EPTThe Greatest Brood War Players of All Time - Page 2
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Bill Murray
United States9292 Posts
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c3rberUs
Japan11285 Posts
On January 15 2016 20:01 Scarecrow wrote: 6) The balls of Kwanro. I laughed at this way too much. | ||
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Cele
Germany4016 Posts
Why didn't you include the GOMTV Classic Seasons 1-3 into the calculation? My understanding might be flawed, but it seems to me it the tours were notable and should be included? I would assign perhaps 12-16 points to it. I imagine it is due to the fact, that KeSpa was not in full support of the tour and that the absence of notable players would leave a doubt on the value of the tour? Thanks for answering when you do! | ||
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Endymion
United States3701 Posts
On January 17 2016 05:22 Bill Murray wrote: Bisu = way too low that's because protoss is for noobs and this is a list of good players XD | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On January 18 2016 00:07 Cele wrote: i have your posts carefully and i do think they hold a great deal of understanding about the development of the korean scene. My own understanding of it is limited, especially when we talk about the earlier years ( up to 2005) but a question remains for me: Why didn't you include the GOMTV Classic Seasons 1-3 into the calculation? My understanding might be flawed, but it seems to me it the tours were notable and should be included? I would assign perhaps 12-16 points to it. I imagine it is due to the fact, that KeSpa was not in full support of the tour and that the absence of notable players would leave a doubt on the value of the tour? Thanks for answering when you do! The entire point allocation system is basically based on what made a modern day season (2008/2009 season onwards). Which consists of the following, 1) 3 OGN StarLeagues (96 points available if you win them all) 2) 3 MSLs (96 points available if you win them all) 3) A year long ProLeague schedule (32 points if you have the most number of wins) So I've theoretically there's 224 points to be won in a year long season, and basically what I've done is if any of the above tournaments were not in an era, I substituted various individual leagues/team leagues I've felt were the most important in that specific era (based on prestige, prize money, number of players competing etc) in eras where any of the above tournaments were "missing". Unfortunately for GomTV tournaments, they took place in an era where all the slots were "taken" with more important tournaments. I don't particularly find GomTV tournaments to be of great importance in the grand scope of things. These were basically non-KeSPA sanctioned tournaments that came in era where KeSPA tournaments ruled the scene with an iron fist. Due to the politics of the time, GomTV leagues didn't get much respect from the players (players have been quoted for not taking this tournament seriously enough to practice for it), the teams (some teams just chose not to participate), and the fans of the time. It didn't penetrate the Korean market that well due to not having its own television broadcasting channel. Of course, I know for a fact that GomTV leagues had a far reaching audience globally due to its English casting, but I'm not going to give a sentimental privilege just because these leagues happened recently and is fondly remembered on this site. I didn't do it for tournaments I consider of similar relevance such as GameQ StarLeagues, GhemTV StarLeagues, and iTV Ranking League. I wouldn't get too teared up over it, at most it creates a deviation of maybe ten to twenty points for the players in question, and creates a turbulence in the overall point system that I don't find worth making just in order to acknowledge its existence. To be honest, if I were to create a minor point system for every tournament that existed, older legends NaDa would extend their leads even further. While some people may believe that GomTV league were more important, remember that some of the tournaments NaDa won had their own broadcasting channels, but were forgotten over time due to being out-muscled by the likes of OGN and MBC Game as the scene grew. As an example iTV Ranking tournaments were active in 2000~2004, and had seven tournaments during that era. I didn't include any of these tournaments because of more important tournaments like OGN, and KT-KTF Premiere League. GomTV was an internet based company that ran tournaments from 2008~2009, and ran four tournaments. | ||
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Cele
Germany4016 Posts
On January 18 2016 02:00 Letmelose wrote: The entire point allocation system is basically based on what made a modern day season (2008/2009 season onwards). Which consists of the following, 1) 3 OGN StarLeagues (96 points available if you win them all) 2) 3 MSLs (96 points available if you win them all) 3) A year long ProLeague schedule (32 points if you have the most number of wins) So I've theoretically there's 224 points to be won in a year long season, and basically what I've done is if any of the above tournaments were not in an era, I substituted various individual leagues/team leagues I've felt were the most important in that specific era (based on prestige, prize money, number of players competing etc) in eras where any of the above tournaments were "missing". Unfortunately for GomTV tournaments, they took place in an era where all the slots were "taken" with more important tournaments. I don't particularly find GomTV tournaments to be of great importance in the grand scope of things. These were basically non-KeSPA sanctioned tournaments that came in era where KeSPA tournaments ruled the scene with an iron fist. Due to the politics of the time, GomTV leagues didn't get much respect from the players (players have been quoted for not taking this tournament seriously enough to practice for it), the teams (some teams just chose not to participate), and the fans of the time. It didn't