I just had a GM player struggling in ZvT ask me for some advice. I ended up having a bit of a think about it and writing out a whole bunch of advice around the generic macro and the sneaky/weird options that are out there. So I figured why share it, might as well put it out for all those struggling players. Btw I know the spore can root slightly faster, and the queen shoots slightly further, but I don't think either of those will shift the meta too much.
ZvT is hard atm. It's really tough. If you want to play super straight up macro - I still think the rule of 1-gas LBM or LBC(corrupter) ZvT is pretty solid and can get you to super high levels.
There's also super typical roach-ravager infestor ultra.
(No written build for this, but watch this VoD: - even though in this example it fails due to bomber being super greedy and Dark being excessively safe)
However these take some pretty good mechanics and a lot of practice. For myself - I spend most of my playtime working on my Terran and Protoss at the moment. That + doing content all the time means mechanically I'm a grandma - I can't play macro in ZvT. It did my head in for a while because I LOVED ZvT in LoTV earlier on. However now Vs the best players I have to mix in some mindgames and all-ins so they won't play too greedy, but as long as I keep them honest with that I can still take ladder games off the likes of Polt etc. in somewhat greedy yet relatively straight up macro games. Or at least I could - a month or so ago.
These days I can't do that because I'm out of zerg-practice. My mechanics are appalling. But I still know how to win with those builds. Key points are build-refinement. Understanding. Camera hotkey usage. Steal hotkey usage. Splitting up your army effectively to deal with drops and reacting quickly vs libs, focus-firing medivacs with queens etc, that's all super clutch with these styles. This should all be a bit easier with the spore and queen changes.
Now to the dirty and weird stuff...
What I've been having more success with lately is sneaky, aggressive, all-in and tempo based play.
I even managed to sneak a win off Iaguz with a hatch-gas-pool build where I skip the queen in the main and go immediately to lair for incredibly fast mutas. It's a ridiculous build, but I actually got a lot of wins with it because the tempo is so valuable and Terrans struggle to adjust. This style and Railgan's build below revolve around waves of aggression and tech-switches. Hitting with fast mutas to force a reaction, and usually liberator production is fantastic because all those turrets and liberators SUCK vs roach-ravager. If you ever end up vsing pure bio with roach-ravager you can destroy it with bile zoning because they don't have the range advantage. If they have more than a few tankivacs shelling down on you though, zoning units out and maintaining concaves just doesn't cut it. You've gotta hit surprising, hard and fast timings with these styles.
Go to 33 minutes in the previous VoD, the third game analysed in that video shows me analysing how I do this build and why it's amazing. Even though I mess it up in that game.
This is so friggin good, I've won so many tournament games seemingly easy because the waves of aggression take the wind out of the Terran's sails. They struggle to find their pressure timings and you don't have to be on the backfoot so much.
It also has multiple variations, you can skip the RW and just go really fast 2-base muta immediately etc.
The Dragon-Turtle ZvT is insanely good in the current meta and I heavily advise that one - I even took a game off Polt with it on my first day trying it out. - though with little experience with Roach-Ravager you might need to hold off on that and use a more basic build. This build isn't really that aggressive, it just gives you an excess of units, upgrades and tech early to make defence relatively easy. It denies Terran's ability to put you on the backfoot and gives your units some great efficiency.
I also sometimes use "the stupid nydus" which is a name I just came up with cos it's bloody stupid but it works. It's your oldschool typical 2-gas, 29 drone roach-queen nydus, except you check what build they're doing and time it to hit as they're halfway across the map with the fast pressure. I've mis-timed it the last few times in tournaments so it fell flat - but in theory it should crush face, especially vs your 1-1-1 and 2-1-1 builds. I just haven't practiced it enough to get the timing right under pressure and was hitting too fast. No VoDs or notes on this one yet, but a reminder that a brutal all-in to keep your enemy honest can work wonders.
Anyway so there's more aggressive, tempo and weird styles you can work on or the classic macro styles. Up to you.
Love the daily on Losira's 1 evo opener for ZvT, I've been experimenting with something similar myself with great success. I also love that queener-lords are being used in progames - they are so good at shutting down the more annoying forms of T harass.
Can you break the Dragon Turtle ZvT gameplan into stages, so that I can practice it more efficiently?
I use mainly Railgan's build vs Terran these days, and it does great (at least in Diamond league), but it cannot be played on all maps, so I'd like to have another gameplan. Dragon Turtle ZvT could be the one. As you did in this one:
BTW, that one is a good explanation for the Gameplan you suggested first.
I been doing some speed and lair before queen > expand. This gives me ability to scout terran base with overseer or lord speed and I usually drop a spire for some corruptors to deflect any air. Those corruptors can usually pick off at least a depot as a result. I also drop a hydra den and tech lurkers while taking the 3rd base.
