EPTI went to a Smash tourney... - Page 2
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TelecoM
United States10768 Posts
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scDeluX
Canada1341 Posts
On January 20 2015 12:02 [SXG]Phantom wrote: 5/5 pretty cool, i really like that melee players like smash that much, but honestly, in my opinion, they should switch to smash 4 already. I mean its not even a question of which one is ebtter, both are really close and simmilar, even if you think melee is better, but simply because smash 4 is newer it could gather even more attention, its strictly buissness  On January 20 2015 12:02 [SXG]Phantom wrote: both are really close and simmilar No lol. Smash 4 is clearly not a game that is suited for esport and I doubt the hype will survive 1-2 years. Smash 4 at Paragon was boring at hell but the true test is gonna be at apex in 2 weeks. I hope that top 8 is all boring mirror diddy so they might patch him but even then. The game is too slow and there is like no possible real combo. Some char like diddy zss sheik and luigi are clearly way above the rest. | ||
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-Kaiser-
Canada932 Posts
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MTB
France26 Posts
Both can be played and enjoyed and what have you, but beyond being the same sort of game, they have nothing much in common. Also don't listen to the vocal majority that will hate on whatever game you choose to play. Play what you like, and just bask in the hype of the other games when you have a chance to. I don't like playing Smash4/Brawl but when my friends do in tournament, I'll sit back and enjoy the crowd and root for them. Nothing wrong with that. Melee players used to be defensive about Melee v Brawl because Brawl nearly killed the Melee scene. Smash 4 didn't make a dent, but still the same kind of debates about which game should be represented at this or that place led to flaming and unnecessary community wars. Numbers speak for themselves though. At Apex, which is the highest point of the year for Smash, bar EVO, Melee will have 1037 entrants while Smash 4 will have 831. Nintendo really fucked up by not seizing that opportunity to cater to the competitive fanbase with Smash4, even after missing out on it with Brawl as well. Also, to anyone who thinks Melee was made to be a party game, any deeper look at the game engine will make you feel otherwise. Things are too polished to it to be a "whatever happens, happens" kind of game. It's actually quite scary how polished it is. - Mahie, top French Melee player. | ||
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Footler
United States560 Posts
On January 20 2015 12:17 Joedaddy wrote: Truth! I'm not even worried about SC2 anymore~ I've accepted it for what it is: a dying game. I'm not basing that on stream views, tournament's unique viewership, etc. Its the fact that we have new NA teams recruiting the same tired old "talent" almost 5 years after its release. You gotta have new blood to keep it going. I'm just sad that SC2 didn't produce it. I wouldn't count SC2 out just yet. It seems to be doing better in Korea, it's just the international scene that doesn't see a lot of top tier talent. With the changes to WCS this year we might see a more thriving international scene. Remember that one DreamHack with only European players? It was super hype despite the lack of Korean talent. I think we can expect something similar this year. LotV is also on the horizon and could be a huge boon to the community as well. But MrBitter and Carmac are on point. You really need fresh blood. I started watching Melee during Evo 2013 but didn't actually ever play it until Summer 2014 and it was a blast. Now, I have a GC controller and adapter so I can play Melee/PM on PC and also Smash 4 on 3DS. Melee really is an amazing game to both play and watch. | ||
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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
On January 20 2015 12:21 iseefor wrote: i would be interested to hear what you think about the PM scene. SSBM is top dog but here in Sacramento i feel the Project M scene is bigger then the Melee. I think PM is great. It's the closest thing we've got to a sequel to melee. Unfortunately, until Nintendo decides to change their stance on the game, we'll never see it on big stages. Any organizer that wants to run Smash will want to run melee, and Nintendo's current stance seems to be "we'll shut you down if you also run PM". | ||
Hot_Bid
Braavos36401 Posts
when are we gonna play | ||
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BongChambers
Canada591 Posts
God damn I need to visit there some time. | ||
RaGe
Belgium9950 Posts
If Blizzard, with all their experience in esports, couldn't make a succesful, enjoyable sequel to SC:BW (let's face it, the actively watching SC community is smaller now than it was before SC2:Beta) then I'm not sure Nintendo could've made a succesful "Melee-like" sequel. And in the end, the Melee community seems to be profiting way more from Smash4's success than they're losing to it. I think people overestimate to what degree developper support is needed to make a succesful competitive game, especially now that e-sports in general is an established paradigm. I know Riot and Valve have made it work, but somehow I feel Nintendo would more likely join the Blizzard group. I'm personally trash at Melee, just attended my first decent tournament here in Belgium. But the game is so insanely fun to play, improvement is really rewarding and watching the high level games is amazing. To me the entire experience playing the game and around the game reminds me of what I've previously only gotten from Brood War, Quake Live and to a lesser degree CS1.6/CS:GO. It's fun to see the influx of SC players in to the Melee community. I don't know if it's because of TL's Smash team, but I'm pretty sure a lot of the old BW fans will stick around since the game in its entirety resembles Brood War a lot, albeit in a totally different genre/gameflow. Obligatory #TenMoreYears and random reddit quote + Show Spoiler + MeleeLaijin 4 points 12 hours ago I've always said it and it remains true. When you play Melee competitvely, you NEVER QUIT. This game HAS YOU ALL BY THE BALLS. You will again pick up a controller later on in your life. It will never leave your blood. You're trapped. This game is a drug. | ||
