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So I got randomly into the beta (they didn't even bother to tell me, but I checked my account wishfully from time to time  ). I haven't played that many games, but so far my feelings are a little bit mixed. Maybe this game will be a "better ESPORT", but I am not sure how much it will be liked by more casual players. I myself play SC2 a lot (there are some 4500 games on my account) but am still pretty bad in it (gold now, never above plat) - and LoTV gives me the impression that it really wants to show me how bad I am. The new economy has basically turned the game into SimCity for me, as managing the constantly shifting bases takes most of my attention. The moment somebody harrases me enough, I can never seem to be able to get any semblance of optimal mining ever again and just fall apart.
Apparently it's not only my problem, as I was just playing a game where I felt really, really desperate (and that's the world that describes my overall feeling from playing LoTV the best) - and then my oponent gg-ed, because he was likely feeling even worse off. We both had a shitload of bases across the whole map (as in almost every base on bloody Echo taken), but apparently that's still not enough to make you feel not losing in LoTV.
Hand in hand with this comes another observation: there seems to be a lot of cool stuff added into LoTV, most of which doesn't really matter if you aren't fast enough. I have gotten at least some grip of the Zerg stuff after trying the various units, but I have absolutely no idea what Cyclones or Liberators - they have some animations that probably do something, but I just don't have the time to care during the game, as in LoTV I must play at 100%, not watch some units I can't give orders to. What is the point of all this cool stuff then? Well, you can watch it on stream - or in replay, as I did today to see what the hell (my own) Parasitic Bombs do ... It's not just the extensive base management, but also becasue most of the new stuff needs me to actively do something with it, eating even deeper into any free time I may have during the game.
Yes, it's sometimes fun - I love Lurkers in particular, it's almost BM to take 15 Lurkers, run up to the oponents army, burrow them in their face and BOOM the army is gone (if it's for example just gateway units or pure roach. But I don't think that this will really fly with people even slightly more casual than myself, the game is quickly turning into BW 2.0, at least when it comes to mechanical demand.
The upside is that after some LoTV I will probably feel absolutely godly coming but to the easy relaxed game that is HoTS.
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On June 17 2015 04:11 opisska wrote:
I am not sure how much it will be liked by more casual players.
If someone is a "casual player", they aren't going be playing 1v1 on the ladder, and if they do, while considering themselves to be "casual", then they are complete idiots. There are all these game modes; 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, 4v4, and a thousand Custom Games, so there are plenty of options for casual players and their friends to mess around in, especially in the custom games. Saying "Oh, this is too mechanically demanding for casuals" is like complaining that Counterstrike is bad for casuals because it doesn't have auto-aim. If you don't like it, you're always free to play Angry Birds, Candy Crush, The Sims, or some easy flight simulator.
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Well, I spent a month pretty much trying and failing at 12pools. But I'm only plat on my best day. I'm extremely curious (.....) as to how Korean progamers will respond to the changes.
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On June 17 2015 07:07 ninazerg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2015 04:11 opisska wrote:
I am not sure how much it will be liked by more casual players. If someone is a "casual player", they aren't going be playing 1v1 on the ladder, and if they do, while considering themselves to be "casual", then they are complete idiots. There are all these game modes; 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, 4v4, and a thousand Custom Games, so there are plenty of options for casual players and their friends to mess around in, especially in the custom games. Saying "Oh, this is too mechanically demanding for casuals" is like complaining that Counterstrike is bad for casuals because it doesn't have auto-aim. If you don't like it, you're always free to play Angry Birds, Candy Crush, The Sims, or some easy flight simulator.
He's not talking about "casual players" though, but about "more casual players", which to me implies players who play SC2 1v1 regularly, but as a game more than as an eSport, which is probably a very high % of the playerbase.
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On June 17 2015 15:48 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2015 07:07 ninazerg wrote:On June 17 2015 04:11 opisska wrote:
I am not sure how much it will be liked by more casual players. If someone is a "casual player", they aren't going be playing 1v1 on the ladder, and if they do, while considering themselves to be "casual", then they are complete idiots. There are all these game modes; 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, 4v4, and a thousand Custom Games, so there are plenty of options for casual players and their friends to mess around in, especially in the custom games. Saying "Oh, this is too mechanically demanding for casuals" is like complaining that Counterstrike is bad for casuals because it doesn't have auto-aim. If you don't like it, you're always free to play Angry Birds, Candy Crush, The Sims, or some easy flight simulator. He's not talking about "casual players" though, but about "more casual players", which to me implies players who play SC2 1v1 regularly, but as a game more than as an eSport, which is probably a very high % of the playerbase.
