• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 06:22
CET 12:22
KST 20:22
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners11Intel X Team Liquid Seoul event: Showmatches and Meet the Pros10[ASL20] Finals Preview: Arrival13TL.net Map Contest #21: Voting12[ASL20] Ro4 Preview: Descent11
Community News
[TLMC] Fall/Winter 2025 Ladder Map Rotation4Weekly Cups (Nov 3-9): Clem Conquers in Canada4SC: Evo Complete - Ranked Ladder OPEN ALPHA8StarCraft, SC2, HotS, WC3, Returning to Blizzcon!45$5,000+ WardiTV 2025 Championship7
StarCraft 2
General
[TLMC] Fall/Winter 2025 Ladder Map Rotation Mech is the composition that needs teleportation t Weekly Cups (Nov 3-9): Clem Conquers in Canada Craziest Micro Moments Of All Time? SC: Evo Complete - Ranked Ladder OPEN ALPHA
Tourneys
Constellation Cup - Main Event - Stellar Fest Tenacious Turtle Tussle Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament $5,000+ WardiTV 2025 Championship Merivale 8 Open - LAN - Stellar Fest
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 499 Chilling Adaptation Mutation # 498 Wheel of Misfortune|Cradle of Death Mutation # 497 Battle Haredened Mutation # 496 Endless Infection
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion FlaSh on: Biggest Problem With SnOw's Playstyle Terran 1:35 12 Gas Optimization BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ [ASL20] Ask the mapmakers — Drop your questions
Tourneys
[BSL21] RO32 Group D - Sunday 21:00 CET [BSL21] RO32 Group C - Saturday 21:00 CET [ASL20] Grand Finals [Megathread] Daily Proleagues
Strategy
Current Meta PvZ map balance How to stay on top of macro? Soma's 9 hatch build from ASL Game 2
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Should offensive tower rushing be viable in RTS games? Path of Exile Dawn of War IV
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread SPIRED by.ASL Mafia {211640}
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Canadian Politics Mega-thread The Games Industry And ATVI
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! Korean Music Discussion Series you have seen recently...
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NBA General Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023 TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
SC2 Client Relocalization [Change SC2 Language] Linksys AE2500 USB WIFI keeps disconnecting Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Dyadica Gospel – a Pulp No…
Hildegard
Coffee x Performance in Espo…
TrAiDoS
Saturation point
Uldridge
DnB/metal remix FFO Mick Go…
ImbaTosS
Reality "theory" prov…
perfectspheres
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1191 users

Where it all went wrong

Blogs > LegalLord
Post a Reply
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
August 28 2016 20:00 GMT
#1
So I just finished writing up a sequel to an old project, a treatise on balance in Brood War based on statistical analysis. While writing things up, there was one graph that was part of that writeup that made me feel particularly sad:

[image loading]


Following one of its most active points in 2009, Brood War progaming suffered an absolutely brutal, and ultimately fatal, decline in just a few years. But more important than the game count, is just simply how that time period was for those who were there.

My original TL account has a join date of 27 April, 2010. I came somewhat late to the BW scene, and I only started paying attention to the game maybe a year before that, in 2009. But I remember that I was there to see how quickly and painfully the scene came crumbling down. I originally came from the Command & Conquer community, which by that time had lost a lot of its luster. In Brood War, I found a game that I could appreciate just as much as the C&C games I loved.

2009 was a pretty optimistic time for the game - the BW scene was well developed, and SC2 was still held in high regard by just about everyone as the wave of the future. In fact, a few friends of mine suggested that I try BW, as a way to prepare for the release of SC2 which was slated to be the next amazing RTS. Ultimately, I ended up enjoying BW in its own right, especially because of its vibrant progaming scene. The ability to watch games that were broadcasted on TV really added a lot to the experience, and I know I spent many nights watching games that were broadcasted at 4:00 in the morning because that was when they were live.

2010 was a rough patch. About the time I joined TL, the two big controversies that would ultimately be the end of the pro scene surfaced: the Blizzard-KeSPA dispute over IP rights, and the match fixing scandal. The immediate casualty of the former was the loss of the eSTRO team (the owner of which was in BW for broadcasting rights), and the latter cost us the Hite Sparkyz team (which lost its lineup to match fixing). But for the time being, things went on.

Ultimately, Blizzard did manage to come to an agreement with OGN, MBC, and KeSPA on broadcasting rights, and the match fixers were banned from BW and prosecuted. But the damage was done. The Blizzard dispute contributed in no small part to a rift between the BW and SC2 communities, with the BW community fearing for the survival of their game (incidentally, the reverse happened whenever SC2 progamers quit to return to BW, which is why I really don't like BW players who are jerks about that happening). The match fixing scandal was worse; eventually it simply destroyed the ability of BW to acquire sponsors for its tournaments.

