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On January 27 2016 07:32 Xamo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2016 23:55 Musicus wrote:
Group 3: Happy with the changes to the foreign scene, understand that the region lock is needed and good for the game, no longer wanted to see Hyun and Co. farm those events anyway. But unhappy with the changes to the korean scene and concerned with the lack of new players in the land of StarCraft.
I am also in this group. If WCS 2016 had have 3 seasons in KR, even with the same price pool, we would be reasonably happy.
Sorry if this might be a dull question, but whose descision was it in the end? I can´t really believe it was on blizzards end,
when in the meantime they tolerated gsl hd paywall in the past and today this dingit plugin thingy.
If it was the organizers descision, then there is no one else to blame than themself though.
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Yes, this is good for foreigners.
The reason we're salty is because it fucks over Koreans in a way which is rather unfair, no matter how you look at it.
National championships for foreigners is 100% fine. Blocking out Koreans from gobal, open events is not.
Things are good for foreigners, yes. What is good (and fair) for Koreans? I need to see that before I shut up about WCS 2016.
Edit:
At DreamHack Leipzig we got a little bit of that back. Look at how Bly and Ptitdrogo reacted to their victories towards the end of the tournament. These kinds of reactions in CS:GO and LoL are emphasized and amplified even more because of the team based atmosphere, the camaraderie (some French in there for ToD) of human interaction and the embrace of one-another’s emotions after a clutch play or well fought victory. StarCraft hasn’t had that properly for a long time until recently.
Implying that Koreans aren't happy or excited when they win or something? That's pretty insulting towards Koreans, I suppose.
I just don't understand this post. I understand that you have to be positive towards things and all of that, but you aren't supposed to close your eyes towards unfairness. I just see a lot of unfairness towards Koreans.
Things were unfair for foreigners before simply because Koreans were good. Now things are unfair towards Koreans because the rules have changed to their detriment. Sorry, as I said before: National championships for foreigners is 100% fine. Blocking out Koreans from gobal, open events is not.
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But I think you should remember that stephano was popular is because he was one of the few foreigners that could take out top Koreans of the time, the rest are just bonus points.
Its the same with scarlett and thorzain etc
Honestly I am way less excited for all iem and dh if they are just mostly foreigners but what I care the most is that
Korean scene is taking a big hit and the new game is supposed to grow the kr scene so that there is new talents etc joining in.
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no interest in foreigner games, so not watching any DH, IEM etc. but yeah it's good for foreigner. they get free welfare money because the better players are banned from competing because they are too good.
who cares about koreans anyway such faceless players they don't deserve those tournament wins. Let's have some personality instead because that is what counts.
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What's the point of DH when they went out of their way to say in a roundabout way that Koreans couldn't play? WCS NA, WCS EU should've been region locked from the start or have Blizzard promote a way that Koreans couldn't just practice on the Korean server and they HAD to play on the other servers. This game isn't fun to watch anymore because we're not really seeing the top match ups. Furthermore, the Korean region got shit on badly and it's not in a good state. No, it probably wasn't because of the WCS changes, and it was a long time coming, but none of this helps.
People say that SC can't survive without foreigners? I don't think SC can survive without Koreans.
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Canada8990 Posts
Good read, I still think there is change to the Korean scene that need to be done if the system stay the same to give more chance to lower player, and that we should have more player at blizzcon if we gave entry to non-korean, but I mostly agree with what you said. It's great to have you back by the way!
Also : "I used to do fencing" was it when you were Jame Lanister? 
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On January 27 2016 03:01 Kapouais wrote:
Even tho I don't like the region lock at all (I'd like to see the highest level of gameplay possible but I guess this is only my opinion), why was region locking only about banning koreans from this event ?
If we follow this logic, since the Dreamhack happens in Europe, why all north and south american players are allowed to play at dreamhack, or even Nice (who is from Taiwan) and Probe (from Australia).
I don't feel confortable invoking "Region Lock" when the reality is "Ban koreans" for some odd reasons.
Some of you seem to miss that Koreans (without permanent stay outside Korea) are only banned from WCS Circuit Tournaments. Practically speaking this means, basically every big tournament. But the theory is not infact a ban for Koreans. There are 2 Regions, the Korean Region, and the International Region. There is no Europe or NA region, so there is no reason to ban south Americans from EU tournaments, not even theoretically.
