining that there was absolutely nothing that you could do for the army at that IQ.
" This is like the pseudo-intellectual equivalent of "do you even lift bro?""
Okay. You were the one who was asking the question. You brought the question of my "education" up. So your comments are directed towards yourself.
|
On May 28 2020 13:35 Anc13nt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2020 22:52 MoltkeWarding wrote: No one could have been poorer than in the China that I grew up in, if you are talking about socio-economic inequality. That China was pretty close to the poorest country in the world back then. Yet one website states that the average IQ in China is 105. Way higher than average. So obviously it is not a question of absolute poverty, with how they measure IQs these days. Maybe relative poverty? But then, you would have to explain why some countries, if their citizens came to the west would be classified as medically retarded. One significant cause of iq differences come from defects, exposure to toxins and nutritional deficiencies acquired from birth or in the early years of development. That explains why the average IQ in a lot of poor countries is pretty low. I would imagine that infant mortality is a good proxy for how unfavourable the conditions are for infants in a certain country so I am basing my subsequent analysis on this (there are probably better ways to measure this but this one seemed easy to use). I'm guessing you are mainly referring to sub-saharan african countries for your last statement. I think the disparity in average iq may be somewhat explained by worser living conditions for infants. Sub-saharan african countries have very high infant mortality rates (overall, almost 50 per 1000 births) and has had much higher infant mortality rates than China for many years. There was a time when China was basically close to as poor as sub-saharan African countries but the government was able to provide healthcare to much of the rural population through the rural co-operative medical scheme, which greatly reduced infant mortality and increased life expectancy by a lot (this is probably one of the few good things that I think Mao Zedong did) during the 70s. My hunch is that sub-saharan african countries probably were behind the curve compared to China when it came to providing state-funded healthcare. So I think the difference in iqs between poor countries might be partially attributable to quality of healthcare but this is my speculation (yes I am aware of the lack of rigor in my argument).
The question of the longevity of cultural traditions is another point to be considered. Even today, Chinese people have a different diet from Europeans. I do not know the factors that go into the fact that every European country is on average, overweight, whereas in East Asia people remain thin.
I have also considered the question of whether oil is not a kind of poison for the Middle East. An Iranian recently told me on voice chat that in Iran, if you own a bicycle, you are an instant celebrity. That region of the world also rates the highest on the least daily exercise done per person. Very high on obesity. Everyone in that region of the world owns a car. In the China that I was born into, nobody owned a car. Everyone had a bicycle. Now of course there are many private cars in China, but habits are habits. China is not getting any younger.
I do not know enough about the customary Middle Eastern or Indian diet to comment there. I have been to many Indian restaurants, but in my experience, all the Chinese food that they sell in Europe is fake. Maybe also for the Indians? Living in Germany, of course I have had my share of Turkish food... or what the Germans call fast food. They are certainly quick. I do not know about their health content, but they do not seem too fattening to me. Yet for some reason, the Middle East has the fattest countries in the world.
I see that the countries that have the lowest infant mortality rates are in East Asia and Europe. There are numerous possible explanations for this, but let us take your example of better health care. I only know two of these cultures myself. I know that there are fundamental differences between the way that these two cultures regard children. I do not know the details, but I assume in India they also have their ethical "means" with children. The only thing I can think of right now is the so-called Only Child Syndrome. Europe and East Asia have child-bearing rates of below replacement. The opposite phenomenon is so of the Middle East and Africa. Does having more children mean that their lives are cheaper, so you care about each individual child less? I do not know. If you are born an Arab, does it mean your parents care less about you than if you were born Japanese?
Fundamentally, cultural differences also become a factor with the way children were given the best possible healthcare and education that a country could offer. The Chinese had this kind of mentality. They exported it even upon emigration. There are many ways, as the previous poster said, in which children in that region of the world are raised which are not models for the west at all. Child abuse was rampant. I myself grew up under conditions in Canada which would have been outright illegal in local law. I never complained. I just took the beatings.
That just brings into question the wisdom of importing so many immigrants with fundamentally different cultural values. They may fight, but the law of that country is always in the dark. They may never see eye to eye on anything but one thing: the legal system of their host country is phoney. They call Asians some kind of "model immigrants" in North America. There is more going on behind the scenes than is ever made public. The law is simply never brought in, so Asian-Americans have very low crime rates, etc.