penetrate the Korean market that well due to not having its own television broadcasting channel. Of course, I know for a fact that GomTV leagues had a far reaching audience globally due to its English casting, but I'm not going to give a sentimental privilege just because these leagues happened recently and is fondly remembered on this site. I didn't do it for tournaments I consider of similar relevance such as GameQ StarLeagues, GhemTV StarLeagues, and iTV Ranking League. I wouldn't get too teared up over it, at most it creates a deviation of maybe ten to twenty points for the players in question, and creates a turbulence in the overall point system that I don't find worth making just in order to acknowledge its existence. To be honest, if I were to create a minor point system for every tournament that existed, older legends NaDa would extend their leads even further. While some people may believe that GomTV league were more important, remember that some of the tournaments NaDa won had their own broadcasting channels, but were forgotten over time due to being out-muscled by the likes of OGN and MBC Game as the scene grew. As an example iTV Ranking tournaments were active in 2000~2004, and had seven tournaments during that era. I didn't include any of these tournaments because of more important tournaments like OGN, and KT-KTF Premiere League. GomTV was an internet based company that ran tournaments from 2008~2009, and ran four tournaments. thanks for your elaborate post, i feel i understand better now about the postion the Gom TV Seasons hold in the grand scheme of things. Of course i suspected that we (the english community) overvalue the GomTV Seasons due to the fact that is was english casted and that it actually wasn't that important in the korean scenes and for the players for the facts you mentioned. But having it explained expanded my knowledge in this regard. On an unrelated note: do you think that something similar to what you did here would make sense to do for the post Starcraft 2 korean scene? I do imagine, that it would be very hard to justify, from which point should be taken as a starting point and which tournamnets should be included. But i but think of Starting with the Sonic Starleague either 7 or 8 as the first Major Tournament, because we saw a significant increase in player quality participating in comparison to SSL 6. Which also might be due to the fact that the hybrid Starleague, Tving OSL had just ended. It would make sense to count SSL's and KSL's as Major events i think. But i disgress, do you think it would make sense? Another question if you will allow: it has been discussed on Teamliquid with no clear result, should the SSL 11 be counted as an OSL as such by fans? What is your opnion, what do korean netizens think? Sorry if i disgress, it's the curiosity speaking out of me. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
Each round they were left as the sole member of his race will be rewarded with points, so that if you are the only member of your race in a round of eight, for example, you are given a point. Each stage your progress afterwards until you become champion will be rewarded also. Theoretically, the player who starts off as the only member of his race in the round of 16, and goes on to become the champion will be rewarded the most with five points (the only time this came close to happening in history was when Jaedong got 2nd in Arena MSL). I will also compare a year's worth of team league games to the best performing players of the player in question's race. I will then turn that number into a percentage, which I will add up as a total (2008 season will be halved due to its half-year duration). Further more, I won't be negating points from the 2003 team league season like I did for the original list. This is mostly because I can't be bothered, and partly because I've not counted some of individual leagues like KT-KTF Premiere League, so I'll buff up the points for the 2003 team leagues for this time round. 100% will be deemed equal to a single point, as in, having exactly the same number of team league wins as the best performing player of your race will be seen as a performance equal to having been the sole survivor of your race for one round in an individual league. I could reward more points for the team league games, but I think the list will be dominated by modern era players by too much if I do so. 1) Flash Bacchus 2008 OGN StarLeague: 3 rounds as the sole representative of his race EVER 2008 OGN StarLeague: 1 round as the sole representative of his race EVER 2009 OGN StarLeague: 4 rounds as the sole representative of his race NATE MSL: 2 rounds as the sole representative of his race Korean Air OGN StarLeague S2: 2 rounds as the sole representative of his race Hana Daetoo MSL: 3 rounds as the sole representative of his race Big File MSL: 2 rounds as the sole representative of his race Korean Air OGN StarLeague S2: 3 rounds as the sole representative of his race ABC Mart MSL: 3 rounds as the sole representative of his race Career total: 23 rounds as the sole representative of his race Individual league points: 23 points 2007 team leagues: 57% of wins of Sea (the terran player with the highest number of wins) 2008 team leagues: 121% of wins of Leta (the terran player with the next highest number of wins) 2008/2009 team leagues: 110% of wins of Leta (the terran player with the next highest number of wins) 2009/2010 team leagues: 130% of wins of Light (the terran player with the next highest number of wins) 2010~ team leagues: 143% of wins of Sea (the terran player with the next highest number of wins) Career accumulative percentage: 501% Team league points: 5.01 points Total career points: 28.01 points 2) Jaedong EVER 2007 OGN StarLeague: 3 rounds as the sole representative of his race GomTV MSL S4: 4 rounds as the sole representative of his race Arena MSL: 4 rounds as the sole representative of his race Batoo OGN StarLeague: 2 rounds as the sole representative of his race Bacchus 2009 OGN StarLeague: 1 round as the sole representative of his race NATE MSL: 2 rounds as the sole