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So, over the time that I have known my coach and friend, Mariuslol, he has given me lectures and info about mastery of a skill. When I made the post about the plateau yesterday, he reinforced the idea that most people while trying to master any skill are sitting on a plateau for most of the time. Learning things like this has made me look at things from an analytical/strategic point of view. When you have been doing something for a long time, lets say you have been learning MMA (mixed martial arts) for a long time. Learning the punches is good an all, but you have to be able to anticipate what you opponent is going to do and react in time. It's not all about being able to punch hard or have good endurance.
Now, lets go back to starcraft. After learning these things, I watch pros and I see little things that they do that improve their play by probably .1-.5% . These things are not that hard to do, but when you look at it for a while, they are doing like 30 of these things while still playing well. For example, worker pairing is not something that you HAVE to do, but it will increase the amount of minerals you get by about 2-4%. While watching life, Marius said that he got his first hatch down at 2:06. When I did not do worker pairing and did a hatch first, I got mine down at 2:12. Something that small made a difference of 6 seconds at the 2 minute mark. That is what made me think harder and watch harder. I started noticing that the Terran pros are not just dropping their mules randomly, they either drop them on the far patch and then are done with them, or they drop them on a near patch, but then take them off the minerals right before their last run. This is because the mule would die while carrying 30 minerals. Lets say that they do that 6 times before the game gets really intense. 30x6 = 180 minerals.
You wouldn't think that would make much of a difference, but then you add these things up. Worker pairing gets you minerals faster and then correct mule dropping/micro also gets you minerals faster and helps you not lose minerals. This can make the difference of having 3 or 6 marines against a protoss allin. If you ask me, I would rather have 6 marines. Stuff like this is crazy.
 
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I think it depends on your level a little bit. I used to get really obsessive about little things and I didn't end up improving because I neglected larger aspects of the game like mind games/tactics/solid micro and macro.
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What is considered a small detail is judged relatively, there are infact many cases in which the benefit of having just 6 more marines than your opponent is not of significant importance. Much of this is due to the ability one has to build on their gains. A person who cannot maintain constant production would gain little from being able to manage early game to such a degree because they would soon lose the advantage it gave them. To those that can macro consistantly throughout the game even while things are happening, 6 more marines is extremely significant. Often for noobs that observe these minor details, they tend to focus a great deal on them because they can be some of the most immediately apparent differences, I consider this to be misleading. The progression of improvement one could most benefit from begins at what improvements they can make that are most significant right now. Details like that can wait until they become more significant(they become more significant because you already have the earlier significant details down).
What you said about small things building up to become more significant is true, but it works the other way around as well in regards to how significant they'll remain given how you build (or don't build) on it.
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On March 16 2015 04:47 demonym wrote:
What is considered a small detail is judged relatively, there are infact many cases in which the benefit of having just 6 more marines than your opponent is not of significant importance. Much of this is due to the ability one has to build on their gains. A person who cannot maintain constant production would gain little from being able to manage early game to such a degree because they would soon lose the advantage it gave them. To those that can macro consistantly throughout the game even while things are happening, 6 more marines is extremely significant. Often for noobs that observe these minor details, they tend to focus a great deal on them because they can be some of the most immediately apparent differences, I consider this to be misleading. The progression of improvement one could most benefit from begins at what improvements they can make that are most significant right now. Details like that can wait until they become more significant(they become more significant because you already have the earlier significant details down).
What you said about small things building up to become more significant is true, but it works the other way around as well in regards to how significant they'll remain given how you build (or don't build) on it.
well like i said in the title, this is for the "mastery" of a skill. There are many top tier players in the starcraft community, but for some reason, the kespa players or other very good koreans seem to beat them by having slightly better macro, or having those slight edges and being able to take advantage of them. This does not apply to the low league people, because like you said, they will lose out on other things. You make a very strong point though.
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On March 16 2015 04:44 puppykiller wrote:
I think it depends on your level a little bit. I used to get really obsessive about little things and I didn't end up improving because I neglected larger aspects of the game like mind games/tactics/solid micro and macro.
