Long story short, its impossible to support in ELO hell. You have to pick the FOTM or some strong independent core like Slark and win games on your back.
Dota MMR Woes / Past to current issues - Page 2
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xXxUnseenxXx
United States230 Posts
Long story short, its impossible to support in ELO hell. You have to pick the FOTM or some strong independent core like Slark and win games on your back. | ||
ChunderBoy
3242 Posts
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SpiritoftheTunA
United States20903 Posts
On March 06 2015 09:18 xXxUnseenxXx wrote: Im just so frustrated.... I buy wards, deward, gank mid 3 times, get levels, rotate into lanes with tps that need help - aka turn around and get kills for them. I say all this to say, I then lose the game - Void first item buys MKB then purposely chronos team and runs away and lets us die. Razor (who i ganked three times for) gets killed by a rotating lion once and somehow does not have the items the troll has at the mid game. He got killed by a rotation after I gave perfect vision of the lion, pinged 5 times, and told him lion was coming mid and I would not be able to get there in time. Long story short, its impossible to support in ELO hell. You have to pick the FOTM or some strong independent core like Slark and win games on your back. FFGenerations did a pretty indepth analysis of your play and you don't even acknowledge it... sounds to me like you just want to vent more than you're actually looking to improve, and there's a thread for that here http://www.liquiddota.com/forum/the-tavern/454149-dota-2-qq-thread?page=last | ||
FFGenerations
7088 Posts
as a 3k support you can probably achieve 60%+ playing the same hero a lot and a really good player (ie not you) could probably achieve 70%. these aren't bad winrates so really there is nothing to complain about apart from problems with your own gameplay | ||
SpiritoftheTunA
United States20903 Posts
i think support is more of a crapshoot the lower down you go in MMR because of higher core decisionmaking variability; it seems to me that the ability to lead the team without pissing them off around objectives and favorable fights is just as important, if not more important, than doing all the mechanical stuff properly | ||
Alur
Denmark3900 Posts
On March 05 2015 05:38 Sassback wrote: Dam! FFGenerations giving a health dose of reality. P.S. I would love you to do this for one of my replays So I picked this match: http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1294676749, since the game is fairly even for the first 40 minutes, which gives us a large timeframe where improvements would have mattered. Preface: Every single radiant player could've won the match for his team by playing better individually, but even though your teammates mistakes matter for the outcome, I'll be ignoring them since they're irrelevant to our individual improvement. For the most part I'll be ignoring your execution in fights, unless I have something interesting to say. I'll also soften the blow by saying that your QoP is quite decent overall, your skill and item builds were solid, and you farmed at a reasonable pace. 0-20 minutes + Show Spoiler + 0:00 If you don't try to block the wave, you should be the one taking the bounty rune. The gold and xp has a bigger impact for the 1v1 matchup mid, than for the safelaner (especially this game because there was a defensive trilane, so bounty doesn't do much for the slark) 0:11 You let the wave pass by you without blocking, this makes it so the equilibrium favors storm heavily when the waves clash, and by the second wave the lane is pushed into your tower, making it difficult for you to lasthit. 3:40 You should scream + autoattack the wave so that it's dead by 3:50 and you can go for rune. This forces your opponent to choose between a) giving up on rune or b) giving up on an entire wave. Not doing so also makes you lose out on atleast 2 lasthits here, since you have to leave the wave before it's dead + storm has an easier time farming since the wave doesn't go into his tower. 3:46 At this point you have enough gold to buy boots + a tp (I like to carry a tp at all times as soon as I have the most basic needed necessities, like boots and bottle), anytime you have enough money for a significant item you should buy it as soon as you can. You buy your boots at 8:15(!), more than 4 minutes later than you could have gotten them. 5:00 You skill scream at 6, while it is arguably okay in some cases, you definitely want to get ult most of the time. 1 more level in scream adds 60 magic dmg, 1 level in ulti gives you 290 pure dmg. A lot of times (certainly in this game),you can just harass a little with dagger + right click, bottle up so you have mana for blink scream ulti, and you can easily get a solo kill on your mid opponent. 5:30 You missed 3 lasthits on an single uncontested wave when you have 74 right click dmg, this shouldn't happen. 5:45 Once again, you should start thinking about the upcoming rune and autoattack + scream the wave. Not doing this lost you 2 creeps, and would've lost you the entire wave if storm would have denied creeps from 50% hp. 6:30 Once again you skill scream over ulti, I disagree, but I guess it's a matter of opinion. 