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The problem of morality - Page 2

Blogs > firehand101
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TwoTrickPony
Profile Blog Joined November 2015
30 Posts
March 25 2016 04:30 GMT
#21
I don't really have any answers to this but I did get a question when reading what you wrote.

My question was what does moral mean? I looked it up in a dictionary but to be frank, the definition I got didn't clear anything up for me.

Also from Djzapz comments it came to mind that maybe objective and subjective are not so mutually exclusive? (people do live in reality after all, so even if we all experience it differently it is still within a shared whole).

I do agree that very often problems get "solved" in a way that doesn't solve them for very long. Pretty disturbing to think about sometimes.

Have you been struggling with this at all lately firehand101? I often think about this stuff when I have to go through it so mostly just wondering.
imgbaby
Profile Blog Joined May 2015
158 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-25 06:08:57
March 25 2016 05:41 GMT
#22
On March 25 2016 13:30 TwoTrickPony wrote:
I don't really have any answers to this but I did get a question when reading what you wrote.

My question was what does moral mean? I looked it up in a dictionary but to be frank, the definition I got didn't clear anything up for me.

Also from Djzapz comments it came to mind that maybe objective and subjective are not so mutually exclusive? (people do live in reality after all, so even if we all experience it differently it is still within a shared whole).

I do agree that very often problems get "solved" in a way that doesn't solve them for very long. Pretty disturbing to think about sometimes.

Have you been struggling with this at all lately firehand101? I often think about this stuff when I have to go through it so mostly just wondering.


Great question. I think the moral decision is the one that brings joy and fairness, equality and freedom to all. Though each culture has its own ideas, and these are often subjective. This is cultural relativism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relativism .... despite this there still must be an idea of what is best for the human spirit, because as we see there are systems for medicinal health. For instance it is best not to eat or drink e coli. So theoretically there must be decisions best for human well being in the psyche. These are moral choices. This is somewhat influenced by Plato.

edit: Actually screw Plato and Socrates, I'm going to steal from Kant here. Kant says that the moral choice is the one that if you were to make a rule of your behaviour for all to follow then that rule would be sound. I kinda forget actually. There are many opinions. For instance Utilitarians argue that the greatest good for the greatest number is moral.

edit2- and yes the utilitarians and Kant run into trouble with thought problems such as saving one life versus saving three lives if the decision has to be made to change the death of one into the death of three.

The best answer comes from Nietzsche imo which is that the moral thing to do is live dangerously. For why? because God is dead and man is to superman what ape is to man, and one must cross. But as Tom Robbins said "advice is (only) a form of nostalgia." There's also Kierkegaard who says that the bible is right with this one truism "love thy neighbour."

So in conclusion, morality is not a failure but rather a question answered quite well but not studied by many.

there's also music in this equation


also love this song
Like a bird on a wire, like a drunk in some midnight choir I have tried in my way to be free
firehand101
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Australia3152 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-25 09:42:38
March 25 2016 08:39 GMT
#23
On March 25 2016 14:41 imgbaby wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 25 2016 13:30 TwoTrickPony wrote:
I don't really have any answers to this but I did get a question when reading what you wrote.

My question was what does moral mean? I looked it up in a dictionary but to be frank, the definition I got didn't clear anything up for me.

Also from Djzapz comments it came to mind that maybe objective and subjective are not so mutually exclusive? (people do live in reality after all, so even if we all experience it differently it is still within a shared whole).

I do agree that very often problems get "solved" in a way that doesn't solve them for very long. Pretty disturbing to think about sometimes.

Have you been struggling with this at all lately firehand101? I often think about this stuff when I have to go through it so mostly just wondering.


Great question. I think the moral decision is the one that brings joy and fairness, equality and freedom to all. Though each culture has its own ideas, and these are often subjective. This is cultural relativism


To answer DualTrickPony's question through imgbaby; morality is exactly the opposite of how he defined it.

A moral enforcement stems from immorality. There has to be a supreme power (The State/King/Ruler) that makes a rule which benefits them. To say 'Don't kill' is a moral rule, which can only be enforced by a ruling power which USED killing to gain the power they have, and now wish to protect themselves from violence USING violence (police etc). Killing itself is neither good or bad. Morality is just a tool for higher powers to enforce discipline and control over lower ones

Nietzsche's answer I think is to find your own morality, your own good and bad. Morality is neither good nor bad, it just IS. Morality is making a distinction between good and bad, and we ALL do this to some extent (ie moving your hand away from a hot stove, moving away from pain and into pleasure is your own morality)

I think the human race is at the stage now where they should not condemn morality (which I sort of did in the title, a mistake of mine I'll admit ) nor embrace and follow it completely, but UNDERSTAND what morality is and what it means. The state enforces 'don't kill each other' laws and 'don't rape each other laws'. It's time not to abandon these rules nor follow them completely, but to understand them. I have a very strong suspicion that once we start understanding morality, punishment etc, we will no longer HAVE THE NEED to kill and rape each other, because we understand ourselves. We are all one species, one race, one team, and it's high time we started acting like one.

In the same way rape is neither good nor bad, it just exists and we have to understand it, we have to understand morality also
The opinions expressed by our users do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff.
TwoTrickPony
Profile Blog Joined November 2015
30 Posts
March 25 2016 15:06 GMT
#24
On March 25 2016 17:39 firehand101 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 25 2016 14:41 imgbaby wrote:
On March 25 2016 13:30 TwoTrickPony wrote:
I don't really have any answers to this but I did get a question when reading what you wrote.

My question was what does moral mean? I looked it up in a dictionary but to be frank, the definition I got didn't clear anything up for me.