That would be talking to some friends and being like "Want to maybe play some 1v1s?" and if you're all noobs, it doesn't matter what you do. Anytime you play a strategy game with economy management in real time, you're going to need a certain amount of dexterity to control your stuff, and that is going to take practice whether you consider yourself 'casual' or not.
You know what I get though? I get that people don't want to lose. When people lost in HotS, they blamed the game for being too simple. If LotV requires more effort, people will blame the game for being too hard. I don't know how LotV will end up being, but I'm sure people will find something to complain about.
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On June 17 2015 16:01 ninazerg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2015 15:48 OtherWorld wrote:On June 17 2015 07:07 ninazerg wrote:On June 17 2015 04:11 opisska wrote:
I am not sure how much it will be liked by more casual players. If someone is a "casual player", they aren't going be playing 1v1 on the ladder, and if they do, while considering themselves to be "casual", then they are complete idiots. There are all these game modes; 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, 4v4, and a thousand Custom Games, so there are plenty of options for casual players and their friends to mess around in, especially in the custom games. Saying "Oh, this is too mechanically demanding for casuals" is like complaining that Counterstrike is bad for casuals because it doesn't have auto-aim. If you don't like it, you're always free to play Angry Birds, Candy Crush, The Sims, or some easy flight simulator. He's not talking about "casual players" though, but about "more casual players", which to me implies players who play SC2 1v1 regularly, but as a game more than as an eSport, which is probably a very high % of the playerbase. That would be talking to some friends and being like "Want to maybe play some 1v1s?" and if you're all noobs, it doesn't matter what you do. Anytime you play a strategy game with economy management in real time, you're going to need a certain amount of dexterity to control your stuff, and that is going to take practice whether you consider yourself 'casual' or not. You know what I get though? I get that people don't want to lose. When people lost in HotS, they blamed the game for being too simple. If LotV requires more effort, people will blame the game for being too hard. I don't know how LotV will end up being, but I'm sure people will find something to complain about.
Apart from you unnecessarry agressivness towards anyone who plays the game with different mindset from you, I don't think we are in that much of a disagreement. However my entire point was that the amount of required dexterity feels to me much higher in LoTV than in previous instalments of SC2 and that I presume that the set of people willing to invest that much effort into the game could be quite limited.
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I'm a jeans-wearing, lackadaisical casual in SC2. I play at most 4 or 5 games a week. Often 1 or 2. Sometimes none. I obviously can't speak for all of my fellow casual, distracted, unserious SC2 playing peers, but the complexity of the game is one of its biggest attractions. The rushed harmony and pianist-like coordination required to simultaneously keep your supply flowing, your minimap lit, and your armies spread is the whole beauty of the game to me. Throw in a few tactical maneuvers and you have a really masterful symphony of focused fingers.
Naturally, I'll never be able to play the game to its potential. But people take up hobbies all the time without necessarily making it their number one interest. People learn instruments only intending to play a few simple tunes and maybe compose a neat riff now and then.
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On June 17 2015 16:39 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2015 16:01 ninazerg wrote:On June 17 2015 15:48 OtherWorld wrote:On June 17 2015 07:07 ninazerg wrote:On June 17 2015 04:11 opisska wrote:
I am not sure how much it will be liked by more casual players. If someone is a "casual player", they aren't going be playing 1v1 on the ladder, and if they do, while considering themselves to be "casual", then they are complete idiots. There are all these game modes; 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, 4v4, and a thousand Custom Games, so there are plenty of options for casual players and their friends to mess around in, especially in the custom games. Saying "Oh, this is too mechanically demanding for casuals" is like complaining that Counterstrike is bad for casuals because it doesn't have auto-aim. If you don't like it, you're always free to play Angry Birds, Candy Crush, The Sims, or some easy flight simulator. He's not talking about "casual players" though, but about "more casual players", which to me implies players who play SC2 1v1 regularly, but as a game more than as an eSport, which is probably a very high % of the playerbase. That would be talking to some friends and being like "Want to maybe play some 1v1s?" and if you're all noobs, it doesn't matter what you do. Anytime you play a strategy game with economy management in real time, you're going to need a certain amount of dexterity to control your stuff, and that is going to take practice whether you consider yourself 'casual' or not. You know what I get though? I get that people don't want to lose. When people lost in HotS, they blamed the game for being too simple. If LotV requires more effort, people will blame the game for being too hard. I don't know how LotV will end up being, but I'm sure people will find something to complain about. Apart from you unnecessarry agressivness towards anyone who plays the game with different mindset from you, I don't think we are in that much of a disagreement. However my entire point was that the amount of required dexterity feels to me much higher in LoTV than in previous instalments of SC2 and that I presume that the set of people willing to invest that much effort into the game could be quite limited.