I do not know about the quality of healthcare, but I can say that I have seen the huge gap between how parents treat children... in China vs. the west. In China, police will leave families alone. In the west, if your teacher sees bruises on you and thinks that you have been abused, she will call in the police. In China, there was a kind of Patria potestas. Very sexist, the father had absolute authority over the family, up to and including abusing the mother. Feminism is not really a thing in that part of the world. And neither is the idea of democracy, on any level. In the west, everyone in the family has a say. In China, they do not. That authoritarianism is so pervasive in the mindset of those people, that I am sure it is also so of the "democratic" countries of Japan and South Korea. Power is democratic, thanks to the American occupation, but not the basic mindset of those countries.
|
While I am waiting to resolve another issue of mine...
I noticed that a previous poster from China said something where he thought he was trashing me, but really he was arguing against himself. I have also noticed plenty of this phenomenon in my own family. No matter their nationality.
My mother abused me. Even when I had grown stronger than her. One day I got tired of her always throwing the punches, so I hit back. My mother stopped and screamed: you hit me! Just like your abusive father!!!
She completely ignored the fact that she started it. Call it hypocrisy, but Asians cannot seem to understand the simple point that : if you don't want something done to you, do not start it yourself with others. If you start using their weapons, they will no longer fight by their own old rules, but switch weapons,whether committing to a war of words or whatever.
It brings to me that concept of the word "fair." You cannot exactly translate that word from English into any other language. So the very idea began in England, the concept of fairness. Whether other cultures live by its meaning is interesting. Obviously most of northern Europe speaks English anyway, so they will understand the concept. What about other cultures, like in China, Arabia, Russia, etc?
I myself have seen enough hypocrisy among Chinese people, even immigrants to believe that they do not live by the concept of fairness. I believe that is true of other cultures too, especially those with legendarily bad English. If no language you speak has a word for the idea, how can you even understand the idea? You cannot.
|
On May 28 2020 23:55 MoltkeWarding wrote: While I am waiting to resolve another issue of mine...
I noticed that a previous poster from China said something where he thought he was trashing me, but really he was arguing against himself. I have also noticed plenty of this phenomenon in my own family. No matter their nationality.
My mother abused me. Even when I had grown stronger than her. One day I got tired of her always throwing the punches, so I hit back. My mother stopped and screamed: you hit me! Just like your abusive father!!!
She completely ignored the fact that she started it. Call it hypocrisy, but Asians cannot seem to understand the simple point that : if you don't want something done to you, do not start it yourself with others. If you start using their weapons, they will no longer fight by their own old rules, but switch weapons,whether committing to a war of words or whatever.
It brings to me that concept of the word "fair." You cannot exactly translate that word from English into any other language. So the very idea began in England, the concept of fairness. Whether other cultures live by its meaning is interesting. Obviously most of northern Europe speaks English anyway, so they will understand the concept. What about other cultures, like in China, Arabia, Russia, etc?
I myself have seen enough hypocrisy among Chinese people, even immigrants to believe that they do not live by the concept of fairness. I believe that is true of other cultures too, especially those with legendarily bad English. If no language you speak has a word for the idea, how can you even understand the idea? You cannot.
that is an interesting point. I try to avoid talking too much about culture because I am very ignorant about it.
nonetheless, i do think a lot of countries have some notion of fairness because the golden rule is shared by many cultures but maybe it is not as advanced or as sacred. for instance, I don't think most cultures necessarily believe that there are human rights that should generally not be violated, not even if it might appear to be utilitarian to do so. This may be one reason why the chinese legal system is/was so draconian..
I think many cultures see value in fairness and believe it is a good thing (I feel like there is a certain desire for fairness inherent to most people by nature), but they ultimately do not hold it in as high regard when compared to being a "good" member of the community.
|
On May 28 2020 11:29 reincremate wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2020 02:45 MoltkeWarding wrote: I just did.
"According to some researchers, the “cultural specificity” of intelligence makes IQ tests biased towards the environments in which they were developed – namely white, Western society."
The countries which have the highest IQ averages according to this list I am looking at says that those countries are neither white nor western.
If you want a specific article read, link the article so that we can all analyse it.
If the average "intelligence" in China is so high, why does no one in the country know how to stand on an escalator? (proof: come to China and see for yourself). While we're making sweeping generalizations here, I'd venture to say scoring higher on things like IQ tests is pretty much unavoidable when parents and teachers literally beat students into academic submission from a young age into adulthood. China and countries in its sphere of cultural influence have a long, well-documented history of valuing standardized test scores (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_examination), so it's not surprising if aggregately Chinese people and other Asians still score higher on standardized tests, "western" or not. Is IQ a meaningful measurement? Probably not. If so, please explain how. Otherwise, I don't see why you'd even bother to bring it up. Show nested quote + BTW, I know nothing about your formal "education," but I am going to venture a guess that formally, I am much more educated than you. Informally, I have read many more books, and own a private library that is much larger than yours.