Of course it depends on the level you are at. A gold league player doesn't need to worry about worker pairing, he needs to learn how to make workers constantly and keep his money low and drop mules in general. This is for the mastery of a skill (starcraft in this example). There is a reason that some Koreans outplay foreigners alot. There are many small things they do to get edges that they then take advantage of. This only applies to the very top tier players or people for any skill.
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On March 16 2015 04:55 TheAdultDiaper wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 04:47 demonym wrote:
What is considered a small detail is judged relatively, there are infact many cases in which the benefit of having just 6 more marines than your opponent is not of significant importance. Much of this is due to the ability one has to build on their gains. A person who cannot maintain constant production would gain little from being able to manage early game to such a degree because they would soon lose the advantage it gave them. To those that can macro consistantly throughout the game even while things are happening, 6 more marines is extremely significant. Often for noobs that observe these minor details, they tend to focus a great deal on them because they can be some of the most immediately apparent differences, I consider this to be misleading. The progression of improvement one could most benefit from begins at what improvements they can make that are most significant right now. Details like that can wait until they become more significant(they become more significant because you already have the earlier significant details down).
What you said about small things building up to become more significant is true, but it works the other way around as well in regards to how significant they'll remain given how you build (or don't build) on it. well like i said in the title, this is for the "mastery" of a skill. There are many top tier players in the starcraft community, but for some reason, the kespa players or other very good koreans seem to beat them by having slightly better macro, or having those slight edges and being able to take advantage of them. This does not apply to the low league people, because like you said, they will lose out on other things. You make a very strong point though.
Perhaps it would be good if you elaborated more on what you mean by "mastery" of a skill, it seems you meant to speak of a different topic than the one I mentioned.
On March 16 2015 03:58 TheAdultDiaper wrote:
So, over the time that I have known my coach and friend, Mariuslol, he has given me lectures and info about mastery of a skill. When I made the post about the plateau yesterday, he reinforced the idea that most people while trying to master any skill are sitting on a plateau for most of the time.
Actually if you could elaborate on that part that'd be nice, I found it interesting but you didn't really explain much about it.
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Noticing fine details makes you capable, which means given enough time and effort you have the potential of becoming a great master. If someone didn't notice these things, they might notice later on in their time with the game, which would then prove them capable just as you are.
The point in 10,000 hours of anything (or even 1,000, or 100, or 10) is about what you've learned on a deep level, and what you've placed your focus on during those hours. How long it takes to get to 10,000 pseudo-hours is different from person to person and how you approach your practice. Definitely for things like starcraft, each micro-action should be taken as something to practice by itself, to get that action (or small series of actions, such as "I am spreading creep and I am notified of an attacker on my worker line. I will then move my workers to another base as quickly as possible") to become second-nature as quickly as possible.
The masters you speak of take advantage of every small thing they personally notice, but they are also capable of it due to their diligence in committing the information to deep consciousness.
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On March 16 2015 12:14 demonym wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 04:55 TheAdultDiaper wrote:On March 16 2015 04:47 demonym wrote:
What is considered a small detail is judged relatively, there are infact many cases in which the benefit of having just 6 more marines than your opponent is not of significant importance. Much of this is due to the ability one has to build on their gains. A person who cannot maintain constant production would gain little from being able to manage early game to such a degree because they would soon lose the advantage it gave them. To those that can macro consistantly throughout the game even while things are happening, 6 more marines is extremely significant. Often for noobs that observe these minor details, they tend to focus a great deal on them because they can be some of the most immediately apparent differences, I consider this to be misleading. The progression of improvement one could most benefit from begins at what improvements they can make that are most significant right now. Details like that can wait until they become more significant(they become more significant because you already have the earlier significant details down).
What you said about small things building up to become more significant is true, but it works the other way around as well in regards to how significant they'll remain given how you build (or don't build) on it. well like i said in the title, this is for the "mastery" of a skill. There are many top tier players in the starcraft community, but for some reason, the kespa players or other very good koreans seem to beat them by having slightly better macro, or having those slight edges and being able to take advantage of them. This does not apply to the low league people, because like you said, they will lose out on other things. You make a very strong point though. Perhaps it would be good if you elaborated more on what you mean by "mastery" of a skill, it seems you meant to speak of a different topic than the one I mentioned. Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 03:58 TheAdultDiaper wrote:
So, over the time that I have known my coach and friend, Mariuslol, he has given me lectures and info about mastery of a skill. When I made the post about the plateau yesterday, he reinforced the idea that most people while trying to master any skill are sitting on a plateau for most of the time. Actually if you could elaborate on that part that'd be nice, I found it interesting but you didn't really explain much about it.