First, I don't play the game we're discussing. Second, even if I did, I'm not 'unnecessarry agressivness' towards people who think differently than I do. Sometimes, I'm just very direct. So if SC2 isn't everyone's cup of tea (which it never will be) then so be it. If people want to play an easy game, they can go play an easy game. If they want to play a challenging game, they can play a challenging game.
So I guess my question to you is: Why does it matter you if "the set of people willing to invest that much effort into the game could be quite limited"?
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On June 17 2015 18:21 ninazerg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2015 16:39 opisska wrote:On June 17 2015 16:01 ninazerg wrote:On June 17 2015 15:48 OtherWorld wrote:On June 17 2015 07:07 ninazerg wrote:On June 17 2015 04:11 opisska wrote:
I am not sure how much it will be liked by more casual players. If someone is a "casual player", they aren't going be playing 1v1 on the ladder, and if they do, while considering themselves to be "casual", then they are complete idiots. There are all these game modes; 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, 4v4, and a thousand Custom Games, so there are plenty of options for casual players and their friends to mess around in, especially in the custom games. Saying "Oh, this is too mechanically demanding for casuals" is like complaining that Counterstrike is bad for casuals because it doesn't have auto-aim. If you don't like it, you're always free to play Angry Birds, Candy Crush, The Sims, or some easy flight simulator. He's not talking about "casual players" though, but about "more casual players", which to me implies players who play SC2 1v1 regularly, but as a game more than as an eSport, which is probably a very high % of the playerbase. That would be talking to some friends and being like "Want to maybe play some 1v1s?" and if you're all noobs, it doesn't matter what you do. Anytime you play a strategy game with economy management in real time, you're going to need a certain amount of dexterity to control your stuff, and that is going to take practice whether you consider yourself 'casual' or not. You know what I get though? I get that people don't want to lose. When people lost in HotS, they blamed the game for being too simple. If LotV requires more effort, people will blame the game for being too hard. I don't know how LotV will end up being, but I'm sure people will find something to complain about. Apart from you unnecessarry agressivness towards anyone who plays the game with different mindset from you, I don't think we are in that much of a disagreement. However my entire point was that the amount of required dexterity feels to me much higher in LoTV than in previous instalments of SC2 and that I presume that the set of people willing to invest that much effort into the game could be quite limited. First, I don't play the game we're discussing. Second, even if I did, I'm not 'unnecessarry agressivness' towards people who think differently than I do. Sometimes, I'm just very direct. So if SC2 isn't everyone's cup of tea (which it never will be) then so be it. If people want to play an easy game, they can go play an easy game. If they want to play a challenging game, they can play a challenging game. So I guess my question to you is: Why does it matter you if "the set of people willing to invest that much effort into the game could be quite limited"?
You are also unnecessarry agressivness towards people who do not spellcheck their posts!
It does matter, because I like StarCraft, I would like it to be supported, fixed, patched, and maybe some time in the future to get another version. All of this is the likely the less people buy and play LoTV obviously, because Blizzard is not working on the games as a charity. I am not saying that it should be an easy game, but I think WoL and HoTS are pretty demanding already and am a little worried that LoTV seems to take it even further.
I also think that casual 1v1 is a thing and the game should be built with that in mind - and WoL/HoTS do pretty good job in that regard - while for BW this is the place where it really fails and that's why the "casuals" in BW almost never played normal 1v1. I do not subrscibe to the theory that "casuals" do not play ladder in SC2, the whole "ladder anxiety" thing is an inflated nonsense perpetrate by a couple of peopel who need to feel important and who the hell do you thing composes the whole half of the playerbase that is gold, silver and bronze?