representative of his race Hana Daetoo MSL: 1 round as the sole representative of his race Big File MSL: 2 rounds as the sole representative of his race Korean Air OGN StarLeague S2: 2 rounds as the sole representative of his race Career total: 21 rounds as the sole representative of his race Individual league points: 21 points 2006 team leagues: 106% of wins of sAviOr (the zerg player with the next highest number of wins) 2007 team leagues: 143% of wins of Luxury (the zerg player with the next highest number of wins) 2008 team leagues: 100% of wins of Luxury (the zerg player with the highest number of wins) 2008/2009 team leagues: 135% of wins of Calm (the zerg player with the next highest number of wins) 2009/2010 team leagues: 130% of wins of ZerO (the zerg player with the next highest number of wins) 2010~ team leagues: 116% of wins of ZerO (the zerg player with the next highest number of wins) Career accumulative percentage: 680% Team league points: 6.8 points Total career points: 27.3 points 3) NaDa 2nd KPGA Tournament: 3 rounds as the sole representative of his race 3rd KPGA Tournament: 2 rounds as the sole representative of his race 4th KPGA Tournament: 2 rounds as the sole representative of his race Panasonic OGN StarLeague: 3 rounds as the sole representative of his race Stout MSL: 2 rounds as the sole representative of his race YATGK MSL: 1 round as the sole representative of his race IOPS OGN StarLeague: 2 rounds as the sole representative of his race Shinhan OGN StarLeague S2: 2 rounds as the sole representative of his race Shinhan OGN StarLeague S3: 1 round as the sole representative of his race Career total: 18 rounds as the sole representative of his race Individual league points: 18 points 2003 team leagues: 54% of wins of iloveoov (the terran player with the highest number of wins) 2004 team leagues: 111% of wins of ClouD (the terran player with the next highest number of wins) 2005 team leagues: 100% of wins of Midas (the terran player with the highest number of wins) 2006 team leagues: 100% of wins of Sea (the terran player with the highest number of wins) 2007 team leagues: 60% of wins of Sea (the terran player with the highest number of wins) 2008 team leagues: 41% of wins of Flash (the terran player with the highest number of wins) 2008/2009 team leagues: 15% of wins of Flash (the terran player with the highest number of wins) 2009/2010 team leagues: 9% of wins of Flash (the terran player with the highest number of wins) Career accumulative percentage: 470% Team league points: 4.7 points Total career points: 22.7 points 4) Reach SKY 2002 OGN StarLeague: 4 rounds as the sole representative of his race 3rd KPGA Tournament: 2 rounds as the sole representative of his race Gillette OGN StarLeague: 2 rounds as the sole representative of his race EVER 2004 OGN StarLeague: 2 rounds as the sole representative of his race IOPS OGN StarLeague: 1 round as the sole representative of his race EVER 2005 OGN StarLeague: 1 round as the sole representative of his race UZOO MSL: 2 rounds as the sole representative of his race Career total: 14 rounds as the sole representative of his race Individual league points: 14 points 2003 team leagues: 54% of wins of fOru (the protoss player with the highest number of wins) 2004 team leagues: 86% of wins of Nal_rA (the protoss player with the highest number of wins) 2005 team leagues: 44% of wins of Stork (the protoss player with the highest number of wins) 2006 team leagues: 36% of the wins of Anytime (the protoss player with the highest number of wins) 2007 team leagues: 0% of the wins of Stork (the protoss player with the highest number of wins) 2008 team leagues: 0% of the wins of Stork (the protoss player with the highest number of wins) 2008/2009 team leagues: 23% of the wins of Bisu (the protoss player with the highest number of wins) 2009/2010 team leagues: 17% of the wins of Kal (the protoss player with the highest number of wins) 2010~ team leagues: 2% of the wins of Bisu (the protoss player with the highest number of wins) Career accumulative percentage: 262% Team league points: 2.62 points Total career points: 16.62 points 5) July SPRIS MSL: 1 round as the sole representative of his race Gillette OGN StarLeague: 4 rounds as the sole representative of his race IOPS OGN StarLeague: 1 round as the sole representative of his race EVER 2005 OGN StarLeague: 2 rounds as the sole representative of his race So1 OGN StarLeague: 1 round as the sole representative of his race Shinhan 2005 OGN StarLeague: 3 rounds as the sole representative of his race EVER 2008 OGN StarLeague: 2 rounds as the sole representative of his race Career total: 14 rounds as the sole representative of his race Individual league points: 14 points 2003 team leagues: 14% of wins of ChoJJa (the zerg player with the highest number of wins) 2004 team leagues: 38% of wins of JJu (the zerg player with the highest number of wins) 2005 team leagues: 73% of wins of JJu (the zerg player with the highest number of wins) 2006 team leagues: 41% of wins of Jaedong (the zerg player with the highest number of wins) 2007 team leagues: 7% of wins of Jaedong (the zerg player with the highest number of wins) 2008 team leagues: 0% of wins of Jaedong (the zerg player with the highest number of wins) 2008/2009 team leagues: 31% of wins of Jaedong (the zerg player with the highest number of wins) Career accumulative percentage: 204% Team league points: 2.04 points Total career points: 16.04 points 6) sAviOr UZOO MSL: 2 rounds as the sole representative of his race Pringles MSL S1: 3 rounds as the sole representative of his race Pringles MSL S2: 1 round as the sole representative of his race Shinhan OGN StarLeague S3: 3 rounds as the sole representative of his race GomTV MSL S1: 2 rounds as the sole representative of his race GomTV MSL S3: 1 round as the sole representative of his race Career total: 12 rounds as the sole representative of his race Individual league points: 12 points 2004 team leagues: 57% of wins of JJu (the zerg player with the highest number of wins) 2005 team leagues: 40% of wins of JJu (the zerg player with the highest