P. S. In the old times, IQ testing was a strategy some used to remove the very "social cleansing" you are referring to.
This is like the pseudo-intellectual equivalent of "do you even lift bro?" dude you should see my personal library! its so big I must be a genius! /s
|
lmao fairness is a uniquely English/western concept? You're definitely trolling at this point. "My mom's a hypocrite and words can't always be translated directly....therefore Chinese people have no understanding of the concept of fairness!"
|
On May 29 2020 12:03 reincremate wrote: lmao fairness is a uniquely English/western concept? You're definitely trolling at this point. "My mom's a hypocrite and words can't always be translated directly....therefore Chinese people have no understanding of the concept of fairness!"
There is no direct translation for that word in any other language. Prove me wrong if you can. Otherwise you are just making my point by being here to call me names, not really having anything to say yourself.
P.S. I suppose this notion of fairness even extends to notions like "fair play." Modern sport as we know it first became a thing in England.
|
In case anyone's wondering, 公平 (gongping) is Chinese for fair/fairness. The concept exists in China, as it does in every human culture.
|
It does not mean the same thing. In English, the word "fair" back in time had nothing to do with the notion of law.
China has always had a sense of "peace" and public vs. private. Those are ancient Chinese values which go far back in time. The western notion of "fairness" is something else altogether. The word comes from Anglo-Saxon, and originally, meant something different, as you can see in Shakespeare's "Fair is foul and foul is fair." But I believe that the term as we presently use it came into its own with the advent of mass sports in England.
|
On May 29 2020 15:43 MoltkeWarding wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2020 12:03 reincremate wrote: lmao fairness is a uniquely English/western concept? You're definitely trolling at this point. "My mom's a hypocrite and words can't always be translated directly....therefore Chinese people have no understanding of the concept of fairness!" There is no direct translation for that word in any other language. Prove me wrong if you can. Otherwise you are just making my point by being here to call me names, not really having anything to say yourself.
How would that be possible for you or what would be the benefit for us? Given your postings thus far, I'm not sure you could possibly agree. It seems you take steps sideways and follow up any proof by saying it's not the translation you are looking for, even though you, as non-native, probably have a hard time to judge if the correct idiom is used.
In German it's the word "recht" or "gerecht", which would fulfill your requirements and there's an entire philosphy behind what that construct might mean. German fair play ideology summed up by the English philosophers of Monty Python:
Hegel is arguing that the reality is merely an a priori adjunct of non-naturalistic ethics, Kant via the categorical imperative is holding that ontologically it exists only in the imagination, and Marx is claiming it was offside.
|
On May 29 2020 23:40 GeckoXp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2020 15:43 MoltkeWarding wrote:On May 29 2020 12:03 reincremate wrote: lmao fairness is a uniquely English/western concept? You're definitely trolling at this point. "My mom's a hypocrite and words can't always be translated directly....therefore Chinese people have no understanding of the concept of fairness!" There is no direct translation for that word in any other language. Prove me wrong if you can. Otherwise you are just making my point by being here to call me names, not really having anything to say yourself. How would that be possible for you or what would be the benefit for us? Given your postings thus far, I'm not sure you could possibly agree. It seems you take steps sideways and follow up any proof by saying it's not the translation you are looking for, even though you, as non-native, probably have a hard time to judge if the correct idiom is used. In German it's the word "recht" or "gerecht", which would fulfill your requirements and there's an entire philosphy behind what that construct might mean. German fair play ideology summed up by the English philosophers of Monty Python: Show nested quote + Hegel is arguing that the reality is merely an a priori adjunct of non-naturalistic ethics, Kant via the categorical imperative is holding that ontologically it exists only in the imagination, and Marx is claiming it was offside.
There are better translations for those words from German. "Recht" is "right" or the "law." Gerecht is "just," which comes pretty close to the meaning of that very English word "fair," but the word "fair" does not have anything to do with any notions of justice. I think the homage first came from sport.
I think the way the guy replied before you strikes up another massive difference in Asian ethics. How they are rather consequentialist in comparison to Western ethics. They will think: if I do X and Y, Z will happen. It is a very different way of thinking.
