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On January 21 2015 14:50 Wertheron wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2015 04:36 MrBitter wrote:On January 21 2015 04:29 feardragon wrote:On January 21 2015 04:01 MrBitter wrote:
Honestly, as someone who works on the business side of eSports, I do not think investing in Smash 4 makes sense.
The game is too similar to Brawl. Low skill ceiling, little/no advanced tech, slow/floaty characters, super forgiving gameplay...
The game will have no longevity. It's a 2 year title at best.
A downloadable HD re-release of Melee would cement that game a a core esport title for years to come. It would solve all the accessibility problems you just mentioned.
I think the best thing Smash 4 will do for eSports is make more casuals aware of the melee scene. While I get the sentiment behind this, the game just barely came out. Players thought Starcraft 2 was a shallow game within 3-5 months of it coming out and that it was "figured out" fast because of all the existing players from bw working on it. Melee was a LOT slower years ago because people didn't know about L-Canceling, etc. Heck, there were even things people DID know about but didn't think were useful for years...like wavedashing. The point being, I think it's far too early to make huge jugements about the game. Most of what made Melee what it is today are the intricacies that were discovered over time, not the initial interpertation of players. Brawl gets a lot of hate but if a game has a low skill ceiling, then there should be a large number of players eventually hitting that skill ceiling and it should be pretty "rng" on who ends up winning right? But even in Brawl, there are consistent victors and winners at the top level. The game is still developing, even with Smash 4 out and very few people left playing it intensely. I can understand if you say there's a perception that the skill ceiling is low so there's going to be less interest in the game. But I think history has shown that in general we're all pretty bad judges of what games have a lot of depth once you pass a certain level of complexity in the game. edit: quoted the wrong quote I don't disagree with you in principal, but to come back to the analogy of SC2 and BW, let's ask ourselves this: Which scene is growing right now? Broodwar is back on TV in Korea for the first time in years. There's a $40k tournament on going right now. New players, teams and leagues are appearing as we speak. There's a lot to be said for these timeless titles. Smash. BW. CS is another great example. It took a looong time for 1.6 to be dethroned. It outlived many new generations, including all of source. It wasn't until Valve finally caved and said "fine, let's talk to the pros and make the game they want" that CS:GO started gaining traction as an esport. SC2 is not dead, and some of us are still here, thank you.
Hell ya man. i'll be watching sc2 until the day there's not a single pro left
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On January 21 2015 14:51 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2015 14:50 Wertheron wrote:On January 21 2015 04:36 MrBitter wrote:On January 21 2015 04:29 feardragon wrote:On January 21 2015 04:01 MrBitter wrote:
Honestly, as someone who works on the business side of eSports, I do not think investing in Smash 4 makes sense.
The game is too similar to Brawl. Low skill ceiling, little/no advanced tech, slow/floaty characters, super forgiving gameplay...
The game will have no longevity. It's a 2 year title at best.
A downloadable HD re-release of Melee would cement that game a a core esport title for years to come. It would solve all the accessibility problems you just mentioned.
I think the best thing Smash 4 will do for eSports is make more casuals aware of the melee scene. While I get the sentiment behind this, the game just barely came out. Players thought Starcraft 2 was a shallow game within 3-5 months of it coming out and that it was "figured out" fast because of all the existing players from bw working on it. Melee was a LOT slower years ago because people didn't know about L-Canceling, etc. Heck, there were even things people DID know about but didn't think were useful for years...like wavedashing. The point being, I think it's far too early to make huge jugements about the game. Most of what made Melee what it is today are the intricacies that were discovered over time, not the initial interpertation of players. Brawl gets a lot of hate but if a game has a low skill ceiling, then there should be a large number of players eventually hitting that skill ceiling and it should be pretty "rng" on who ends up winning right? But even in Brawl, there are consistent victors and winners at the top level. The game is still developing, even with Smash 4 out and very few people left playing it intensely. I can understand if you say there's a perception that the skill ceiling is low so there's going to be less interest in the game. But I think history has shown that in general we're all pretty bad judges of what games have a lot of depth once you pass a certain level of complexity in the game. edit: quoted the wrong quote I don't disagree with you in principal, but to come back to the analogy of SC2 and BW, let's ask ourselves this: Which scene is growing right now? Broodwar is back on TV in Korea for the first time in years. There's a $40k tournament on going right now. New players, teams and leagues are appearing as we speak. There's a lot to be said for these timeless titles. Smash. BW. CS is another great example. It took a looong time for 1.6 to be dethroned. It outlived many new generations, including all of source. It wasn't until Valve finally caved and said "fine, let's talk to the pros and make the game they want" that CS:GO started gaining traction as an esport. SC2 is not dead, and some of us are still here, thank you. Hell ya man. i'll be watching sc2 until the day there's not a single pro left
I agree with you guys. SC2 is still here, and to respond to MrBitter, I'd say that the korean scene (which is the one he is referring to) is also slowly coming back to life. We had a good year a PL/GSL last year, and a great year of PL/NSSL/GSL ahead of us !