number of wins) 2006 team leagues: 94% of wins of Jaedong (the zerg player with the highest number of wins) 2007 team leagues: 30% of wins of Jaedong (the zerg player with the highest number of wins) 2008 team leagues: 0% of wins of Jaedong (the zerg player with the highest number of wins) 2008/2009 team leagues: 28% of wins of Jaedong (the zerg player with the highest number of wins) 2009/2010 team leagues: 8% of wins Jaedong (the zerg player with the highest number of wins) Career accumulative percentage: 257% Team league points: 2.57 points Total career points: 14.57 points 7) Stork Daum OGN StarLeague: 1 round as the sole representative of his race EVER 2007 StarLeague: 1 round as the sole representative of his race Bacchus 2008 OGN StarLeague: 1 round as the sole representative of his race Incruit OGN StarLeague: 2 rounds as the sole representative of his race Korean Air OGN StarLeague S1: 1 round as the sole representative of his race Bacchus 2010 OGN StarLeague: 2 rounds as the sole representative of his race Career total: 8 rounds as the sole representative of his race Individual league points: 8 points 2005 team leagues: 123% of wins of Pusan (the protoss player with the next highest number of wins) 2006 team leagues: 55% of the wins of Anytime (the protoss player with the highest number of wins) 2007 team leagues: 103% of the wins of Free (the protoss player with the next highest number of wins) 2008 team leagues: 86% of the wins of JangBi (the protoss player with the highest number of wins) 2008/2009 team leagues: 57% of the wins of Bisu (the protoss player with the highest number of wins) 2009/2010 team leagues: 86% of the wins of Kal (the protoss player with the highest number of wins) 2010~ team leagues: 65% of the wins of Bisu (the protoss player with the highest number of wins) Career accumulative percentage: 532% Team league points: 5.32 points Total career points: 13.62 points 8) Yellow Coca Cola OGN StarLeague: 1 round as the sole representative of his race SKY 2001 OGN StarLeague: 2 rounds as the sole representative of his race 1st KPGA Tournament: 2 rounds as the sole representative of his race 2nd KPGA Tournament: 1 round as the sole representative of his race 3rd KPGA Tournament: 1 round as the sole representative of his race SKY 202 OGN StarLeague: 1 round as the sole representative of his race Olympus OGN StarLeague: 1 round as the sole representative of his race TG Sambo MSL: 2 rounds as the sole representative of his race EVER OGN StarLeague: 1 round as the sole representative of his race Career total: 12 rounds as the sole representative of his race Individual league points: 12 points 2003 team leagues: 86% of wins of ChoJJa (the zerg player with the highest number of wins) 2004 team leagues: 5% of wins of JJu (the zerg player with the highest number of wins) 2005 team leagues: 27% of wins of JJu (the zerg player with the highest number of wins) 2006 team leagues: 6% of wins of Jaedong (the zerg player with the highest number of wins) 2007 team leagues: 7% of wins of Jaedong (the zerg player with the highest number of wins) 2008 team leagues: 0% of wins of Jaedong (the zerg player with the highest number of wins) 2008/2009 team leagues: 4% of wins of Jaedong (the zerg player with the highest number of wins) 2009/2010 team leagues: 17% of wins of Jaedong (the zerg player with the highest number of wins) 2010~ team leagues: 4% of wins of Jaedong (the zerg player with the highest number of wins) Career accumulative percentage: 156% Team league points: 1.56 points Total career points: 13.56 points 8) iloveoov TG Sambo MSL: 2 rounds as the sole representative of his race Cen Game MSL: 1 round as the sole representative of his race SPRIS MSL: 2 rounds as the sole representative of his race UZOO MSL: 1 round as the sole representative of his race Shinhan 2005 OGN StarLeague: 2 rounds as the sole representative of his race CYON MSL: 2 rounds as the sole representative of his race Career total: 10 rounds as the sole representative of his race Individual league points: 10 points 2003 team leagues: 130% of wins of XellOs (the terran player with the next highest number of wins) 2004 team leagues: 57% of wins of NaDa (the terran player with the next highest number of wins) 2005 team leagues: 44% of wins of NaDa (the terran player with the highest number of wins) 2006 team leagues: 36% of wins of Sea (the terran player with the highest number of wins) 2007 team leagues: 30% of wins of Sea (the terran player with the highest number of wins) 2008 team leagues: 0% of wins of Flash (the terran player with the highest number of wins) 2008/2009 team leagues: 7% of wins of Flash (the terran player with the highest number of wins) Career accumulative percentage: 304% Team league points: 3.04 points Total career points: 13.04 points 10) FanTaSy Incruit OGN StarLeague: 2 rounds as the sole representative of his race Batoo OGN StarLeague: 2 rounds as the sole representative of his race Bacchus 2009 OGN StarLeague: 1 round as the sole representative of his race Bacchus 2010 OGN StarLeague: 3 rounds as the sole representative of his race Jin Air OGN StarLeague: 2 rounds as the sole representative of his race Tving OGN StarLeague: 1 round as the sole representative of his race Career total: 11 rounds as the sole representative of his race Individual league points: 11 points 2007 team leagues: 7% of wins of Sea (the terran player with the highest number of wins) 2008 team leagues: 6% of wins of Flash (the terran player with the highest number of wins) 2008/2009 team leagues: 54% of wins of Flash (the terran player with the highest number of wins) 2009/2010 team leagues: 70% of wins of Flash (the terran player with the highest number of wins) 2010~ team leagues: 70% of wins of Flash (the terran player with the highest number of wins) Career accumulative percentage: 204% Team league points: 2.04 points Total career points: 13.04 points 11) Bisu GomTV MSL S1: 2 rounds as the sole representative of his race GomTV MSL S2: 1 round as the sole representative of his race GomTV MSL S3: 2 rounds as the sole representative of his race Clubday MSL: 