P.S. I just did a short google of whether you could translate that word from English into any other language. I speak several languages, and nothing is a direct translation for me. There was some debate about the notion when I searched about it, but one poster said:
"PS. Of course Poles borrowed the word and an angry child's outburst would just as likely be "To nie fair!" as "To nieuczciwe!". Or "To nie w porządku!" ("That's not right!")."
Everyone has a notion of what is right or wrong, what is permissible by law, etc. Fairness is something else altogether.
|
The birthplace of humanity was Ethiopia which has an IQ of 63.
If the United States has an IQ of 100, I would not be surprised if the IQ of South Korea was 140 and the IQ of Japan was 145. That is just based on the IQ of Ethiopia.
edit:
Actually according to my calculations the net IQ of:
China: 189,000,000,000 United States: 32,800,000,000
So China is really 6 times smarter than the United States. The only question is why the United States and Europe were richer than China to this point in history.
In the FBW Discord it has been argued that IQ has a very high correlation to financial success and health. So you should think China would be far in the space age compared to where it is.
Maybe China is just unlucky?
|
On May 30 2020 00:29 MoltkeWarding wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2020 23:40 GeckoXp wrote:On May 29 2020 15:43 MoltkeWarding wrote:On May 29 2020 12:03 reincremate wrote: lmao fairness is a uniquely English/western concept? You're definitely trolling at this point. "My mom's a hypocrite and words can't always be translated directly....therefore Chinese people have no understanding of the concept of fairness!" There is no direct translation for that word in any other language. Prove me wrong if you can. Otherwise you are just making my point by being here to call me names, not really having anything to say yourself. How would that be possible for you or what would be the benefit for us? Given your postings thus far, I'm not sure you could possibly agree. It seems you take steps sideways and follow up any proof by saying it's not the translation you are looking for, even though you, as non-native, probably have a hard time to judge if the correct idiom is used. In German it's the word "recht" or "gerecht", which would fulfill your requirements and there's an entire philosphy behind what that construct might mean. German fair play ideology summed up by the English philosophers of Monty Python: Hegel is arguing that the reality is merely an a priori adjunct of non-naturalistic ethics, Kant via the categorical imperative is holding that ontologically it exists only in the imagination, and Marx is claiming it was offside.
There are better translations for those words from German. "Recht" is "right" or the "law." Gerecht is "just," which comes pretty close to the meaning of that very English word "fair," but the word "fair" does not have anything to do with any notions of justice. I think the homage first came from sport. I think the way the guy replied before you strikes up another massive difference in Asian ethics. How they are rather consequentialist in comparison to Western ethics. They will think: if I do X and Y, Z will happen. It is a very different way of thinking. P.S. I just did a short google of whether you could translate that word from English into any other language. I speak several languages, and nothing is a direct translation for me. There was some debate about the notion when I searched about it, but one poster said: "PS. Of course Poles borrowed the word and an angry child's outburst would just as likely be "To nie fair!" as "To nieuczciwe!". Or "To nie w porządku!" ("That's not right!")." Everyone has a notion of what is right or wrong, what is permissible by law, etc. Fairness is something else altogether.
You have just proven my point, the hint towards the categorical imperative is right there, embedded in the sports metaphor. I'm pretty sure I have chosen a suitable idiom, yet you appear to side step out of the argument by hinting to two different languages. German words can have several meanings depending on context, as many languages do, even without using any of the compounds along the way. Trust me, there's more to a language than being able to have a conversation about a specific (every day) topic, especially when you try to discuss ethical/social constructs.
|
I do not know what you are getting at, unless you are taking that consequentialist view yourself. But then you have to ask yourself: if there any point to writing on a Starcraft forum? Do I even play Starcraft?
What do you mean by "you appear to side step out of the argument by hinting to two different languages"?
Do you mean English and German or Chinese? Which two of them? I speak all three languages, and I am addressing each person one at a time. To your issues, if you speak English and German, and to his issues, if he speaks English and Chinese.
Well, I am not talking about languages for daily use. Obviously I use them in that way too. But the entire philosophy of language...if your language cannot express a certain idea, how can you even understand that idea? I mean, there are many things you can say in Chinese which I know that are not translatable into any European language. I watched some of my childhood TV shows with some English subtitles, and I can only helplessly shake my head as I think: wrong, wrong, wrong! But then if I think about it, there is really no translation for what is said at all.