Not really sure how terrible this is, but it seemed to work ok in most cases.
Just wanted to say that I love your content, PiG. I've missed this kind of things ever since Day9 dailies stopped and it's amazing that someone is bringing it back. You're great and I hope you keep doing what you're doing.
I don't play SC2 anymore but still respect you for putting all this content out there for all players. It is great for people new to the game to have an up to date resource.
Can you break the Dragon Turtle ZvT gameplan into stages, so that I can practice it more efficiently?
I use mainly Railgan's build vs Terran these days, and it does great (at least in Diamond league), but it cannot be played on all maps, so I'd like to have another gameplan. Dragon Turtle ZvT could be the one. As you did in this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EW0P-qL0qxI
BTW, that one is a good explanation for the Gameplan you suggested first.
Hmm, Probably go for a roach speed +1 or +2 carapace mass roach ravager timing. Probably off 5-gas, 12 drones on minerals on the 3rd. So that way you just focus on the opening into a huge timing.
Next stage would be adding infestors and playing mass roach-ravager infestor with it (same as in that video)
Final stage would be going right up to hive playing the full style.
However based on style you might want to swap infestor stage for more bane-drop focus and counter-attacks.
On July 07 2016 20:13 MarlieChurphy wrote: I been doing some speed and lair before queen > expand. This gives me ability to scout terran base with overseer or lord speed and I usually drop a spire for some corruptors to deflect any air. Those corruptors can usually pick off at least a depot as a result. I also drop a hydra den and tech lurkers while taking the 3rd base.
Not really sure how terrible this is, but it seemed to work ok in most cases.
You can play however you like as long as you make logical changes and adjustments to make it work. I'm always a big believer that right up to top GM you can make super creative, weird styles work. So if it's working, keep it up!
On July 08 2016 07:21 KelsierSC wrote: I don't play SC2 anymore but still respect you for putting all this content out there for all players. It is great for people new to the game to have an up to date resource.
Hop n and play some games! Put ego to the side and just revel in the chaos of LoTV! It's damned fun as long as you treat it as a new game very different to HoTS or WoL. There's always time for a game or two :D
Can you break the Dragon Turtle ZvT gameplan into stages, so that I can practice it more efficiently?
I use mainly Railgan's build vs Terran these days, and it does great (at least in Diamond league), but it cannot be played on all maps, so I'd like to have another gameplan. Dragon Turtle ZvT could be the one. As you did in this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EW0P-qL0qxI
BTW, that one is a good explanation for the Gameplan you suggested first.
Hmm, Probably go for a roach speed +1 or +2 carapace mass roach ravager timing. Probably off 5-gas, 12 drones on minerals on the 3rd. So that way you just focus on the opening into a huge timing.
Next stage would be adding infestors and playing mass roach-ravager infestor with it (same as in that video)
Final stage would be going right up to hive playing the full style.
However based on style you might want to swap infestor stage for more bane-drop focus and counter-attacks.
Thank you, I just practiced today the second stage with a practice friend to learn the gameplan you presented in the link I gave. So I already have my first two wins with this style. The only part left to practice is the usage of the ultras in the third stage. It seems they should be split and do damage where they can, and avoid liberators and all the counter ultra things. Speaking about liberators, does corruptors are enough vs mass liberators, or should vipers abduct them so that they are no longer a threat for the ultras?
Can you break the Dragon Turtle ZvT gameplan into stages, so that I can practice it more efficiently?
I use mainly Railgan's build vs Terran these days, and it does great (at least in Diamond league), but it cannot be played on all maps, so I'd like to have another gameplan. Dragon Turtle ZvT could be the one. As you did in this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EW0P-qL0qxI
BTW, that one is a good explanation for the Gameplan you suggested first.
Hmm, Probably go for a roach speed +1 or +2 carapace mass roach ravager timing. Probably off 5-gas, 12 drones on minerals on the 3rd. So that way you just focus on the opening into a huge timing.
Next stage would be adding infestors and playing mass roach-ravager infestor with it (same as in that video)
Final stage would be going right up to hive playing the full style.
However based on style you might want to swap infestor stage for more bane-drop focus and counter-attacks.
Thank you, I just practiced today the second stage with a practice friend to learn the gameplan you presented in the link I gave. So I already have my first two wins with this style. The only part left to practice is the usage of the ultras in the third stage. It seems they should be split and do damage where they can, and avoid liberators and all the counter ultra things. Speaking about liberators, does corruptors are enough vs mass liberators, or should vipers abduct them so that they are no longer a threat for the ultras?
Often you can just do a frontal assault with ultras and overwhelm ignoring 4 libs. But once they get lots of libs AND a good defensive position maybe you want to focus more on base denial.
vipers for PB and abduct is great yeah, definitely prefer that if they get to higher numbers though most players just keep trading so they never get there
EPT