1 round as the sole representative of his race Batoo OGN StarLeague: 1 round as the sole representative of his race Avalon MSL: 1 round as the sole representative of his race Career total: 8 rounds as the sole representative of his race Individual league points: 8 points 2005 team leagues: 13% of wins of Stork (the protoss player with the highest number of wins) 2006 team leagues: 45% of the wins of Anytime (the protoss player with the highest number of wins) 2007 team leagues: 30% of the wins of Stork (the protoss player with the highest number of wins) 2008 team leagues: 43% of the wins of JangBi (the protoss player with the highest number of wins) 2008/2009 team leagues: 151% of the wins of Free (the protoss player with the next highest number of wins) 2009/2010 team leagues: 64% of the wins of Kal (the protoss player with the highest number of wins) 2010~ team leagues: 138% of the wins of Stats (the protoss player with the highest number of wins) Career accumulative percentage: 463% Team league points: 4.63 points Total career points: 12.63 points 12) BoxeR Hanbitsoft OGN StarLeague: 3 rounds as the sole representative of his race Coca Cola OGN StarLeague: 2 rounds as the sole representative of his race SKY 2001 OGN StarLeague: 1 round as the sole representative of his race 1st KPGA Tournament: 2 rounds as the sole representative of his race SKY 2002 OGN StarLeague: 1 round as the sole representative of his race So1 OGN StarLeague: 1 round as the sole representative of his race Career total: 10 rounds as the sole representative of his race Individual league points: 10 points 2003 team leagues: 31% of wins of iloveoov (the terran player with the highest number of wins) 2004 team leagues: 57% of wins of NaDa (the terran player with the next highest number of wins) 2005 team leagues: 44% of wins of NaDa (the terran player with the highest number of wins) 2006 team leagues: 21% of wins of Sea (the terran player with the highest number of wins) 2007 team leagues: 57% of wins of Sea (the terran player with the highest number of wins) 2008 team leagues: 29% of wins of Flash (the terran player with the highest number of wins) 2008/2009 team leagues: 4% of wins of Flash (the terran player with the highest number of wins) 2009/2010 team leagues: 2% of wins of Flash (the terran player with the highest number of wins) Career accumulative percentage: 231% Team league points: 2.31 points Total career points: 12.31 points 13) Nal_rA Stout MSL: 2 rounds as the sole representative of his race NHN Hangame OGN StarLeague: 1 round as the sole representative of his race Cen Game MSL: 3 rounds as the sole representative of his race Pringles MSL S1: 1 round as the sole representative of his race Pringles MSL S2: 1 round as the sole representative of his race Career total: 8 rounds as the sole representative of his race Individual league points: 8 points 2003 team leagues: 62% of wins of fOru (the protoss player with the highest number of wins) 2004 team leagues: 117% of wins of Reach (the protoss player with the next highest number of wins) 2005 team leagues: 75% of wins of Stork (the protoss player with the next highest number of wins) 2006 team leagues: 36% of the wins of Anytime (the protoss player with the highest number of wins) 2007 team leagues: 33% of the wins of Free (the protoss player with the next highest number of wins) 2008 team leagues: 21% of the wins of JangBi (the protoss player with the highest number of wins) Career accumulative percentage: 334% Team league points: 3.34 points Total career points: 11.34 points | ||
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
On January 15 2016 06:29 Letmelose wrote: 2) Flash Total: 420 points He's not number one? Well, that's still pretty high... | ||
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Yodo2015
1 Post
1. Nada 2. Flash 3. Jaedong 4. Boxer 5. Savior 6. Iloveoov 7. Stork 8. Bisu 9. July 10. Yellow 11. Nal_ra 12. Gorush 13. Reach 14. Xellos | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On February 08 2018 09:24 Yodo2015 wrote: Tbh, if I had to make a list it would be 1. Nada 2. Flash 3. Jaedong 4. Boxer 5. Savior 6. Iloveoov 7. Stork 8. Bisu 9. July 10. Yellow 11. Nal_ra 12. Gorush 13. Reach 14. Xellos Looking back, I'm noticing some major flaws in the actual set up of the point system, but it isn't such a terrible system of rating the overall body of work as a professional. If I had to do another list given the identical topic, I'd probably redefine some of the metrics involved, but it is too much of a hassle to be honest. NaDa is by far the most impressive player in all of history in terms of his longetivity at the professional level, but Stork has him beat in one singular category, which is more than what can be said for anyone else. Longetivity at the round of sixteen level Stork's longetivity at the round of sixteen level (Stork's first professional match at the round of sixteen ~ Stork's last ever appearance at the round of sixteen): 2602 days apart NaDa's longetivity at the round of sixteen level (NaDa's first professional match at the round of sixteen ~ Stork's last ever appearance at the round of sixteen): 2565 days apart Stork has taken part in 17 OGN StarLeagues, which is an all-time record ahead of the likes of BoxeR and NaDa who both participated in 14 if I remember correctly. He was a near constant fixture for the OGN StarLeagues from 2005 to 2012, which means that Stork was always there for a mind blowing seven years or so, a number only NaDa can compare to. Stork was the key one-versus-one player for Samsung Khan ever since SKY 2005 ProLeague R1 (most number of one-versus-one victories out of Samsung Khan players for that particular ProLeague season), and was the protoss player with the most number of victories in SK Planet 2011/2012 ProLeague S1 (the last ever proper Brood War ProLeague). While he often fell short of making a strong lasting impression, Stork was always one of the best performing protoss players in both the ProLeague and the individual leagues since 2005 all the way up to 2012. Sure he had some dips in form (especially so in 2006), but