We think in language. What we can even potentially learn depends on what we speak.
|
There is a theory of evolution to language. Language shapes the world according to perception and function. It would only be remarkable if language were circular. We cannot really inform our perception based on our syntax.
|
Well, language evolves...but language also borrows from other languages. If that originally English notion of "fair" makes it into German one day, maybe it will just be as the word "fair."
English itself is a kind of a mess with its etymology. The greater part of it came from three sources. Anglo-Saxon, French and Latin. Sometimes, many words would express the same thing in English, because once Englishmen spoke different languages.
I just learned that Finnish for "German" is "Saksan." To the Finns, all Germans are Saxons in their language. Goes a long way back, obviously.
The other issue is the English pronunciation of "R." Americans do not pronounce the same "R" as Englishmen. Even Englishmen do not pronounce the same "R" as other Englishmen. You can put the word "fair" into French or German or Russian...but how will it sound like? Which standard will they even try to adapt to, and ultimately probably fail in?
|
It is interesting to think about the metaphysical properties of language. My favorite book is of course Magister Ludi by Hermann Hesse. We do not get a clear image of the relation between physical reality and perception. History, language, and physics are all connected by causation. But what is the shape of the ordering relation?
|
Moltke, I expected you to be above sham marriages given your stringent standards for a potential spouse. It is a shame your standards have been shaken by the slightest turbulence in your life.
PS: In Russian, "fair" is usually translated as "Справедливая" (this is the female-gendered adjective, but it can obviously be presented in male, neutral, plural, respetful/reverent form, etc.) - phonetically, "spravedlivaya" (where the "aya" is that feminine conjugatuin, the male being "i'y", etc.). The root word, etymologically speaking, is "truth" (you may be aware of the ironic naming of the "Pravda" newspaper). A similar, related word is "исправлено" which means "corrected" and has the same root. It is fair to say that the word/root for "truth" is a dirty slut in the Russian language, especially in the past few centuries, but the point I am making is that "fair" is directly related to "truth." It skips justice or any positive connotation and goes directly to the source, IMO.
|
No one considered sham marriages. It was only put on the table as one of those crazy "options" that I theoretically had if I did not want to get deported. Now I do not know. I was informed by some other source that I had nothing to worry about legally. I will try calling back and getting more information soon.
I do not know about that word, Spravedlibaya. My Russian is still too noob to ever have encountered that word. I am wondering about translations of that word, but I am not sure yet.
|
United States996 Posts
re: iq stuff - its mostly a measure for short term job performance and/or finding cognitive deficits. it (wais-iv) correlates to some other stuff too but those are the main uses in the field. iq scores are fluid, not fixed and are impacted by myriad factors (though you wouldn't ever really see someone to go from 100 to 130 because of a few more years of school). in terms of iq scores for african americans, the average iq difference is ~halved when you adjust for SES. the more variables you control for, the closer the scores become (years of schooling accounting for one of the next largest shares of the variance and then cultural bias in questioning). still, differences exist. the remaining score differences are generally conceptualized as a an indicator of lifelong restriction to some percentage of opportunities.
re: iq score differences across other countries - same rationale follows. some tests will be translated and renormed for the correct population better than other tests. its not something i'm super knowledgeable about. as useful as iq tests are, they have many failings. do they measure whatever it is that most people generally assume they do? no. are they the best measure of that effort that we have? maybe - but again, given fluidity of iq scores and susceptibility of influence through environmental factors, reading anything biological into iq scores per country would be a massive overstep. but it could in part be looked at as systemic restrictions to opportunities (but again, those opportunities that would improve scores on iq tests are generally defined by western cultures as being important). iq tests have pretty massive blind spots for certain populations that excel as well (e.g. highly creative people). its easy to imagine how culture might shape exceptionally smart people who would still perform poorly on iq tests.
On May 30 2020 02:33 MoltkeWarding wrote: We think in language. What we can even potentially learn depends on what we speak. some people have no internal monologues. you could say people think out loud through speech, or use another internal type of experience/sense modality (e.g. mental imagery) as a form of language, and I wouldn't fault that usage of the word. just a bit of a nitpick - and then an opinion - i think people actually vary a reasonable amount in how they think (consider/manipulate/conceptualize/rehearse) information (through type of inner experience probably).
|
Just to add on to what Liquid`Zephyr said about the intersectionality of IQ tests, in one of my cognitive science classes the professor used this example (roughly, from memory):
Researchers arrive to the Amazon rain forest, with an IQ test that they successfully launched in a number of countries. The feedback they got from the Mexico City, Moscow, New York City, Rio de Janeiro, and Tokyo trials has all been positive. Eager to see how the Amazonian war chief performs on this test, they hand him the paper and pencil.