In 2010 and for many years before, there were three OSLs and three MSLs per year. In 2011, there were one of each. In 2012, MBCGame closed, citing match fixing as the primary cause. OGN managed to host one more OSL in 2012, which would end up being the last one for BW. Around that time, a lot of progaming teams either closed down or at least left BW.

More than the events that caused the progaming scene to end, I remember the events that truly destroyed my own personal interest in the BW scene. The end of MBCGame was one of them; it was an event so brutal and significant that I could not see the progaming scene survive it. The second was the hybrid Proleague format - Bo3 of BW, Bo3 of SC2, then an SC2 ace match. I've joked before that the Bisu vs. Flash ace match in the SPL Finals was the last true game of BW. Now that I think about it, perhaps it was at least true for me personally. I saw a lot of series in the hybrid format that involved 2-0 victories in BW, 1-2 loss in SC2, then a loss in the ace match (leading to an overall loss), which really just made the BW part of the league seem absolutely irrelevant. Soon after, the last OSL concluded and there was a full switch to SC2.

My own interest in the scene never recovered. Out of the ashes of the BW progaming scene came the Afreeca amateur scene, with a few leagues, and in a way BW went on. In fact, the SSL was popular enough that it managed to have one of its leagues broadcasted on OGN. But it never really felt anything like what progaming was back in the old days.

Anyone who remembers me knows that I was a huge fan of Bisu back in the day. I watched two individual leagues pretty closely: SSL 9 and SSL 10, both of which had Bisu vs by.hero in the finals. And yet, I remember my thoughts after watching each of those finals:
SSL 9 (Bisu 3-2 hero): "Bisu won, but he really played terribly. If he had his usual skill level he would have won this one 3-0 given how weakly hero played."
SSL 10 (Bisu 0-3 hero): "Played just as badly as last time, just punished harder for being so inflexible. I'm not surprised."

Doesn't really sound like the words of a huge fan, does it? In recent times I've often been in the awkward position of being critical of Bisu while others defend him, a far cry from how things were back in the day.

These days, I'm mostly here on TL for the community (which is wonderful), specifically the General forums. SC2 never appealed to me, and I only very occasionally pay attention to BW. The leagues and games still exist, but somehow it lost the magic it had back then. I know I'm not the only one who feels this way - many others I've talked to feel as I do, and most of the people I remember from 2012 and earlier no longer visit TL.

I commend those who still contribute to the scene - the writers, casters, and programmers - who still have the interest and dedication to continue to make content for BW. I know that it's an effort that a lot of people appreciate, and it's unfortunate that I no longer have that sort of interest in the game.

History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Espers
Profile Joined August 2009
United Kingdom606 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-08-29 09:28:06
August 29 2016 09:26 GMT
#2
BW was on the decline long before the match-fixing, if you look up viewer attendance at PL finals it peaked in 2004-2006 with 100k or so. It dipped down at 30k in 2008 (it rained heavily), long before SC2 or the match-fixing. Then I believe in the next few years it actually did better and stabilized somewhat.

It's a bit of a myth that match-fixing killed BW, it was more due to an already waning interest plus the emergence of SC2 and LoL which were the big cash cows at the time.
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-07-03 00:20:03
August 29 2016 12:04 GMT
#3
I only partially agree. Yes, I do think that BW was already on the decline, and that its life was limited. It may be telling that SC2 itself seems to be in its waning years and is kind of small compared to LoL, CS, DotA, and the like. 2006 was, as I recall, the peak of attendance at the PL finals.

But at the same time I think that match fixing gave it an early, and disgraceful, death. That was what killed most of the goodwill of sponsors and led to the loss of MBC. If not for that, BW would probably have seen a slow decline. Instead, the game crashed in the span of two years.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
ArvickHero
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
10387 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-08-29 13:29:38
August 29 2016 13:14 GMT
#4
On August 29 2016 18:26 Espers wrote:
BW was on the decline long before the match-fixing, if you look up viewer attendance at PL finals it peaked in 2004-2006 with 100k or so. It dipped down at 30k in 2008 (it rained heavily), long before SC2 or the match-fixing. Then I believe in the next few years it actually did better and stabilized somewhat.

It's a bit of a myth that match-fixing killed BW, it was more due to an already waning interest plus the emergence of SC2 and LoL which were the big cash cows at the time.

on the decline =/= death. I think BW would have remained stable and still have a healthy pro scene today if it weren't for the one-two punch by Blizzard's lawsuit and the match-fixing controversy. Yes, LoL has far eclipsed BW's popularity at this point, but SC2 never really managed to grab hold in Korea the way BW ever did.. SC2 would never have managed to displace BW on its own. BW fulfills a certain niche in eSports that LoL can't (1v1, as opposed to teams), and more importantly, it had history. The fact that it still somewhat survives into today, without the support of Blizzard, is a testament to its fans and how compelling the game is...