In theory you can host a tournament without WCS points and invite as many Koreans as you want, it just isn't done.
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On January 27 2016 10:48 Charoisaur wrote:
no interest in foreigner games, so not watching any DH, IEM etc. but yeah it's good for foreigner. they get free welfare money because the better players are banned from competing because they are too good.
who cares about koreans anyway such faceless players they don't deserve those tournament wins. Let's have some personality instead because that is what counts.
Because A: You can always distinguish foreigner v foreigner from korean v korean
And B: Playing people at your skill level is totally unfair right? A more apt comparison is that it was welfare money for the Koreans, because they could essentially stomp over any non-Koreans and then only have to face Koreans. Foreigners don't automatically win anything, but now they can face people of their own level.
I get that people who are concerned about the Korean scene are annoyed that people lump all complaints into one group, but there's a problem
1. When they complain about b-teamers who never had a chance at the IEM or DH to begin with. Because, lets be honest, how many B-teamers actually signed up let alone qualified for an IEM or DH?
2. When many posts just complain about the WCS "welfare," you can see how it gets rather annoying.
So, I think the consensus is that people just want more tournaments in Korea.
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Great read, thank you
People are just too close-minded. Starcraft needed a change. Every change has its ups and downs.
People just like to support or criticize at will, without actually doing something, because, you know, it's easy behind a computer to write whatever you please.
Now people are concerned for Korea. Now people are concerned for Syria. Now people are concerned with terrorism in France. Now people are concerned with drug-lords and drug-wars in Mexico.
All these matters need changes, radical changes. But of course, when they happen, people aren't happy. So you can be with those people, unhappy, because the change will happen whether you like it or not, or you can make the best out of it.
Adapt or walk away. That's life. This is a videogame. It just happens we just care too much about this videogame. Well, give it your support, even on its darkest times, or stop dragging down.
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Nothing is stopping foreigners from becoming competitive apart from laziness and lack of talent. I'm not sure why so many people around here are so eager to see to it that mediocre players can make a living playing StarCraft at the cost of fair competition.
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On January 28 2016 01:02 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2016 10:48 Charoisaur wrote:
no interest in foreigner games, so not watching any DH, IEM etc. but yeah it's good for foreigner. they get free welfare money because the better players are banned from competing because they are too good.
who cares about koreans anyway such faceless players they don't deserve those tournament wins. Let's have some personality instead because that is what counts.
Because A: You can always distinguish foreigner v foreigner from korean v korean And B: Playing people at your skill level is totally unfair right? A more apt comparison is that it was welfare money for the Koreans, because they could essentially stomp over any non-Koreans and then only have to face Koreans. Foreigners don't automatically win anything, but now they can face people of their own level. I get that people who are concerned about the Korean scene are annoyed that people lump all complaints into one group, but there's a problem 1. When they complain about b-teamers who never had a chance at the IEM or DH to begin with. Because, lets be honest, how many B-teamers actually signed up let alone qualified for an IEM or DH? 2. When many posts just complain about the WCS "welfare," you can see how it gets rather annoying. So, I think the consensus is that people just want more tournaments in Korea.
koreans don't have an unfair naturally advantage over foreigners because they are korean.
They got so good through their dedication and hard practice.
Now they re punished for being good.
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On January 28 2016 09:55 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2016 01:02 FrkFrJss wrote:On January 27 2016 10:48 Charoisaur wrote:
no interest in foreigner games, so not watching any DH, IEM etc. but yeah it's good for foreigner. they get free welfare money because the better players are banned from competing because they are too good.
who cares about koreans anyway such faceless players they don't deserve those tournament wins. Let's have some personality instead because that is what counts.