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You're making LotV sound like a fun and interesting game
I may have to try it
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LotV is quite simply an upgrade. While fun and interesting HotS was not what players were looking for. Now there is a real emphasis on map presence, and players going all over the place has been abruptly halted. The tragedy is that LotV didn't come sooner than it did, and that players were forced into sub-optimal practice regimens when the big game was still ahead. I honestly don't see the Sim City connection, though, what with the abysmal state of infrastructure at newly claimed expansions, and the necessity of defending the main in a hyper-aggressive meta, it seems the only redemption possible for Starcraft 2 was a return of IdrA and the halo of his guiding light.
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On June 17 2015 18:44 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2015 18:21 ninazerg wrote:On June 17 2015 16:39 opisska wrote:On June 17 2015 16:01 ninazerg wrote:On June 17 2015 15:48 OtherWorld wrote:On June 17 2015 07:07 ninazerg wrote:On June 17 2015 04:11 opisska wrote:
I am not sure how much it will be liked by more casual players. If someone is a "casual player", they aren't going be playing 1v1 on the ladder, and if they do, while considering themselves to be "casual", then they are complete idiots. There are all these game modes; 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, 4v4, and a thousand Custom Games, so there are plenty of options for casual players and their friends to mess around in, especially in the custom games. Saying "Oh, this is too mechanically demanding for casuals" is like complaining that Counterstrike is bad for casuals because it doesn't have auto-aim. If you don't like it, you're always free to play Angry Birds, Candy Crush, The Sims, or some easy flight simulator. He's not talking about "casual players" though, but about "more casual players", which to me implies players who play SC2 1v1 regularly, but as a game more than as an eSport, which is probably a very high % of the playerbase. That would be talking to some friends and being like "Want to maybe play some 1v1s?" and if you're all noobs, it doesn't matter what you do. Anytime you play a strategy game with economy management in real time, you're going to need a certain amount of dexterity to control your stuff, and that is going to take practice whether you consider yourself 'casual' or not. You know what I get though? I get that people don't want to lose. When people lost in HotS, they blamed the game for being too simple. If LotV requires more effort, people will blame the game for being too hard. I don't know how LotV will end up being, but I'm sure people will find something to complain about. Apart from you unnecessarry agressivness towards anyone who plays the game with different mindset from you, I don't think we are in that much of a disagreement. However my entire point was that the amount of required dexterity feels to me much higher in LoTV than in previous instalments of SC2 and that I presume that the set of people willing to invest that much effort into the game could be quite limited. First, I don't play the game we're discussing. Second, even if I did, I'm not 'unnecessarry agressivness' towards people who think differently than I do. Sometimes, I'm just very direct. So if SC2 isn't everyone's cup of tea (which it never will be) then so be it. If people want to play an easy game, they can go play an easy game. If they want to play a challenging game, they can play a challenging game. So I guess my question to you is: Why does it matter you if "the set of people willing to invest that much effort into the game could be quite limited"? You are also unnecessarry agressivness towards people who do not spellcheck their posts! It does matter, because I like StarCraft, I would like it to be supported, fixed, patched, and maybe some time in the future to get another version. All of this is the likely the less people buy and play LoTV obviously, because Blizzard is not working on the games as a charity. I am not saying that it should be an easy game, but I think WoL and HoTS are pretty demanding already and am a little worried that LoTV seems to take it even further. I also think that casual 1v1 is a thing and the game should be built with that in mind - and WoL/HoTS do pretty good job in that regard - while for BW this is the place where it really fails and that's why the "casuals" in BW almost never played normal 1v1. I do not subrscibe to the theory that "casuals" do not play ladder in SC2, the whole "ladder anxiety" thing is an inflated nonsense perpetrate by a couple of peopel who need to feel important and who the hell do you thing composes the whole half of the playerbase that is gold, silver and bronze?
People do play BW casually.
To me it sounds really stupid to complain about stuff like this. Football, soccer, baseball and basketball are all so difficult (maybe even more difficult than Starcraft). A beginner would have problems getting the ball through the net, and a worse stands 0 chance at winning a better team if the skill gap is big enough. Yet it is not common to complain in the same way people do with games.
Nina is saying that people are externalising blame when they feel bad about losing. Hence if they cannot stand losing or feeling like they are bad (which is normal for anything from playing an instrument to maths to basketball, we are all relatively bad compared to the pros), they should play a different game like Angry birds where everybody is a winner.
Another example of externalising blame: People blaming maths, learning languages for being "too difficult" when they are actually just lazy or didn't put in the effort.
Personally, I think that it's due to the current trend of mindless or one finger tapping games that are the norm for games now. No one has ever complained like that in the past when every game was as hard as BW. The closest thing I've heard of is the terrible terrible balance whine in WC3replays.