The only problem is that the Amazonian war chief has never used a paper or a pencil. He has never taken a test. He doesn't know how to write or read. The first question asks you to make a parallel analogy to "bus : car" but the war chief has never seen any of those either.
After trying over and over to make the test approachable for the Amazonian people, the researchers finally cleared all of the hurdles that they perceived to be present. In the end, the Amazonians had an average IQ of 70. Satisfied with this answer, the researchers begin to head home, led by their Amazonian guide who has a mental map consisting of hundreds of landmarks in a 10 mile radius, their bellies full of elusive wild boar which the Amazonians caught in a complex and coordinated fashion, their skin covered in an Amazonian natural balm of 14 oils and minerals that protects them from mosquitoes which was meticulously derived through careful trial and error, with their guide having a home-made anti-venom prepared just in case anyone gets bit by a poisonous snake that is local to the area.
Upon reaching the edge of civilization, the researchers finally confer about their results, outside of earshot of the Amazonian guide: "I can't believe these idiots can survive in the jungle with such a low IQ."
|
On June 08 2020 15:46 MoltkeWarding wrote: I do not know about that word, Spravedlibaya. My Russian is still too noob to ever have encountered that word. I am wondering about translations of that word, but I am not sure yet. Only put it because you were asking for the translation of "fair." Spravedlivaya*
PS: The "s-" prefix is Indo-European meaning "good," so the word is a feminine adjective of "good truth," though the "good" much less colloquially apparent/known.
|
We do not have any recorded history of the amazonian peoples because of our lack of knowledge of any written language which has been decoded. However in theory, there must be some way of getting at the IQ for even pre-literate peoples. I do not know how they conduct IQ tests for illiterate peoples, but they must have some manner of doing so for all those peoples who can not read or write.
Obviously, IQ has no correlation with survival. We have done some testing on some higher apes, some of whom we have also taught how to communicate in reasonable sign language. It brings to mind about how sapient homo sapiens really are, when the IQ estimates for some apes exceed the averages for some human countries. I have no doubt that those apes can taught in the use of common human tools too.
The link between memory and IQ is another one of those questionable things. Interestingly, the more you can remember, the higher your fluid IQ seems to be, but there is no correlation with how you remember them. That is another thing that I was thinking about. Maybe some countries in the world average very high IQs because they remember a lot of things. But we are back to that "Asian creativity deficit" problem. They have very high IQs, but they do not seem to ever innovate. I do not know, but perhaps the more things you have to remember, the fewer new things you can learn.
|
The point is that IQ tests designed by Western scientists for populations which they are not intimately familiar with, in an effort to compare multiple populations, are inherently flawed - and there is a ton of literature on that. The average IQ of the entire human race would necessarily have to be 100 by nature of the test design, and for every individual population as well. A more accurate IQ map of every country and peoples on the planet would just be 100s covering the entire globe. It is impossible to control for every element of culture, lifestyle, SES, and upbringing to a satisfactory point, and designing a test that is completely "fair", after which comparisons can be made.
PS: The Amazonian warchief was a hypothetical extreme to demonstrate most clearly the types of faults that occur when trying to apply standardized tests intersectionally - it was not meant to be taken literally, but as a figurative expression of the types of pitfalls that international IQ comparisons have historically had.
EDIT: PPS: There is definitely a link between IQ and survival, otherwise there would never have been a reason for us to advance to the point of having a concept of IQ in the first place. We are scantly haired apes with a severely limited arsenal of physically imposing factors. The only thing we have going for us is a now absent or nearly vestigial stamina. The provider hypothesis of evolutionary psychology postulates that our evolution was sparked by our ability to hunt, which for us as apes hinged necessarily on communication, teamwork, the use of tools and tactics, etc. These are all factors of IQ, in my opinion. You may be familiar with some of the more broad approaches to intelligence, such as Gardner's "Theory of Multiple Intelligences" which is composed of 8 factors. There are others, numbering upwards of 13 and beyond. We currently don't have a comprehensive understanding to determine which theory/approach is most accurate, much less so an ability to universally measure any of them to a satisfactory standard. Thus, it is an acceptable topic to discuss but it is largely a matter of opinion, and my opinion is that your opinion is too restricted by a dependence on what is essentially a faulty and dated approach to answering the question.
|
|
|
|
|
|