Because A: You can always distinguish foreigner v foreigner from korean v korean And B: Playing people at your skill level is totally unfair right? A more apt comparison is that it was welfare money for the Koreans, because they could essentially stomp over any non-Koreans and then only have to face Koreans. Foreigners don't automatically win anything, but now they can face people of their own level. I get that people who are concerned about the Korean scene are annoyed that people lump all complaints into one group, but there's a problem 1. When they complain about b-teamers who never had a chance at the IEM or DH to begin with. Because, lets be honest, how many B-teamers actually signed up let alone qualified for an IEM or DH? 2. When many posts just complain about the WCS "welfare," you can see how it gets rather annoying. So, I think the consensus is that people just want more tournaments in Korea. koreans don't have an unfair naturally advantage over foreigners because they are korean. They got so good through their dedication and hard practice. Now they re punished for being good.
Dont forget much better grounds to dedicate themselves to practicing :DS
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On January 28 2016 16:45 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2016 09:55 Charoisaur wrote:On January 28 2016 01:02 FrkFrJss wrote:On January 27 2016 10:48 Charoisaur wrote:
no interest in foreigner games, so not watching any DH, IEM etc. but yeah it's good for foreigner. they get free welfare money because the better players are banned from competing because they are too good.
who cares about koreans anyway such faceless players they don't deserve those tournament wins. Let's have some personality instead because that is what counts.
Because A: You can always distinguish foreigner v foreigner from korean v korean And B: Playing people at your skill level is totally unfair right? A more apt comparison is that it was welfare money for the Koreans, because they could essentially stomp over any non-Koreans and then only have to face Koreans. Foreigners don't automatically win anything, but now they can face people of their own level. I get that people who are concerned about the Korean scene are annoyed that people lump all complaints into one group, but there's a problem 1. When they complain about b-teamers who never had a chance at the IEM or DH to begin with. Because, lets be honest, how many B-teamers actually signed up let alone qualified for an IEM or DH? 2. When many posts just complain about the WCS "welfare," you can see how it gets rather annoying. So, I think the consensus is that people just want more tournaments in Korea. koreans don't have an unfair naturally advantage over foreigners because they are korean. They got so good through their dedication and hard practice. Now they re punished for being good. Dont forget much better grounds to dedicate themselves to practicing :DS
No. They just god damn practice more and better.
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On January 28 2016 17:08 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2016 16:45 Luolis wrote:On January 28 2016 09:55 Charoisaur wrote:On January 28 2016 01:02 FrkFrJss wrote:On January 27 2016 10:48 Charoisaur wrote:
no interest in foreigner games, so not watching any DH, IEM etc. but yeah it's good for foreigner. they get free welfare money because the better players are banned from competing because they are too good.
who cares about koreans anyway such faceless players they don't deserve those tournament wins. Let's have some personality instead because that is what counts.
Because A: You can always distinguish foreigner v foreigner from korean v korean And B: Playing people at your skill level is totally unfair right? A more apt comparison is that it was welfare money for the Koreans, because they could essentially stomp over any non-Koreans and then only have to face Koreans. Foreigners don't automatically win anything, but now they can face people of their own level. I get that people who are concerned about the Korean scene are annoyed that people lump all complaints into one group, but there's a problem 1. When they complain about b-teamers who never had a chance at the IEM or DH to begin with. Because, lets be honest, how many B-teamers actually signed up let alone qualified for an IEM or DH? 2. When many posts just complain about the WCS "welfare," you can see how it gets rather annoying. So, I think the consensus is that people just want more tournaments in Korea. koreans don't have an unfair naturally advantage over foreigners because they are korean. They got so good through their dedication and hard practice. Now they re punished for being good. Dont forget much better grounds to dedicate themselves to practicing :DS No. They just god damn practice more and better.
On January 28 2016 17:08 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2016 16:45 Luolis wrote:On January 28 2016 09:55 Charoisaur wrote:On January 28 2016 01:02 FrkFrJss wrote:On January 27 2016 10:48 Charoisaur wrote:
no interest in foreigner games, so not watching any DH, IEM etc. but yeah it's good for foreigner. they get free welfare money because the better players are banned from competing because they are too good.
who cares about koreans anyway such faceless players they don't deserve those tournament wins. Let's have some personality instead because that is what counts.