6:45 You have 1500gold, that's full treads or atleast boots+wand+tp's/smoke/detection, alarm bells should be going off, the difference between having no boots at all and having treads on QoP is huge (expecially with a bottle). My inner starcraft player is like: "Don't forget to macro!". 7:00 If you're far away from you laning opponent and not lasthitting while bottling, you might aswell drop stat items for max efficiency, and when it's only 1 (null talis) it's not too much effort. 7:20 No reason to scream the wave here, if you hadn't screamed here the wave wouldn't end up under storms tower + you would have had more mana, making your upcoming kill attempt much more likely to succeed. 7:34 You would've died here even if the dazzle hadn't come, towerdiving a storm is very dangerous, you have to be able to instakill him for it to work. Note that you had 1950 gold when you died, if you had bought int treads and a stick you might have killed him and lived. 8:15 You stand in base for 15 seconds. Since you spawn with full health after dying, your aim should be to grab items and tp/start running instantly. You also have 700+ gold left and an open inventory slot, you should buy a component for your next item, dust/sentries for weaver or even smoke to for bypassing wards for a gank on weaver (who almost dies to you scream and ulti alone at this point). 8:34 Right as you land dazzle and storm are going on pudge, this is a perfect opportunity to blink and land a double scream + ult, doing so would be a sure kill on dazzle, and since both you and pudge are full health there's little risk involved. However, if you didn't go here due to suspecting LC might be with them, then that's a valid reason not to commit, since shes missing and you don't know what items she has. 9:20 You're standing on the other side of the river and get jumped by LC with blink, anytime you're playing vs. a jungle who get's blink (axe, bat, lc) you need to be cautious of this around 9+ minutes. It can be a hard thing to keep in mind, but it's worth mentioning. 10:05 When going back to heal you want to waste as little time as possible, use your blink every time it's ready. 10:15 You buy a quarterstaff, which tells me you're gonna forego treads. I disagree with this since treads are great on QoP, since she actually right clicks a decent amount + tread switching is strong on her with bottle. But since you're playing vs. weaver and storm rushing Orchid is not unreasonable, once again, matter of opinion. 10:30 I'm confident you can tell what your mistakes are this fight yourself, the most significant one being that you should've blinked away from storm instead of trading (rather safe than sorry), and in such tight trades be sure to bottle in between hits. 12:45 If possible, don't use invis rune close to common ward spots. 13:45 You're running around, you should have your mind set on the 14 min rune, nuke down the next wave so you can take the rune as it spawns. 15:15 Some dead time in base. Try to decide on where you're gonna go while you're still dead to be efficient with your time. You forgot to buy another tp. 15:47 Don't go uphill by yourself with 4 enemies missing while having little vision of the map. Either make your team come with you (ideally with a smoke) or just go farm. Your teammates made a mistake by trying to help you, but try to tell them they should back/not help you when you realize how bad the situation is. 17:10 At this stage of the game, you should spam scream on creep waves to farm faster. 17:44 All 5 enemies are missing, and you're just the two of you quite far up. This is where you blink away and use the Get Back chat wheel command a couple of times. 18:48 Sell your null talisman or keep the second oblivion on courier to make room for a tp. 19:30 The map is dark and all 5 are missing. Slark should've known this, but if you notice people off by themselves in these situations don't be afraid to >Get Back! a couple of times. 19:58 Always kill the small creeps first, allowing the Summoner to summon skeletons for extra gold. 20:00 Going into the lane with LC and Storm missing is greedy. Just aquire a tp and farm your own side of the map when it's safer. 20+ + Show Spoiler + 21:27 Always check inventories of heroes that are prone to build linkens, you missed out on a storm kill here by going for weaver. 22:24 Instead of running to the right and then down, simply go to the edge and blink straight into the river, always think about how to move around in an efficient and safe manner. 22:46 When blinking to camps that can spawn golems, dont scream untill you see the camp type. 23:26 Here you can see two opponents going for slark bot on the minimap, in situations like these try to tp into the trees by the tower so they don't see you. This would allow you to get a really good jump on them as they go for slark. 