he was always in the conversation for the title of the best protoss around. Not only was he the part of the Six Dragons (Bisu, Stork, JangBi, Kal, free, and BeSt), he was also part of the Neo Protoss Triumvirate (Anytime, PuSan, and Stork). While Stork never had much luck with having great nicknames, he was represented in numerous group nicknames than almost any other player due to his longetivity. It explains why Stork has more top ten ProLeague season performances (especially before the introduction of the year-long seasons) than any other protoss players in history (although Bisu had way higher highs, he also had his fair share of really terrible seasons). It also explains why Stork has appeared in more finals, semi-finals. quarter-finals, and round of sixteens than any protoss players in history. It explains why Stork represented Korea more than any other player in history at the World Cyber Games (2007, 2008, and 2009) save Jaedong, when a lot of all time greats struggled to make multiple appearances due to the relative scarcity of the tournament compared to its longetivity. NaDa, Jaedong, and Stork are the top players of all time in terms of overall number of televised victories for their respective races. It becomes rather easy to rate NaDa and Jaedong because they also have the accolades to complement their long lasting legacies. With Stork, during his absolute peak as a player, in mid-2007 to early-2008, he was, as far as I'm concerned, the greatest player of that era. He reached three consecutive finals (GomTV MSL S2, EVER 2007 OGN StarLeague, Bacchus 2008 OGN StarLeague), won the ProLeague for Samsung Khan as the regular season and finals MVP, and won the WCG gold medal for Korea when sAviOr fell flat on his face and got knocked out by PJ. Despite his lack of major individual league titles, there is nobody who can come even close to him during this particular time-frame in terms of overall body of work across both individual leagues and the ProLeague. Not a bad peak for some, being the greatest player of the era on a technicality rather than convincing his doubters on the big stage. However, Stork's greatest peak was severely lacking for somebody who could represent the greatest protoss professional in terms of overall body of work. That is why I think people tend to shy away from the idea of him being potentially the greatest protoss player of all time. The greatest protoss player of all time at the height of his powers handing away three consecutive championships to rivals who each had more memorable peaks as professionals, it just doesn't sound right. With Stork and Bisu, their competitive results can be weighed differently depending on how one weighs peaks and longetivity. This particular blog put quite heavy emphasis on being great across different eras, and while having 50 ProLeague victories in a single season is more memorable, it didn't necessarily give greater points than winning 50 ProLeague matches across multiple seasons, which is why players who were truly fantastic in short burts tended to be rated lower here. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
I personally don't put too much emphasis on how close someone was to being considered a bonjwa. Stork was never in the discussion of being considered as a bonjwa despite his extensive career at the top. Bonjwa is more about being memorable at the right moments, and making sure to create a strong enough impression, and it is why players like iloveoov, and sAviOr are so fondly remembered even to this date regardless of their overall body of work. One could argue that sAviOr at his absolute peak was more of a bonjwa than Jaedong ever was (although that too is not as clear cut as people make it out to be once you throw away the folklorish nature of his legacy and actually get down to the actual achievements and results), but it is undeniable that Jaedong puts sAviOr's career to shame once you compare their overall achievements side by side. YellOw is another all-time great whose legacy is hard to properly gauge due to his extensive body of work being in such terrible sync with his major individual league trophy case. Common sense might lead us to think that second place finishes or quarter-final appearances would be superior to be knocked out in the preliminary stages, but the way in which Stork is perceived as being somewhat weak for losing to the top players of each era across multiple seasons makes me think otherwise. sAviOr losing quietly in the offline qualifiers to no-name players like Bubble created less mockery towards the player than Stork did for losing to high calibre players in all those quarter-finals, semi-finals, and finals. Since I'm not factoring in other elements such as meta-game influences, in-game level of skill, and overall popularity, and just sheer results earned as professionals, I think depending on how one weighs the results, it isn't that strange to argue that Stork achieved more as a professional than any other protoss in history. His career was simply too outstanding in terms of longetivity, and it is something that is tremendously hard to achieve. There are two players who qualified/seeded-in for literally every single Ongamenet StarLeague from 2007 to 2012, and that happens to be Stork and Flash. If there was an award for perfect attendance, Stork would be up there with some of the greatest, and that sturdy reliability to put forth respectable results deligently regardless of form, the map pool, and motivation is something that people severely underestimate in Stork. It certainly isn't sexy, but it is something that people often overlook, and this blog offers, I hope, the other side of the narrative. Sea ended up being 19th on this list despite having never reached even the round of four during his entire career. His ability to consistently qualify for the lower stages of the individual leagues, and do his part for his team in the ProLeague for numerous seasons simply accumulated over time to dwarf potentially more exciting players such as fOrGG, who looked like a monster by defeating Flash and Jaedong back-to-back under a best-of-five setting, but was basically a one hit wonder outside of that. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