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what mr.bitter talks is longevity.
like bw is still going in korea FIFTEEN years after its release. Asian gamers in general have a sense of "loyalty" to the games they love, in SEA and China you still have many many players playing cs1.6/dota1/wc3 even till today.
SC2 is mostly popular in the foreign scene, where the trend of modern gamers is to quickly discard old games in favor of new hype titles. Hence i dont see LotV lasting 15 years after its release.
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On January 21 2015 04:01 MrBitter wrote:
Honestly, as someone who works on the business side of eSports, I do not think investing in Smash 4 makes sense.
The game is too similar to Brawl. Low skill ceiling, little/no advanced tech, slow/floaty characters, super forgiving gameplay...
The game will have no longevity. It's a 2 year title at best.
A downloadable HD re-release of Melee would cement that game a a core esport title for years to come. It would solve all the accessibility problems you just mentioned.
I think the best thing Smash 4 will do for eSports is make more casuals aware of the melee scene.
Esports is not Nintendo's business. They cater to a completely different audience. I agree that Melee is probably a fun game to watch, but the number of viewers and players pale in comparison to Dota 2, LoL, CSGO and probably even SC2.
The fact that you have to play it on a console that is extremely hard to find nowadays doesn't help.
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On January 22 2015 00:50 maartendq wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2015 04:01 MrBitter wrote:
Honestly, as someone who works on the business side of eSports, I do not think investing in Smash 4 makes sense.
The game is too similar to Brawl. Low skill ceiling, little/no advanced tech, slow/floaty characters, super forgiving gameplay...
The game will have no longevity. It's a 2 year title at best.
A downloadable HD re-release of Melee would cement that game a a core esport title for years to come. It would solve all the accessibility problems you just mentioned.
I think the best thing Smash 4 will do for eSports is make more casuals aware of the melee scene. Esports is not Nintendo's business. They cater to a completely different audience. I agree that Melee is probably a fun game to watch, but the number of viewers and players pale in comparison to Dota 2, LoL, CSGO and probably even SC2. The fact that you have to play it on a console that is extremely hard to find nowadays doesn't help.
Melee is actually about in line with Sc2 right now, though there are less tournaments. And it's growing, not shrinking like starcraft. I'm not saying it isn't difficult to get into, but it's not as if Gamecubes or Wii's are that hard to find and Melee was the best selling game of all time on the GC so it's pretty common too. CRTs maybe if you don't have a thrift shop near you.
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On January 20 2015 15:06 Footler wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2015 12:17 Joedaddy wrote:
Truth!
I'm not even worried about SC2 anymore~ I've accepted it for what it is: a dying game. I'm not basing that on stream views, tournament's unique viewership, etc. Its the fact that we have new NA teams recruiting the same tired old "talent" almost 5 years after its release. You gotta have new blood to keep it going. I'm just sad that SC2 didn't produce it. I wouldn't count SC2 out just yet. It seems to be doing better in Korea, it's just the international scene that doesn't see a lot of top tier talent. With the changes to WCS this year we might see a more thriving international scene. Remember that one DreamHack with only European players? It was super hype despite the lack of Korean talent. I think we can expect something similar this year. LotV is also on the horizon and could be a huge boon to the community as well. But MrBitter and Carmac are on point. You really need fresh blood. I started watching Melee during Evo 2013 but didn't actually ever play it until Summer 2014 and it was a blast. Now, I have a GC controller and adapter so I can play Melee/PM on PC and also Smash 4 on 3DS. Melee really is an amazing game to both play and watch.
SC2's usage time at PC bangs has been going lower and lower every month. It's actually fallen out of the top 20 rankings now. It seems to be doing worse in Korea if anything, the playerbase is shrinking.
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On January 22 2015 00:54 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2015 00:50 maartendq wrote:On January 21 2015 04:01 MrBitter wrote:
Honestly, as someone who works on the business side of eSports, I do not think investing in Smash 4 makes sense.