Also, it is easier to think that you're good at an instrument or a sport because you're not aware of your real skill level because you're not comparing yourself with everyone else like on the ladder if you're a casual. Moreover, you can safely be in denial of your real skill, unlike in the ladder.
Case in point: American Idol contestants who are horrible. Contrarily, a player in Silver would never have an inflated idea of his skill level, thinking he's the best(unless he is that stupid).
In short, I've heard all of this before from other similar places and situations. Less whinging. More gg more skill. GL
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On June 17 2015 07:07 ninazerg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2015 04:11 opisska wrote:
I am not sure how much it will be liked by more casual players. If someone is a "casual player", they aren't going be playing 1v1 on the ladder, and if they do, while considering themselves to be "casual", then they are complete idiots. There are all these game modes; 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, 4v4, and a thousand Custom Games, so there are plenty of options for casual players and their friends to mess around in, especially in the custom games. Saying "Oh, this is too mechanically demanding for casuals" is like complaining that Counterstrike is bad for casuals because it doesn't have auto-aim. If you don't like it, you're always free to play Angry Birds, Candy Crush, The Sims, or some easy flight simulator.
This is absolute nonsense.
I pick up CS every few years it seems and play a few games here and there, I play it casually by any definition and you know what, I'm actually pretty damn good at it, I'm not #MLGPro but if I've played even a handful of games I can do well enough and often win outright if I'm playing gun game (appreciate this is a more casual mode). I've never played CS competitively, my most active period was probably 10+ years ago.
My total lifetime experience playing FPS games has given me a good frame to return to the game at any point I feel like I play well, maybe my first 2-3 games after a year long absence will suck but I also don't really play other FPS games, I'm just good at games in general, mostly because I have played a lot.
SC2 makes it almost impossible for me to want to play it any more. I hit high diamond 9 seasons in a row and regularly played masters players on ladder. It is easily the most consuming game I've ever played, outlasting MMO's and anything on consoles but I can't return to it, I fucking suck now, I tried and got plat which in HotS I could enjoy a bit, I still felt like a shitty player but it wasn't awful and I hoped LotV would be better but the beta so far has been completely the opposite. I feel like every game is pure desperation and when I lose I lose because I couldn't keep up with the pace of the game, I know what I want to do but my ageing hands couldn't keep up. It feels like those years I played were for nothing because now its all gone.
You just can't stay competitive in this game if you don't play on a regular basis and this is not a common theme among other 'hardcore' games, I can play almost any other genre (except MOBAs, never got into them but I imagine its not hard to return as they aren't so mechanically demanding) casually and still feel like I'm doing well, I obviously don't expect to be king with no practice, that's just unreasonable but I can still enjoy the game at a level I feel reflects my efforts.
I want to play 1v1 casually, I want to be able to pick up the game, get placed in gold or plat and have a good time playing a few games every month, maybe more, maybe less but you just can't, the game is too mechanically and strategically demanding to allow that kind of mentality, I can play in those leagues but it feels shit and LotV seems to be pushing it even harder away from that.
All in all I'm fine with that if its what Blizzard and the community want, there are plenty of other games to play, but don't trash this guy because he is disappointed and wants something different, Starcraft is the exception here, not the rule. LoL can be played incredibly casually, as can Hearthstone, CS or a myriad of other titles (maybe Tribes is an exception here too but not the same extent as SC2).