Because A: You can always distinguish foreigner v foreigner from korean v korean And B: Playing people at your skill level is totally unfair right? A more apt comparison is that it was welfare money for the Koreans, because they could essentially stomp over any non-Koreans and then only have to face Koreans. Foreigners don't automatically win anything, but now they can face people of their own level. I get that people who are concerned about the Korean scene are annoyed that people lump all complaints into one group, but there's a problem 1. When they complain about b-teamers who never had a chance at the IEM or DH to begin with. Because, lets be honest, how many B-teamers actually signed up let alone qualified for an IEM or DH? 2. When many posts just complain about the WCS "welfare," you can see how it gets rather annoying. So, I think the consensus is that people just want more tournaments in Korea. koreans don't have an unfair naturally advantage over foreigners because they are korean. They got so good through their dedication and hard practice. Now they re punished for being good. Dont forget much better grounds to dedicate themselves to practicing :DS No. They just god damn practice more and better.
And the only reason they can do that is because of 15 years of infrastructure development/refinement (aka much better grounds)
Also Koreans don't get "punished for being good". The new system as far as the region lock goes doesn't hurt the top of the Korean scene nearly as much as some people make it out to be. The problem is in the Korean scene itself, and the fact that it is so top heavy. They basically have the exact same problem as the foreign scene has been having for years, slim to no opportunities for aspiring players/talents to grow in the scene, and no investments in such players/talents from teams due to the lack of potential return on investment. For the foreign scene though there is a fairly easy fix, foster local competition and limit global competition just like in traditional sports, allowing talented players to grow, compete and most important, provide a return on investment by providing opportunities to do so. The next step would be to provide the same opportunities for the Korean scene, although, due to the limited size of that scene, it won't be easy, and I currently so not have a solution for it.
But the region lock is not the cause of the problem, nor will removing it solve anything at all. The decline of the Korean scene has been going on for a long time already.
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On January 28 2016 19:03 Timelog wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2016 17:08 Incognoto wrote:On January 28 2016 16:45 Luolis wrote:On January 28 2016 09:55 Charoisaur wrote:On January 28 2016 01:02 FrkFrJss wrote:On January 27 2016 10:48 Charoisaur wrote:
no interest in foreigner games, so not watching any DH, IEM etc. but yeah it's good for foreigner. they get free welfare money because the better players are banned from competing because they are too good.
who cares about koreans anyway such faceless players they don't deserve those tournament wins. Let's have some personality instead because that is what counts.
Because A: You can always distinguish foreigner v foreigner from korean v korean And B: Playing people at your skill level is totally unfair right? A more apt comparison is that it was welfare money for the Koreans, because they could essentially stomp over any non-Koreans and then only have to face Koreans. Foreigners don't automatically win anything, but now they can face people of their own level. I get that people who are concerned about the Korean scene are annoyed that people lump all complaints into one group, but there's a problem 1. When they complain about b-teamers who never had a chance at the IEM or DH to begin with. Because, lets be honest, how many B-teamers actually signed up let alone qualified for an IEM or DH? 2. When many posts just complain about the WCS "welfare," you can see how it gets rather annoying. So, I think the consensus is that people just want more tournaments in Korea. koreans don't have an unfair naturally advantage over foreigners because they are korean. They got so good through their dedication and hard practice. Now they re punished for being good. Dont forget much better grounds to dedicate themselves to practicing :DS No. They just god damn practice more and better. Show nested quote +On January 28 2016 17:08 Incognoto wrote:On January 28 2016 16:45 Luolis wrote:On January 28 2016 09:55 Charoisaur wrote:On January 28 2016 01:02 FrkFrJss wrote:On January 27 2016 10:48 Charoisaur wrote:
no interest in foreigner games, so not watching any DH, IEM etc. but yeah it's good for foreigner. they get free welfare money because the better players are banned from competing because they are too good.
who cares about koreans anyway such faceless players they don't deserve those tournament wins. Let's have some personality instead because that is what counts.