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BlueFlames
Germany1756 Posts
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Luolis
Finland7181 Posts
On January 20 2015 15:06 Footler wrote: I wouldn't count SC2 out just yet. It seems to be doing better in Korea, it's just the international scene that doesn't see a lot of top tier talent. With the changes to WCS this year we might see a more thriving international scene. Remember that one DreamHack with only European players? It was super hype despite the lack of Korean talent. I think we can expect something similar this year. LotV is also on the horizon and could be a huge boon to the community as well. But MrBitter and Carmac are on point. You really need fresh blood. I started watching Melee during Evo 2013 but didn't actually ever play it until Summer 2014 and it was a blast. Now, I have a GC controller and adapter so I can play Melee/PM on PC and also Smash 4 on 3DS. Melee really is an amazing game to both play and watch. Yea also taking to account only NA scene really has that problem, counting sc2 out is stupid as fuck. | ||
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Darkhorse
United States23455 Posts
You should come to Apex :D | ||
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[Phantom]
Mexico2170 Posts
So what i meant is that, yeah, maybe on meele theres l cancel and a bunch of other cool stuff, but the core game is not that different, so skill translate very well, and from an spectator point of view (and with this i mean not a super hardcore quasi-pro gamer) the game doesn't look much different. So, if instead of playing smash, just because is a little better or so they say, they played sm4sh, it could be very benefficial to the scene, first of all, nintendo would support them more, then, since the game just came out a lot of people would say "hey smash 4? thats cool i can check it out" instead of saying "meele? people still play that thing? it was cool but man, grow up". Theres also online, and altough it isn't great, its better than nothing, and in general it has just way more ways to get into it than meele. Like, if i want to play meele i need to get the game, get a gamecube/wii, get a CRT, and some controllers to play a 15 year old game? Maybe you can buy a PC adaptor, but thats not really the game itself For me, as a casual it would simply be better to just go and get a wii u, which then i could use to buy more cool games like zelda or through the e-shop. Just think about it, for someone to get into meele right now, you would have to like it a lot, or get into the scene because of a friend, whereas with sm4sh, getting into the scene would be way way easier, making the scene grow even more than what meele is achieving right now. Now don't get me wrong, even if im not a hardcore smash esport fan, i like it and im amazed at the fact that the scene is still somewhat healthy even with all these difficulties, but i think, purely as an e-sport buissness perspective, that the scene could grow much much much much more, if they went to sm4ash, even if it is a "worse game". | ||
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SetGuitarsToKill
Canada28396 Posts
On January 21 2015 03:54 [SXG]Phantom wrote: When i said meele and s4 are similar i meant it like, they have the same controls, same characters, similar stages. I mean, sure, on meele you do certain combos and stuff, but its is not as different as with sc2 and Bw, in both meele and 4, if you press b, with mario and mario on both games, it will do the exact same thing, whereas bw and sc are way way different, different units, different macro mechanics, different economy, group controls, pathing,etc etc. So what i meant is that, yeah, maybe on meele theres l cancel and a bunch of other cool stuff, but the core game is not that different, so skill translate very well, and from an spectator point of view (and with this i mean not a super hardcore quasi-pro gamer) the game doesn't look much different. So, if instead of playing smash, just because is a little better or so they say, they played sm4sh, it could be very benefficial to the scene, first of all, nintendo would support them more, then, since the game just came out a lot of people would say "hey smash 4? thats cool i can check it out" instead of saying "meele? people still play that thing? it was cool but man, grow up". Theres also online, and altough it isn't great, its better than nothing, and in general it has just way more ways to get into it than meele. Like, if i want to play meele i need to get the game, get a gamecube/wii, get a CRT, and some controllers to play a 15 year old game? Maybe you can buy a PC adaptor, but thats not really the game itself For me, as a casual it would simply be better to just go and get a wii u, which then i could use to buy more cool games like zelda or through the e-shop. Just think about it, for someone to get into meele right now, you would have to like it a lot, or get into the scene because of a friend, whereas with sm4sh, getting into the scene would be way way easier, making the scene grow even more than what meele is achieving right now. Now don't get me wrong, even if im not a hardcore smash esport fan, i like it and im amazed at the fact that the scene is still somewhat healthy even with all these difficulties, but i think, purely as an e-sport buissness perspective, that the scene could grow much much much much more, if they went to sm4ash, even if it is a "worse game". There's a reason more people signed up for Melee than Smash 4 in Apex this year. From a competative standpoint, Melee is just better in every way. It's funner to play, it's faster, it's better balanced. The scene will grow more from exciting matches, and that's what Melee provides over Brawl and 4. The differences aren't comparable to BW or SC2, since both are very much legit as esports. Smash 4 is not esports viable, Melee is. Think of it this way. When Sc2 came out, the starcraft scene didn't have to stick with it. If it had proven to be not playable at a competitive level, everyone would have switched back to BW. This is what happened with Brawl. Brawl was hyped up and was supposed to replace the Melee scene, until it came out and most people gave up on it in less than a year and went back to Melee. Smash 4 is very similar to Brawl, more so than it is to Melee. Melee is still far better. | ||