Also from Djzapz comments it came to mind that maybe objective and subjective are not so mutually exclusive? (people do live in reality after all, so even if we all experience it differently it is still within a shared whole).

I do agree that very often problems get "solved" in a way that doesn't solve them for very long. Pretty disturbing to think about sometimes.

Have you been struggling with this at all lately firehand101? I often think about this stuff when I have to go through it so mostly just wondering.


Great question. I think the moral decision is the one that brings joy and fairness, equality and freedom to all. Though each culture has its own ideas, and these are often subjective. This is cultural relativism


To answer DualTrickPony's question through imgbaby; morality is exactly the opposite of how he defined it.

A moral enforcement stems from immorality. There has to be a supreme power (The State/King/Ruler) that makes a rule which benefits them. To say 'Don't kill' is a moral rule, which can only be enforced by a ruling power which USED killing to gain the power they have, and now wish to protect themselves from violence USING violence (police etc). Killing itself is neither good or bad. Morality is just a tool for higher powers to enforce discipline and control over lower ones

Nietzsche's answer I think is to find your own morality, your own good and bad. Morality is neither good nor bad, it just IS. Morality is making a distinction between good and bad, and we ALL do this to some extent (ie moving your hand away from a hot stove, moving away from pain and into pleasure is your own morality)

I think the human race is at the stage now where they should not condemn morality (which I sort of did in the title, a mistake of mine I'll admit ) nor embrace and follow it completely, but UNDERSTAND what morality is and what it means. The state enforces 'don't kill each other' laws and 'don't rape each other laws'. It's time not to abandon these rules nor follow them completely, but to understand them. I have a very strong suspicion that once we start understanding morality, punishment etc, we will no longer HAVE THE NEED to kill and rape each other, because we understand ourselves. We are all one species, one race, one team, and it's high time we started acting like one.

In the same way rape is neither good nor bad, it just exists and we have to understand it, we have to understand morality also


Wow, thanks for the answers.

Hmm, imgbaby's answer sounds more like where it begins and firehand101's answer is more about where it ended up.

Interestingly neither answer seems to indicate that morals are personal but instead are collective. That does seem like how it's most often talked about.

I agree very strongly that moral enforcement tends to end up becoming very abusive and exploited by the powerful.
firehand101
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Australia3152 Posts
March 25 2016 20:11 GMT
#25
On March 26 2016 00:06 TwoTrickPony wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 25 2016 17:39 firehand101 wrote:
On March 25 2016 14:41 imgbaby wrote:
On March 25 2016 13:30 TwoTrickPony wrote:
I don't really have any answers to this but I did get a question when reading what you wrote.

My question was what does moral mean? I looked it up in a dictionary but to be frank, the definition I got didn't clear anything up for me.

Also from Djzapz comments it came to mind that maybe objective and subjective are not so mutually exclusive? (people do live in reality after all, so even if we all experience it differently it is still within a shared whole).

I do agree that very often problems get "solved" in a way that doesn't solve them for very long. Pretty disturbing to think about sometimes.

Have you been struggling with this at all lately firehand101? I often think about this stuff when I have to go through it so mostly just wondering.


Great question. I think the moral decision is the one that brings joy and fairness, equality and freedom to all. Though each culture has its own ideas, and these are often subjective. This is cultural relativism


To answer DualTrickPony's question through imgbaby; morality is exactly the opposite of how he defined it.

A moral enforcement stems from immorality. There has to be a supreme power (The State/King/Ruler) that makes a rule which benefits them. To say 'Don't kill' is a moral rule, which can only be enforced by a ruling power which USED killing to gain the power they have, and now wish to protect themselves from violence USING violence (police etc). Killing itself is neither good or bad. Morality is just a tool for higher powers to enforce discipline and control over lower ones

Nietzsche's answer I think is to find your own morality, your own good and bad. Morality is neither good nor bad, it just IS. Morality is making a distinction between good and bad, and we ALL do this to some extent (ie moving your hand away from a hot stove, moving away from pain and into pleasure is your own morality)

I think the human race is at the stage now where they should not condemn morality (which I sort of did in the title, a mistake of mine I'll admit ) nor embrace and follow it completely, but UNDERSTAND what morality is and what it means. The state enforces 'don't kill each other' laws and 'don't rape each other laws'. It's time not to abandon these rules nor follow them completely, but to understand them. I have a very strong suspicion that once we start understanding morality, punishment etc, we will no longer HAVE THE NEED to kill and rape each other, because we understand ourselves. We are all one species, one race, one team, and it's high time we started acting like one.

In the same way rape is neither good nor bad, it just exists and we have to understand it, we have to understand morality also


Wow, thanks for the answers.

Hmm, imgbaby's answer sounds more like where it begins and firehand101's answer is more about where it ended up.

Interestingly neither answer seems to indicate that morals are personal but instead are collective. That does seem like how it's most often talked about.

I agree very strongly that moral enforcement tends to end up becoming very abusive and exploited by the powerful.


Actually you have it the opposite way as well! haha My definition is how it STARTS, how a supreme power uses it to enforce control over lesser ones. Equality/Freedom for all is where it ENDS, where the ruling power eventually submits to the rule it proposed itself. So eventually the rule 'no violence' would apply to the state as well; this is where Nietzsche saw that morality ended, and was horrified by this scenario!

Morality is personal AND collective. You have your own personal morality, your own good and bad, and then there is good and bad for the collective/society which benefits them also.

A perfect world would have you following your own morality to benefit yourself and grow as a person WHILE complying with the state to benefit them also.
The opinions expressed by our users do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff.
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