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On June 18 2015 18:45 adwodon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2015 07:07 ninazerg wrote:On June 17 2015 04:11 opisska wrote:
I am not sure how much it will be liked by more casual players. If someone is a "casual player", they aren't going be playing 1v1 on the ladder, and if they do, while considering themselves to be "casual", then they are complete idiots. There are all these game modes; 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, 4v4, and a thousand Custom Games, so there are plenty of options for casual players and their friends to mess around in, especially in the custom games. Saying "Oh, this is too mechanically demanding for casuals" is like complaining that Counterstrike is bad for casuals because it doesn't have auto-aim. If you don't like it, you're always free to play Angry Birds, Candy Crush, The Sims, or some easy flight simulator. This is absolute nonsense. I pick up CS every few years it seems and play a few games here and there, I play it casually by any definition and you know what, I'm actually pretty damn good at it, I'm not #MLGPro but if I've played even a handful of games I can do well enough and often win outright if I'm playing gun game (appreciate this is a more casual mode). I've never played CS competitively, my most active period was probably 10+ years ago. My total lifetime experience playing FPS games has given me a good frame to return to the game at any point I feel like I play well, maybe my first 2-3 games after a year long absence will suck but I also don't really play other FPS games, I'm just good at games in general, mostly because I have played a lot. SC2 makes it almost impossible for me to want to play it any more. I hit high diamond 9 seasons in a row and regularly played masters players on ladder. It is easily the most consuming game I've ever played, outlasting MMO's and anything on consoles but I can't return to it, I fucking suck now, I tried and got plat which in HotS I could enjoy a bit, I still felt like a shitty player but it wasn't awful and I hoped LotV would be better but the beta so far has been completely the opposite. I feel like every game is pure desperation and when I lose I lose because I couldn't keep up with the pace of the game, I know what I want to do but my ageing hands couldn't keep up. It feels like those years I played were for nothing because now its all gone. You just can't stay competitive in this game if you don't play on a regular basis and this is not a common theme among other 'hardcore' games, I can play almost any other genre (except MOBAs, never got into them but I imagine its not hard to return as they aren't so mechanically demanding) casually and still feel like I'm doing well, I obviously don't expect to be king with no practice, that's just unreasonable but I can still enjoy the game at a level I feel reflects my efforts. I want to play 1v1 casually, I want to be able to pick up the game, get placed in gold or plat and have a good time playing a few games every month, maybe more, maybe less but you just can't, the game is too mechanically and strategically demanding to allow that kind of mentality, I can play in those leagues but it feels shit and LotV seems to be pushing it even harder away from that. All in all I'm fine with that if its what Blizzard and the community want, there are plenty of other games to play, but don't trash this guy because he is disappointed and wants something different, Starcraft is the exception here, not the rule. LoL can be played incredibly casually, as can Hearthstone, CS or a myriad of other titles (maybe Tribes is an exception here too but not the same extent as SC2).
I'd like to be able to hop in the local 5k and break 20 minutes too, running a couple times a month.
Doesn't work that way unless you have massive prior experience to draw on or lots of talent. As far as I know gold/plat is in the upper half of the playerbase, so it's unrealistic to want to pick up the game and be placed into leagues that are better than average unless you have significant prior experience to draw on.
The rest of your post I just don't understand. You can still play 1v1 casually even if the game is harder because the ladder matches you against people of similar skill. You can even do this in BW.
I fucking suck now, I tried and got plat which in HotS I could enjoy a bit, I still felt like a shitty player but it wasn't awful and I hoped LotV would be better but the beta so far has been completely the opposite. I feel like every game is pure desperation and when I lose I lose because I couldn't keep up with the pace of the game, I know what I want to do but my ageing hands couldn't keep up. It feels like those years I played were for nothing because now its all gone.
So you haven't really played starcraft in what sounds like several years and your disappointing to be struggling a bit? With a little practice your hands would get right back up to speed.
Again this is a little bit like being in shape to run 16:00 for 5k, but then complaining that after several years of never running or running infrequently you only ran 23:00. That's exactly what we would expect to happen.