29:20 Keep your blink on cooldown when moving around the map. 31:00 (This is unrelated to the fight that happens, but is about the general mindset you should have from this point onwards) You now have your core items, aswell as level 3 ulti, considering the superior lategame of the enemy team, farming is going to be less effective for you. So to take advantage of the point in the game where you have the biggest impact, try to organize smokes to gank or take rosh, and follow that up by taking what objectives you can. 32:30 The most efficient way of farming waves is to make sure your scream hit's all five creeps, one way to do this without missing CS is to hit the creeps that arent taking damage from your wave untill they're in scream kill range, and then cleaning up the entire wave in a single scream. The goal is to spend as little time as possible on each wave. 33:24 You're strong enough now that you should just facetank creeps to kill them faster. Kiting isn't needed anymore. 35:05 Try to Orchid storm asap whenever he jumps you. Wouldn't have made a difference if he bkb's quickly, but it's worth noting still. 37:57 A teamfight starts bot close to your base, it takes you 10 seconds to start tping. You should keep a close eye on the minimap in these situations, so that you can join fight asap when needed. You can even just attackmove to farm, and put your camera on the pre-fight staredown so you can tp the second shit goes down. Joining at the right time is worth missing a few lasthits. 41:30 In this fight you blink away from favorable situations where your team is outnumbering the enemy, twice. Especially the first one is costly since it's an easy pickoff on the lc. After that your teammates ulties and slarks bkb have been spent, at which point you should have tried disengaging, but a 5v5 breaks out which ends badly. 44:44 Here you should've saved ulti by not using it on LC, then tried to dagger weaver to pop linkens, then orchid + ult him. Alternatively, use ulti on LC at the start, so you can get it over with faster and leave. 47:10 In lategame scenarios where your team is behind, a good way of coming back is by smoking as 5. If you buy the smoke, tell them in chat and do a bunch of pinging people tend to listen. By forcing your team to group up, your players won't be getting picked off which can easily lose you the game. This is especially true vs. lineups that are good at getting pickoffs. 48:34 This would be a great time to try such a smoke gank. To be safe just do it from inside your base, where dire probably don't have vision. From this point onwards the only way you win without smoke is by outplaying dire in teamfights, which is hard considering your deficit. Hope you can use this to make some improvements to your play. | ||
Sassback
United States718 Posts
I usually forgo treads if i rush orchid, usually because 1.Orchid is only super effective before the cores get there own items, so the earlier i get it, the sooner i can solo carries 2. As you saw, I am not the most efficient farmer and skipping treads usually gets my orchid out 2-5min faster 3. I like BoT's, especially because QoP is a great split pusher and it really increases my cs, and being able to tp to creep waves and keep the lanes pushed is a pretty big positive. Also, being able to tp into fights that aren't next to a tower is a huge boon, especially in my lower skill bracket where teamfights can happen without warning, and with very little communication. And, on a final note, I will really try to utilize late game smokes. It's something that doesn't even enter my consciousness when I'm not playing supports and it's past 20 min. | ||
FFGenerations
7088 Posts
22:46 When blinking to camps that can spawn golems, dont scream untill you see the camp type. ahaha fuck this XD 1) fight tactics are not that hard to learn since it is really just a mindset of heightened awareness and understanding of player movements and the consequences of these . then practicing your mechanics to be able to perform your own movements. if you watch a few of your replays you will be able to see how your own tactical decisions differ from what you would have done with perfect awareness (both with and without fog of war) i watched like 10 of my replays and every time i was like "Holy shit, i thought i was playing so well, but if i had more heightened sense i would have known that i could have moved here or that i shouldn't have moved there" now when i play i feel like i am more able to determine where an opponent is going to be, for instance. i actively look for simple clues like "he is moving this way so in a few seconds time i know he will almost certainly be there so i know i should do this and that when i do it he will probably be surprised". this is just from watching some replays and seeing how MY lines of thought differ from the reality of the situations it sounds like your weakness also lies in farming. to fix this you can watch 1 game of the hero you're playing streamed by a 5k+ player. you will see farming techniques like for qop killing a creepwave you attack 2nd creep until 1st creep is half hp from dying to creeps then scream then attack range creep then finish off the 4th creep (something like this). treads are fucking incredible on qop imo. i would get them in almost all circumstance. your rightclick for harrassment and for lasthitting/clearing goes through the roof with them. treadswitching for emergency mana or hp is invaluable. i used to think treads were a bit lacklustre but when i started paying more attention i realised how damn powerful they are (increase your base damage by like 15%? and attack speed by god-knows-what-% just a few