The game is too similar to Brawl. Low skill ceiling, little/no advanced tech, slow/floaty characters, super forgiving gameplay...
The game will have no longevity. It's a 2 year title at best.
A downloadable HD re-release of Melee would cement that game a a core esport title for years to come. It would solve all the accessibility problems you just mentioned.
I think the best thing Smash 4 will do for eSports is make more casuals aware of the melee scene. Esports is not Nintendo's business. They cater to a completely different audience. I agree that Melee is probably a fun game to watch, but the number of viewers and players pale in comparison to Dota 2, LoL, CSGO and probably even SC2. The fact that you have to play it on a console that is extremely hard to find nowadays doesn't help. Melee is actually about in line with Sc2 right now, though there are less tournaments. And it's growing, not shrinking like starcraft. I'm not saying it isn't difficult to get into, but it's not as if Gamecubes or Wii's are that hard to find and Melee was the best selling game of all time on the GC so it's pretty common too. CRTs maybe if you don't have a thrift shop near you.
Oh, you can play GC games on Wii. Didn't know that, my bad.
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On January 22 2015 00:50 maartendq wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2015 04:01 MrBitter wrote:
Honestly, as someone who works on the business side of eSports, I do not think investing in Smash 4 makes sense.
The game is too similar to Brawl. Low skill ceiling, little/no advanced tech, slow/floaty characters, super forgiving gameplay...
The game will have no longevity. It's a 2 year title at best.
A downloadable HD re-release of Melee would cement that game a a core esport title for years to come. It would solve all the accessibility problems you just mentioned.
I think the best thing Smash 4 will do for eSports is make more casuals aware of the melee scene. Esports is not Nintendo's business. They cater to a completely different audience. I agree that Melee is probably a fun game to watch, but the number of viewers and players pale in comparison to Dota 2, LoL, CSGO and probably even SC2. The fact that you have to play it on a console that is extremely hard to find nowadays doesn't help.
melees in a weird pocket hole where more people play it than watch it
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On January 22 2015 16:48 rabidch wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2015 00:50 maartendq wrote:On January 21 2015 04:01 MrBitter wrote:
Honestly, as someone who works on the business side of eSports, I do not think investing in Smash 4 makes sense.
The game is too similar to Brawl. Low skill ceiling, little/no advanced tech, slow/floaty characters, super forgiving gameplay...
The game will have no longevity. It's a 2 year title at best.
A downloadable HD re-release of Melee would cement that game a a core esport title for years to come. It would solve all the accessibility problems you just mentioned.
I think the best thing Smash 4 will do for eSports is make more casuals aware of the melee scene. Esports is not Nintendo's business. They cater to a completely different audience. I agree that Melee is probably a fun game to watch, but the number of viewers and players pale in comparison to Dota 2, LoL, CSGO and probably even SC2. The fact that you have to play it on a console that is extremely hard to find nowadays doesn't help. melees in a weird pocket hole where more people play it than watch it
As is normal for most games, watching esports is a relatively new phenomenon.
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On January 22 2015 17:44 -NegativeZero- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2015 16:48 rabidch wrote:On January 22 2015 00:50 maartendq wrote:On January 21 2015 04:01 MrBitter wrote:
Honestly, as someone who works on the business side of eSports, I do not think investing in Smash 4 makes sense.
The game is too similar to Brawl. Low skill ceiling, little/no advanced tech, slow/floaty characters, super forgiving gameplay...
The game will have no longevity. It's a 2 year title at best.
A downloadable HD re-release of Melee would cement that game a a core esport title for years to come. It would solve all the accessibility problems you just mentioned.
I think the best thing Smash 4 will do for eSports is make more casuals aware of the melee scene. Esports is not Nintendo's business. They cater to a completely different audience. I agree that Melee is probably a fun game to watch, but the number of viewers and players pale in comparison to Dota 2, LoL, CSGO and probably even SC2. The fact that you have to play it on a console that is extremely hard to find nowadays doesn't help. melees in a weird pocket hole where more people play it than watch it As is normal for most games, watching esports is a relatively new phenomenon.