Because A: You can always distinguish foreigner v foreigner from korean v korean And B: Playing people at your skill level is totally unfair right? A more apt comparison is that it was welfare money for the Koreans, because they could essentially stomp over any non-Koreans and then only have to face Koreans. Foreigners don't automatically win anything, but now they can face people of their own level. I get that people who are concerned about the Korean scene are annoyed that people lump all complaints into one group, but there's a problem 1. When they complain about b-teamers who never had a chance at the IEM or DH to begin with. Because, lets be honest, how many B-teamers actually signed up let alone qualified for an IEM or DH? 2. When many posts just complain about the WCS "welfare," you can see how it gets rather annoying. So, I think the consensus is that people just want more tournaments in Korea. koreans don't have an unfair naturally advantage over foreigners because they are korean. They got so good through their dedication and hard practice. Now they re punished for being good. Dont forget much better grounds to dedicate themselves to practicing :DS No. They just god damn practice more and better. And the only reason they can do that is because of 15 years of infrastructure development/refinement (aka much better grounds) Also Koreans don't get "punished for being good". The new system as far as the region lock goes doesn't hurt the top of the Korean scene nearly as much as some people make it out to be. The problem is in the Korean scene itself, and the fact that it is so top heavy. They basically have the exact same problem as the foreign scene has been having for years, slim to no opportunities for aspiring players/talents to grow in the scene, and no investments in such players/talents from teams due to the lack of potential return on investment. For the foreign scene though there is a fairly easy fix, foster local competition and limit global competition just like in traditional sports, allowing talented players to grow, compete and most important, provide a return on investment by providing opportunities to do so. The next step would be to provide the same opportunities for the Korean scene, although, due to the limited size of that scene, it won't be easy, and I currently so not have a solution for it. But the region lock is not the cause of the problem, nor will removing it solve anything at all. The decline of the Korean scene has been going on for a long time already.
And so the b-team Koreans have little opportunity to advance and thus grow the scene. So what we need, then are more local tournaments supported by blizzard to help those lower level Koreans. Cause honestly, we only see b-team koreans in like the Olimoleague and sometimes before in qualifiers, and they always got slapped around by a-team Koreans.
And we need for not-unscrupulous people to invest in Korean Starcraft.
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There's finite money to dedicate to esports. Less for sc2. Blizzard is (and has been) opening their coffers to keep the scene running strong. The way things were going a good amount of money was being wasted on 5-10 Koreans traveling half way around the world every few weeks.
I'd argue that supporting B-team Koreans is less important than supporting A-tier foreigners. In every scenario I think of, getting more money into the foreign infrastructure benefits the global scene in the long run. Yes, there's the risk of losing out on new talent in KR but that pales in comparison to losing a big chunk of foreign fans (both of which have already been going on).
I'm definitely not opposed to even more support of the KR scene - I do think it's vital to the global scene as well! - but the "top tier" of each region needs to stabilize more first! + Show Spoiler +Last weekend's DH wasn't even scheduled to have SC2 until the new WCS system was announced! - hence the floor plan with almost no viewing area for sc2.
I know that everyone watches foreigner vs KR matches for a chance to see "the next foreign hope" - Serral's hype train started from his performance vs Supernova (DH Bucharest) despite losing 0-2. But for every hope inspiring series we've had a dozen stomps leading to typically 0-1 foreigners in the ro8 at which point we might as well be watching ladder streams.
Now, I'm all for watching high level play. PL, GSL, SSL etc have always been my preferred events to watch! I much prefer seeing practice map specific builds executed by some of the top players/teams over watching a weekend LAN where players show off their ladder stamina. I just think that there won't be anything else (BW foreigner events?) unless the foreign infrastructure (casual fans -> players) gets a boost like it now is.
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good read!
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Thanks for the share, I'm neutral in this since I don't believe I know enough of the scene to judge whats best for it. Thats why I love reading others peoples thoughts on it, espeically from people that are directly related to it in a bigger way than me. Your blog was also well written and you explained your standpoint well.
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Well written and I would like to think more and more people are starting to realise WCS 2016 has the potential for a lot of excitement in the scene.
People need to stop thinking of it as banning the koreans from playing in tournaments and instead, creating two separate divisions in the Starcraft community. Why only Korea? Because they have by far the largest competitive scene in the world, with the infrastructure to maintain a separate division, NA and EU simply don't.
I don't know who made the decision to have less seasons in Korea overall but to be honest I think it has a lot to do with the overlap that was being created by having seasons running at the same time and multiple champions being crowned without a real sense of who is currently on top of Korea.
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EPT