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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
The game is too similar to Brawl. Low skill ceiling, little/no advanced tech, slow/floaty characters, super forgiving gameplay... The game will have no longevity. It's a 2 year title at best. A downloadable HD re-release of Melee would cement that game a a core esport title for years to come. It would solve all the accessibility problems you just mentioned. I think the best thing Smash 4 will do for eSports is make more casuals aware of the melee scene. | ||
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feardragon
United States973 Posts
On January 21 2015 04:01 MrBitter wrote: Honestly, as someone who works on the business side of eSports, I do not think investing in Smash 4 makes sense. The game is too similar to Brawl. Low skill ceiling, little/no advanced tech, slow/floaty characters, super forgiving gameplay... The game will have no longevity. It's a 2 year title at best. A downloadable HD re-release of Melee would cement that game a a core esport title for years to come. It would solve all the accessibility problems you just mentioned. I think the best thing Smash 4 will do for eSports is make more casuals aware of the melee scene. While I get the sentiment behind this, the game just barely came out. Players thought Starcraft 2 was a shallow game within 3-5 months of it coming out and that it was "figured out" fast because of all the existing players from bw working on it. Melee was a LOT slower years ago because people didn't know about L-Canceling, etc. Heck, there were even things people DID know about but didn't think were useful for years...like wavedashing. The point being, I think it's far too early to make huge jugements about the game. Most of what made Melee what it is today are the intricacies that were discovered over time, not the initial interpertation of players. Brawl gets a lot of hate but if a game has a low skill ceiling, then there should be a large number of players eventually hitting that skill ceiling and it should be pretty "rng" on who ends up winning right? But even in Brawl, there are consistent victors and winners at the top level. The game is still developing, even with Smash 4 out and very few people left playing it intensely. I can understand if you say there's a perception that the skill ceiling is low so there's going to be less interest in the game. But I think history has shown that in general we're all pretty bad judges of what games have a lot of depth once you pass a certain level of complexity in the game. | ||
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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
On January 21 2015 04:29 feardragon wrote: While I get the sentiment behind this, the game just barely came out. Players thought Starcraft 2 was a shallow game within 3-5 months of it coming out and that it was "figured out" fast because of all the existing players from bw working on it. Melee was a LOT slower years ago because people didn't know about L-Canceling, etc. Heck, there were even things people DID know about but didn't think were useful for years...like wavedashing. The point being, I think it's far too early to make huge jugements about the game. Most of what made Melee what it is today are the intricacies that were discovered over time, not the initial interpertation of players. Brawl gets a lot of hate but if a game has a low skill ceiling, then there should be a large number of players eventually hitting that skill ceiling and it should be pretty "rng" on who ends up winning right? But even in Brawl, there are consistent victors and winners at the top level. The game is still developing, even with Smash 4 out and very few people left playing it intensely. I can understand if you say there's a perception that the skill ceiling is low so there's going to be less interest in the game. But I think history has shown that in general we're all pretty bad judges of what games have a lot of depth once you pass a certain level of complexity in the game. edit: quoted the wrong quote I don't disagree with you in principal, but to come back to the analogy of SC2 and BW, let's ask ourselves this: Which scene is growing right now? Broodwar is back on TV in Korea for the first time in years. There's a $40k tournament on going right now. New players, teams and leagues are appearing as we speak. There's a lot to be said for these timeless titles. Smash. BW. CS is another great example. It took a looong time for 1.6 to be dethroned. It outlived many new generations, including all of source. It wasn't until Valve finally caved and said "fine, let's talk to the pros and make the game they want" that CS:GO started gaining traction as an esport. | ||
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scDeluX
Canada1341 Posts
Also smash 4 is boring to watch because it does not reward agression like melee does. | ||
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]343[
United States10328 Posts
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Wertheron
France439 Posts
On January 21 2015 04:36 MrBitter wrote: edit: quoted the wrong quote I don't disagree with you in principal, but to come back to the analogy of SC2 and BW, let's ask ourselves this: Which scene is growing right now? Broodwar is back on TV in Korea for the first time in years. There's a $40k tournament on going right now. New players, teams and leagues are appearing as we speak. There's a lot to be said for these timeless titles. Smash. BW. CS is another great example. It took a looong time for 1.6 to be dethroned. It outlived many new generations, including all of source. It wasn't until Valve finally caved and said "fine, let's talk to the pros and make the game they want" that CS:GO started gaining traction as an esport. SC2 is not dead, and some of us are still here, thank you. | ||
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