i find that only true for fighting games, and even more so for console games which, as maartendq pointed out, melee is. the fighting game community seems to not be the type to regularly watch streams of their game but rather go out to events to play their game a bunch since thats how its traditionally always been run
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On January 20 2015 12:02 [SXG]Phantom wrote:5/5 pretty cool, i really like that melee players like smash that much, but honestly, in my opinion, they should switch to smash 4 already. I mean its not even a question of which one is ebtter, both are really close and simmilar, even if you think melee is better, but simply because smash 4 is newer it could gather even more attention, its strictly buissness 
gtfo
if people played melee for "business" the game would have died a decade ago. take that "grow esports" crap back to sc2 boards
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On January 20 2015 12:02 [SXG]Phantom wrote:5/5 pretty cool, i really like that melee players like smash that much, but honestly, in my opinion, they should switch to smash 4 already. I mean its not even a question of which one is ebtter, both are really close and simmilar, even if you think melee is better, but simply because smash 4 is newer it could gather even more attention, its strictly buissness
Literally bursting out in laughter
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United States10328 Posts
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On January 20 2015 05:37 alukarD wrote:
And Melee was designed for a Mario Party game type.
No. It was designed to be an accessible fighting game.
On January 20 2015 12:02 [SXG]Phantom wrote:5/5 pretty cool, i really like that melee players like smash that much, but honestly, in my opinion, they should switch to smash 4 already. I mean its not even a question of which one is ebtter, both are really close and simmilar, even if you think melee is better, but simply because smash 4 is newer it could gather even more attention, its strictly buissness
Yes, people are gonna stop playing the game that they love because of business.
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United States23455 Posts
On January 22 2015 00:50 maartendq wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2015 04:01 MrBitter wrote:
Honestly, as someone who works on the business side of eSports, I do not think investing in Smash 4 makes sense.
The game is too similar to Brawl. Low skill ceiling, little/no advanced tech, slow/floaty characters, super forgiving gameplay...
The game will have no longevity. It's a 2 year title at best.
A downloadable HD re-release of Melee would cement that game a a core esport title for years to come. It would solve all the accessibility problems you just mentioned.
I think the best thing Smash 4 will do for eSports is make more casuals aware of the melee scene. Esports is not Nintendo's business. They cater to a completely different audience. I agree that Melee is probably a fun game to watch, but the number of viewers and players pale in comparison to Dota 2, LoL, CSGO and probably even SC2. The fact that you have to play it on a console that is extremely hard to find nowadays doesn't help.
Melee's viewership is pretty good tbh. Paragon last weekend had 50k+ at times and it is roughly equivalent to like a DH for SC2
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Just a heads-up for anyone who enjoys Smash, we have a Smash forum that needs a bit more love. Rest assured, there's lots more Smash content coming from TL on the horizon -- heck, we just got a siiiiiick article written-up about Melee's CSL equivalent.
It's mostly Melee-focused (just like TL in general,) but, hell, Melee is fun to watch, and there're people like me that play exclusively other games 
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On January 23 2015 08:03 TMG26 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2015 05:37 alukarD wrote:
And Melee was designed for a Mario Party game type. No. It was designed to be an accessible fighting game. Show nested quote +On January 20 2015 12:02 [SXG]Phantom wrote:5/5 pretty cool, i really like that melee players like smash that much, but honestly, in my opinion, they should switch to smash 4 already. I mean its not even a question of which one is ebtter, both are really close and simmilar, even if you think melee is better, but simply because smash 4 is newer it could gather even more attention, its strictly buissness Yes, people are gonna stop playing the game that they love because of business.
That's pretty much exactly what happened with Brood War, at least for those players who want to make a living playing video games.
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On January 23 2015 16:32 maartendq wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2015 08:03 TMG26 wrote:On January 20 2015 05:37 alukarD wrote:
And Melee was designed for a Mario Party game type. No. It was designed to be an accessible fighting game. On January 20 2015 12:02 [SXG]Phantom wrote:5/5 pretty cool, i really like that melee players like smash that much, but honestly, in my opinion, they should switch to smash 4 already. I mean its not even a question of which one is ebtter, both are really close and simmilar, even if you think melee is better, but simply because smash 4 is newer it could gather even more attention, its strictly buissness Yes, people are gonna stop playing the game that they love because of business. That's pretty much exactly what happened with Brood War, at least for those players who want to make a living playing video games.
Your history is wrong. Non-Korean players never made a living playing BW. And while the BW scene took a hit when SC2 came out, it's really making a come back, with new leagues and teams gaining traction there.
edit: grammar
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I sometimes read smash articles because I loved the 64 version and the famous documentary, I did not expect at all those kind of "for the greater esports" comments here. Who in hell care of how big your community is? All that matters is that it's big enough for everyone to find interesting opponents without too much trouble.
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EPT