I sympathize with LegalLord with how he feels about today's scene. At first, I found it all to be extremely fun; games and players were full of style and personality, even if it was a lower level of play from before. But, whether it was from the novelty wearing off, or from the more stylish amateurs being displaced by expros who were, quite frankly, only shells of themselves ..... or just real life priorities taking over in general, my interest in the scene faded as well.

On one hand, I feel a huge amount of empathy towards these expros who still play. If you were some freakish genius, it would maybe take you at least 3 years before you got a televised game--mere mortals could expect to toil away for 5+ years before getting any such opportunity. The game is so demanding, so impossible, and so filled with nuance, that it required you to dedicate a freakish amount of time on a daily basis in order to stay in shape at the highest of levels--moreso than any other eSports game out there. Imagine, to have spent all that time honing your craft, only for it to be rendered useless. Your choices are to either retire and maybe stream, or switch to a game that's sort of similar (but not really). It sucks and I know that, had I grown up in Korea instead of the States, this might have been a situation I would have had to face myself ..

On the other hand .. the Pandora's Box has already been opened. When I see them play in tournament now, I can't help but compare it to how meticulous and smart their gameplay was before. I can't help but wonder about what could have been..... and I can't help but feel a little disappointed by what I see today. Still, I'm glad that a number of expros are able to make a living today off of their skills that they've invested so much time into .. but my pessimistic view on things is that this is pretty much the end of the line. Without new blood, without the means to completely devote your time to training and breaking new ground, the game (as a "competitive scene") is destined to fade away when the old stars of yesteryear finally stop streaming. I hope, as we move through the next decade, that I'm proven wrong. We'll see!
Writerptrk
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 8m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Reynor 221
SortOf 175
RotterdaM 116
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 43883
Calm 3740
Hyuk 3153
Rain 2758
Horang2 1930
Flash 930
Backho 892
Bisu 834
Pusan 355
Soma 303
[ Show more ]
Stork 227
Last 183
Rush 120
ZerO 93
Soulkey 91
zelot 61
hero 55
sSak 40
Barracks 37
Aegong 33
JulyZerg 32
NaDa 31
Killer 31
Icarus 16
Noble 13
Terrorterran 12
Hm[arnc] 6
Dota 2
XcaliburYe219
Counter-Strike
fl0m1912
olofmeister1040
shoxiejesuss429
x6flipin368
oskar80
allub50
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King150
Other Games
ceh9631
B2W.Neo324
crisheroes273
Pyrionflax265
QueenE27
ZerO(Twitch)6
Organizations
StarCraft 2
WardiTV27
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 12 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Adnapsc2 17
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• iopq 1
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Upcoming Events
OSC
8m
Percival vs Cham
Spirit vs Harstem
Cure vs TBD
Krystianer vs TBD
Kung Fu Cup
38m
Classic vs Solar
herO vs Cure
Reynor vs GuMiho
ByuN vs ShoWTimE
Tenacious Turtle Tussle
11h 38m
The PondCast
22h 38m
RSL Revival
22h 38m
Solar vs Zoun
MaxPax vs Bunny
Kung Fu Cup
1d
WardiTV Korean Royale
1d
PiGosaur Monday
1d 13h
RSL Revival
1d 22h
Classic vs Creator
Cure vs TriGGeR
Kung Fu Cup
2 days
[ Show More ]
CranKy Ducklings
2 days
RSL Revival
2 days
herO vs Gerald
ByuN vs SHIN
Kung Fu Cup
3 days
IPSL
3 days
ZZZero vs rasowy
Napoleon vs KameZerg
BSL 21
3 days
Tarson vs Julia
Doodle vs OldBoy
eOnzErG vs WolFix
StRyKeR vs Aeternum
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
RSL Revival
3 days
Reynor vs sOs
Maru vs Ryung
Kung Fu Cup
4 days
WardiTV Korean Royale
4 days
BSL 21
4 days
JDConan vs Semih
Dragon vs Dienmax
Tech vs NewOcean
TerrOr vs Artosis
IPSL
4 days
Dewalt vs WolFix
eOnzErG vs Bonyth
Wardi Open
5 days
Monday Night Weeklies
5 days
WardiTV Korean Royale
6 days
The PondCast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-11-07
Stellar Fest: Constellation Cup
Eternal Conflict S1

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
SOOP Univ League 2025
YSL S2
BSL Season 21
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual

Upcoming

SLON Tour Season 2
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
HSC XXVIII
RSL Offline Finals
WardiTV 2025
RSL Revival: Season 3
META Madness #9
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026: Closed Qualifier
eXTREMESLAND 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
SL Budapest Major 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.