Fair enough, yeah sorry. I should think these posts out more than I currently do.
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On March 16 2015 12:22 hp.Shell wrote:
Noticing fine details makes you capable, which means given enough time and effort you have the potential of becoming a great master. If someone didn't notice these things, they might notice later on in their time with the game, which would then prove them capable just as you are.
The point in 10,000 hours of anything (or even 1,000, or 100, or 10) is about what you've learned on a deep level, and what you've placed your focus on during those hours. How long it takes to get to 10,000 pseudo-hours is different from person to person and how you approach your practice. Definitely for things like starcraft, each micro-action should be taken as something to practice by itself, to get that action (or small series of actions, such as "I am spreading creep and I am notified of an attacker on my worker line. I will then move my workers to another base as quickly as possible") to become second-nature as quickly as possible.
The masters you speak of take advantage of every small thing they personally notice, but they are also capable of it due to their diligence in committing the information to deep consciousness.
Yeah, I think when I got to the point of looking for the small things that they do, a whole new world appeared in front of me. It suddenly got alot more fun to watch starcraft because I could now understand how much skill and effort goes into each game.
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On March 16 2015 12:32 TheAdultDiaper wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 12:22 hp.Shell wrote:
Noticing fine details makes you capable, which means given enough time and effort you have the potential of becoming a great master. If someone didn't notice these things, they might notice later on in their time with the game, which would then prove them capable just as you are.
The point in 10,000 hours of anything (or even 1,000, or 100, or 10) is about what you've learned on a deep level, and what you've placed your focus on during those hours. How long it takes to get to 10,000 pseudo-hours is different from person to person and how you approach your practice. Definitely for things like starcraft, each micro-action should be taken as something to practice by itself, to get that action (or small series of actions, such as "I am spreading creep and I am notified of an attacker on my worker line. I will then move my workers to another base as quickly as possible") to become second-nature as quickly as possible.
The masters you speak of take advantage of every small thing they personally notice, but they are also capable of it due to their diligence in committing the information to deep consciousness. Yeah, I think when I got to the point of looking for the small things that they do, a whole new world appeared in front of me. It suddenly got alot more fun to watch starcraft because I could now understand how much skill and effort goes into each game.
The more I played BW the more I enjoyed watching pro matches. I could actually understand timings and how amazing some strategies are, like reaver contains in PvZ. 
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On March 16 2015 15:17 hp.Shell wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 12:32 TheAdultDiaper wrote:On March 16 2015 12:22 hp.Shell wrote:
Noticing fine details makes you capable, which means given enough time and effort you have the potential of becoming a great master. If someone didn't notice these things, they might notice later on in their time with the game, which would then prove them capable just as you are.
The point in 10,000 hours of anything (or even 1,000, or 100, or 10) is about what you've learned on a deep level, and what you've placed your focus on during those hours. How long it takes to get to 10,000 pseudo-hours is different from person to person and how you approach your practice. Definitely for things like starcraft, each micro-action should be taken as something to practice by itself, to get that action (or small series of actions, such as "I am spreading creep and I am notified of an attacker on my worker line. I will then move my workers to another base as quickly as possible") to become second-nature as quickly as possible.
The masters you speak of take advantage of every small thing they personally notice, but they are also capable of it due to their diligence in committing the information to deep consciousness. Yeah, I think when I got to the point of looking for the small things that they do, a whole new world appeared in front of me. It suddenly got alot more fun to watch starcraft because I could now understand how much skill and effort goes into each game. The more I played BW the more I enjoyed watching pro matches. I could actually understand timings and how amazing some strategies are, like reaver contains in PvZ.
We are on the exact same page. When i showed BW to a friend, he was like "what is this weird game with shitty graphics?"
He was sitting there not understanding the art that was in front of him. I guess I kind of know what its like when I'm sitting looking at a painting and not getting anything out of it while people around me are shitting themselves.
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EPT