minutes into the game). lv 6 (i think) qop with treads = 1.01 attacks per second without treads = 1.25 attacks per second with treads = 73.5 dmg without treads = 65.5 dmg with treads switching = 454+161+152 = 767hp without thread switching = 615hp = treads hero has 19.2% increase in speed = treads hero has 10.9% increase in dmg = tread switching hero has 19.8% increase in hp im shit at math and dont know if this proves anything lol but if u said to me "my lv 6 hero qop is basically 20% faster than yours and does 10% more damage per attack and can switch to a +20% gain in hp at any time and also has basically extra mana enough to blink 2 more times" i would be jelly bots are one of the worst items i can think of. 2000 gold to give the most mobile hero in dota some more mobility? you literally have a 13000 range blink every 4 seconds. your focus on qop should be to outcarry all other players in the game. when i play qop i go treads, orchid, bkb, satanic -> game is over because i outfarmed everyone else by a mile. i never think "oh a pair of bots will help me around now a hell of a lot more than , say, starting my bkb/scythe/satanic". come endgame the question i ask myself is "do i want buyback more than i need bots" and the answer is usually clear either way i always have fuckall luck with early/midgame smokes (you smoke up and people walk immediately in opposite directions or go attack the nearest creep) but they can be brilliant for "breaking highground" (or taking tier 2s), just back off and smoke and catch someone out then you won the game | ||
GtC
United States546 Posts
This is my dotabuff. http://www.dotabuff.com/players/109715576 I was hoping you could look at this game in particular though. It's probably easy to explain why we lost (got outcarried - medusa lol) but I obviously didn't play optimally, especially since I'm still learning storm and was wondering if I could have some expert analysis. http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1295372771 | ||
ArcticRaven
France1406 Posts
I mostly play mid but when I can't I use this strat. 80% winrate with Venge, not that it says too much to be honest, hero's strong at the moment. | ||
Giga
United Kingdom114 Posts
Im just so frustrated.... I buy wards, deward, gank mid 3 times, get levels, rotate into lanes with tps that need help - aka turn around and get kills for them. I say all this to say, I then lose the game - Void first item buys MKB then purposely chronos team and runs away and lets us die. Razor (who i ganked three times for) gets killed by a rotating lion once and somehow does not have the items the troll has at the mid game. He got killed by a rotation after I gave perfect vision of the lion, pinged 5 times, and told him lion was coming mid and I would not be able to get there in time. Saying you do all this shit and still lose is the worst trap you could put yourself in. It's probably the cause of so many people believing in ELO hell. If you want to get out of the shit your in, you don't say what you did, because ultimately it was shit/wasn't good enough to get out of whatever bracket your in. You look at what instead you could do for improvement in future games. Worrying about a shit teammate is pointless because chances are in low mmr you'll never see them again. If you also feel like you consistently get bad teammates, its also a possiblity that you should consider; that you're the one playing bad and you need to fix an aspect of your play. However this is all baseless assumption from the posts I've read, so don't take it personally, well you probably should, but just use it constructively - you can cry after a game about how you had the worst teammates ever as long as you identify what you could of atleast done better. For instance I've had games where I dominate the offlane and my mid feeds super hard. I am obviously annoyed, but after thinking about it realised it would of been much more beneficial to give my mid the safe lane and to go with a support to mid and take over midlane instead. Shit like this. | ||
Snerd
United States125 Posts
On March 06 2015 09:18 xXxUnseenxXx wrote: Im just so frustrated.... I buy wards, deward, gank mid 3 times, get levels, rotate into lanes with tps that need help - aka turn around and get kills for them. I say all this to say, I then lose the game - Void first item buys MKB then purposely chronos team and runs away and lets us die. Razor (who i ganked three times for) gets killed by a rotating lion once and somehow does not have the items the troll has at the mid game. He got killed by a rotation after I gave perfect vision of the lion, pinged 5 times, and told him lion was coming mid and I would not be able to get there in time. Long story short, its impossible to support in ELO hell. You have to pick the FOTM or some strong independent core like Slark and win games on your back. You're confusing the things you said above with something a good support player would do, when in reality those are things that any 3k support has mastered. Supporting is much more than just knowing where to put wards and ganking; so if the things you listed are examples of your exemplary support play, then your mmr is exactly where it should be. | ||
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