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On June 19 2015 00:47 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2015 18:45 adwodon wrote:On June 17 2015 07:07 ninazerg wrote:On June 17 2015 04:11 opisska wrote:
I am not sure how much it will be liked by more casual players. If someone is a "casual player", they aren't going be playing 1v1 on the ladder, and if they do, while considering themselves to be "casual", then they are complete idiots. There are all these game modes; 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, 4v4, and a thousand Custom Games, so there are plenty of options for casual players and their friends to mess around in, especially in the custom games. Saying "Oh, this is too mechanically demanding for casuals" is like complaining that Counterstrike is bad for casuals because it doesn't have auto-aim. If you don't like it, you're always free to play Angry Birds, Candy Crush, The Sims, or some easy flight simulator. This is absolute nonsense. I pick up CS every few years it seems and play a few games here and there, I play it casually by any definition and you know what, I'm actually pretty damn good at it, I'm not #MLGPro but if I've played even a handful of games I can do well enough and often win outright if I'm playing gun game (appreciate this is a more casual mode). I've never played CS competitively, my most active period was probably 10+ years ago. My total lifetime experience playing FPS games has given me a good frame to return to the game at any point I feel like I play well, maybe my first 2-3 games after a year long absence will suck but I also don't really play other FPS games, I'm just good at games in general, mostly because I have played a lot. SC2 makes it almost impossible for me to want to play it any more. I hit high diamond 9 seasons in a row and regularly played masters players on ladder. It is easily the most consuming game I've ever played, outlasting MMO's and anything on consoles but I can't return to it, I fucking suck now, I tried and got plat which in HotS I could enjoy a bit, I still felt like a shitty player but it wasn't awful and I hoped LotV would be better but the beta so far has been completely the opposite. I feel like every game is pure desperation and when I lose I lose because I couldn't keep up with the pace of the game, I know what I want to do but my ageing hands couldn't keep up. It feels like those years I played were for nothing because now its all gone. You just can't stay competitive in this game if you don't play on a regular basis and this is not a common theme among other 'hardcore' games, I can play almost any other genre (except MOBAs, never got into them but I imagine its not hard to return as they aren't so mechanically demanding) casually and still feel like I'm doing well, I obviously don't expect to be king with no practice, that's just unreasonable but I can still enjoy the game at a level I feel reflects my efforts. I want to play 1v1 casually, I want to be able to pick up the game, get placed in gold or plat and have a good time playing a few games every month, maybe more, maybe less but you just can't, the game is too mechanically and strategically demanding to allow that kind of mentality, I can play in those leagues but it feels shit and LotV seems to be pushing it even harder away from that. All in all I'm fine with that if its what Blizzard and the community want, there are plenty of other games to play, but don't trash this guy because he is disappointed and wants something different, Starcraft is the exception here, not the rule. LoL can be played incredibly casually, as can Hearthstone, CS or a myriad of other titles (maybe Tribes is an exception here too but not the same extent as SC2). I'd like to be able to hop in the local 5k and break 20 minutes too, running a couple times a month. Doesn't work that way unless you have massive prior experience to draw on or lots of talent. As far as I know gold/plat is in the upper half of the playerbase, so it's unrealistic to want to pick up the game and be placed into leagues that are better than average unless you have significant prior experience to draw on. The rest of your post I just don't understand. You can still play 1v1 casually even if the game is harder because the ladder matches you against people of similar skill. You can even do this in BW. Show nested quote + I fucking suck now, I tried and got plat which in HotS I could enjoy a bit, I still felt like a shitty player but it wasn't awful and I hoped LotV would be better but the beta so far has been completely the opposite. I feel like every game is pure desperation and when I lose I lose because I couldn't keep up with the pace of the game, I know what I want to do but my ageing hands couldn't keep up. It feels like those years I played were for nothing because now its all gone. So you haven't really played starcraft in what sounds like several years and your disappointing to be struggling a bit? With a little practice your hands would get right back up to speed. Again this is a little bit like being in shape to run 16:00 for 5k, but then complaining that after several years of never running or running infrequently you only ran 23:00. That's exactly what we would expect to happen.
My problem isn't that I'm not playing in diamond / masters its more that playing in lower leagues feels much harder. Sure I can win 50% of my games, but every game feels like a ridiculous uphill battle where I spend more time trying to push myself to multitask faster than actually outplay my opponent.
Before those types of games happened but they weren't common, it made them tough but exciting against a well matched opponent. Now that happens every game and I just find it draining.
It's difficult to explain and maybe I'm explaining it incorrectly but a combination of faster expanding and more micro intensive units with more harassment options just feels like adding more straw to an already heavily burdened camel. It can help high level play, I see that.
And for the record, I had been back for 3 months before the beta and was feeling very comfortable, albeit well below my previous skill level in HotS but LotV is just so demoralising, it feels like those games where you're against a much better opponent who is constantly out multitasking and harassing you, except its not your opponent pulling you in all those directions, its your own production and army so when your actual opponent shows up it all just collapses.
Yes I can play 1v1 casually, but my point is its no longer fun as it no longer feels like its a game for people outside of master league, if I was enjoying myself my league wouldn't matter.
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I think this effect happened in Wol and HotS as well. With the player base being very diverse, the bottom leagues did not have any meta game at all, and lots of weird games came out of that. Now that HotS has been around for a while, only the persistent players remain, and they're familiar with the meta, making bronze, silver and gold seem more "organized" then it used to be.
With LotV, we're doing this all over again. Lower leagues are full of cheese/weird strategies, so many games feel like pure chaos. As people figure out the game (and some players will leave, because it's not their cup of tea) the games will probably start to be more predictable, and less of an "uphill battle"
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EPT