EffOrt versus ZerO: EffOrt had that unforgettable reverse-sweep versus Flash, and there is that what-if factor to him due to his year-long break from gaming in the middle of his career. However, in terms of overall results, I don't think it is unfair to say that ZerO had a more productive professional career than EffOrt. JangBi versus Kal: JangBi was the more explosive player out of the two, and reached multiple finals when he was in form. Kal was a player who was good enough to be the ace player of his team, and was more successful in terms of keeping his form at an acceptable level even if he struggled really hard versus the likes of Flash and Jaedong. While I do believe JangBi was the greater player out of the two, I think Kal is one of the most underrated players of all-time. Not only that, I think JangBi's legacy as a professional is highly overblown due to his memorable end to his professional Brood War career. JangBi was an incredible talent at the game that failed to convert his ability at the game into professional results for the vast majority of his career whether it was due to nerves, motivational issues, or emotional instability. There is a reason for why JangBi has such a shallow body of work in terms of the number of leagues he qualified for, or why his results in the ProLeague were so mediocre compared to his talent. This blog wrecks sexy players whose careers are largely dependent on being able to capture the imagination of the average spectator with incredible moments of human will power or ability. This blog is about weighing the overall body of work as a professional that is fair to players of all eras. I don't agree with the method it was done in (there are some obvious flaws and mistakes), but the philosophy that underlies this effort is something I can still stand-by. | ||
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Jae Zedong
407 Posts
I think people's adulation for sexy players ties in to the fact that BW is first and foremost entertainment. "Entertain me or I don't care". This is true for pretty much any sport; people love spectacular flashes of genius and don't care if someone immediately ragequits the sport and turns antisemite after becoming world champion (Bobby Fischer). If a major film studio were to make a feature length biopic of any BW player they wanted, it wouldn't surprise me at all if they picked sAviOr. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
An example of a top sixteen performance in all three platforms of competition: Stork in mid-2007 Daum OGN StarLeague: 3rd place GomTV MSL S2: 2nd place Shinhan 2007 ProLeague R1: 3rd best record Players (exclusive to those who peaked after 2003 and before 2012) who had five or more occasions of being in the top sixteen in all three platforms of competition (Ongament StarLeague, MBC Game StarLeague, and the ProLeague) Eras where all three forms of competitions were not running simulatenously (such as when ABCMart MSL took place) will not be counted, this is purely the number of separate occasions where a player was within the top sixteen of every single KeSPA legislated competition that was on television at the time. 1. NaDa: 7 2. Flash: 6 2. Jaedong: 6 4. Stork: 5 If we single out Stork here (because let's face it, he is the odd man out from the above four), and break down all four of those occasions: 1. Mid-2007 Daum OGN StarLeague: 3rd place GomTV MSL S2: 2nd place Shinhan 2007 ProLeague R1: 3rd best record 2. Late-2007 EVER 2007 OGN StarLeague: 2nd place GomTV MSL S3: Round of 16 Shinhan 2007 ProLeague R2: 2nd best record 3. Late-2008 Incruit OGN StarLeague: 1st place Clubday MSL: Round of 8 Shinhan 2008/2009 ProLeague: 16th best record 4. Early 2010 Bacchus 2010 OGN StarLeague: 2nd place PDPop MSL: Round of 8 Shinhan 2010/2011 ProLeague: 6th best record Contrast that to sAviOr, who unlike the likes of BoxeR, and NaDa, had all of his prime included in the period where all three platforms of competition were running pretty much full-time. 1. Early 2007 Shinhan OGN StarLeague S3: 1st place GomTV MSL S1: 2nd place SKY 2006 ProLeague R2: 2nd best record That's it. Apart from that sole magical occasion when sAviOr was a top two player in every single KeSPA sanctioned competition he particpated, he was not a reliable top performer across all realms, but more of a master of his own domain, which happend to be the MBC Game StarLeague. Take away his MBC Game StarLeague performances, and sAviOr basically was a dud when competing in Ongamenet StarLeagues and the ProLeague for the vast majority of his career. There is no denying that sAviOr in late 2006 to early 2007 was almost unstoppable (for those several months, his peak was comparable to almost anyone from any era), and his legacy in the MBC Game StarLeagues is well documented, all of which went a long way into cementing some very strong impressions. Plus all the folklorish nature of his ascension, the genius of his playstyle, his badboy image, and his catastrophic fall from grace all adds to his mystique. However, from a pure result oriented perspective, his actual accomplishments and overall body of work is not that impressive compared to his legend. If one were to just consider the peak form and title count, yes sAviOr is head and shoulders above the likes of Stork, but if we were to consider longetivity and overall body of work, Stork shits all over sAviOr. I don't think it is as clear cut as some make it out to be. Yes, sAviOr is probably the greatest MBC Game StarLeague player after NaDa, but what is he outside of that? Four OGN StarLeague appearances and one year of good ProLeague performance. That's barely a year's worth of schedule if we were to run those tournaments non-stop simultaneously. Stork is one of the greatest OGN StarLeague and ProLeague performers of all-time mostly due to his superlative longetivity at the highest level. Even his MBC Game StarLeague credentials are way more impressive as a whole compared to the one-hit wonder nature of sAviOr's career outside of the context of the MBC Game StarLeague. sAviOr qualified for less OGN StarLeagues than friggin' MuMyung in his entire career, and won less ProLeague matches than zerg players such as HyuN and hyvaa. Let that sink in for a moment. The dude is the last ever bonjwa before the rise of Taek-Beng-LeeSsang (meaning that he should have had way more spring in his step when combating the next wave of challengers than the likes of NaDa who was around since 2000), and it is rather astounding how far people are willing to forget his embarassing moments. It is as if his career was indeed a movie, and people are only remembering the edited version of his professional career where he overcame all obstacles to obtain the title of bonjwa in early 2007, and forgetting his really embarassing preliminary stage defeats he suffered at the hands of numerous no-name opponents, and his mediocre ProLeague performance (outside of the 2006 season) even before he tried his hand in match-fixing. Sure, once we only look into his greatest hits, sAviOr's career was electrifying and spectacular. The nature of his ascension, and his fall from grace, are all incredible narratives worthy of a feature length film, but we're not discussing how mesmerizing certain players were. This blog was purposefully modelled to cut all that fluff out for sheer professional results, and from that perspective alone, sAviOr is one of the most overrated players of all-time. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
I would like to ask how would you evaluate post Kespa tournaments results from 2016 to 2018; obviously they aren't comparable to Golden age Starleagues but i think they should have a weight. In particular, would Flash spectacular 2017 ASL run make an argument of him being the best of all time over NaDa? | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On November 05 2018 04:06 Xain0n wrote: I apologize for posting that late, but i am kind of new to this forum and stepped into this thread just today. I would like to ask how would you evaluate post Kespa tournaments results from 2016 to 2018; obviously they aren't comparable to Golden age Starleagues but i think they should have a weight. In particular, would Flash spectacular 2017 ASL run make an argument of him being the best of all time over NaDa? I will always separate judging competitive results from players into two eras (professional era, and the current non-professional era), for the following reasons: 1) It is way too difficult to equalize for the changes in circumstance that happened, whereas I can rationalize artificially weighing the results in a manner that equalizes a fantastic performance in 2001, to a similarly impressive performance in 2009, from a pointing system perspective. This ranking, as flawed and full of mistakes as it is (I would probably tweak a lot of the criterion, and clean up on some of the errors like messing up on the details of some tournaments), giving different results if I repeated the same process, I still somewhat stand by the essence of its nature. I tried to weigh each era equally, and not penalize the eras for its lack of prize pools, or differences in the nature of the tournaments. If BoxeR competed in an era where the OGN StarLeague, Game-Q StarLeague, and WCG had more prestige than the team leagues of that era, I wouldn't penalize him for the ProLeague not existing yet, and tried to give more points to tournaments that mattered at the time, even if they later died out, or got replaced by other tournaments. So instead of judging all players with a modern eye (OGN StarLeague, MBC Game StarLeague, and the ProLeague), I tried to make it so that players who played before the creation of the MBC Game StarLeague, and the ProLeague weren't penalized for dominating other tournaments that happened in place of those non-existent tournaments. However, such an attempt becomes much harder now, due to multitudes of circumstances, with some players not participating, tournaments being held erratically, and the general hierarchy and structure of competitive Brood War not being as concrete as before. 2) Despite the ever changing nature of the past professional scene in general, there were two things that remained true: - Professional players were obligated to always give their all, and if they didn't it was a character flaw within themselves, not a problem in the system. A player who consistenly failed in the offline qualifiers, and struggled to make a name for himself in the ProLeague, was a player who failed to adapt to the professional scene, and thus could be judged harshly due to his lack of results. Right now, I don't even know I should blame players for concentrating more on their stream compared to their competitive merit, considering how lucrative their actual streaming career is. Even championship winning players like Rain has said that it is better to focus on making his stream better, than trying to get better as a player. Players drop out of tournaments if they feel too stressed. These are their personal choices, and I can't blame them as I did for the professional era because their financial success is not as correlated to their competitive success. Sure, even back in the professional years, financial success wasn't directly correlated to their competitive merit, but it was much more correlated than it is now. - Influx of new talent was always a thing, although it varied across different eras. It meant that holders of the throne had to protect his crown versus endless waves of new and hungry challengers, and all of them inevitably collapsed, it was all a matter of when. As of now, the influx of new talent has been next to non-existent for years on end, and it is just the same old people butting their heads against each other non-stop. With all of that being said, if I were to give the title of the greatest Brood War player, not professional player, disregarding all of what I said above, I would end up giving that title to Flash most likely. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
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